Vbox Win7 Pro on latest CPUs?

[Sailfish]

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro
performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen
9000 series?

My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find
replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade
to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my
primary system.

Thoughts?

[Auric__]

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro
performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen
9000 series?

No, but I imagine judicious googling might turn up something. But I emulate
Win7 under VMware on my 11-year-old i5-4570 workstation without noticeable
slowdown. (But I don't game or do other processor-intensive stuff there.)

Post by Sailfish
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find
replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade
to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my
primary system.
Thoughts?

Dated hardware doesn't mean useless. If it fails, then consider upgrading,
but otherwise [shrug] if it works, why bother?

My current machines:
- 2014(?) HP laptop running Win10, works flawlessly.
- Mid-to-late-2013 Intel i5-4570 running Win10, works flawlessly.
- 2013 Q2 AMD A10-5800K running Linux, works flawlessly.
- 2012 tablet with a smashed screen that runs Win7. (Works as a computer.)
- 2007 iMac, only issue is a dead HDD.
- 2006 ThinkPad running Linux, works flawlessly.
- 2002 Mac, works flawlessly.
- 1997 Sony Vaio (Pentium II) running Windows 95, works flawlessly.

Note that the newest is around 10 years old. (I have a 2024 HP laptop but it
belongs to my client.)

(Yes, I use all of those, with more in storage if needed. Yay programming.)

[Sailfish]

Post by Auric__

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro
performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen
9000 series?

No, but I imagine judicious googling might turn up something. But I emulate
Win7 under VMware on my 11-year-old i5-4570 workstation without noticeable
slowdown. (But I don't game or do other processor-intensive stuff there.)

Post by Sailfish
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find
replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade
to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my
primary system.
Thoughts?

Dated hardware doesn't mean useless. If it fails, then consider upgrading,
but otherwise [shrug] if it works, why bother?
- 2014(?) HP laptop running Win10, works flawlessly.
- Mid-to-late-2013 Intel i5-4570 running Win10, works flawlessly.
- 2013 Q2 AMD A10-5800K running Linux, works flawlessly.
- 2012 tablet with a smashed screen that runs Win7. (Works as a computer.)
- 2007 iMac, only issue is a dead HDD.
- 2006 ThinkPad running Linux, works flawlessly.
- 2002 Mac, works flawlessly.
- 1997 Sony Vaio (Pentium II) running Windows 95, works flawlessly.
Note that the newest is around 10 years old. (I have a 2024 HP laptop but it
belongs to my client.)
(Yes, I use all of those, with more in storage if needed. Yay programming.)

heh, that's way better than playing cribbage or MS Hearts to exercise
and keep one's neurons firing brightly.

I also have virtual Win-XP for playing some After Dark screen savers
that no longer work on Win7+ OSes.

I should have been more specific on outlining my need. I have some cpu
and graphic intensive programs I use (video gen, graphic apps and some
graphic intensive gaming such as Fallout, Witcher, Half-Life, &c).

Thanks

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 18:29:48 -0000 (UTC)
"Auric__" <***@email.address> wrote:

[]

Post by Auric__
- 1997 Sony Vaio (Pentium II) running Windows 95, works flawlessly.

[]

I doubt you use it for much internet browsing, though!

[Auric__]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 18:29:48 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Auric__
- 1997 Sony Vaio (Pentium II) running Windows 95, works flawlessly.

I doubt you use it for much internet browsing, though!

Got me there. No, I don't, partly because I don't have a NIC with Win9x
drivers (and I don't have a phone line to connect the modem to), partly
because I don't care to create an unintentional biohazard box, but mostly
because I (can) have internet on all of the more modern machines, so why
bother? :D

(...but transferring files to and from the Vaio is a real bitch...)

[Char Jackson]

On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:51:48 -0700, Sailfish

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro
performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen
9000 series?

I frequently run Win 7 Home, Pro, and Ultimate as VMs on a system with an Intel
i7-8700 CPU. As an 8th gen CPU, that's not exactly 'the latest' anymore, now
that they're up to about 12th gen, but it all works well enough that you'd never
suspect that it's a VM. I don't have a Ryzen system here, to use as a
comparison.

Post by Sailfish
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find
replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade
to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my
primary system.
Thoughts?

IMHO, you can certainly run a VM as a daily driver, so I'm not going to try to
talk you out of it.

[Sailfish]

Post by Char Jackson
On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:51:48 -0700, Sailfish

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro
performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen
9000 series?

I frequently run Win 7 Home, Pro, and Ultimate as VMs on a system with an Intel
i7-8700 CPU. As an 8th gen CPU, that's not exactly 'the latest' anymore, now
that they're up to about 12th gen, but it all works well enough that you'd never
suspect that it's a VM. I don't have a Ryzen system here, to use as a
comparison.

Post by Sailfish
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find
replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade
to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my
primary system.
Thoughts?

IMHO, you can certainly run a VM as a daily driver, so I'm not going to try to
talk you out of it.

Mine's an I7-6700K 6th gen. I actually have Win7-Ultimate and Win10
virtual machines on Vbox and for everyday tasks (browsing, MS Office,
&c) their performance is fine. However, I do some more CPU-intensive
work with video, graphics and games. I suppose, if my machine finally
gives up the ghost, I could use a native (non-virtual) Win10 system to
handle those programs.

