Discussion:
[OT]? How to read facebook groups (and alike) posts
(too old to reply)
R.Wieser
2022-03-30 18:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Hello all,

I'm using DDG and Google to search for some particular information, and ever
so often get results back that poin to a facebook group. I neither have a
login, nor does my browser run random scripts.

My question : does anyone know of a way to read (and *just* that)
facebook-group posts ? A proxy perhaps ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

P.s.
If someone knows about similar simple, read-only access to other social
media I would like to hear about those too.
Philip Herlihy
2022-03-30 19:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Hello all,
I'm using DDG and Google to search for some particular information, and ever
so often get results back that poin to a facebook group. I neither have a
login, nor does my browser run random scripts.
My question : does anyone know of a way to read (and *just* that)
facebook-group posts ? A proxy perhaps ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
P.s.
If someone knows about similar simple, read-only access to other social
media I would like to hear about those too.
Facebook groups (I've been an admin of a large group) are configured to be
public, private or secret (I rather think terms have changed, but the principal
is the same).

Public groups don't restrict visibility of posts at all, or their members'
identities, though individuals can also influence this. Private groups only
allow visibility of content to members. Secret groups can't be found in a
search - you have to have the exact name or link.

There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile, though admins
considering you for membership of their group often turn up their nose at near-
blank profiles. Be thoughtful what you disclose, but you can make most of your
details private. If you accept Facebook "friends" you can classify them as
Family, Close Friends, Friends or Acquaintances (without them seeing this).
Then choose which level of Friends are to be able to see any default posts you
make (adjustable on a per-post basis).

Facebook is huge fun if you get it right. You can keep up with people you'd
otherwise lose touch with, and groups can be a rich source of interest,
including locality-based groups. I learned a lot (and even grew a little as a
person) from creating and administering a very busy and lively locality group,
learning to deal with fools, trolls and worse, while cultivating a real
community. But I got sucked in to the point where it was taking up WAY too
much time, and I'm currently taking a lengthy break. I look forward to getting
back to it when current big projects are done and dusted.

One lesson, to pick from many? "Always let the other side have the last word.
For then it will be their foolishness, and not yours, that will linger in
people's minds."

TLDR: No, you can't read the content in private groups (most groups) unless
your Facebook identity is given membership of the group.
--
Phil, London
R.Wieser
2022-03-30 20:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
Facebook groups (I've been an admin of a large group) are configured
to be public, private or secret
I'm aware of that. AFAIk the group I try to read the messages in is public.
Post by Philip Herlihy
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile,
Lets put it this way : I have zero wish to hand over my life to Facebook
just to read a few posts. Besides the problem that I would still be unable
to read anything, as everything is hidden away behind lots of JavaScript (I
checked)

Hence my question.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Mayayana
2022-03-30 21:30:04 UTC
Permalink
"R.Wieser" <***@not.available> wrote

| Lets put it this way : I have zero wish to hand over my life to Facebook
| just to read a few posts. Besides the problem that I would still be
unable
| to read anything, as everything is hidden away behind lots of JavaScript
(I
| checked)
|

I'm with you. Surprisingly, even a lot of organizations
and businesses use Facebook without having websites.
They just don't know about the WWW. They only know
social media.

I haven't come across a way to access such groups.
I just try to shame them when I have a chance. But
I did come across nitter.net, which allows you to search
and read Twitter without javascript. So if Twitter ever
has anything worth reading... I'm all set. :) So far I've
only used it to look up old friends, none of which seem
to actually post there.
Philip Herlihy
2022-03-31 08:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Lets put it this way : I have zero wish to hand over my life to Facebook
| just to read a few posts. Besides the problem that I would still be
unable
| to read anything, as everything is hidden away behind lots of JavaScript
(I
| checked)
|
I'm with you. Surprisingly, even a lot of organizations
and businesses use Facebook without having websites.
They just don't know about the WWW. They only know
social media.
I haven't come across a way to access such groups.
I just try to shame them when I have a chance. But
I did come across nitter.net, which allows you to search
and read Twitter without javascript. So if Twitter ever
has anything worth reading... I'm all set. :) So far I've
only used it to look up old friends, none of which seem
to actually post there.
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post - termed
"permalink" in FB. That link is underneath the faint grey legend of the
date/time of posting, just beneath the post. So it's possible to access a
given post via the web, if the applicable permissions allow. But if nobody
identifies that link for you, then without a profile you'll be knocking at a
locked door. It's perfectly possible to have a minimal profile, even using
genuine information, and to configure it so that none of it is visible to
anyone that you haven't explicitly given permission to. And that would give
you many more chances to get at the info you're looking for. But some people
simply knee-jerk at the thought (often based on third-hand accounts) of social
media. The choice is yours.

TikTok, on the other hand, is clearly the work of Satan.
--
Phil, London
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 09:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.

I took the time to follow such a link (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/{name}/posts/{big number} ), and all that I
got was a page full of JS. With the only human readable contentin some
"<meta property=" tags in the "head" part of the page.

IOW, the link itself is *at best* an indirect one - with the actual content
hidden behind a lot of JS.

Why do you think I asked ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
JJ
2022-03-31 11:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.
I took the time to follow such a link (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/{name}/posts/{big number} ), and all that I
got was a page full of JS. With the only human readable contentin some
"<meta property=" tags in the "head" part of the page.
IOW, the link itself is *at best* an indirect one - with the actual content
hidden behind a lot of JS.
Why do you think I asked ?
It's going to be difficult or at least, tedious.

First of all, the correct JS code will need to be parsed to extract the raw
data of the page content which contains user posted messages - which is in
form of a JS object.

The other difficulties is that, the HTML page resource retrieved from a post
URL, only contains the first view comments. FB retrieves the rest of the
comments using JS, and the URL used to retrieve it includes access tokens -
which also need to be extracted from a JS code elsewhere from the HTML page
resource and/or cookie.

You might want to search GitHub or other open source project repositories
for a project that does that _without_ using FB's Graph API. FYI, FB's Graph
API requires an FB account to generate an access token.
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 12:54:25 UTC
Permalink
JJ,
Post by JJ
It's going to be difficult or at least, tedious.
First of all, the correct JS code will need to be parsed to extract
the raw data of the page content which contains user posted messages
- which is in form of a JS object.
I was hoping that someone had already done that, wrapped it into a bit of
PHP, and would offer the result to us as a simple webpage. :-)

But yes, I've also considered trying to do that.
Post by JJ
You might want to search GitHub or other open source project
repositories for a project that does that _without_ using FB's Graph
API.
Thanks for pointer as well as the warning.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
nospam
2022-03-31 11:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.
yes it is.
Post by R.Wieser
I took the time to follow such a link (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/{name}/posts/{big number} ), and all that I
got was a page full of JS. With the only human readable contentin some
"<meta property=" tags in the "head" part of the page.
IOW, the link itself is *at best* an indirect one - with the actual content
hidden behind a lot of JS.
your browser is either misconfigured or not supported. did you disable
javascript? what browser are you using?

if the content is not public, you should see a login page. since you
stated you do not have a facebook account, that will be as far as you
get, and even if you did have an account, it might not be available to
you.
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 18:47:17 UTC
Permalink
nospam,
Post by nospam
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.
yes it is.
Seeing thay you have ignored my explanation to why I think it isn't as well
as having provided zilch in regard to why you think otherwise I have little
other choice than to ignore that. Funny how that works ...
Post by nospam
if the content is not public, you should see a login page.
Someone else mentioned that too. I already replied to him about it.
Post by nospam
your browser is either misconfigured or not supported.
On what grounds did you determine that ?...
Post by nospam
did you disable javascript?
... Oh wait, you didn't.

And how is that relevant ? My browser doesn't do javascript. Thats all you
need to know.
Post by nospam
what browser are you using?
Again, how is that relevant ?

Kid, you are concentrating on solving problems I *do not* have, instead of
trying to solve the one I *do* have.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
nospam
2022-04-01 02:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.
yes it is.
Seeing thay you have ignored my explanation to why I think it isn't as well
as having provided zilch in regard to why you think otherwise I have little
other choice than to ignore that. Funny how that works ...
i haven't ignored anything, and what matters are the facts, not what
you think.

it *is* possible to view some facebook content via a direct link
*without* logging in, however, most people don't provide such a link.

i don't know why you continue to argue that it's not possible when it
is.
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
if the content is not public, you should see a login page.
Someone else mentioned that too. I already replied to him about it.
they mentioned it because that's how facebook works.

the only way to verify if someone is entitled to see non-public content
is by logging in. this is not a difficult concept.
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
your browser is either misconfigured or not supported.
On what grounds did you determine that ?...
that you're seeing raw javascript.

if you did so deliberately expecting to find the post buried within it,
then you're even more lost than originally thought.
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
did you disable javascript?
... Oh wait, you didn't.
And how is that relevant ? My browser doesn't do javascript. Thats all you
need to know.
it's relevant because facebook relies on a modern browser with
javascript enabled.

if whatever unnamed browser that you're too embarrassed to say what it
is does not meet their requirement, then you are going to have numerous
problems. that's all you need to know.
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
what browser are you using?
Again, how is that relevant ?
it's relevant because facebook does not support older browsers, nor do
a lot of other sites for that matter.

if whatever unnamed browser you're using is unsupported, which based on
your description, it's not, then you are going to have problems and not
just with facebook either.
Post by R.Wieser
Kid, you are concentrating on solving problems I *do not* have, instead of
trying to solve the one I *do* have.
do not call me kid and you were given solutions, at least for facebook.
g***@aol.com
2022-04-01 06:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
it *is* possible to view some facebook content via a direct link
*without* logging in, however, most people don't provide such a link.
I agree with that. I see facebook links on some net groups that go
directly to the content without a log in screen. I don't know how to
do it tho. I don't ever link Facebook content. This thread explains
why.
I'm an adult. I buy web space for my content.
Philip Herlihy
2022-04-02 17:17:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
nospam,
Post by nospam
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.
yes it is.
...
Post by R.Wieser
... My browser doesn't do javascript. Thats all you
need to know.
Indeed it is.

You may well have a good rationale for shunning a technology that's used to
deliver content on a very large proportion of sites, and that's enabled on a
the overwhelming majority of browsers in use, but failing to mention that does
distort the question somewhat. So no, you can't get to this stuff, and you
might as well stop trying. Most of the content you seek is going to be behind
a permissions wall anyway.
--
Phil, London
R.Wieser
2022-04-02 18:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
You may well have a good rationale for shunning a technology that's
used to deliver content on a very large proportion of sites, and
that's enabled on a the overwhelming majority of browsers in use, but
failing to mention that does distort the question somewhat.
You know what also distorts what you think my question is ? You not
actually having read it (in my initial post).

