Discussion:
USB to PS2 adaptors
(too old to reply)
John B. Smith
2024-05-11 00:41:04 UTC
Permalink
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Paul
2024-05-11 02:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
If a mouse is dual-mode, it comes with a green adapter in the box.
The adapter is a passive adapter, just wires inside. The manufacturer
does not usually "hide" the fact it is dual mode and can use a passive adapter.
This is why, you don't buy the passive thing, unless the box had an
identical passive and you lost the original green one. My Logitech mouse
is dual mode and came with a passive adapter in the box. The green adapter
is sitting right in front of me, on the "trinket row".

The mouse figures out whether the wires currently speak USB
protocol or whether the wires speak PS/2 clock-with-data.
Instead of D+ and D-, it might check to see if one is DATA, the other CLK.

VCC USB 5V system, strap resistors to D+, D- for signaling
D+
D-
GND

Pin 1 +DATA Keyboard Data [I could have done a better
Pin 2 Mouse Data on split-color connector job on this table, and I really
Pin 3 GND Ground should have made three tables,
Pin 4 Vcc +5 V DC at 275 mA one table for Mouse, one for Keyboard,
Pin 5 +CLK Keyboard Clock and then this Combo pinout for split-connector]
Pin 6 Mouse Clock on split-color connector 4 wires, 4 wires, 6 wires

*******

There are also USB (host end) to PS/2 (peripheral end) active adapters.
This would allow, say, a PS/2 protocol only keyboard to be used with a USB port.
The very first one of these had a firmware bug and stopped working
after precisely ten minutes. The chip had first layer programming
(permanent ROM) and could not be flashed. The manufacturer wanted
the cheapest chip possible, and the utter cheapness (cannot flash up) cost the
manufacturer around $250K in losses.

Later ones worked.

A variant, was someone made a PCI to USB2 addin card, and put a USB to PS/2 active
adapter on the card, so you could plug in a PS/2 device.

*******

Windows scans for USB mice, PS/2 mice, RS232 Serial mice.

For RS232 Serial mice there may be a "fast detect" setting
of some sort, which tells Windows to not look for a serial mouse.

When Windows 10 came out, I used to connect all three mouse
types, for fun. Early Windows 10 would detect two out of three
items. I think it used to do a decent job on RS232 serial mice.
Maybe the USB mouse would disappear sometimes. Later versions
of Win10, I no longer test for this (boring), but I think it
was eventually getting all three.

Windows 10 tried to speed up boot, by looking for items
this time, which were present the last time. This might have
been why, initially, the USB item went missing. Maybe the PS/2
was enumerated first, assume to be the "anointed one", and
this tended to rubbish attempts to get the other one to show up.
The philosophy at Microsoft may have changed at some point,
so that better detection on each cycle would (eventually) happen.

For storage, there are still cases where a driver is actually
missing and you screwed it up. If you cloned a SATA (OS) drive,
to an NVMe (using Macrium Rescue CD), then unplugged the SATA and
ran with the NVMe, it would print "inaccessible boot device"
and the boot would fail. You would need to boot the SATA,
while the NVMe was present, Windows would install the NVMe
driver on the SATA OS... then you'd clone over to the NVMe
and when it ran by itself, it finally had a driver to talk
to itself. While Windows has "a lotta drivers in the box",
there are still scenarios where the thing you think is
in place, isn't actually where it needs to be.

Paul
g***@aol.com
2024-05-11 04:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Like Paul said, all mice are not created equal. You need an old one
that swung both ways.
An easier fix is a USB hub to add extra ports. Just be sure to get a
USB3 if that is the port you want to expand. (blue looking inside the
port). A mouse won't care tho.
VanguardLH
2024-05-11 12:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
USB and PS2 are different hardware protocols. Unless the device itself
incorporates a hardware converter, a passive-only solution won't work
(i.e., just using cables). An active converter is required to convert
between the differing hardware protocols.

If the device says it is both USB and PS2 compatible, it can only use
the hardware protocol for which it was designed. A USB-only mouse works
only on a USB port, and a PS2-only mouse works only on a PS2 port. If
you want to use a mouse on either port type, you need to get a USB+PS2
compatible mouse. Else, you need to get an active converter that
performs the hardware translation required the cost of which usually
outweighs choosing to get a device that supports the port to which you
want to connect.