[Paul]

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

Using SuperPI as a bench, VM was 7:33, Win11 Host was 6:43 .

[Picture]

Loading Image...

A lower number is better.

The more important question, is graphics acceleration inside the Guest.
Your new processor would be mondo-powerful, so any emulation of
graphics should be acceptably fast. While VirtualBox has "experimental 3D accel"
as a tick box, I haven't tested that in years. It's DirectX3D accel, so
LibreOffice OpenGL calls would not be accelerated if you ran LibreOffice
in the guest.

I don't know a test case that would suffice. There used to be
a nice 2D graphics bench excellent for the purpose... but I lost it :-/

It was from around 1997 or so.

*******

One other statement you have to take care with:

"I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system"

Can you ? NO.

They're cutting her loose. Win10 is in the dumper.
They're not supporting it on purpose, so I hope
you enjoy the quality of the display on Win11.

The motherboard I just got, is Win11 only. I don't
see a reason why this is not a synchronized facet
of computing (AMD and Intel cutting stuff loose at the
same time). You had better research that aspect carefully.
Maybe go for a higher res screen than normal. All
I've got is low-res screens here.

Paul

[Sailfish]

Post by Paul

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

Using SuperPI as a bench, VM was 7:33, Win11 Host was 6:43 .
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/SxpNf5qR/superpi-5700g-W11host-V7-Guest.gif
A lower number is better.
The more important question, is graphics acceleration inside the Guest.
Your new processor would be mondo-powerful, so any emulation of
graphics should be acceptably fast. While VirtualBox has "experimental 3D accel"
as a tick box, I haven't tested that in years. It's DirectX3D accel, so
LibreOffice OpenGL calls would not be accelerated if you ran LibreOffice
in the guest.
I don't know a test case that would suffice. There used to be
a nice 2D graphics bench excellent for the purpose... but I lost it :-/
It was from around 1997 or so.
*******
"I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system"
Can you ? NO.
They're cutting her loose. Win10 is in the dumper.
They're not supporting it on purpose, so I hope
you enjoy the quality of the display on Win11.
The motherboard I just got, is Win11 only. I don't
see a reason why this is not a synchronized facet
of computing (AMD and Intel cutting stuff loose at the
same time). You had better research that aspect carefully.
Maybe go for a higher res screen than normal. All
I've got is low-res screens here.

I really should have stated "I can upgrade to latest Windows on a new
system" (Note: as long as the newer mobos/BIOSes still support dual
boot.) I will still use Win7 as my primary preferred system but use
whatever the latest version of Windows for Win7+ needs, i.e., TurboTax,
gaming, browsers, &c.

[Sailfish]

Post by Sailfish

Post by Paul

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but
the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able
to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I
can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to
use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

Using SuperPI as a bench, VM was 7:33, Win11 Host was 6:43 .
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/SxpNf5qR/superpi-5700g-W11host-V7-Guest.gif
A lower number is better.
The more important question, is graphics acceleration inside the Guest.
Your new processor would be mondo-powerful, so any emulation of
graphics should be acceptably fast. While VirtualBox has "experimental 3D accel"
as a tick box, I haven't tested that in years. It's DirectX3D accel, so
LibreOffice OpenGL calls would not be accelerated if you ran LibreOffice
in the guest.
I don't know a test case that would suffice. There used to be
a nice 2D graphics bench excellent for the purpose... but I lost it :-/
It was from around 1997 or so.
*******
"I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system"
Can you ? NO.
They're cutting her loose. Win10 is in the dumper.
They're not supporting it on purpose, so I hope
you enjoy the quality of the display on Win11.
The motherboard I just got, is Win11 only. I don't
see a reason why this is not a synchronized facet
of computing (AMD and Intel cutting stuff loose at the
same time). You had better research that aspect carefully.
Maybe go for a higher res screen than normal. All
I've got is low-res screens here.

I really should have stated "I can upgrade to latest Windows on a new
system" (Note: as long as the newer mobos/BIOSes still support dual
boot.) I will still use Win7 as my primary preferred system but use
whatever the latest version of Windows for Win7+ needs, i.e., TurboTax,
gaming, browsers, &c.

Note to self: Self, refrain from posting on newsfeed (or any forum, for
that matter) in pre-dawn hours!

When I eventually upgrade to a newer machine, there won't be any reason
to need a dual environment in that, assuming vBox still allow hosting of
Win7. I would be nice though, if there would be a way to port my
existing Reflect Win7 backup to vBox to save having reinstall and
reorganize everything.

More thinking on this will be required.

[Paul]

Post by Paul

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

Using SuperPI as a bench, VM was 7:33, Win11 Host was 6:43 .
   [Picture]
    https://i.postimg.cc/SxpNf5qR/superpi-5700g-W11host-V7-Guest.gif
A lower number is better.
The more important question, is graphics acceleration inside the Guest.
Your new processor would be mondo-powerful, so any emulation of
graphics should be acceptably fast. While VirtualBox has "experimental 3D accel"
as a tick box, I haven't tested that in years. It's DirectX3D accel, so
LibreOffice OpenGL calls would not be accelerated if you ran LibreOffice
in the guest.
I don't know a test case that would suffice. There used to be
a nice 2D graphics bench excellent for the purpose... but I lost it :-/
It was from around 1997 or so.
*******
     "I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system"
Can you ? NO.
They're cutting her loose. Win10 is in the dumper.
They're not supporting it on purpose, so I hope
you enjoy the quality of the display on Win11.
The motherboard I just got, is Win11 only. I don't
see a reason why this is not a synchronized facet
of computing (AMD and Intel cutting stuff loose at the
same time). You had better research that aspect carefully.
Maybe go for a higher res screen than normal. All
I've got is low-res screens here.