I suggest you do that now. You might want to apologize afterwards.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Philip Herlihy
2022-04-03 11:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
You may well have a good rationale for shunning a technology that's
used to deliver content on a very large proportion of sites, and
that's enabled on a the overwhelming majority of browsers in use, but
failing to mention that does distort the question somewhat.
You know what also distorts what you think my question is ? You not
actually having read it (in my initial post).
I suggest you do that now. You might want to apologize afterwards.
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Hello all,
I'm using DDG and Google to search for some particular information, and ever
so often get results back that poin to a facebook group. I neither have a
login, nor does my browser run random scripts.
My question : does anyone know of a way to read (and *just* that)
facebook-group posts ? A proxy perhaps ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
P.s.
If someone knows about similar simple, read-only access to other social
media I would like to hear about those too.
And, yes, you do say ".. nor does my browser run random scripts". And, yes, I
did miss those words (or perhaps didn't interpret them as you intended).
That's surely understandable: my browser doesn't run "random" scripts either,
just those which are part of pages I load (I'm just careful about which those
are).

I often ask for help in groups like this. I recognise that people often don't
have much time to devote to considering my own puzzles, so I do my best to be
clear, highlighting anything of significance while keeping the overall length
as short as I reasonably can. Meanwhile, when replying (invariably with the
aim of being helpful) I'd want to disabuse people of unhelpful
misapprehensions.

So yes, you can have a web link which will load a Facebook page or group post
in the vast majority of browsers without an FB profile provided the permissions
are set to allow that. Most are not, so your choices will likely prevent you
getting the information you seek.

I don't know what your reasons are for shunning JavaScript (nor do I care,
frankly). If it's enough to ring-fence such activity so that it doesn't have
to be enabled in your browser you could consider using the app, available for
mobiles and for Windows. But you'd need at least a minimal profile, and - as
previously warned - group admins (who would have to admit you to their groups
in most cases if you are to see the content) tend to be wary of profiles which
give nothing away. Facebook isn't intrinsically evil, and if you did sign up,
you could describe yourself as someone new to FB, drawn here by your interest
in XYZ. You may even find yourself in interesting exchanges, as happens here.
--
Phil, London
Andy Burns
2022-03-31 11:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I took the time to follow such a link (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/{name}/posts/{big number} ), and all that I
got was a page full of JS.
I'm not on FB in any way, but there's a village hall group I sometimes look at,
if you google for the name of the group, facebook wants you to login to see it,
but if you find a link to an item on the group itself, the group is "public" and
"visible" and you can see the discussion without logging in at all.

the formats that work for me are just

<https://www.facebook.com/groups/1111122222333335>

or

<https://www.facebook.com/groups/1111122222333335/posts/6666677777888889>

I don't see any javascript gobbledygook
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 13:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
the formats that work for me are just
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/1111122222333335>
or
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/1111122222333335/posts/6666677777888889>
I've tried both formats, with the latter one being the one I described in
the post you replied to. Neither work for me.
Post by Andy Burns
I don't see any javascript gobbledygook
:-) You're not supposed to. You'll only see it when looking at the page
source.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Philip Herlihy
2022-04-02 17:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post
No, it isn't possible.
I took the time to follow such a link (
https://www.facebook.com/groups/{name}/posts/{big number} ), and all that I
got was a page full of JS. With the only human readable contentin some
"<meta property=" tags in the "head" part of the page.
IOW, the link itself is *at best* an indirect one - with the actual content
hidden behind a lot of JS.
Why do you think I asked ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Well, there's not much point asking if you're going to dismiss any answers you
get.

This is such a link. It points to a 'page' maintained by a (rather good)
fitness equipment manufacturer. Unsurprisingly, acces isn't restricted to
Facebook users. To verify this, I logged out of FB in the browser in which I
access Facebook (having dug out this link) then fired up a different browser
(in which I don't access FB) and pasted the link. Up comes the page, together
with an encouragement to log in to Facebook. Groups work the same way, but
although I've occasionally been surprised to spot a 'public' group, I can't
currently think of one. Here's the link:

https://www.facebook.com/Bowflex/photos/a.10150424282868938/10160229963088938/
(Their Max Trainer is an *amazing* bit of kit...)
--
Phil, London
R.Wieser
2022-04-02 18:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Philip,
Post by Philip Herlihy
Well, there's not much point asking if you're going to dismiss any
answers you get.
It was in no way ment dismissive. If I would have wanted to do that I would
not added an explanation to why I disagreed.

I know what you ment, and it probably looks like that for you (with JS
enabled in your browser), but for me (with JS disabled) I see something
different.
Post by Philip Herlihy
This is such a link.
...
Post by Philip Herlihy
Up comes the page, together with an encouragement to log in to Facebook.
Below is what I see. I've trimmed all lines otherwise it would be 268
KByte :


< !DOCTYPE html>< html id="facebook" class="_9dls __fb-light-mode" lang="nl"
< link type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/r
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3/y-/r/ITe
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3iT8I4/yf/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3iGHn4/yp/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3iF2Q4/yn/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3ijxk4/yi/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3iqH14/yY/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3i2sC4/yJ/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3iECz4/yM/
< link rel="preload" href="https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v3/yP/r/HZG
< !--EF-->

< title>Facebook< /title>
< script>requireLazy(["HasteSupportData"],function(m){m.handle({"bxData":{"
< /head>< body class="_6s5d _71pn _-kb">< div id="mount_0_0_/4">< /div>
< script>var hc=navigator&&navigator.hardwareConcurrency;null!=hc&&4>hc&&do
< script>requireLazy(["replaceNativeTimer"],function(j){j()})< /script>
< script>requireLazy(["bootstrapWebSession"],function(j){j(1648920612)})<
/script>
<
script>qpl_tag(["comet_aa_coinflip:false"]);qpl_inl("7082060102531052788","
<
script>__SSRInit({"cavalry_get_lid":"7082060102531052788","success_status":
<
script>requireLazy(["JSScheduler"],function(j){j.makeSchedulerGlobalEntry(null,false)})<
/script>
<
script>requireLazy(["JSScheduler","ServerJS","ScheduledApplyEach"],function(J
< script>qpl_inl("7082060102531052788","tierOneEnd");< /script>

<
script>qpl_inl("7082060102531052788","tierTwo");qpl_inl("7082060102531052788-server","tierTwo",263);<
/script>
<
script>requireLazy(["HasteSupportData"],function(m){m.handle({"clpData":{"1743
requireLazy(["JSScheduler","ServerJS","ScheduledApplyEach"],function(JSScheduler,
< script>qpl_inl("7082060102531052788","tierTwoEnd");< /script>

< script>window.__onSSRPayload([{"status":"fail_ssr_disabled"}],[]);<
/script>

<
script>qpl_inl("7082060102531052788","tierThree");qpl_inl("7082060102531052788-server","tierThree",277);<
/script>
<
script>requireLazy(["HasteSupportData"],function(m){m.handle({"clpData":{"194989
requireLazy(["CometResourceScheduler","JSScheduler","Bootloader"],function(c,s,b){
requireLazy(["JSScheduler","ServerJS","ScheduledApplyEach"],function(JSScheduler,S
< script>qpl_inl("7082060102531052788","tierThreeEnd");< /script>

< script>window.pldmp =
{"7082060102531052788":{"js\/12c9cvaqgi80w4o4.pkg.js":{"ur
<
script>qpl_tag(["lastServerTagFlushed"]);qpl_inl("7082060102531052788-server","e
< /body>< /html>



Apart from he "title" tag (which doesn't mention the intended target) I do
not see anything in there thats ment to be read by a human, do you ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Andy Burns
2022-04-02 18:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Apart from he "title" tag (which doesn't mention the intended target) I do
not see anything in there thats ment to be read by a human, do you ?
But if you let the jscript run, does it not result in a human-readable page that
you could parse from the DOM?
R.Wieser
2022-04-02 21:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
But if you let the jscript run, does it not result in a human-readable
page
that you could parse from the DOM?
In relation to what do you want to have that answered ? I see at least
three questions intermingled, and all of them have different answers.

One related to my origional question
One related to the post this one could be considered a reply to
One which is a simple "If you do A than you can do B "

Than again, I might have missed what you actually wanted to know/say/ask.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Isshu Mittal
2022-04-02 21:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I might have missed what you actually wanted to know/say/ask.
You are missing the main point here and that is all modern websites
require users to have scripts enabled in their browsers because that is
what creators expected from its users.

Creators are interested in using modern technologies to make their life
easier. Facebook is using a database to store information and that info
needs to be extracted somehow so they use scripts. You might say why
don't they use php or c#. The answer is they are using them as well but
these don't capture login info from users so it makes it difficult to
operate efficiently.

The days of using just plain html/css/php are over. Websites are
becoming Web-Apps and the likely-hood is that people won't need to
install any applications on their machines because with modern browsers
things can be done more efficiently.
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 07:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Isshu,
Post by Isshu Mittal
Post by R.Wieser
I might have missed what you actually wanted to know/say/ask.
You are missing the main point here and that is all modern websites
require users to have scripts enabled in their browsers because that
is what creators expected from its users.
Thieves all over the world expect me to carry my (ofcourse well-filled)
wallet in such a way that they can easily get at it. For some odd reason
I've never felt inclined to cater to their expectations.

And kid, I asked a question. If all you can think of is "but you are not
allowed to want that!" than you are welcome to stay outof this thread.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
mechanic
2022-04-03 09:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Isshu Mittal
The days of using just plain html/css/php are over. Websites are
becoming Web-Apps and the likely-hood is that people won't need to
install any applications on their machines because with modern browsers
things can be done more efficiently.
Hmm. Is there a 'web-app' for Usenet?
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 10:27:41 UTC
Permalink
mechanic,
Post by mechanic
Hmm. Is there a 'web-app' for Usenet?
*Ofcourse* there is !

Didn't you know that Google ursuped Usenet into "Google Groups" ? All you
need to access it is a login, and all it will cost you is your first born.
And I that surely isn't a too-high a price to pay for such a wealth of
user-generated content, don't you think ?

/s

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
nospam
2022-04-03 11:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by mechanic
Hmm. Is there a 'web-app' for Usenet?
google groups.
Andy Burns
2022-04-03 05:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Than again, I might have missed what you actually wanted to know/say/ask.
The O/P seems to be complaining that if he scrapes a facebook URL, all he gets
is javascript, not readable content ... I was just pointing out that he'll have
to let the javascript run, and then scrape the resulting content, there's no
point in moaning how facebook assemble their content, they're unlikely to revert
to static html ...
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 07:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
The O/P seems to be complaining that if he scrapes a facebook URL, all he
gets is javascript, not readable content ...
Just a question : why are you talking about me in the third person ? I
*am* the OP.
Post by Andy Burns
I was just pointing out that he'll have to let the javascript run
You've invoked question #1 ! As a prize you may now read the OPs (my)
initial question, and the conditions he has mentioned in it.

Read: Your suggestion violates the "no random scripts" condition I've set.
Suggesting that I do so anyway is ... rude (understatement and than some).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Andy Burns
2022-04-03 07:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Your suggestion violates the "no random scripts" condition I've set.
Suggesting that I do so anyway is ... rude
I'm not forcing you to run the scripts, merely saying that unless you do, you
won't see the content ... I guess it depends how much you want to see it?
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 08:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
I'm not forcing you to run the scripts,
Thanks ... I guess.
Post by Andy Burns
merely saying that unless you do, you won't see the content ...
Thats actually the first time you've said anything of the kind ... (feel
free to quote yourself on that though).