The wiring adapters you linked to at Amazon are passive devices. They
only do the wiring changeover. They are not active converters. That
means you need to use a device connected to them that does the hardware
conversion.

"Microsoft wired USB mouse" says nothing useful about the actual mouse.
No mention of model to determine if it supports both USB and PS2
connections. Look up the specifications of whatever mouse you have to
see which hardware protocols it supports. Go to the manufacturer's page
to get specs on your mouse. If it says USB+PS2 then you can use the
passive adapter you linked to. If it only mentions USB, it cannot be
used on a PS2 port unless an active converter is used to translate
between the different hardware protocols.
John B. Smith
2024-05-11 13:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
USB and PS2 are different hardware protocols. Unless the device itself
incorporates a hardware converter, a passive-only solution won't work
(i.e., just using cables). An active converter is required to convert
between the differing hardware protocols.
If the device says it is both USB and PS2 compatible, it can only use
the hardware protocol for which it was designed. A USB-only mouse works
only on a USB port, and a PS2-only mouse works only on a PS2 port. If
you want to use a mouse on either port type, you need to get a USB+PS2
compatible mouse. Else, you need to get an active converter that
performs the hardware translation required the cost of which usually
outweighs choosing to get a device that supports the port to which you
want to connect.
The wiring adapters you linked to at Amazon are passive devices. They
only do the wiring changeover. They are not active converters. That
means you need to use a device connected to them that does the hardware
conversion.
"Microsoft wired USB mouse" says nothing useful about the actual mouse.
No mention of model to determine if it supports both USB and PS2
connections. Look up the specifications of whatever mouse you have to
see which hardware protocols it supports. Go to the manufacturer's page
to get specs on your mouse. If it says USB+PS2 then you can use the
passive adapter you linked to. If it only mentions USB, it cannot be
used on a PS2 port unless an active converter is used to translate
between the different hardware protocols.
Wow, thanks guys. You saved me a bunch of work trying to fight this
thing. I'm sure glad I reached out. I was ready to de-install drivers
and hope Windows (I have 3 flavors running) would pick up the a 'new'
install and fix things for me. My hope was you'd teach me the best way
to do that thrashing around.
Mark Lloyd
2024-05-12 17:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Like others are saying, the adapter will work only if the mouse can work
either way (USB or PS/2). IIRC, I preferred USB since the connector is
more physically secure (it's less likely to fall out).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Bible is "a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology." [Mark
Twain, "Mark Twain and the Bible"]
J. P. Gilliver
2024-05-12 19:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Lloyd
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Like others are saying, the adapter will work only if the mouse can
work either way (USB or PS/2). IIRC, I preferred USB since the
connector is more physically secure (it's less likely to fall out).
I think a PS/2 one _can_ be quite secure if pushed well home. But, like
JBS, my inclination would be to use it anyway as it frees up a USB - and
a motherboard that still has a PS/2 one probably doesn't have as many
USB ones as is nowadays assumed. (In fact some laptops _still_ come with
a ridiculously small number of USBs, but I doubt it's one of those - I
haven't seen a laptop with a USB for years [or, come to think of it,
ever, I think].)

An advantage of a USB mouse - or perhaps rather, a disadvantage of a
PS/2 one - is that, on the whole, a USB one can be hot-plugged and
unplugged. A PS/2 one tends only to be detected at boot or reboot.

But it seems academic - unless JBS has a dual-mode mouse, he can't use
it as a PS/2 one, adapter or no.

(If you can tell us the model number of the mouse, we _might_ be able to
tell you if it is - but probably no more easily than you can.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

if you hate speeding tickets raise your right foot
Paul
2024-05-12 20:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
 My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Like others are saying, the adapter will work only if the mouse can work either way (USB or PS/2). IIRC, I preferred USB since the connector is more physically secure (it's less likely to fall out).
I think a PS/2 one _can_ be quite secure if pushed well home. But, like JBS, my inclination would be to use it anyway as it frees up a USB - and a motherboard that still has a PS/2 one probably doesn't have as many USB ones as is nowadays assumed. (In fact some laptops _still_ come with a ridiculously small number of USBs, but I doubt it's one of those - I haven't seen a laptop with a USB for years [or, come to think of it, ever, I think].)
An advantage of a USB mouse - or perhaps rather, a disadvantage of a PS/2 one - is that, on the whole, a USB one can be hot-plugged and unplugged. A PS/2 one tends only to be detected at boot or reboot.
But it seems academic - unless JBS has a dual-mode mouse, he can't use it as a PS/2 one, adapter or no.
(If you can tell us the model number of the mouse, we _might_ be able to tell you if it is - but probably no more easily than you can.)
The dual-mode mice, I don't think that was done with
the approval of USB.org . Not that it involves them
particularly. But it may have affected the marketing
of dual-mode mice, because I don't think there was much
visible information about it. My usage of the "dual-mode"
is for the benefit of the audience, and isn't an official
term. The box probably says "mouse" and that would be
about it.