I really should have stated "I can upgrade to latest Windows on a new system" (Note: as long as the newer mobos/BIOSes still support dual boot.) I will still use Win7 as my primary preferred system but use whatever the latest version of Windows for Win7+ needs, i.e., TurboTax, gaming, browsers, &c.

Note to self: Self, refrain from posting on newsfeed (or any forum, for that matter) in pre-dawn hours!
When I eventually upgrade to a newer machine, there won't be any reason to need a dual environment in that, assuming vBox still allow hosting of Win7. I would be nice though, if there would be a way to port my existing Reflect Win7 backup to vBox to save having reinstall and reorganize everything.
More thinking on this will be required.

You should be able to mount a VHD and restore into it.

[Picture]

Loading Image...

But some older versions of Macrium can provide a utility.
The only problem with doing it this way, is the container is the size of the
entire hard drive you started with. The bar bet method, you make the
container the size you want. Whether this is a good idea, also
depends on whether the disk is MBR or GPT. Doing it the bar bet way,
is dangerous for a GPT disk, as the secondary table up the end, Macrium
may not treat it correctly. You have to check later.

Whereas this tool is foolproof. Reflect 8 or Reflect 7 might not have this.
While it was removed, for "full" backups (uncomplicated cases), this still
works. I cannot attest to how this handles an incremental. Compared to
the above example, this will make C: come back without defragmenting it.
The reason it is fragmented, is the source drive was an SSD. You
don't defrag those. Although from command line, you could do "defrag.exe C: "
if you wanted to make it do that, anyway.

Name: ImgToVHD.exe
Size: 2481408 bytes (2423 KiB)

*******

Don't forget that old Windows OSes, hate to see a hardware change
underneath them. Restoring your licensed machine into a VM, it's
going to have some kind of shit-fit :-)

We rely on your skill and cunning to fix this :-) Sir.

This would not be difficult to do at all -- if the OS did not freeze
in its new home. When the OS freezes and you cannot feed it any commands,
it's rather hard to fix it. You COULD fix it in offline mode, except
not all commands work in an offline mode. If you've been working on
Windows for any amount of time, you have likely been treated rudely
by the OS in the past, so this should not come as a surprise. The freezing.
Your choices are: immediate freeze, 72 hours grace, 30 days grace.
You cannot predict what will happen. I did not see a strong pattern.

Windows 10 and Windows 11 can be moved. Period. They are different.

Not sure about Win8. Haven't tried (yet). My Win 8 was a System Builder,
so it should not support being moved.

This could be loads of fun.

Paul

[John B. Smith]

Post by Paul

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

Using SuperPI as a bench, VM was 7:33, Win11 Host was 6:43 .
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/SxpNf5qR/superpi-5700g-W11host-V7-Guest.gif
A lower number is better.
The more important question, is graphics acceleration inside the Guest.
Your new processor would be mondo-powerful, so any emulation of
graphics should be acceptably fast. While VirtualBox has "experimental 3D accel"
as a tick box, I haven't tested that in years. It's DirectX3D accel, so
LibreOffice OpenGL calls would not be accelerated if you ran LibreOffice
in the guest.
I don't know a test case that would suffice. There used to be
a nice 2D graphics bench excellent for the purpose... but I lost it :-/
It was from around 1997 or so.
*******
"I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system"
Can you ? NO.
They're cutting her loose. Win10 is in the dumper.
They're not supporting it on purpose, so I hope
you enjoy the quality of the display on Win11.
The motherboard I just got, is Win11 only. I don't
see a reason why this is not a synchronized facet
of computing (AMD and Intel cutting stuff loose at the
same time). You had better research that aspect carefully.
Maybe go for a higher res screen than normal. All
I've got is low-res screens here.
Paul

I've noticed that many of the motherboards I've been browsing thru say
'Win10 or 11 only'. I don't understand? If I had your 'Win11 only'
machine at my disposal, and if I hung my boot drive from my current
computer on it, would it not boot xp and win7? If not why not?

I know that these OS's would be unlicensed on your 'loaner' machine,
but I would think they'd boot and run 'somewhat'. I'm still dreaming
of building a new computer, but not being able to run xp, where I have
software that won't run on any other Windows, is kind of a deal
breaker.