And are you /sure/ about that ? You see, there are a few possible
solutions beside that one. One I've mentioned in my initial post. Another
is - ofcourse - to figure out what that JS is doing, and rewrite it (in a
language of my own choice), ripping out everything (tracking and related) I
don't like.

But as I already replied to someone else, I simply don't want to spend that
kind of effort to read just a few posts - and /certainly not/ when someone
has already solved it.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Paul
2022-04-03 08:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
The O/P seems to be complaining that if he scrapes a facebook URL, all he
gets is javascript, not readable content ...
Just a question : why are you talking about me in the third person ? I
*am* the OP.
Post by Andy Burns
I was just pointing out that he'll have to let the javascript run
You've invoked question #1 ! As a prize you may now read the OPs (my)
initial question, and the conditions he has mentioned in it.
Read: Your suggestion violates the "no random scripts" condition I've set.
Suggesting that I do so anyway is ... rude (understatement and than some).
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Protocols were invented to build fortresses.

Andy is explaining to you, that Facebook is such a fortress.

AJAX was invented for just such occasions.

1) Allow the JS to run.
2) Fortress operator emits content ("push") with AJAX.
This allows the content to be hidden, expressly to
prevent Webwhacker-style attacks. If the UserAgent
is "WGET 1.0", they're going to be offended at such
a clumsy attempt.

It's not a surprise that Facebook is not constructed
of CERN 1.0 generation web code.

The only way to get the content on your terms, is to hack
one of the software interfaces on a Facebook server, tip the
site over and "harvest" a few terabytes before you're caught.

Even Google has "scraping detection" on their search engine,
which is why, when I do a bunch of searches here, I'm hit up
with a captcha and "prove you're not a robot". The threshold
for scraping is set surprisingly low. A robot wouldn't even
get its engines warmed up, before nuisance captchas would appear.

*******

Let's try another strawman.

"Hey guys, I thought it would be cool to dump all the bank
balances of the customers at my bank."

No, the HTML on the bank site isn't that naive. There's no
reason for the bank balance to appear in every web page from
the site.

People do make mistakes. Like the state government which
put SSN numbers of their education employees on some web pages.
Somebody was accused of "hacking" the government site, by a governor
(when all they were doing, was viewing poorly constructed HTML).
That's an example of an organization, where nobody does
code reviews, and "slaps around stupid".

*******

Open this in a browser. Now, "Save As, Web Page complete".
What do you notice ? No separate folder of files! It's just
a single html file. Open it in Notepad. This is how naive
the web used to be. If you'd stepped into a time machine
and went back in time to this Epoch, there wasn't even
a NoRobots pragma.

http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html

Paul
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 09:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Paul,
Post by Paul
Andy is explaining to you, that Facebook is such a fortress.
And I asked how I could penetrate the de walls of that fortress. In fact,
I already suggested that someone could just go in for me, grab the goods and
than bring them out. That would suffice for my needs. Penetration
accomplished. :-)

Also paul, you're knowledgable enough that most any kind of software can be
disassembled and recreated in a language of choice, doing exactly what the
rewriter wants and no more (possibly using fake data where needed). The
only question in this regard is : how much effort do I want to spend on it.

Answer: For just a few posts ? Not much.
Post by Paul
1) Allow the JS to run.
That possibility was explicitily excluded in my initial post.
Post by Paul
If the UserAgent is "WGET 1.0", they're going to be offended at such a
clumsy attempt.
:-) So, you suggest I should be(have) extra smart, and change that programs
UserAgent to mimic the one of my browser ? I would /never/ have thought
of that :-p
Post by Paul
Even Google has "scraping detection" on their search engine,
Can't say that I remember having ever encountered it there, and I do (or
did. Its mostly DDG now) use it /very/ regulary and over prolonged streches
of time.

But all I intend to do is to read a few posts. If thats caught as scaping
I'll just stop for the day and read the next post tomorrow or a few days
after it. No rush.
Post by Paul
Let's try another strawman.
"Hey guys, I thought it would be cool to dump all the bank
balances of the customers at my bank."
Yeah, sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to get at there.
Post by Paul
Open this in a browser. Now, "Save As, Web Page complete".
What do you notice ? No separate folder of files! It's just
a single html file.
No embedded resources, no resources folder. Sounds logical to me.

And yes, over time I've saved quite a number of webpages. In that regard
you could consider me as a kind of pack-rat.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Post by Paul
Post by R.Wieser
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
The O/P seems to be complaining that if he scrapes a facebook URL, all he
gets is javascript, not readable content ...
Just a question : why are you talking about me in the third person ? I
*am* the OP.
Post by Andy Burns
I was just pointing out that he'll have to let the javascript run
You've invoked question #1 ! As a prize you may now read the OPs (my)
initial question, and the conditions he has mentioned in it.
Read: Your suggestion violates the "no random scripts" condition I've set.
Suggesting that I do so anyway is ... rude (understatement and than some).
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Protocols were invented to build fortresses.
Andy is explaining to you, that Facebook is such a fortress.
AJAX was invented for just such occasions.
1) Allow the JS to run.
2) Fortress operator emits content ("push") with AJAX.
This allows the content to be hidden, expressly to
prevent Webwhacker-style attacks. If the UserAgent
is "WGET 1.0", they're going to be offended at such
a clumsy attempt.
It's not a surprise that Facebook is not constructed
of CERN 1.0 generation web code.
The only way to get the content on your terms, is to hack
one of the software interfaces on a Facebook server, tip the
site over and "harvest" a few terabytes before you're caught.
Even Google has "scraping detection" on their search engine,
which is why, when I do a bunch of searches here, I'm hit up
with a captcha and "prove you're not a robot". The threshold
for scraping is set surprisingly low. A robot wouldn't even
get its engines warmed up, before nuisance captchas would appear.
*******
Let's try another strawman.
"Hey guys, I thought it would be cool to dump all the bank
balances of the customers at my bank."
No, the HTML on the bank site isn't that naive. There's no
reason for the bank balance to appear in every web page from
the site.
People do make mistakes. Like the state government which
put SSN numbers of their education employees on some web pages.
Somebody was accused of "hacking" the government site, by a governor
(when all they were doing, was viewing poorly constructed HTML).
That's an example of an organization, where nobody does
code reviews, and "slaps around stupid".
*******
Open this in a browser. Now, "Save As, Web Page complete".
What do you notice ? No separate folder of files! It's just
a single html file. Open it in Notepad. This is how naive
the web used to be. If you'd stepped into a time machine
and went back in time to this Epoch, there wasn't even
a NoRobots pragma.
http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html
Paul
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 07:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
and then scrape the resulting content,
Why ? If its in the browsers DOM than "chances are" that it gets
displayed on the screen. And that allows me to read what was posted. Which
is all I asked for.
Post by Andy Burns
there's no point in moaning how facebook assemble their content, they're
unlikely to revert to static html ...
Quote where I moaned about it and I'll give you a cookie.

IOW, all I have been talking about is how to get at the actual posts. I
did not specify how, or made any suggestions in a direction that Facebook
should change its ways to accomodate me (would not mind if they did though
:-) ).

Heck, my initial post even mentioned the possiblity that some proxy website
would do the extraction for, and just deliver the (plain text with a
possible touch of HTML) result to me.

Yes, I did mention a few times that all I got was a page full of JS - stated
in the same way as a motorist who exclaims to his satnav that "there is no
road here I can turn into!". Not because he expects that road to just
appear, but because the satnav expects something thats not there, and as
such the motorist can't continue.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Andy Burns
2022-04-03 08:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
and then scrape the resulting content,
Why ?
Sorry, I thought you wanted to 'extract' the content?
Post by R.Wieser
IOW, all I have been talking about is how to get at the actual posts.
Heck, my initial post even mentioned the possiblity that some proxy website
would do the extraction for, and just deliver the (plain text with a
possible touch of HTML) result to me.
Why would anyone offer that? Can't see it being to many people's benefit.
Post by R.Wieser
Yes, I did mention a few times that all I got was a page full of JS - stated
in the same way as a motorist who exclaims to his satnav that "there is no
road here I can turn into!". Not because he expects that road to just
appear, but because the satnav expects something thats not there, and as
such the motorist can't continue.
Can't you setup a "readonly" VM where you'll allow yourself to run a browser
with JS enabled, then shut it down after you've read what you want?

What you're asking for is generally known as pissing into the wind ...
R.Wieser
2022-04-03 10:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Andy,
Post by Andy Burns
Sorry, I thought you wanted to 'extract' the content?
Nope, just read it. I will probably have to mimic some of Facebooks own
extraction process to be able to do that though.
Post by Andy Burns
Why would anyone offer that? Can't see it being to many people's benefit.
Why do people have hobbies ? Why do people look at movies or listen to
music ? Why do people create collections of worthless stuff (teabag
labels, sigar bands, stamps, you name it) All a great waste of time if you
ask me.

On the other hand ... someone here already posted about exactly such a site
for Twitter.
Post by Andy Burns
Can't you setup a "readonly" VM where you'll allow yourself to run a
browser with JS enabled, then shut it down after you've read what you
want?
See, you /can/ think of possibilities when you put your mind to it. :-)

But yes, that is in the direction of something I did consider. As I have
zero experinece with VMs (and probably not running an OS on which I can do
that) I thought about a dedicated OS install on a Raspberry Pi. Even
better, as it than has absolutily no chance of leaking information (thru the
VMs walls - in either way) anywhere.
Post by Andy Burns
What you're asking for is generally known as pissing into the wind ...
Yeah, you're probably right. I should tell my country (EU) that they
should just drop those customer privacy laws too. I mean, who can really
withstand those big companies, right ?

Newsflash : although it has taken a decade or two, Europe did put consumer
privacy into Law. Not in the first place because of just a few people who
kept "pissing into the wind".

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Mayayana
2022-03-31 12:44:57 UTC
Permalink
"Philip Herlihy" <***@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote

| It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post -
termed
| "permalink" in FB. That link is underneath the faint grey legend of the
| date/time of posting, just beneath the post.

As Rudy pointed out, that still leaves the problem of
extensive javascript, which probably won't work at all
in older browsers. I'm finding that in XP on an increasing
number of sites. The most recent was my doctor's website,
built on reactJS. These sites are complicated software,
designed to only work in the very latest browsers, by people
who don't actually have any idea of how to code a webpage.
One look at the code makes it clear that it's all machine-
generated.

| So it's possible to access a
| given post via the web, if the applicable permissions allow. But if
nobody
| identifies that link for you, then without a profile you'll be knocking at
a
| locked door. It's perfectly possible to have a minimal profile, even
using
| genuine information, and to configure it so that none of it is visible to
| anyone that you haven't explicitly given permission to. And that would
give
| you many more chances to get at the info you're looking for. But some
people
| simply knee-jerk at the thought (often based on third-hand accounts) of
social
| media. The choice is yours.
|

You talk as though social media is just a neutral tool. It's
actually a profound cultural change. Sleazy, for-profit companies
have taken control of peoples' social lives; especially teenagers.
If you ask young people why they don't quit they say they'd never
hear about parties. Their social lives are owned by Zuck and his
ilk. That's like teenagers who grow up in malls rather than in
parks and on Main St. They grow up seeing themselves having a
duty to be consumers, rather than as citizens. But social media has
greatly amplified that effect.