As for hot-plug of PS/2, that's not recommended. You should
insert and remove the mini-DIN with the power off. There
are no "advanced-power-ground" contacts on mini-DIN.

With USB, the shield may touch first. Then, if some of
the contacts are longer than others, the VCC and GND
may touch at that point. Then the D+ and D- would be last.
That avoids reverse-biasing of D+ and D- .

But the PS/2 are not well protected against hot-plug,
so it's not recommended to plug in PS/2 hot if you can
avoid it.

Paul
g***@aol.com
2024-05-13 03:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
As for hot-plug of PS/2, that's not recommended. You should
insert and remove the mini-DIN with the power off. There
are no "advanced-power-ground" contacts on mini-DIN.
With USB, the shield may touch first. Then, if some of
the contacts are longer than others, the VCC and GND
may touch at that point. Then the D+ and D- would be last.
That avoids reverse-biasing of D+ and D- .
But the PS/2 are not well protected against hot-plug,
so it's not recommended to plug in PS/2 hot if you can
avoid it.
Paul
When I was working I hot plugged all sorts of stuff you weren't
supposed to and never had a problem. IBM finally figured out you could
hot plug SCSI drives but I had been doing it for years.
Worst case on a mouse or keyboard was I needed to reboot but it
usually just worked if one was there when it booted. Same with the
SCSI if you kept the geometry the same.
This was on actual PS/2s with Mod Ms and IBM mice tho.
BIOS from other folks may not be as forgiving.
Char Jackson
2024-05-15 00:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Paul
As for hot-plug of PS/2, that's not recommended. You should
insert and remove the mini-DIN with the power off. There
are no "advanced-power-ground" contacts on mini-DIN.
With USB, the shield may touch first. Then, if some of
the contacts are longer than others, the VCC and GND
may touch at that point. Then the D+ and D- would be last.
That avoids reverse-biasing of D+ and D- .
But the PS/2 are not well protected against hot-plug,
so it's not recommended to plug in PS/2 hot if you can
avoid it.
Paul
When I was working I hot plugged all sorts of stuff you weren't
supposed to and never had a problem. IBM finally figured out you could
hot plug SCSI drives but I had been doing it for years.
Worst case on a mouse or keyboard was I needed to reboot but it
usually just worked if one was there when it booted. Same with the
SCSI if you kept the geometry the same.
This was on actual PS/2s with Mod Ms and IBM mice tho.
BIOS from other folks may not be as forgiving.
I've hot plugged PS/2 stuff hundreds of times during the past 30-odd years and
never had a problem. I agree with Paul, though, that it's not generally a good
idea.
J. P. Gilliver
2024-05-15 16:49:39 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Char Jackson
Post by g***@aol.com
When I was working I hot plugged all sorts of stuff you weren't
supposed to and never had a problem. IBM finally figured out you could
hot plug SCSI drives but I had been doing it for years.
Worst case on a mouse or keyboard was I needed to reboot but it
usually just worked if one was there when it booted. Same with the
SCSI if you kept the geometry the same.
This was on actual PS/2s with Mod Ms and IBM mice tho.
BIOS from other folks may not be as forgiving.
I've hot plugged PS/2 stuff hundreds of times during the past 30-odd years and
never had a problem. I agree with Paul, though, that it's not generally a good
idea.
I don't _think_ I've ever _damaged_ anything PS/2 (would only be a
keyboard or mouse) by hot-plugging, but I've certainly seen then not
_detected_ until next boot.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