[Paul]

Post by John B. Smith

Post by Paul

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

Using SuperPI as a bench, VM was 7:33, Win11 Host was 6:43 .
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/SxpNf5qR/superpi-5700g-W11host-V7-Guest.gif
A lower number is better.
The more important question, is graphics acceleration inside the Guest.
Your new processor would be mondo-powerful, so any emulation of
graphics should be acceptably fast. While VirtualBox has "experimental 3D accel"
as a tick box, I haven't tested that in years. It's DirectX3D accel, so
LibreOffice OpenGL calls would not be accelerated if you ran LibreOffice
in the guest.
I don't know a test case that would suffice. There used to be
a nice 2D graphics bench excellent for the purpose... but I lost it :-/
It was from around 1997 or so.
*******
"I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system"
Can you ? NO.
They're cutting her loose. Win10 is in the dumper.
They're not supporting it on purpose, so I hope
you enjoy the quality of the display on Win11.
The motherboard I just got, is Win11 only. I don't
see a reason why this is not a synchronized facet
of computing (AMD and Intel cutting stuff loose at the
same time). You had better research that aspect carefully.
Maybe go for a higher res screen than normal. All
I've got is low-res screens here.
Paul

I've noticed that many of the motherboards I've been browsing thru say
'Win10 or 11 only'. I don't understand? If I had your 'Win11 only'
machine at my disposal, and if I hung my boot drive from my current
computer on it, would it not boot xp and win7? If not why not?
I know that these OS's would be unlicensed on your 'loaner' machine,
but I would think they'd boot and run 'somewhat'. I'm still dreaming
of building a new computer, but not being able to run xp, where I have
software that won't run on any other Windows, is kind of a deal
breaker.

W10 and W11 can install the drivers for you.

W10 runs on my X79. But the last time I clean installed there,
the X79 drivers did not come from catalog.update.microsoft.com .
This does not affect the function of the machine, it's just
a cosmetic issue. And... it's also unnecessary. Nothing says
drivers have to be pulled before the end-of-support for an OS.

That particular set of drivers, is mostly a descriptive text string
for each chipset logic block entry. Once defined, the items fold
back and don't take up space in Device Manager.

I don't know what other W10 drivers have gone missing or will
go missing. That's the shitty part.

A lot of the time, you can find the drivers elsewhere, but
you do want to chase down "trusted" places they are stored.
One of the risks with this kind of shitty treatment, is people
start fetching the drivers they need from the Hamburger Helper
website. And who knows what is inside the installer when you do that.

I think I also had to hunt down a video driver. The OS insisted
on keeping its Microsoft Basic Display Adapter, and the manufacturer site
still had what I needed. The card worked, whereas when I tested the
same video card in Linux, I got a "random pattern" frozen on the
screen, and the screen would not update (Nouveau). But I know the card is fine,
because Windows works. But only, if you hunt down the driver that is
no longer in catalog.update.microsoft.com . I'm pretty sure it was
there, because I had Win10 on my P5E motherboard (Core2 Duo), before
the motherboard Southbridge died on it.

Paul

[Joe Public]

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to
find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can
upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use
Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

What is so special about Windows 7? Any thing below Windows 11 are no
longer supported by Microsoft. Even Windows 10 only receives critical
security updates but new features are never added to it. Windows 10
reaches EOL next year so just move on to Windows 11 and start using it
so that you get used to the new way of doing things on Windows.

The alternative is to install Linux on any new machine you decide to buy
or build if you don't want to use any of the latest features of Windows.
Linux  Ubuntu version 20.04 will just work on any new machines you
build. Ideally one should use latest Linux version but as you are
allergic to new things you can continue using Ubuntu 20.04.

You can always find replacement hardware on eBay because they have many
small traders selling second-hand stuff and items stolen from peoples
houses. eBay is a good place to sell stolen goods although they have now
become very strict about tax registration and all that.

[Sailfish]

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to
find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can
upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use
Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

What is so special about Windows 7? Any thing below Windows 11 are no
longer supported by Microsoft. Even Windows 10 only receives critical
security updates but new features are never added to it. Windows 10
reaches EOL next year so just move on to Windows 11 and start using it
so that you get used to the new way of doing things on Windows.

I really didn't want to have this thread devolve into a "Why Win7 over
Win 10/11?" so I'll just state that Win7 UI is much more appealing to
power users, where as, Microsoft has made access to system level
features in Win10/11 much more obscure. I understand why they did it,
i.e. to reduce lo-tech consumers from getting themselves in trouble but
it's bothersome to me. Also, I enjoy the aesthetic GUI of Aero desktop
and skeuomorphic icons, including rounded corners and transparency over
the lifeless look of flat-design ... to name but a few.

Post by Joe Public
The alternative is to install Linux on any new machine you decide to buy
or build if you don't want to use any of the latest features of Windows.
Linux Ubuntu version 20.04 will just work on any new machines you
build. Ideally one should use latest Linux version but as you are
allergic to new things you can continue using Ubuntu 20.04.

Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as
other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

Post by Joe Public
You can always find replacement hardware on eBay because they have many
small traders selling second-hand stuff and items stolen from peoples
houses. eBay is a good place to sell stolen goods although they have now
become very strict about tax registration and all that.

And, I will rely on that until I can't.

[Paul]

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

What is so special about Windows 7? Any thing below Windows 11 are no longer supported by Microsoft. Even Windows 10 only receives critical security updates but new features are never added to it. Windows 10 reaches EOL next year so just move on to Windows 11 and start using it so that you get used to the new way of doing things on Windows.

I really didn't want to have this thread devolve into a "Why Win7 over Win 10/11?" so I'll just state that Win7 UI is much more appealing to power users, where as, Microsoft has made access to system level features in Win10/11 much more obscure. I understand why they did it, i.e. to reduce lo-tech consumers from getting themselves in trouble but it's bothersome to me. Also, I enjoy the aesthetic GUI of Aero desktop and skeuomorphic icons, including rounded corners and transparency over the lifeless look of flat-design ... to name but a few.