And that's just part of it. Social media has also created crushing
peer pressure. When I go onto public trains and buses I see virtually
everyone, especially the young, swiping through posts. Then they
put their phone away, only to take it out again, 2-3 seconds later,
like automatons on a software loop. As of 2021, 1 in 12 children
in the US is on psychoactive drugs prescribed by a doctor. I don't know
how many are in "therapy", but I know it's been normalized. I know
a 14 year old now who's going home from school regularly with
"panic attacks". That sea change is not an arbitrary accident.

Young people are living in a fishbowl of peer pressure, forever
doomed to the mob rule of the playground. They're growing up
in terror of actually being alone, because they don't know that
experience. Nor are they normally where they are. Their bodies are
in one place; their interactions in another.

If you look at wokist mania and cancel culture you can see
reverberations of that. Brutal peer pressure with no adult supervision.
Young people screaming about feeling "safe", obsessed with tokenistic
self-righteousness. They all feel under the microscope of social media
and that has produced a witch hunting mob of people who mercilessly
accuse others for fear they'll be accused themselves. They don't
even dare to be male or female!

To regard social media as neutral is like the geeks on Slashdot
desperately wanting to believe that 5 hours/day of murdering
people in video games has no effect on young minds. If that were
true there would be no such thing as raising children, because
the raising would have no effect. 40-year-old GTA addicts
just can't bring themselves to admit that they're wasting
their lives in a sick addiction.

Which is not to say that I think the whole idea is evil. Rather, the
ubiquity, the for-profit model, and the lack of supervision for children
is what worries me. I've been using Reddit for some time, to join
specific discussions where I can offer help. Their current version is broken
for me, but they were nice enugh to offer an older, compatible version
at old.reddit.com. They require minimal personal info and it's not a
social site in the sense of people conducting their personal lives there.
It's more like usenet with whining.

But even Reddit has a dark side. They want people to be happy
and keep coming back. So groups tend to form around topics of
interest and then the "moderators" can be petty tyrants, strictly
controlling what can be said. Anyone is free to complain that they
feel "harmed" by someone they disagree with. Posts can be upvoted
and downvoted. So that nasty peer pressure gets going again.
People begin to post in hopes of votes. I know that because they
talk about it. Younger people, especially, are so accustomed to the
mob rule of social media that for them social discourse means saying
whatever they think will gain them acceptance. Again, you can see
that mindset reflected in wokism, BLM, gender battles, and so on.
No one dares to think for themselves. It's all desperate "virtue
signalling" while accusing others of lacking in virtue.

I saw some good commentary about that kind of groupthink around
last week's Oscars. There was pure idiocy, like Jessica Chastain
defending LGBTQ out of the blue, as though someone had just
beat up a lesbian onstage, and "Power of the Dog" almost winning
simply because it attacks "toxic masculinity" and champions
men acting more feminine, bringing out their "hidden homosexuality".
CODA won because the actors are deaf. No one dares to judge
the movies on quality.

Ricky Gervais was asked what he might say if he were hosting,
and as usual, he injected a bit of sane decency:

"I'm proud to announce that this is the most diverse and progressive Oscars
ever. Looking out I see people from all walks of life. Every demographic
under the sun. Except poor people, obviously. Fuck them."
Philip Herlihy
2022-04-02 17:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post -
termed
| "permalink" in FB. That link is underneath the faint grey legend of the
| date/time of posting, just beneath the post.
As Rudy pointed out, that still leaves the problem of
extensive javascript, which probably won't work at all
in older browsers. I'm finding that in XP on an increasing
number of sites. The most recent was my doctor's website,
built on reactJS. These sites are complicated software,
designed to only work in the very latest browsers, by people
who don't actually have any idea of how to code a webpage.
One look at the code makes it clear that it's all machine-
generated.
| So it's possible to access a
| given post via the web, if the applicable permissions allow. But if
nobody
| identifies that link for you, then without a profile you'll be knocking at
a
| locked door. It's perfectly possible to have a minimal profile, even
using
| genuine information, and to configure it so that none of it is visible to
| anyone that you haven't explicitly given permission to. And that would
give
| you many more chances to get at the info you're looking for. But some
people
| simply knee-jerk at the thought (often based on third-hand accounts) of
social
| media. The choice is yours.
|
You talk as though social media is just a neutral tool. It's
actually a profound cultural change. Sleazy, for-profit companies
have taken control of peoples' social lives; especially teenagers.
If you ask young people why they don't quit they say they'd never
hear about parties. Their social lives are owned by Zuck and his
ilk. That's like teenagers who grow up in malls rather than in
parks and on Main St. They grow up seeing themselves having a
duty to be consumers, rather than as citizens. But social media has
greatly amplified that effect.
And that's just part of it. Social media has also created crushing
peer pressure. When I go onto public trains and buses I see virtually
everyone, especially the young, swiping through posts. Then they
put their phone away, only to take it out again, 2-3 seconds later,
like automatons on a software loop. As of 2021, 1 in 12 children
in the US is on psychoactive drugs prescribed by a doctor. I don't know
how many are in "therapy", but I know it's been normalized. I know
a 14 year old now who's going home from school regularly with
"panic attacks". That sea change is not an arbitrary accident.
Young people are living in a fishbowl of peer pressure, forever
doomed to the mob rule of the playground. They're growing up
in terror of actually being alone, because they don't know that
experience. Nor are they normally where they are. Their bodies are
in one place; their interactions in another.
If you look at wokist mania and cancel culture you can see
reverberations of that. Brutal peer pressure with no adult supervision.
Young people screaming about feeling "safe", obsessed with tokenistic
self-righteousness. They all feel under the microscope of social media
and that has produced a witch hunting mob of people who mercilessly
accuse others for fear they'll be accused themselves. They don't
even dare to be male or female!
To regard social media as neutral is like the geeks on Slashdot
desperately wanting to believe that 5 hours/day of murdering
people in video games has no effect on young minds. If that were
true there would be no such thing as raising children, because
the raising would have no effect. 40-year-old GTA addicts
just can't bring themselves to admit that they're wasting
their lives in a sick addiction.
Which is not to say that I think the whole idea is evil. Rather, the
ubiquity, the for-profit model, and the lack of supervision for children
is what worries me. I've been using Reddit for some time, to join
specific discussions where I can offer help. Their current version is broken
for me, but they were nice enugh to offer an older, compatible version
at old.reddit.com. They require minimal personal info and it's not a
social site in the sense of people conducting their personal lives there.
It's more like usenet with whining.
But even Reddit has a dark side. They want people to be happy
and keep coming back. So groups tend to form around topics of
interest and then the "moderators" can be petty tyrants, strictly
controlling what can be said. Anyone is free to complain that they
feel "harmed" by someone they disagree with. Posts can be upvoted
and downvoted. So that nasty peer pressure gets going again.
People begin to post in hopes of votes. I know that because they
talk about it. Younger people, especially, are so accustomed to the
mob rule of social media that for them social discourse means saying
whatever they think will gain them acceptance. Again, you can see
that mindset reflected in wokism, BLM, gender battles, and so on.
No one dares to think for themselves. It's all desperate "virtue
signalling" while accusing others of lacking in virtue.
I saw some good commentary about that kind of groupthink around
last week's Oscars. There was pure idiocy, like Jessica Chastain
defending LGBTQ out of the blue, as though someone had just
beat up a lesbian onstage, and "Power of the Dog" almost winning
simply because it attacks "toxic masculinity" and champions
men acting more feminine, bringing out their "hidden homosexuality".
CODA won because the actors are deaf. No one dares to judge
the movies on quality.
Ricky Gervais was asked what he might say if he were hosting,
"I'm proud to announce that this is the most diverse and progressive Oscars
ever. Looking out I see people from all walks of life. Every demographic
under the sun. Except poor people, obviously. Fuck them."
A great deal of what you say has truth in it (as I've come to expect). But
I've seen a lot of good done in social media, and Facebook in particular. I've
been an admin with significant responsibility in two main groups. One is a
'locality' based group, which really does have to be open (initially at least!)
to anyone based in the relevant area. But with locality the key thing that
people have in common, it has been a battle-ground for trolls and
'campaigners' of all types. I came up with, first, a rather wordy
"constitution" which gave a basis for solving a lot of the problems admins
faced. This was superseeded after a few years with a bald set of three
"values", with related "Rules", and further "Guidelines" on how those Rules
would be interpreted. The group continues with about 18K members, and is
recognised by FB as one of the best in class across Europe. Without a fairly
dedicated admin prepared to defend the core principles, though, it would fail.
If you're interested, the Values, etc can be found here:
http://leytonstone.life/
Life changed for me when the pandemic hit, and I had to hand over to another
admin - who's doing a sterling job. I hope to get back into it before too
long. I miss the fun, the local gossip, the predominant goodwill, and also the
challenge of dealing with difficult people in a constructive way. I learned a
lot from that role.

The other group was for users of a particularly wonderful exercise machine.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/bowflexmaxtrainer
Conflict is almost unheard of, despite 6.7K members. What you get is almost
universal mutual support and encouragement. Over several years, the admins
only had to sanction errant members in single figures. There was almost
nothing for admins to do, other than welcome new members.
--
Phil, London
Mayayana
2022-04-02 22:19:56 UTC
Permalink
"Philip Herlihy" <***@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote

| A great deal of what you say has truth in it (as I've come to expect).
But
| I've seen a lot of good done in social media, and Facebook in particular.

I have nothing against social media as a concept. The trouble
is with exploitive, commercial venues. But I expect that will never
be solved. Most people just don't want to run their own life if
they can find someone else to do it for them.

| If you're interested, the Values, etc can be found here:
| http://leytonstone.life/

Seems very reasonable. Though the dictate to be fair only
works if admins have no vested interest and no drive to
power. I've noticed that on Reddit a lot of groups are
run by petty tyrants who just shut down anyone they disagree
with. It easily becomes an echo chamber. Even in a support group
that's not healthy.
Philip Herlihy
2022-04-03 12:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| A great deal of what you say has truth in it (as I've come to expect).
But
| I've seen a lot of good done in social media, and Facebook in particular.
I have nothing against social media as a concept. The trouble
is with exploitive, commercial venues. But I expect that will never
be solved. Most people just don't want to run their own life if
they can find someone else to do it for them.
| http://leytonstone.life/
Seems very reasonable. Though the dictate to be fair only
works if admins have no vested interest and no drive to
power. I've noticed that on Reddit a lot of groups are
run by petty tyrants who just shut down anyone they disagree
with. It easily becomes an echo chamber. Even in a support group
that's not healthy.
Just so - and that's how our group came to be launched. I was ejected from a
similarly-themed group merely for questioning (diplomatically, I'd thought)
something outrageous that the admin had done to someone, and several friends
were soon ejected just for asking if (not why) I'd been ejected.