'It works for me' is not the same as it isn't broke - Kenn Villegas, 2010-2-19
in
https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/why-the-windows-registry-sucks-technically/
g***@aol.com
2024-05-16 00:52:37 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 May 2024 17:49:39 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Char Jackson
Post by g***@aol.com
When I was working I hot plugged all sorts of stuff you weren't
supposed to and never had a problem. IBM finally figured out you could
hot plug SCSI drives but I had been doing it for years.
Worst case on a mouse or keyboard was I needed to reboot but it
usually just worked if one was there when it booted. Same with the
SCSI if you kept the geometry the same.
This was on actual PS/2s with Mod Ms and IBM mice tho.
BIOS from other folks may not be as forgiving.
I've hot plugged PS/2 stuff hundreds of times during the past 30-odd years and
never had a problem. I agree with Paul, though, that it's not generally a good
idea.
I don't _think_ I've ever _damaged_ anything PS/2 (would only be a
keyboard or mouse) by hot-plugging, but I've certainly seen then not
_detected_ until next boot.
I am not sure I have ever had Windows not see a hot plug mouse and I
do it a lot. Dongles can be a crap shoot. I never start off with a
wireless mouse.
g***@aol.com
2024-05-16 00:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Paul
As for hot-plug of PS/2, that's not recommended. You should
insert and remove the mini-DIN with the power off. There
are no "advanced-power-ground" contacts on mini-DIN.
With USB, the shield may touch first. Then, if some of
the contacts are longer than others, the VCC and GND
may touch at that point. Then the D+ and D- would be last.
That avoids reverse-biasing of D+ and D- .
But the PS/2 are not well protected against hot-plug,
so it's not recommended to plug in PS/2 hot if you can
avoid it.
Paul
When I was working I hot plugged all sorts of stuff you weren't
supposed to and never had a problem. IBM finally figured out you could
hot plug SCSI drives but I had been doing it for years.
Worst case on a mouse or keyboard was I needed to reboot but it
usually just worked if one was there when it booted. Same with the
SCSI if you kept the geometry the same.
This was on actual PS/2s with Mod Ms and IBM mice tho.
BIOS from other folks may not be as forgiving.
I've hot plugged PS/2 stuff hundreds of times during the past 30-odd years and
never had a problem. I agree with Paul, though, that it's not generally a good
idea.
How interesting could life be if you never did anything that was "not
a good idea"?
To paraphrase the line
Good ideas come from experience.
Experience comes from bad ideas.
I also understand if it isn't going to work anyway without a boot,
turn it off. Back in my working (DOS) days cold boot was about as long
as it took to sip some coffee ;)
The MP3 players in my cars went from key on to music in about 10
seconds (Socket 7 machine running DOS 6.3 and MPXPLAY)
Paul
2024-05-16 07:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
How interesting could life be if you never did anything that was "not
a good idea"?
To paraphrase the line
Good ideas come from experience.
Experience comes from bad ideas.
I also understand if it isn't going to work anyway without a boot,
turn it off. Back in my working (DOS) days cold boot was about as long
as it took to sip some coffee ;)
The MP3 players in my cars went from key on to music in about 10
seconds (Socket 7 machine running DOS 6.3 and MPXPLAY)
Not all the failure mode analysis, received official recognition.

Firewire had a failure mode. The four pin version of Firewire
(the two bus power connections are missing), that has a good safety
recorded. It was the six pin connectors that had an issue.

We have a number of connectors, where the metal shell has a seam.
Some of the seams have held up well. The mini-DIN connector for
PS/2 keyboard and mouse, that seems to hold up pretty well. It's
likely to be the mechanical support it gets from the computer side
that helps.

But the Firewire one was all wrong, and the seam on the metal shell
would become wider as it aged. This affected capture and the
order of pin connection. And the implication was that *perhaps*
bus power type levels, were getting applied to the data pins.
This could ruin the interface on your $1000 camcorder (at the time).
Firewire had several protocols (profiles if you will), and one
of them was a video transfer protocol (could be 61883, not sure).
And if the camcorder lost its Firewire connection, then you'd
have fun trying to figure out how to get stuff off your tape.

While Firewire might have been intended for hot-plug with that
interface, the idea was, if you believed the six pin shell hypothesis,
you would not plug in any cabling with damaged ("split") shells.
It was just an "influencer" who was warning us about this
particular case -- no one in an official capacity gave a rats ass.