The alternative is to install Linux on any new machine you decide to buy or build if you don't want to use any of the latest features of Windows. Linux  Ubuntu version 20.04 will just work on any new machines you build. Ideally one should use latest Linux version but as you are allergic to new things you can continue using Ubuntu 20.04.

Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

You can always find replacement hardware on eBay because they have many small traders selling second-hand stuff and items stolen from peoples houses. eBay is a good place to sell stolen goods although they have now become very strict about tax registration and all that.

And, I will rely on that until I can't.

After a little more testing, my conclusion about Windows 7 in
a VM, is that it "fails" at graphics compatibility. I don't
know how happy you'll be if you tried to game in there for example.
Two 3DMark benchmarks loaded in there, bombed, so I didn't
even get treated to some graphics. And "winsat formal" also
mis-behaved.

When I ran GPU-Z in there, all the fields remained blank.

Maybe this is why I don't try to test the graphics in Guest environments.

I may be reduced to finding that Windows copy of GLXGears :-)

Paul

[Sailfish]

Post by Paul

Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

What is so special about Windows 7? Any thing below Windows 11 are no longer supported by Microsoft. Even Windows 10 only receives critical security updates but new features are never added to it. Windows 10 reaches EOL next year so just move on to Windows 11 and start using it so that you get used to the new way of doing things on Windows.

I really didn't want to have this thread devolve into a "Why Win7 over Win 10/11?" so I'll just state that Win7 UI is much more appealing to power users, where as, Microsoft has made access to system level features in Win10/11 much more obscure. I understand why they did it, i.e. to reduce lo-tech consumers from getting themselves in trouble but it's bothersome to me. Also, I enjoy the aesthetic GUI of Aero desktop and skeuomorphic icons, including rounded corners and transparency over the lifeless look of flat-design ... to name but a few.

The alternative is to install Linux on any new machine you decide to buy or build if you don't want to use any of the latest features of Windows. Linux Ubuntu version 20.04 will just work on any new machines you build. Ideally one should use latest Linux version but as you are allergic to new things you can continue using Ubuntu 20.04.

Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

You can always find replacement hardware on eBay because they have many small traders selling second-hand stuff and items stolen from peoples houses. eBay is a good place to sell stolen goods although they have now become very strict about tax registration and all that.

And, I will rely on that until I can't.

After a little more testing, my conclusion about Windows 7 in
a VM, is that it "fails" at graphics compatibility. I don't
know how happy you'll be if you tried to game in there for example.
Two 3DMark benchmarks loaded in there, bombed, so I didn't
even get treated to some graphics. And "winsat formal" also
mis-behaved.
When I ran GPU-Z in there, all the fields remained blank.
Maybe this is why I don't try to test the graphics in Guest environments.
I may be reduced to finding that Windows copy of GLXGears :-)

Yes, there's another big reason I'll not be able to use Win7 for gaming
in the future, at least newer games, they are now longer compatible on
Win7. That's why I have a dual boot system, Boot 1: Win7, Boot 2: Win10.
Thus, when I purchase new games, I'll need to boot in Win10 to play them.

Since gaming is a enjoyable diversion for me and not my primary use of
the system, having to boot into Win10 to play them is not a big deal.

[Joe Public]

Post by Sailfish
Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as
other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

You didn't understand my post. I never said anything about Wine in
Linux. Read my original post again.

I only said to install Linux on your new machine AND vBox in that new
machine (Linux version). Then you can install Windows 7, 8.1, 10 or 11
in vBox in Linux. That's wonderful don't you think so?

This way you have multiple systems on a new machine assuming you'll have
at least 16GB ram and enough disk space for multiple systems and related
Apps that you intend to use. People have always used Windows 7 in vBox.
You might need to download the old version of vBox from the archive but
Windows can run in vBox in Linux. You can also use copy/Paste between
systems if you enable GuestAdditions with appropriate configurations.

I suggest ask people in Linux newsgroups or Forums how they are doing
and which version of vBox is needed to run Windows 7.

[Sailfish]

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as
other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

You didn't understand my post. I never said anything about Wine in
Linux. Read my original post again.
I only said to install Linux on your new machine AND vBox in that new
machine (Linux version). Then you can install Windows 7, 8.1, 10 or 11
in vBox in Linux. That's wonderful don't you think so?
This way you have multiple systems on a new machine assuming you'll have
at least 16GB ram and enough disk space for multiple systems and related
Apps that you intend to use. People have always used Windows 7 in vBox.
You might need to download the old version of vBox from the archive but
Windows can run in vBox in Linux. You can also use copy/Paste between
systems if you enable GuestAdditions with appropriate configurations.
I suggest ask people in Linux newsgroups or Forums how they are doing
and which version of vBox is needed to run Windows 7.

ah, I did misunderstand your suggestion, sorry.

I'm still a bit unclear on the need to use Linux as my native OS and
vBox other Windows OSes machines from it. Assuming the new machine comes
with Win11, why wouldn't I just install vBox on Win11 and then install a
virtual Win7 machine on it?

Also, will Microsoft Win11 even install on a vBox environment due to
BIOS and TPM constraints? Note: I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.