After a few weeks of sizzling with the INJUSTICE! of it all, I started to
wonder what a "fair" group would look like. Very soon, it became clear that
there had to be clear rules, and that those rules would have to bind the admins
as well as the general membership. So the values, rules and guidelines are
there to facilitate members challenging admins who may mis-step. I learned a
great deal over the years I ran that group, to the extent that I believe a grew
as a person because of the challenges I had to address.
--
Phil, London
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-03-31 17:50:17 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 09:12:02, Philip Herlihy
<***@SlashDevNull.invalid> wrote (my responses usually
FOLLOW):
[]
Post by Philip Herlihy
Post by Mayayana
| Lets put it this way : I have zero wish to hand over my life to Facebook
| just to read a few posts. Besides the problem that I would still be
[]
Post by Philip Herlihy
It's certainly possible to have a direct web-link to a particular post - termed
"permalink" in FB. That link is underneath the faint grey legend of the
date/time of posting, just beneath the post. So it's possible to access a
given post via the web, if the applicable permissions allow. But if nobody
identifies that link for you, then without a profile you'll be knocking at a
locked door. It's perfectly possible to have a minimal profile, even using
genuine information, and to configure it so that none of it is visible to
anyone that you haven't explicitly given permission to. And that would give
you many more chances to get at the info you're looking for. But some people
simply knee-jerk at the thought (often based on third-hand accounts) of social
media. The choice is yours.
I think R's point was, why should there a need to join - however easy,
and however little information you have to give - just to get
information? Fair enough for a social group, I suppose (though you won't
find me joining such - I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.

(For example, my SatNav [GPS] maker - XGODY; the product itself is fine
- puts the _address_ of their map updates on a Facebook group, which you
have to join to get the addresses. (They put the actual _files_ on
Google Drive.))
Post by Philip Herlihy
TikTok, on the other hand, is clearly the work of Satan.
(-:

* I think the main reason _I_ don't use FaceBook - as I said, I _don't_
hate people who do use it - is the way its pages work: a combination of
top-posting (which is irritating, but common in many situations) and
continuously-loading (presumably sodden with 'script). I'd (possibly)
use it more if it had pages where "loading complete" was even a
possibility.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

He [Alfred Kinsey] wouldn't ask 'Have you ever slept with a horse?' He would
say, 'When did you first sleep with a horse?' [RT 2018/5/5-11]
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 18:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.
I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-03-31 18:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.
I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
I really meant I don't hate people who _use_ FaceBook, which many other
people who like me don't use it seem to.
I have no interest in it either - not because I have a strong dislike of
it, just I haven't the time to start yet another, on top of usenet,
email, twitter, and YouTube. Same applies to WhatsApp, TikTok, and all
the others: I don't hate people who use them, I just don't have time.
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it. Like
fobile moan app.s.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush.
It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.
-Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 18:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.
I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
I really meant I don't hate people who _use_ FaceBook, which many other
people who like me don't use it seem to.
I have no interest in it either - not because I have a strong dislike of
it, just I haven't the time to start yet another, on top of usenet,
Me too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
email,
Me too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
twitter,
I've never used that either.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
and YouTube.
YouTube? That's very different. It's not for communication between people.

I use YouTube fairly often, mostly because I play classical guitar, and
use YouTube to study and learn from professional performances of pieces
I'm working on.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Same applies to WhatsApp, TikTok, and all
Me too. I probably haven't even heard of most of them.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't hate people who use them, I just don't have time.
For me, no time *and* no interest.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it.
I've never run into that.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Like
fobile moan app.s.
I've never run into that either.
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-03-31 19:11:48 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I have no interest in it either - not because I have a strong dislike of
it, just I haven't the time to start yet another, on top of usenet,
Me too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
email,
Me too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
twitter,
I've never used that either.
I started using it in an attempt to drum up e-signatures for a petition
I was running. (_That_ was spectacularly unsuccessful!) But I've built
up friends there - some who were on usenet, some not.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
and YouTube.
YouTube? That's very different. It's not for communication between people.
I use YouTube fairly often, mostly because I play classical guitar, and
use YouTube to study and learn from professional performances of pieces
I'm working on.
Yes, but you can add comments to clips - and people post followups. So
though it's not primarily designed as a social medium, social
interaction does occur. Yes, I use it for more than that - I use it to
listen to/watch clips, primarily, as you do (though only for
pleasure/information in my case), but it does provide that function too.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Same applies to WhatsApp, TikTok, and all
Me too. I probably haven't even heard of most of them.
I think as soon as we oldies even learn the name of one of these
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't hate people who use them, I just don't have time.
For me, no time *and* no interest.
Sometimes it's the only place to get the information. Yes, you can cut
yourself off by not using, and we all do that in some walk of life or
other (I avoid paying by direct debit where I can, for example), but far
more to our own disadvantage than the organisation we dislike.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it.
I've never run into that.
Well, I'll repeat my example - XGODY, a SatNav (GPS) company, only
release the URLs for their update map data via a FaceBook group you have
to join.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Like
fobile moan app.s.
I've never run into that either.
Sorry, UK humour. UK for what US calls a "cellular 'phone" is a "mobile
'phone". Or, for fun, a "fobile moan".
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A waist is a terrible thing to mind.
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 19:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I have no interest in it either - not because I have a strong dislike of
it, just I haven't the time to start yet another, on top of usenet,
Me too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
email,
Me too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
twitter,
I've never used that either.
I started using it in an attempt to drum up e-signatures for a petition
I was running. (_That_ was spectacularly unsuccessful!) But I've built
up friends there - some who were on usenet, some not.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
and YouTube.
YouTube? That's very different. It's not for communication between people.
I use YouTube fairly often, mostly because I play classical guitar, and
use YouTube to study and learn from professional performances of pieces
I'm working on.
Yes, but you can add comments to clips -
Yes, you can, but I never look at them.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
and people post followups. So
though it's not primarily designed as a social medium, social
interaction does occur. Yes, I use it for more than that - I use it to
listen to/watch clips, primarily, as you do (though only for
pleasure/information in my case), but it does provide that function too.
Pleasure in my case, too. My guitar playing is for my pleasure, and if I
get better at a piece, my pleasure increases.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Same applies to WhatsApp, TikTok, and all
Me too. I probably haven't even heard of most of them.
I think as soon as we oldies even learn the name of one of these
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't hate people who use them, I just don't have time.
For me, no time *and* no interest.
Sometimes it's the only place to get the information. Yes, you can cut
yourself off by not using, and we all do that in some walk of life or
other (I avoid paying by direct debit where I can, for example), but far
more to our own disadvantage than the organisation we dislike.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it.
I've never run into that.
Well, I'll repeat my example - XGODY, a SatNav (GPS) company, only
release the URLs for their update map data via a FaceBook group you have
to join.
I must have missed your example. I've never heard of XGODY.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Like
fobile moan app.s.
I've never run into that either.
Sorry, UK humour. UK for what US calls a "cellular 'phone" is a "mobile
'phone". Or, for fun, a "fobile moan".
Yes, I understood the joke and knew you meant "mobile phone." All I
meant was that I've never run into information I could only get there.
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-04-01 15:50:12 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
I use YouTube fairly often, mostly because I play classical guitar,
and use YouTube to study and learn from professional performances of
pieces I'm working on.
Yes, but you can add comments to clips -
Yes, you can, but I never look at them.
When I started using it, I never did either; but now, I often do -
partly because I do actually like seeing other people's reaction to a
clip, and partly because they often contain useful extra information
(including corrections to the information the uploader provided!): in
the case of musical performances, things like venue, date, composer,
even lyrics, which the original poster may have omitted (or got wrong);
in the case of news or technical clips, extra information (including
corrections). In both cases, also links to other clips - the same piece
by another performer, or in a different language, or other pieces by the
same performer, or related technical/news ones.

I have - not often, granted - sometimes had a "conversation" with
another reader that has gone to two or three exchanges. Much like usenet
(or, I guess, any other discussion facility).
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Pleasure in my case, too. My guitar playing is for my pleasure, and if
I get better at a piece, my pleasure increases.
Pleased to make your acquaintance; I just wish I had the perseverance to
get good at some instrument!
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Well, I'll repeat my example - XGODY, a SatNav (GPS) company, only
release the URLs for their update map data via a FaceBook group you have
to join.
I must have missed your example. I've never heard of XGODY.
A (one of many, probably) Chinese manufacturer of SatNav (GPS) systems,
at well below the price of the ore well-known ones. Here's an example:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154858025945 - note that's aimed at UK, so
probably will have a hefty carriage charge to you and maybe not seem
competitive anyway, but I'm sure they're available in US too, as I've
seen people asking where to get the US map updates. It's certainly a
reasonable price for a 7" SatNav in UK, especially as it comes with more
than just UK/RoI map data (not that I've been abroad with it).
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I understood the joke and knew you meant "mobile phone." All I
meant was that I've never run into information I could only get there.
The example that comes to mind here isn't actually information (though
I'd be surprised if there _isn't_ some information you can only get
there); I'm thinking of rapid chargers for electric vehicles. I'm pretty
sure I've encountered some with nowhere to even swipe a credit card -
where the only way to activate them if with a fobile. I know - because
of the greater distances involved, and lower "gas" prices - that EVs
have caught on a lot less in the USA than here, but - although still
only a small fraction of the vehicles in use, they _are_ catching on
here. (And - totally unrealistically, IMO, in view of the rate of
charging infrastructure development - the government here have said
they'll ban sales of new fuel-only vehicles in 2030, and even hybrids in
2035.) FWIW, I _don't_ have an EV - I have a Diesel (also uncommon in
US). But I find the _concept_ of the assumption of smartphone - and
permanently-on data - irritating.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You _are_ Zaphod Beeblebrox? _The_ Zaphod Beeblebrox?"
"No, just _a_ Zaphod Beeblebrox. I come in six-packs." (from the link episode)
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 16:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
I use YouTube fairly often, mostly because I play classical guitar,
and use YouTube to study and learn from professional performances of
pieces I'm working on.
Yes, but you can add comments to clips -
Yes, you can, but I never look at them.
When I started using it, I never did either; but now, I often do -
partly because I do actually like seeing other people's reaction to a
clip, and partly because they often contain useful extra information
(including corrections to the information the uploader provided!): in
the case of musical performances, things like venue, date, composer,
even lyrics, which the original poster may have omitted (or got wrong);
That's rarely, if ever, of interest to me. I mostly just want to listen
and watch how their fingers move.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
in the case of news or technical clips, extra information (including
corrections). In both cases, also links to other clips - the same piece
by another performer, or in a different language, or other pieces by the
same performer, or related technical/news ones.
I have - not often, granted - sometimes had a "conversation" with
another reader that has gone to two or three exchanges. Much like usenet
(or, I guess, any other discussion facility).
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Pleasure in my case, too. My guitar playing is for my pleasure, and if
I get better at a piece, my pleasure increases.
Pleased to make your acquaintance; I just wish I had the perseverance to
get good at some instrument!
Understood. You have to decide whether the effort is worth it to you.
I've been playing the guitar for about 72 years, but I started on
classical guitar only about five years ago. I put a lot of time and
effort into it.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Well, I'll repeat my example - XGODY, a SatNav (GPS) company, only
release the URLs for their update map data via a FaceBook group you have
to join.
I must have missed your example. I've never heard of XGODY.
A (one of many, probably) Chinese manufacturer of SatNav (GPS) systems,
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154858025945 - note that's aimed at UK, so
probably will have a hefty carriage charge to you and maybe not seem
competitive anyway, but I'm sure they're available in US too, as I've
seen people asking where to get the US map updates. It's certainly a
reasonable price for a 7" SatNav in UK, especially as it comes with more
than just UK/RoI map data (not that I've been abroad with it).
OK.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I understood the joke and knew you meant "mobile phone." All I
meant was that I've never run into information I could only get there.
The example that comes to mind here isn't actually information (though
I'd be surprised if there _isn't_ some information you can only get
there); I'm thinking of rapid chargers for electric vehicles. I'm pretty
sure I've encountered some with nowhere to even swipe a credit card -
where the only way to activate them if with a fobile. I know - because
of the greater distances involved, and lower "gas" prices - that EVs
have caught on a lot less in the USA than here,
They're getting more and more common. They're still pretty expensive
here, though. The last car I bought was a 2020 Toyota Camry, and I don't
expect to live long enough to ever buy another one, but I ever do, it
will probably an electric.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
but - although still
only a small fraction of the vehicles in use, they _are_ catching on
here. (And - totally unrealistically, IMO, in view of the rate of
charging infrastructure development - the government here have said
they'll ban sales of new fuel-only vehicles in 2030, and even hybrids in
2035.) FWIW, I _don't_ have an EV - I have a Diesel (also uncommon in
US). But I find the _concept_ of the assumption of smartphone - and
permanently-on data - irritating.
Me too.
--
Ken
sidder (
2022-03-31 18:41:17 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:16:48 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.
I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
I really meant I don't hate people who _use_ FaceBook, which many other
people who like me don't use it seem to.
Not just people who like you, right? Perhaps that sentence could have
benefitted from a couple of apostrophes. ;-)
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I have no interest in it either - not because I have a strong dislike of
it, just I haven't the time to start yet another, on top of usenet,
email, twitter, and YouTube. Same applies to WhatsApp, TikTok, and all
the others: I don't hate people who use them, I just don't have time.
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it. Like
fobile moan app.s.
"app.s"?
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 19:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by sidder (
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:16:48 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.
I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
I really meant I don't hate people who _use_ FaceBook, which many other
people who like me don't use it seem to.
Not just people who like you, right? Perhaps that sentence could have
benefitted from a couple of apostrophes. ;-)
Apostrophes? There are no missing apostrophes in it. Did you perhaps
mean "quotation marks"?
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-03-31 19:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by sidder (
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:16:48 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by sidder (
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I really meant I don't hate people who _use_ FaceBook, which many
other people who like me don't use it seem to.
Not just people who like you, right? Perhaps that sentence could have
benefitted from a couple of apostrophes. ;-)
Apostrophes? There are no missing apostrophes in it. Did you perhaps
mean "quotation marks"?
I think commas would have made it better - or brackets (parentheses):