The alignment plastic tab on the PS/2 mini-DIN, it only sticks
up above the pins by a tiny fraction of an inch. A lot of
users, will not get the rotation right when hot-plugging,
so they'll be trying various stabbing and rotating motions
(especially if working in low-light conditions). The difference
in lengths in the mini-DIN, is pretty small, and what we're relying
on, is the metal shell providing reliable capture with good
tolerances, so that things don't touch, before they're
ready to touch.

When I plug in a mini-DIN ("with the power off"), I try to
use the alignment mark in the plastic, so the insertion
is right on the first try. Earlier on, I was using the
"stab and rotate algorithm", with the hilarious results
you would expect from such. The connector, does not seem
to want to go straight in, and the bevel on the shell
(the piece bitten out of it), they've done that for some
reason, but right now, I don't know what that reason is.
It could be, that the mechanical engineer doing capture
analysis, decided that feature added more margin.

Paul
g***@aol.com
2024-05-18 18:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by g***@aol.com
How interesting could life be if you never did anything that was "not
a good idea"?
To paraphrase the line
Good ideas come from experience.
Experience comes from bad ideas.
I also understand if it isn't going to work anyway without a boot,
turn it off. Back in my working (DOS) days cold boot was about as long
as it took to sip some coffee ;)
The MP3 players in my cars went from key on to music in about 10
seconds (Socket 7 machine running DOS 6.3 and MPXPLAY)
Not all the failure mode analysis, received official recognition.
Firewire had a failure mode. The four pin version of Firewire
(the two bus power connections are missing), that has a good safety
recorded. It was the six pin connectors that had an issue.
We have a number of connectors, where the metal shell has a seam.
Some of the seams have held up well. The mini-DIN connector for
PS/2 keyboard and mouse, that seems to hold up pretty well. It's
likely to be the mechanical support it gets from the computer side
that helps.
But the Firewire one was all wrong, and the seam on the metal shell
would become wider as it aged. This affected capture and the
order of pin connection. And the implication was that *perhaps*
bus power type levels, were getting applied to the data pins.
This could ruin the interface on your $1000 camcorder (at the time).
Firewire had several protocols (profiles if you will), and one
of them was a video transfer protocol (could be 61883, not sure).
And if the camcorder lost its Firewire connection, then you'd
have fun trying to figure out how to get stuff off your tape.
While Firewire might have been intended for hot-plug with that
interface, the idea was, if you believed the six pin shell hypothesis,
you would not plug in any cabling with damaged ("split") shells.
It was just an "influencer" who was warning us about this
particular case -- no one in an official capacity gave a rats ass.
The alignment plastic tab on the PS/2 mini-DIN, it only sticks
up above the pins by a tiny fraction of an inch. A lot of
users, will not get the rotation right when hot-plugging,
so they'll be trying various stabbing and rotating motions
(especially if working in low-light conditions). The difference
in lengths in the mini-DIN, is pretty small, and what we're relying
on, is the metal shell providing reliable capture with good
tolerances, so that things don't touch, before they're
ready to touch.
When I plug in a mini-DIN ("with the power off"), I try to
use the alignment mark in the plastic, so the insertion
is right on the first try. Earlier on, I was using the
"stab and rotate algorithm", with the hilarious results
you would expect from such. The connector, does not seem
to want to go straight in, and the bevel on the shell
(the piece bitten out of it), they've done that for some
reason, but right now, I don't know what that reason is.
It could be, that the mechanical engineer doing capture
analysis, decided that feature added more margin.
Paul
On real PS/2s IBM tried to be consistent with which way was up. The
clone folks, not so much.
VanguardLH
2024-05-12 21:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Lloyd
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Like others are saying, the adapter will work only if the mouse can
work either way (USB or PS/2). IIRC, I preferred USB since the
connector is more physically secure (it's less likely to fall out).
Don't remember a PS2 mouse or keyboard falling out of the port unless I
was moving my hands behind the case to re-cable and was careless. If
you keep knocking off the PS2 cable, you might eventually have to
replace the PS2 port. USB ports can also get damaged from abuse.

Gamers prefer PS2, and why there are still mobos with PS2. USB is
polled. PS2 is interrupt driven. I don't play those adrenalin pumping
super fast action games, so a USB mouse works fine for me. However, if
my build has PS2 ports (mouse and keyboard), I dislike wasting them.
Really depends on what features I want in a mouse and keyboard, pricing
of variants on a device (USB, PS2, USB+PS2), and if the candidates even
have PS2 variants. PS2 is getting harder to find.