I actually have Win7 Ultimate, Win10 and Linux machines on my existing
Win7 system.

[Paul]

Post by Sailfish

Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

You didn't understand my post. I never said anything about Wine in Linux. Read my original post again.
I only said to install Linux on your new machine AND vBox in that new machine (Linux version). Then you can install Windows 7, 8.1, 10 or 11 in vBox in Linux. That's wonderful don't you think so?
This way you have multiple systems on a new machine assuming you'll have at least 16GB ram and enough disk space for multiple systems and related Apps that you intend to use. People have always used Windows 7 in vBox. You might need to download the old version of vBox from the archive but Windows can run in vBox in Linux. You can also use copy/Paste between systems if you enable GuestAdditions with appropriate configurations.
I suggest ask people in Linux newsgroups or Forums how they are doing and which version of vBox is needed to run Windows 7.

ah, I did misunderstand your suggestion, sorry.
I'm still a bit unclear on the need to use Linux as my native OS and vBox other Windows OSes machines from it. Assuming the new machine comes with Win11, why wouldn't I just install vBox on Win11 and then install a virtual Win7 machine on it?
Also, will Microsoft Win11 even install on a vBox environment due to BIOS and TPM constraints? Note: I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.
I actually have Win7 Ultimate, Win10 and Linux machines on my existing Win7 system.

It can today. This might from a week ago or so.

[Picture] The VirtualBox 7.0.16 environment appears to use IBM "SWTPM" module, and not "TPM passthru"

Loading Image...

Host: Ubuntu 24.04 VirtualBox 7.0.16
Guest: W11

I haven't test that as W11-on-W11, like this:

Host: W11 VirtualBox 7.0.16
Guest: W11

but I don't see a reason why the
SWTPM would not be in the Windows version of 7.0.16 .

The VMWare I have on this machine, is my VMWare W11-on-W11 test case.
And it uses a SWTPM so that W11 Guest will install. The picture above,
is only my second W11 Guest. The VMWare was all by itself for quite a while.
The VMWare one is not recommended, because it forces VMWare encryption
(not Windows encryption) on your container *and the control file* .
Which is madness. You can't encrypt control files and expect a happy ending.
I nearly had a disaster with that. And a backup saved my ass (got a copy of
an older control file). I had to look under sofa cushions to find that
backup, I had a pretty worried look on my face for a bit. But I found a file,
and squeaked out of a mess. Not that this matters.

It's a good thing there is nothing important in these.

Paul

[Sailfish]

Post by Paul

Post by Sailfish

Linux is a excellent OS but its gaming support is limited as well as other Windows programs that won't work using WINE.

You didn't understand my post. I never said anything about Wine in Linux. Read my original post again.
I only said to install Linux on your new machine AND vBox in that new machine (Linux version). Then you can install Windows 7, 8.1, 10 or 11 in vBox in Linux. That's wonderful don't you think so?
This way you have multiple systems on a new machine assuming you'll have at least 16GB ram and enough disk space for multiple systems and related Apps that you intend to use. People have always used Windows 7 in vBox. You might need to download the old version of vBox from the archive but Windows can run in vBox in Linux. You can also use copy/Paste between systems if you enable GuestAdditions with appropriate configurations.
I suggest ask people in Linux newsgroups or Forums how they are doing and which version of vBox is needed to run Windows 7.

ah, I did misunderstand your suggestion, sorry.
I'm still a bit unclear on the need to use Linux as my native OS and vBox other Windows OSes machines from it. Assuming the new machine comes with Win11, why wouldn't I just install vBox on Win11 and then install a virtual Win7 machine on it?
Also, will Microsoft Win11 even install on a vBox environment due to BIOS and TPM constraints? Note: I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.
I actually have Win7 Ultimate, Win10 and Linux machines on my existing Win7 system.

It can today. This might from a week ago or so.
[Picture] The VirtualBox 7.0.16 environment appears to use IBM "SWTPM" module, and not "TPM passthru"
https://i.postimg.cc/CxG6Fn2P/W11-VBOX7-on-Ubuntu2404-Disk31.gif
Host: Ubuntu 24.04 VirtualBox 7.0.16
Guest: W11
Host: W11 VirtualBox 7.0.16
Guest: W11
but I don't see a reason why the
SWTPM would not be in the Windows version of 7.0.16 .
The VMWare I have on this machine, is my VMWare W11-on-W11 test case.
And it uses a SWTPM so that W11 Guest will install. The picture above,
is only my second W11 Guest. The VMWare was all by itself for quite a while.
The VMWare one is not recommended, because it forces VMWare encryption
(not Windows encryption) on your container *and the control file* .
Which is madness. You can't encrypt control files and expect a happy ending.
I nearly had a disaster with that. And a backup saved my ass (got a copy of
an older control file). I had to look under sofa cushions to find that
backup, I had a pretty worried look on my face for a bit. But I found a file,
and squeaked out of a mess. Not that this matters.
It's a good thing there is nothing important in these.

Starring this for later reference.

Cheers

[Joe Public]

Post by Sailfish
I'm still a bit unclear on the need to use Linux as my native OS and
vBox other Windows OSes machines from it. Assuming the new machine
comes with Win11, why wouldn't I just install vBox on Win11 and then
install a virtual Win7 machine on it?