"... which many other people who, like me, don't use it ..." or "who
(like me) don't ..."

Neither apostrophes nor quotation marks though (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A waist is a terrible thing to mind.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-03-31 19:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by sidder (
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:16:48 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by sidder (
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it. Like
fobile moan app.s.
"app.s"?
I hate the 'word' "app"; it's short for application, but actually means
a program. But it seems to have become generally used, to mean something
you run on a fobile moan. But I reserve the right to leave in the full
stop (period) to indicate that it _is_ an abbreviation (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A waist is a terrible thing to mind.
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 19:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by sidder (
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:16:48 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by sidder (
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it. Like
fobile moan app.s.
"app.s"?
I hate the 'word' "app";
I hate it too.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
it's short for application,
Yes.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
but actually means
a program
No, it actually means an application program, as opposed to a utility
program.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But it seems to have become generally used, to mean something
you run on a fobile moan.
I dislike most abbreviations, but I especially dislike "app," because it
isn't always used to mean the same thing, and it's often unclear as to
what is meant. Sometimes someone uses it just to mean a smart phone
application program, sometimes an application program run on a desktop
or laptop computer, sometimes even a utility program. Sometimes even a
single person uses it inconsistently. I generally avoid using it all.


And speaking of commas, shouldn't it be omitted from your last sentence
above?
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But I reserve the right to leave in the full
stop (period)
"Full stop" is OK. Like most Americans, I'm familiar with the term. If I
remember correctly, I first learned it from the last sentence in "1066
and All That": "History came to a ."
Thank you for not writing "acronym," a term that is almost universally
misused these days.
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-04-01 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But it seems to have become generally used, to mean something
you run on a fobile moan.
I dislike most abbreviations, but I especially dislike "app," because
it isn't always used to mean the same thing, and it's often unclear as
to what is meant. Sometimes someone uses it just to mean a smart phone
application program, sometimes an application program run on a desktop
or laptop computer, sometimes even a utility program. Sometimes even a
single person uses it inconsistently. I generally avoid using it all.
Agreed with all the above, which rationalises my dislike of the term.
Post by Ken Blake
And speaking of commas, shouldn't it be omitted from your last sentence
above?
Interesting! On first glance, yes. I use comas more than most people
(maybe German influence?) to indicate pauses, but it does make the above
ambiguous.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But I reserve the right to leave in the full
stop (period)
"Full stop" is OK. Like most Americans, I'm familiar with the term. If
I remember correctly, I first learned it from the last sentence in
"1066 and All That": "History came to a ."
Excellent book.
Post by Ken Blake
Thank you for not writing "acronym," a term that is almost universally
misused these days.
To me, an acronym is a _pronounceable_ abbreviation (sometimes with
extra letters of the contributing words left in to make it more so). But
as with many things, its initially-abuse above is probably now in
dictionaries, thus losing another distinction.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

in the kingdom of the bland, the one idea is king. - Rory Bremner (on
politics), RT 2015/1/31-2/6
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 16:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But it seems to have become generally used, to mean something
you run on a fobile moan.
I dislike most abbreviations, but I especially dislike "app," because
it isn't always used to mean the same thing, and it's often unclear as
to what is meant. Sometimes someone uses it just to mean a smart phone
application program, sometimes an application program run on a desktop
or laptop computer, sometimes even a utility program. Sometimes even a
single person uses it inconsistently. I generally avoid using it all.
Agreed with all the above, which rationalises my dislike of the term.
Post by Ken Blake
And speaking of commas, shouldn't it be omitted from your last sentence
above?
Interesting! On first glance, yes. I use comas more than most people
(maybe German influence?) to indicate pauses, but it does make the above
ambiguous.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But I reserve the right to leave in the full
stop (period)
"Full stop" is OK. Like most Americans, I'm familiar with the term. If
I remember correctly, I first learned it from the last sentence in
"1066 and All That": "History came to a ."
Excellent book.
Yes. I thought you'd probably know it. You and I seem to have a lot in
common.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
Thank you for not writing "acronym," a term that is almost universally
misused these days.
To me, an acronym is a _pronounceable_ abbreviation
Yes. Same to me. My point exactly.

Interestingly, the abbreviation for "Food and Agricultural Organization"
is "FAO. I don't know how it's pronounced in the UK, but here in the
USA, it's eff-eh-oh. However in Rome, where its headquarters are, it's
an acronym, FAH-oh.

One other, more minor, complaint about modern usage. Many people who
understand what "acronym" means, call abbreviations that are not
acronyms "initialisms." As far as I'm concerned, that's completely
unnecessary. Just calling them "abbreviations" should suffice.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(sometimes with
extra letters of the contributing words left in to make it more so). But
as with many things, its initially-abuse above is probably now in
dictionaries, thus losing another distinction.
Yes, probably, alas.

Before someone tells me that language isn't static and is always
changing, yes, I know that. A Shakespeare play doesn't sound like a
modern one, and Shakespeare isn't like Chaucer. But two points:

1. Languages now changes faster that it ever did, largely because of
television, and that's bad, not good, because not everyone can keep up
with such rapid change. There are many modern terms that leave me
baffled, largely because I watch almost no television.

2. Changes that merge separate meanings into a single word, such as
"acronym," are bad, not good. It's losing a valuable distinction, as you
point out.
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-04-01 17:05:28 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Excellent book.
Yes. I thought you'd probably know it. You and I seem to have a lot in
common.
I think so! Do email me: we're probably trying the patience of the good
people of Windowsland with this thread. I am happy to talk about
language for hours though - it's in my blood, backwards and sideways
(though my carer was in electronics). But others here maybe not.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
To me, an acronym is a _pronounceable_ abbreviation
Yes. Same to me. My point exactly.
Many of the examples of _long_ ones - when we used to take the Guinness
Book of Records, anyway - seem to come from the US military. I remember
one that contained something like NatComSubordPhibPac, though was much
longer than that.
Post by Ken Blake
Interestingly, the abbreviation for "Food and Agricultural
Organization" is "FAO. I don't know how it's pronounced in the UK, but
I was _going_ to say we have our own - MAFF (ministry of agriculture,
fisheries, and food), at least some of which I think is now part of
DEFRA (department of - I think - the environment, I forget the rest -
oh, might be rural affairs), but ...
Post by Ken Blake
here in the USA, it's eff-eh-oh. However in Rome, where its
headquarters are, it's an acronym, FAH-oh.
... that suggests it is an international organisation, so we probably
_do_ have something to do with it. Yes, we'd spell it out, eff-ay-oh,
too: probably because -ao is not a common ending in (either British _or_
American) English, but maybe is in Italian, which I think would
pronounce it that way.
Post by Ken Blake
One other, more minor, complaint about modern usage. Many people who
understand what "acronym" means, call abbreviations that are not
acronyms "initialisms." As far as I'm concerned, that's completely
unnecessary. Just calling them "abbreviations" should suffice.
Indeed. They abolish - initially by misuse - a distinction, then find
they need the distinction, so they invent a new word )-:.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Before someone tells me that language isn't static and is always
changing, yes, I know that. A Shakespeare play doesn't sound like a
Yes, Shakespeare English does usually need a lot of explanation. Though
in the hands of _skilful_ actors/speakers, _can_ - with a few glitches -
be spoken in such a way that you can understand it. Chaucer is more
difficult, and mostly beyond me (my mother's degree was in Mediaeval
French - as she was fond of saying, a less marketable one would be hard
to find!).
Post by Ken Blake
1. Languages now changes faster that it ever did, largely because of
television, and that's bad, not good, because not everyone can keep up
with such rapid change. There are many modern terms that leave me
baffled, largely because I watch almost no television.
I think the internet - and, especially, social media (in the modern
sense of Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp, Tiktok, and so on; AFAIAC usenet
is a social medium, very much so) - has probably far outstripped
television as the cause of rapid change.
Post by Ken Blake
2. Changes that merge separate meanings into a single word, such as
"acronym," are bad, not good. It's losing a valuable distinction, as
you point out.
(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you believe in telekinesis, raise my right hand
Frank Slootweg
2022-04-01 17:54:43 UTC
Permalink
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <***@255soft.uk> wrote:
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
One other, more minor, complaint about modern usage. Many people who
understand what "acronym" means, call abbreviations that are not
acronyms "initialisms." As far as I'm concerned, that's completely
unnecessary. Just calling them "abbreviations" should suffice.
Indeed. They abolish - initially by misuse - a distinction, then find
they need the distinction, so they invent a new word )-:.
I 'disagree'. Acronyms and initialisms are both forms of
abbreviations, but they're both a special kind of abbreviation, that's
why both terms exist. We've already covered the regular form of an
abbreviation, which is cutting of part of the word, i.e. 'app', 'etc',
etc. :-) So why do we need a special term for the acronym-type
abbreviation, but not for the initialism-type?