My builds usually have lots of USB ports. Eliminates having to get a
powered USB hub, and one where its power supply can handle a full load
on each port, not just shared power across a few concurrent ports. My
current build has 12, and a mobo with enough USB controllers to
eliminate having to use a daughtercard to consume a card slot. Most
pre-builts don't have many USB ports, and mobiles have far fewer (but
those don't have PS2, anyway).

Another factor is if the mobo's firmware (BIOS) supports USB mice. The
OP might be using a mobo that is old enough that it only supports a PS2
mouse when going into the BIOS config screens. My mobo has a PS2 port,
and if I need the mouse in BIOS (never have, so far), I have a PS2 mouse
in reserve. Even the keyboard may need to be PS2 for really old BIOS.
g***@aol.com
2024-05-13 03:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Another factor is if the mobo's firmware (BIOS) supports USB mice. The
OP might be using a mobo that is old enough that it only supports a PS2
mouse when going into the BIOS config screens. My mobo has a PS2 port,
and if I need the mouse in BIOS (never have, so far), I have a PS2 mouse
in reserve. Even the keyboard may need to be PS2 for really old BIOS.
I am old enough to have a couple of those. ;)
I pretty much just moved off my old W/98 Dell Laptop. It can't see a
remote keyboard or mouse on USB until the OS loads a driver for it. I
finally scrounged up a PS/2 mouse that needed work but I got going.
The scratch pad is too flaky to use.
I seem to remember another one here too. It may have gone out with the
flood.
Paul
2024-05-13 06:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by VanguardLH
Another factor is if the mobo's firmware (BIOS) supports USB mice. The
OP might be using a mobo that is old enough that it only supports a PS2
mouse when going into the BIOS config screens. My mobo has a PS2 port,
and if I need the mouse in BIOS (never have, so far), I have a PS2 mouse
in reserve. Even the keyboard may need to be PS2 for really old BIOS.
I am old enough to have a couple of those. ;)
I pretty much just moved off my old W/98 Dell Laptop. It can't see a
remote keyboard or mouse on USB until the OS loads a driver for it. I
finally scrounged up a PS/2 mouse that needed work but I got going.
The scratch pad is too flaky to use.
I seem to remember another one here too. It may have gone out with the
flood.
The way that the average BIOS worked, is the Southbridge USB port had
a BIOS driver, but if you added an "add-on chip" like a NEC USB2 chip,
that didn't have a BIOS level driver, and a keyboard on such a port
was only available when the OS loaded drivers.

And while Van mentions the usage of a USB hub for improving fanout
on a PC, early PCs, the BIOS did not have the intelligence to handle
arbitrary USB trees. The BIOS liked your peripherals to be directly
connected. Today, the BIOS code is much better on topics like that,
and the odds have improved that a unique config, will work.

Normally, you cannot boot from an NVMe flash storage, unless the
UEFI BIOS has the NVMe code module in it. The exception, is someone
made a PCIe card with an NVMe slot on it, and the ROM on the board
did support booting. That means, if I wanted, I could make
my ten year old machine boot off an NVMe, and it would only
cost me $500 to do that (it doesn't have NVMe support). There
are a few topics like that in computer history, where lethargy
prevented progress. But somebody took up the challenge on that one,
and you too can do that, for $500.

Paul
Jack
2024-05-13 00:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Don't waste your time on adaptors. If you want to save ONE USB port then
get wireless Mouse/Keyboard (combo) that can operate from one USB
wireless dongle. I use Logi (Logitech MK270 Wireless Mouse and
Keyboard)  but there is also a similar one from DELL or Amazon Basic.
Make sure it is combo so that both keyboard/mouse can work.

Alternative is to get Bluetooth mouse if you already have Bluetooth in
your machine. Most laptops these days have Bluetooth but not desktops.