Of course you can do everything in Windows 11 but the OP doesn't like
Windows 10 or Windows 11. I'm not sure if he has tried to use but he
doesn't like so the alternative was given to use old ubuntu 20.04. For
some people old products were better. Personally I always use latest
versions because I am curious and eager to learn new ways of doing things.

Post by Sailfish
Also, will Microsoft Win11 even install on a vBox environment due to
BIOS and TPM constraints? Note: I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.

Latest version of vbox will without fiddling but old versions can
install as well but you need to upload a small (3kb) ISO file with
windows 11 ISO in vbox. I can give you the instructions with pictures if
you want to do this. I'm using Windows 11 here with vbox version 6.1.50

Post by Sailfish
I actually have Win7 Ultimate, Win10 and Linux machines on my existing
Win7 system.

That's a good start. Get Windows 11 23H2 as well before it is removed
from Microsoft website. When 24H2 is released, Microsoft will remove
23H2 and you will scramble searching for it. I keep all versions stored
in external flash drive. You never know old versions can come handy
sometimes.

[Paul]

Post by Joe Public
That's a good start. Get Windows 11 23H2 as well before it is removed
from Microsoft website. When 24H2 is released, Microsoft will remove
23H2 and you will scramble searching for it. I keep all versions stored
in external flash drive. You never know old versions can come handy
sometimes.

You are of course, aware that Windows 11 can be using
*three* different means to display fonts at any one
time on the screen.

What does that tell you ?

It tells you that somebody needs to get a plan, for a start.
The third font is coming from WinXP dialogs on the W11 screen.

The screen looks like ass.

It seems to be a campaign to sell 4K monitors. Maybe someone
else can comment on W11 and 4K LCD, to give us an idea
whether the screen appearance is acceptable that way.
I have no 4K screens here. Biggest I have is 1920x1080.

I keep a folder on my SSD, with all the DVDs. I have about
eight USB sticks I can use for installs, and it's hard to keep
track of them. Writing on the label doesn't help. It can
say Windows on the label, and have a copy of Mint on it :-)

Paul

[Sailfish]

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
I'm still a bit unclear on the need to use Linux as my native OS and
vBox other Windows OSes machines from it. Assuming the new machine
comes with Win11, why wouldn't I just install vBox on Win11 and then
install a virtual Win7 machine on it?

Of course you can do everything in Windows 11 but the OP doesn't like
Windows 10 or Windows 11. I'm not sure if he has tried to use but he
doesn't like so the alternative was given to use old ubuntu 20.04. For
some people old products were better. Personally I always use latest
versions because I am curious and eager to learn new ways of doing things.

heh, I'm the OP :-) While I prefer Win7, I understand that I'll need
Win10/11 in order to use updated software and gaming, so I don't mind
having it as the boot OS for when I need to. My intent is to invoke Vbox
Win7 machine after bootup, though.

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
Also, will Microsoft Win11 even install on a vBox environment due to
BIOS and TPM constraints? Note: I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.

Latest version of vbox will without fiddling but old versions can
install as well but you need to upload a small (3kb) ISO file with
windows 11 ISO in vbox. I can give you the instructions with pictures if
you want to do this. I'm using Windows 11 here with vbox version 6.1.50

Good to know, thanks.

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
I actually have Win7 Ultimate, Win10 and Linux machines on my existing
Win7 system.

That's a good start. Get Windows 11 23H2 as well before it is removed
from Microsoft website. When 24H2 is released, Microsoft will remove
23H2 and you will scramble searching for it. I keep all versions stored
in external flash drive. You never know old versions can come handy
sometimes.

Will do.

[Sailfish]

Post by Sailfish

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
I'm still a bit unclear on the need to use Linux as my native OS and
vBox other Windows OSes machines from it. Assuming the new machine
comes with Win11, why wouldn't I just install vBox on Win11 and then
install a virtual Win7 machine on it?

Of course you can do everything in Windows 11 but the OP doesn't like
Windows 10 or Windows 11. I'm not sure if he has tried to use but he
doesn't like so the alternative was given to use old ubuntu 20.04. For
some people old products were better. Personally I always use latest
versions because I am curious and eager to learn new ways of doing things.

heh, I'm the OP :-) While I prefer Win7, I understand that I'll need
Win10/11 in order to use updated software and gaming, so I don't mind
having it as the boot OS for when I need to. My intent is to invoke Vbox
Win7 machine after bootup, though.

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
Also, will Microsoft Win11 even install on a vBox environment due to
BIOS and TPM constraints? Note: I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.

Latest version of vbox will without fiddling but old versions can
install as well but you need to upload a small (3kb) ISO file with
windows 11 ISO in vbox. I can give you the instructions with pictures
if you want to do this. I'm using Windows 11 here with vbox version
6.1.50

Good to know, thanks.

Post by Joe Public

Post by Sailfish
I actually have Win7 Ultimate, Win10 and Linux machines on my
existing Win7 system.

That's a good start. Get Windows 11 23H2 as well before it is removed
from Microsoft website. When 24H2 is released, Microsoft will remove
23H2 and you will scramble searching for it. I keep all versions
stored in external flash drive. You never know old versions can come
handy sometimes.