FWIW :-), I don't care if someone calls a certain initialism 'an
abbreviation'. I *do* care if someone calls a non-pronouncable
initialism/abbreviation 'an acronym'. So 'FWIW' is *not* an acronym.

I *have* spoken!

[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Before someone tells me that language isn't static and is always
changing, yes, I know that. A Shakespeare play doesn't sound like a
Yes, Shakespeare English does usually need a lot of explanation. Though
in the hands of _skilful_ actors/speakers, _can_ - with a few glitches -
be spoken in such a way that you can understand it. Chaucer is more
difficult, and mostly beyond me (my mother's degree was in Mediaeval
French - as she was fond of saying, a less marketable one would be hard
to find!).
Post by Ken Blake
1. Languages now changes faster that it ever did, largely because of
television, and that's bad, not good, because not everyone can keep up
with such rapid change. There are many modern terms that leave me
baffled, largely because I watch almost no television.
I think the internet - and, especially, social media (in the modern
sense of Twitter, Facebook, WhatsApp, Tiktok, and so on; AFAIAC usenet
is a social medium, very much so) - has probably far outstripped
television as the cause of rapid change.
Post by Ken Blake
2. Changes that merge separate meanings into a single word, such as
"acronym," are bad, not good. It's losing a valuable distinction, as
you point out.
--
If you believe in telekinesis, raise my right hand
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 18:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Excellent book.
Yes. I thought you'd probably know it. You and I seem to have a lot in
common.
I think so! Do email me: we're probably trying the patience of the good
people of Windowsland with this thread. I am happy to talk about
language for hours though - it's in my blood, backwards and sideways
(though my carer was in electronics). But others here maybe not.
Yes. For everyone else here, I responded to John via e-mail and this
conversation is now over here.
--
Ken
Ken Hart
2022-04-01 19:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Yes. For everyone else here, I responded to John via e-mail and this
conversation is now over here.
Why don't you stop trolling and have your conversations there then?
Ken Hart
2022-04-01 19:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Yes. I thought you'd probably know it. You and I seem to have a lot in
common.
When are you going to stop trolling?
Java Jive
2022-04-01 17:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
"Full stop" is OK. Like most Americans, I'm familiar with the term. If I
remember correctly, I first learned it from the last sentence in "1066
and All That": "History came to a ."
For a moment there, but a search suggests that in fact that's a
different book which I also remember, I thought you'd at last given me
the title of a book of historical cartoons I remember from the library
of a 'prep' school that I attended. From that very distant memory, the
page size was about an A4 sheet in landscape orientation, the title
almost certainly contained '1066', and included 'William The Conker'
among its cast of characters lampooned, and it was old and well-thumbed
by generations of schoolkids even then in the 1950s, so was probably
published around the same time as the above in the 1930s or 40s. Does
anybody else remember such a book?
--
Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 18:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Java Jive
Post by Ken Blake
"Full stop" is OK. Like most Americans, I'm familiar with the term. If I
remember correctly, I first learned it from the last sentence in "1066
and All That": "History came to a ."
For a moment there, but a search suggests that in fact that's a
different book which I also remember, I thought you'd at last given me
the title of a book of historical cartoons I remember from the library
of a 'prep' school that I attended. From that very distant memory, the
page size was about an A4 sheet in landscape orientation, the title
almost certainly contained '1066', and included 'William The Conker'
among its cast of characters lampooned, and it was old and well-thumbed
by generations of schoolkids even then in the 1950s, so was probably
published around the same time as the above in the 1930s or 40s. Does
anybody else remember such a book?
"1066 And All That" is by W. C. Sellar and RJ Yeatman. It's well-knowm.
It's not a book of cartoons, although there's an occasional cartoon in it.

I also found "1066 and Before All That: The Battle of Hastings,
Anglo-Saxon and Norman England (A Very, Very Short History of England
Book 1)" on Amazon.com, but I've never read it and can't tell you
anything about it.
--
Ken
Java Jive
2022-04-01 22:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Java Jive
Post by Ken Blake
"Full stop" is OK. Like most Americans, I'm familiar with the term.
If I remember correctly, I first learned it from the last sentence in
"1066 and All That": "History came to a ."
For a moment there, but a search suggests that in fact that's a
different book which I also remember, I thought you'd at last given me
the title of a book of historical cartoons I remember from the library
of a 'prep' school that I attended.  From that very distant memory, the
page size was about an A4 sheet in landscape orientation, the title
almost certainly contained '1066', and included 'William The Conker'
among its cast of characters lampooned, and it was old and well-thumbed
by generations of schoolkids even then in the 1950s, so was probably
published around the same time as the above in the 1930s or 40s.  Does
anybody else remember such a book?
"1066 And All That" is by W. C. Sellar and RJ Yeatman. It's well-knowm.
It's not a book of cartoons, although there's an occasional cartoon in it.
Yes, that came up readily in a search, but I'm fairly sure that's a
different book.
Post by Ken Blake
I also found "1066 and Before All That: The Battle of Hastings,
Anglo-Saxon and Norman England (A Very, Very Short History of England
Book 1)" on Amazon.com, but I've never read it and can't tell you
anything about it.
Definitely not the one I remember, but thanks anyway.

Since writing the description above, I've remembered that other cartoons
included native Britains in coracles.
--
Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
Char Jackson
2022-04-01 02:35:35 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:15:47 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by sidder (
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 19:16:48 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by sidder (
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But some people - and worse, some companies - _only_ put information
there, so even if you have no interest in it, you have to use it. Like
fobile moan app.s.
"app.s"?
I hate the 'word' "app"; it's short for application, but actually means
a program. But it seems to have become generally used, to mean something
you run on a fobile moan.
So far, so good.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But I reserve the right to leave in the full
That must be a British English thing. I don't think we use periods in
that way, (within a set of characters), on this side of the pond. BTW,
app isn't actually an abbreviation, it's a word.
Mayayana
2022-04-01 12:32:07 UTC
Permalink
"Char Jackson" <***@none.invalid> wrote

| BTW,
| app isn't actually an abbreviation, it's a word.
|

:) Such a short sense of history you have. Steve Jobs
started saying "app". ("There's an app for that.") I don't
doubt that it's been added to dictionaries recently, just
as twerk (to perform a standing lap dance) and triggered
(upset over imagined trauma) have probably been added...

After all, Amy Shumer was "triggered" by Will Smith's
slap, and everyone knew she didn't mean that she was
caused by it. So we all know it now as a word in her
usage. But it's a recent slang invention. Even such things
as CAD and HTML may be in modern dictionaries. Are they
not acronyms just because we're used to them?

App comes from a slang abbreviation. There was
no such word before iPhone. My Webster's dictionary has
only "app.", defined as short for appendix, appointed,
approval, or approximate. Why? Because it predates the
invention of the iPhone.
nospam
2022-04-01 16:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| BTW,
| app isn't actually an abbreviation, it's a word.
|
:) Such a short sense of history you have. Steve Jobs
started saying "app". ("There's an app for that.")
such an incorrect sense of history you have.

the term 'app' long predates jobs saying 'there's an app for that',
going back to at least the 1980s, if not earlier.

ashton-tate frameworks, circa 1985 with an 'apps' menu:
<Loading Image...>
Post by Mayayana
App comes from a slang abbreviation.
it's not slang. it's simply shorthand.
Post by Mayayana
There was
no such word before iPhone.
oh yes there was.

see above for an example from 1985, more than 20 years before the
iphone was released.

there are many other examples.
Post by Mayayana
My Webster's dictionary has
only "app.", defined as short for appendix, appointed,
approval, or approximate. Why? Because it predates the
invention of the iPhone.
no, that's not why.

the oxford english dictionary lists 1987, although the term actually
predates that.
<https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/103376#eid40167813>
killer application  n. Computing an application which is
particularly significant or useful; a feature, function, or
application of a new technology or product which is presented
as virtually indispensable or much superior to rival products;
also in extended use.

1987 PC Week 8 Sept. 107/2   Everybody has only one killer
application. The secretary has a word processor. The manager
has a spreadsheet.
1991 UnixWorld Dec. 30/3   The killer applications cost twice
as much in unix versions for no reason other than greed.
mechanic
2022-04-01 10:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
Thank goodness we have curious younger people driving the human race
forward.
Mayayana
2022-04-01 12:39:08 UTC
Permalink
"mechanic" <***@example.net> wrote
Ken Blake wrote:
|
| > I don't know whether I would hate Facebook or not, but I suspect that I
| > might. I've never seen it. I have no interest in it.
|
| Thank goodness we have curious younger people driving the human race
| forward.

Forward to superimposing dog faces on your friends'
photos while you suck on a vape pen? Or did you mean
driving the human race forward to making no distinction
between pre-digested, targetted, marketting propaganda
and news?
nospam
2022-03-31 18:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I think R's point was, why should there a need to join - however easy,
and however little information you have to give - just to get
information?
because some people who post content have restricted it to be visible
only by certain people and the only way to verify that is by logging
in.
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 18:54:20 UTC
Permalink
nospam,
Post by nospam
because some people who post content have restricted it to be
visible only by certain people and the only way to verify that
is by logging in.
Kid, you're concentrating on what *isn't* possible, instead of focussing on
what *is* - and how to do it.

As such you are not really helpfull (understatement).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
nospam
2022-04-01 02:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
because some people who post content have restricted it to be
visible only by certain people and the only way to verify that
is by logging in.
Kid, you're concentrating on what *isn't* possible, instead of focussing on
what *is* - and how to do it.
do not call me kid and your statement is false. several people have
told you what your options are.
Post by R.Wieser
As such you are not really helpfull (understatement).
as such you do not actually want help. you're simply trolling.
R.Wieser
2022-04-01 12:51:10 UTC
Permalink
nospam,
Post by nospam
Post by R.Wieser
Kid, you're concentrating on what *isn't* possible, instead of focussing
on what *is* - and how to do it.
do not call me kid
Behave like one, get called one. Just be glad that I'm giving you the
benefit of the doubt in that you might grow up and out of it.
Post by nospam
and your statement is false. several people have told you
what your options are.
Funny in how you exhibit childlike behaviour in trying to change the subject
from you to other people very obvious way - and still protest being called a
kid.

Kid, that what you quoted (and I re-quoted) is all about *you*. And for
that matter, you have not even tried to deny it.