I know this suggestion is a bit costly but you want something that is
going to work come what may. Adaptors are just a work-around but they
are not long term solutions. I assume your keyboard is currently hooked to a usb port so you can replace it with wireless as suggested.
VanguardLH
2024-05-13 00:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Don't waste your time on adaptors. If you want to save ONE USB port then
get wireless Mouse/Keyboard (combo) that can operate from one USB
wireless dongle. I use Logi (Logitech MK270 Wireless Mouse and
Keyboard)  but there is also a similar one from DELL or Amazon Basic.
Make sure it is combo so that both keyboard/mouse can work.
Alternative is to get Bluetooth mouse if you already have Bluetooth in
your machine. Most laptops these days have Bluetooth but not desktops.
I know this suggestion is a bit costly but you want something that is
going to work come what may. Adaptors are just a work-around but they
are not long term solutions. I assume your keyboard is currently hooked to a usb port so you can replace it with wireless as suggested.
Or don't go wireless, and instead get a powered USB hub to connect
multiple USB devices to a single USB port.
John
2024-05-13 16:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack
Post by John B. Smith
I have been using a Microsoft wired USB mouse for several years. I
noticed these USB-PS2 adaptors on Amazon and ordered them.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WV5JMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
My idea was I could save a USB jack on my PC if I switched to PS2.
So I plugged the adaptor into the mouse cable and plugged the cable
into the green PS2 port. Booted Win7 and cannot move mouse cursor. It
occurred to me that Windows installed the mouse as a USB connect and
now cannot recognize it when I connect it with PS2. But I'm only
guessing. IF I'm right, what's the easy way to re-install the mouse
without leaving myself mouseless in the middle of doing it?
Don't waste your time on adaptors. If you want to save ONE USB port then
get wireless Mouse/Keyboard (combo) that can operate from one USB
wireless dongle. I use Logi (Logitech MK270 Wireless Mouse and
Keyboard)  but there is also a similar one from DELL or Amazon Basic.
Make sure it is combo so that both keyboard/mouse can work.
I bought one of those combination packs for the mac-mini I was given.
It's a Windows pair, with Windows keys but both rodent and KB were
seen immediately by the Mac and they both work beautifully.

Less than £20 as opposed to £300 for a "magic" Apple mouse and
keyboard. Also, the look and feel of the Win-pair are far better.

I just need to remember to re-map a couple of keys in my mind when
using the KB.
Post by Jack
Alternative is to get Bluetooth mouse if you already have Bluetooth in
your machine. Most laptops these days have Bluetooth but not desktops.
Oh. I never noticed that my desktop lacked BT. Thank you for pointing
me at this. I've obviously never needed it but it's still nice to know
that I *can't* use it. :)

Genuine thanks, not sarcasm.
Post by Jack
I know this suggestion is a bit costly but you want something that is
going to work come what may. Adaptors are just a work-around but they
are not long term solutions. I assume your keyboard is currently
hooked to a usb port so you can replace it with wireless as suggested.
That's not as burdensome as it sounds at first glance. Wireless
KB/Mouse battery packs can last for years on a charge and are fairly
cheap AAA-sized. Replacing them takes a few seconds.

Not having wires makes using the kit a little easier at times.

And, as I said above, a cheap pair can run to between £20 and £30
which probably translates as about $20 - $30 USAlien plus whatever
local taxes you guys have.

Of course there's the cost of batteries to add in, so wireless are a
constant small drain on the bank.

J.
J. P. Gilliver
2024-05-14 02:30:10 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by John
Post by Jack
Alternative is to get Bluetooth mouse if you already have Bluetooth in
your machine. Most laptops these days have Bluetooth but not desktops.
Oh. I never noticed that my desktop lacked BT. Thank you for pointing
me at this. I've obviously never needed it but it's still nice to know
that I *can't* use it. :)
Genuine thanks, not sarcasm.
Post by Jack
I know this suggestion is a bit costly but you want something that is
going to work come what may. Adaptors are just a work-around but they
are not long term solutions. I assume your keyboard is currently
hooked to a usb port so you can replace it with wireless as suggested.
That's not as burdensome as it sounds at first glance. Wireless
KB/Mouse battery packs can last for years on a charge and are fairly
cheap AAA-sized. Replacing them takes a few seconds.
Not having wires makes using the kit a little easier at times.
And, as I said above, a cheap pair can run to between £20 and £30
which probably translates as about $20 - $30 USAlien plus whatever
local taxes you guys have.
Of course there's the cost of batteries to add in, so wireless are a
constant small drain on the bank.
J.
Even smaller (not zero as they still may need replacing occasionally) if
you use rechargeables.