Will do.

tl;dr
I was able to download and install Win11 on my Win7 Pro Box and it
appears to be working. To test it thoroughly, I'll need to acquire a
license but the basic desktop displayed and intrinsic features such as
Control Panel, Accounts, &c are available.

Before attempting to install the Win11 iso, I decided to upgrade vBox to
latest level, as of this writing: v7.0.20 and was eventually graced with
the following error message:
//
"The chosen installation directory is invalid, as it does not meet the
security requirements."
//
After searching, I finally discovered that somewhere after vBox 7.0.6,
Oracle no longer allow a user to install vBox on any folder not on the
"C:\Program Files" folder/directory limd, for security concerns. This
was a problem since I only use my C: SSD drive for Windows system files
and install all other programs on a different, much larger, disc volume.
This included my existing vBox installation.

I was able to find a kludge that would allow me to upgrade to my
existing non-C: drive volume using a Windows Junction link (what *Nix
folks refer to as a soft link).

Still, I decided to skip the kludge and just go back to my previous vBox
release v.7.0.6 and everything installed swimmingly.

References to all the above can be found at:
https://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/22044

and the workaround is discussed in comment 24

fwiw

[Java Jive]

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7 Pro
performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as Ryzen
9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to find
replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can upgrade
to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use Win7 as my
primary system.
Thoughts?

It's not what you're asking but you may care to read a thread here begun
by me on 2024-06-04 (ISO) entitled "In Case You Need To Re-install W7
From Scratch". Basically, if you have a working product key you can
still, or at least you could as recently as the beginning of June,
rebuild a machine with W7 and get the entirety of the upgrades and
updates. [My reason for doing it was to create a usable reasonably
modern build to drive an old scanner for which I can't get 64-bit
drivers - I have other better scanners, but that's the only one I have
from which I can entirely remove the lid to do large documents in
sections for stitching the sections together.]

However, for 'indefinitely into the future' you'd probably be advised to
get the updates as stand-alone files and store them somewhere, and of
course there may come a day when you can't get hardware drivers, AV
software, or up-to-date safe browsers.

[Bill Bradshaw]

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to
find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can
upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use
Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

I run Windows 10 Pro and absolutely did not like the interface. I do not
need my computer looking like a cellphone. Installed Open Shell and my
Windows 10 computer looks just like Windows 7. People look it and ask why I
am running Windows 7 even though it is running Windows 10.

[Java Jive]

Post by Bill Bradshaw

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to
find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can
upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use
Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

I run Windows 10 Pro and absolutely did not like the interface. I do not
need my computer looking like a cellphone. Installed Open Shell and my
Windows 10 computer looks just like Windows 7. People look it and ask why I
am running Windows 7 even though it is running Windows 10.

Yeahbut ... Unfortunately the GUI is not the whole story ...

Background processes running:

Trimmed down XP: 26
Trimmed down W7: 39 (inc 6 NVidia services for the Gfx card)
As installed W10: 133 (inc 5 MS Edge processes when Edge isn't open, and
after disabling 18 services before even counting, making 151 in total!)

So, if you upgrade a PC that is working reasonably well under W7, like
as not it'll be a slow bitch running W10/11.

And then there are all the job's worth security restrictions that do so
much to make W10/11 an exasperating PITA for a power user.

[Paul]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to
find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can
upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use
Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

I run Windows 10 Pro and absolutely did not like the interface.  I do not
need my computer looking like a cellphone.  Installed Open Shell and my
Windows 10 computer looks just like Windows 7.  People look it and ask why I
am running Windows 7 even though it is running Windows 10.

Yeahbut ... Unfortunately the GUI is not the whole story ...
Trimmed down XP:   26
Trimmed down W7:   39 (inc 6 NVidia services for the Gfx card)
As installed W10: 133 (inc 5 MS Edge processes when Edge isn't open, and after disabling 18 services before even counting, making 151 in total!)
So, if you upgrade a PC that is working reasonably well under W7, like as not it'll be a slow bitch running W10/11.
And then there are all the job's worth security restrictions that do so much to make W10/11 an exasperating PITA for a power user.

If you check cycle counts, a lot of the things you see in there
are "functionally moribund". They're not sucking cycles. They
don't run in polled mode. They speak when spoken to, which is
not often. (Sysinternals Process Explorer can show this stuff.)
What a lot of the SVCHOSTs do, is waste RAM. That's it.

There are other mysterious things you should study in there.
If I start one of my rants, the charge will be $1 :-)

Paul

[Sailfish]

Post by Bill Bradshaw

Post by Sailfish
Anyone know of tests that have been made on the performance of Win7
Pro performance running as virtual machine with latest CPUs such as
Ryzen 9000 series?
My existing Win7 Pro system's performance is fine for my needs but the
mobo and cpu are dated and my concern is whether I might be able to
find replacement hardware in the case of failure. Worst case, I can
upgrade to Win10 on a new system but would prefer to continue to use
Win7 as my primary system.
Thoughts?

I run Windows 10 Pro and absolutely did not like the interface. I do not
need my computer looking like a cellphone. Installed Open Shell and my
Windows 10 computer looks just like Windows 7. People look it and ask why I
am running Windows 7 even though it is running Windows 10.

Agree. I have Win10 installed as 2nd OS on my dual boot system since I
need it for running some software (like browsers and Steam) that have
legacied Win7 but, for the most part, Win 7 is my go to system.