I do remember wireless mice where the receiver doubled as a charger, i.
e. when you finished with it you put the mouse back into it, but I think
that was back in the days of IR; I think modern wireless uses microwave
RF rather than IR, so the receivers are basically just a USB plug, not
anything big enough to put a mouse into.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I admire you British: when things get tough, you reach for humour. Not
firearms. - Sigourney (Susan) Weaver, RT 2017/11/4-10
g***@aol.com
2024-05-14 15:38:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 May 2024 03:30:10 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by John
Post by Jack
Alternative is to get Bluetooth mouse if you already have Bluetooth in
your machine. Most laptops these days have Bluetooth but not desktops.
Oh. I never noticed that my desktop lacked BT. Thank you for pointing
me at this. I've obviously never needed it but it's still nice to know
that I *can't* use it. :)
Genuine thanks, not sarcasm.
Post by Jack
I know this suggestion is a bit costly but you want something that is
going to work come what may. Adaptors are just a work-around but they
are not long term solutions. I assume your keyboard is currently
hooked to a usb port so you can replace it with wireless as suggested.
That's not as burdensome as it sounds at first glance. Wireless
KB/Mouse battery packs can last for years on a charge and are fairly
cheap AAA-sized. Replacing them takes a few seconds.
Not having wires makes using the kit a little easier at times.
And, as I said above, a cheap pair can run to between £20 and £30
which probably translates as about $20 - $30 USAlien plus whatever
local taxes you guys have.
Of course there's the cost of batteries to add in, so wireless are a
constant small drain on the bank.
J.
Even smaller (not zero as they still may need replacing occasionally) if
you use rechargeables.
I do remember wireless mice where the receiver doubled as a charger, i.
e. when you finished with it you put the mouse back into it, but I think
that was back in the days of IR; I think modern wireless uses microwave
RF rather than IR, so the receivers are basically just a USB plug, not
anything big enough to put a mouse into.
I am a wireless fan. I seldom use a wired mouse or keyboard. Since I
like a back light on the keyboard, rechargeable is the only way to go.
The mouse(s) are running on AAAs but they last a long time. When you
are buying them look for 2.4gz, either Bluetooth or some other
proprietary protocol. The range on them is 10 meters with clear line
of sight. Bluetooth is easier on a laptop since they have it on board
but the Logitech "unifying receiver" family is my preference for desk
tops since one dongle will support up to 6 devices. I like having a
couple of mice on my "TV PCs" so everyone can have one. You do end up
with a lot of spare receivers since every device comes with one. That
is handy too if you have a lot of PCs sitting around. Once the
software is loaded, marrying a device is fast.
Jack
2024-05-19 02:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John
Oh. I never noticed that my desktop lacked BT. Thank you for pointing
me at this. I've obviously never needed it but it's still nice to know
that I*can't* use it.
With BT dongle (latest) or in Laptops It's almost automatic if using
Windows 10 onwards. Microsoft's "Swift Pair" technology is very advanced
these days.

<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/component-guidelines/bluetooth-swift-pair>

Good thing about BT Keyboards and Mice is that you can control multiple
devices without having to buy separate keyboard and mouse for each. Of
course Universal USB wireless dongle can also do this but it is
difficult to configure. Logi have two downloads for this:

logioptionsplus_installer.exe
<https://download01.logi.com/web/ftp/pub/techsupport/optionsplus/logioptionsplus_installer.exe>
unifying252.exe
<https://download01.logi.com/web/ftp/pub/techsupport/unifying/unifying252.exe>
John
2024-05-19 10:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack
Post by John
Oh. I never noticed that my desktop lacked BT. Thank you for pointing
me at this. I've obviously never needed it but it's still nice to know
that I*can't* use it.
With BT dongle (latest) or in Laptops It's almost automatic if using
Windows 10 onwards. Microsoft's "Swift Pair" technology is very advanced
these days.
<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/component-guidelines/bluetooth-swift-pair>
Thank you.

That could help lots of us. Not me as I'll never have a
Win-10-or-more PC but surely others.
Post by Jack
Good thing about BT Keyboards and Mice is that you can control multiple
devices without having to buy separate keyboard and mouse for each. Of
course Universal USB wireless dongle can also do this but it is
logioptionsplus_installer.exe
<https://download01.logi.com/web/ftp/pub/techsupport/optionsplus/logioptionsplus_installer.exe>
unifying252.exe
<https://download01.logi.com/web/ftp/pub/techsupport/unifying/unifying252.exe>
Thank you.

J.
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