So, take a hike. You have not brought anything to the table that :

1) has not already been said by others

2) brings me nearer to an solution

You however have, rather arrogantly I might add, started with telling me I'm
wrong without providing /any/ kind of reasoning for it, that my browser is
misconfigured and bluntly told me that my browser *has* to run JS.

Goodbye. May our paths never cross again.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
nospam
2022-04-01 16:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Post by nospam
Post by R.Wieser
Kid, you're concentrating on what *isn't* possible, instead of focussing
on what *is* - and how to do it.
do not call me kid
Behave like one, get called one.
given your behaviour below, it is you who should be called kid, among
other things.
Post by R.Wieser
Just be glad that I'm giving you the
benefit of the doubt in that you might grow up and out of it.
you've done no such thing.

what you're doing is your usual shtick of resorting to insults when you
realize just how over your head you actually are.
Post by R.Wieser
You however have, rather arrogantly I might add, started with telling me I'm
wrong without providing /any/ kind of reasoning for it, that my browser is
misconfigured and bluntly told me that my browser *has* to run JS.
the reason is obvious: facebook requires javascript, as do many other
sites.

disabling javascript or using an outdated browser is going to cause
problems for many sites. this is not a difficult concept nor does it
need an explanation.

it should also be obvious that the only way to limit access for content
that is not public is to require authenticating to determine whether or
not someone is entitled to see it. for facebook, the way to do that is
by logging into a facebook account. you have stated you do not want to
create a facebook account, therefore such content will be inaccessible
to you. this is also not a difficult concept that requires no
explanation.
Post by R.Wieser
Goodbye. May our paths never cross again.
ok, kid.
Mayayana
2022-03-31 20:13:05 UTC
Permalink
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <***@255soft.uk> wrote

| I actually don't hate FaceBook*, I just don't
| have the time), but when _companies_ start putting information _only_
| there, it's (some way down!) the slippery slope.
|

I'm afraid we're already way down that slope. The
Internet was going to give everyone a front door
on the world. Now young people find their lives hijacked.
They think the Internet is commercial services.
If people make websites at all it's Wix or Wordpress.
Usually they just have a Facebook page for small
businesses.

I saw an interview on the news the other day about
Etsy. Apparently the craftspeople are mad because Etsy
is raising costs and catering to commercial sellers over
craftspeople. (Printed t-shirts over home-made clothes,
for example.) The woman interviewed said that 5,000
sellers had signed a petition but that there was no reason
to think Etsy would care. They're learning a hard lesson:
By letting a corporation middleman their storefront they
gave away control, and will have no way to forward
customers to a website if they quit Etsy.

It's similar with Facebook, Instagram, etc. They've
become the medium of socializing for young people.
Not just a new way to connect. The only way to connect.
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 07:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Mayayana,

Thanks for mentioning that twitter entry point. I"ve stored it for when I
might need it.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
John B. Smith
2022-03-31 12:56:09 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:08 +0100, Philip Herlihy
Post by Philip Herlihy
Post by R.Wieser
Hello all,
I'm using DDG and Google to search for some particular information, and ever
so often get results back that poin to a facebook group. I neither have a
login, nor does my browser run random scripts.
My question : does anyone know of a way to read (and *just* that)
facebook-group posts ? A proxy perhaps ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
P.s.
If someone knows about similar simple, read-only access to other social
media I would like to hear about those too.
Facebook groups (I've been an admin of a large group) are configured to be
public, private or secret (I rather think terms have changed, but the principal
is the same).
Public groups don't restrict visibility of posts at all, or their members'
identities, though individuals can also influence this. Private groups only
allow visibility of content to members. Secret groups can't be found in a
search - you have to have the exact name or link.
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile, though admins
considering you for membership of their group often turn up their nose at near-
blank profiles. Be thoughtful what you disclose, but you can make most of your
details private. If you accept Facebook "friends" you can classify them as
Family, Close Friends, Friends or Acquaintances (without them seeing this).
Then choose which level of Friends are to be able to see any default posts you
make (adjustable on a per-post basis).
Facebook is huge fun if you get it right. You can keep up with people you'd
otherwise lose touch with, and groups can be a rich source of interest,
including locality-based groups. I learned a lot (and even grew a little as a
person) from creating and administering a very busy and lively locality group,
learning to deal with fools, trolls and worse, while cultivating a real
community. But I got sucked in to the point where it was taking up WAY too
much time, and I'm currently taking a lengthy break. I look forward to getting
back to it when current big projects are done and dusted.
I joined Facebook because friends told me I 'had' to. It's hardly been
of any use to me at all. It does have some disadvantages: when any of
your Facebook friends bakes a cake or goes to the toilet you get an
email (never been able to turn them off). Also no longer works in XP.
My solution is to have my Eudora email client label these emails as
'junk' and I no longer see them. Occasionally when I'm in Win7 I'll
scan the 99 Facebook messages I've accumulated. Hardly ever need to
reply to any. I do have some groups I'm interested in, don't know if I
have to been signed onto Facebook to see them. I think the majority of
Facebook messages I get are sent from phones - one liners. As you can
see from this wordy reply I ain't a fan.
Post by Philip Herlihy
One lesson, to pick from many? "Always let the other side have the last word.
For then it will be their foolishness, and not yours, that will linger in
people's minds."
TLDR: No, you can't read the content in private groups (most groups) unless
your Facebook identity is given membership of the group.
Mayayana
2022-03-31 14:42:07 UTC
Permalink
"John B. Smith" <***@verizon.net> wrote

| I joined Facebook because friends told me I 'had' to. It's hardly been
| of any use to me at all.

I've never used it, but friends who have typically say that
they joined to find old friends, only to discover their friends
were not on it. I don't think it's ever been very popular with
older people, except to read what their kids post publicly.
pyotr filipivich
2022-03-31 18:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| I joined Facebook because friends told me I 'had' to. It's hardly been
| of any use to me at all.
I've never used it, but friends who have typically say that
they joined to find old friends, only to discover their friends
were not on it. I don't think it's ever been very popular with
older people, except to read what their kids post publicly.
Some times I find old friends, and well, all we have in common is
something we were involved in 40 years ago, or that we once went to
the same high school, or some similar part of what is a past life.

"Glory Days!..."
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
KenW
2022-03-31 19:09:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 11:13:51 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
| I joined Facebook because friends told me I 'had' to. It's hardly been
| of any use to me at all.
I've never used it, but friends who have typically say that
they joined to find old friends, only to discover their friends
were not on it. I don't think it's ever been very popular with
older people, except to read what their kids post publicly.
Some times I find old friends, and well, all we have in common is
something we were involved in 40 years ago, or that we once went to
the same high school, or some similar part of what is a past life.
"Glory Days!..."
I have family I would not contact otherwise, High School friends
(1961),City and State information. Get very little junk. Love to pick
on Democrats !!!!!!


KenW
Mayayana
2022-03-31 20:16:42 UTC
Permalink
"pyotr filipivich" <***@mindspring.com> wrote

| Some times I find old friends, and well, all we have in common is
| something we were involved in 40 years ago, or that we once went to
| the same high school, or some similar part of what is a past life.
|
| "Glory Days!..."

I haven't actually contacted old friends. I just look them up.
But actually, I don't usually find them. When I discovered
nitter.net with no hjavascript required I thought, "My,
how civilized!" I started looking people up. But the few I found
had no postings. They apparently just opened an account
and forgot about it.
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 22:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Some times I find old friends, and well, all we have in common is
| something we were involved in 40 years ago, or that we once went to
| the same high school, or some similar part of what is a past life.
|
| "Glory Days!..."
I haven't actually contacted old friends. I just look them up.
But actually, I don't usually find them. When I discovered
nitter.net with no hjavascript required I thought, "My,
how civilized!" I started looking people up. But the few I found
had no postings. They apparently just opened an account
and forgot about it.
To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
for him work.

I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
--
Ken
KenW
2022-03-31 22:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
Search for >find email address for a person< I got some hits.
Probably as hard as phone number


KenW
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 23:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by KenW
Post by Ken Blake
I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
Search for >find email address for a person< I got some hits.
Probably as hard as phone number
Yes,I should have said that I had tried that and similar searches. I
also get several hits, but none are him.


Ken
Mayayana
2022-03-31 23:24:04 UTC
Permalink
"Ken Blake" <***@invalidemail.com> wrote

| To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
| cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
| last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
| for him work.
|
| I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
| finding an e-mail address for him?
|

That's a tough one. I found the phone number today for
a cousin. It was easy because his landline is listed.
whitepages.com. But I don't think I've ever seen an email
address listed, except for sites that want you to pay a
fee. Someone would probably have to be naive enough to post
their name and email on a webpage somewhere.

But if phone is good enough, you might be able to find that.
Most of these sites will show up in search. You seach for
John Q. Public and they list all matches in the US, with
age and location, as well as guesses at who they're related
to.
Ken Blake
2022-03-31 23:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
| cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
| last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
| for him work.
|
| I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
| finding an e-mail address for him?
|
That's a tough one. I found the phone number today for
a cousin. It was easy because his landline is listed.
whitepages.com. But I don't think I've ever seen an email
address listed, except for sites that want you to pay a
fee. Someone would probably have to be naive enough to post
their name and email on a webpage somewhere.
But if phone is good enough, you might be able to find that.
Most of these sites will show up in search. You seach for
John Q. Public and they list all matches in the US, with
age and location, as well as guesses at who they're related
to.
Ye, I'd settle for a phone number. But when I try, I get hits that are
either for someone with a similar but wrong name, or old info.
--
Ken
Ken Hart
2022-04-01 19:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Ye, I'd settle for a phone number. But when I try, I get hits that are
either for someone with a similar but wrong name, or old info.
Can't you troll somewhere else?
VanguardLH
2022-04-01 01:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
for him work.
I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
Maybe a genealogy site might help. Some have free trials, but could be
too crippled to be of value. Likely you'll have to pay a monthly
subscription to get a far larger database to search, but you'll have to
pay for a month if the free trial is fruitless. While such sites try to
track your ancestry, I've never used one to see if they include contact
information, like postal addresses, phone numbers, and so on. However,
they might give info regarding family members either side of the cousin
to do searches on their contact info.

Before wasting time doing all that, is the family around the cousin
still alive? You didn't mention if 1st, 2nd, 3rd cousin, or other types
of cousins. If a 1st cousin, you could try calling your father, your
monther, your uncle, your aunt, your grandparents, or the cousin's
children to see if they have contact info on the cousin. You don't
know, but maybe someone in your family does.
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 16:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ken Blake
To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
for him work.
I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
Maybe a genealogy site might help. Some have free trials, but could be
too crippled to be of value. Likely you'll have to pay a monthly
subscription to get a far larger database to search, but you'll have to
pay for a month if the free trial is fruitless. While such sites try to
track your ancestry, I've never used one to see if they include contact
information, like postal addresses, phone numbers, and so on. However,
they might give info regarding family members either side of the cousin
to do searches on their contact info.
Thanks, but...

Ten years or so ago I tried unsuccessfully to use genealogy software to
find the names of my paternal grandparents, who I never knew (my parents
were divorced when I was two). With the help of a friend who knows much
more about genealogy than I do, I manged to find out. So I now know a
little (still not much) about such software, and I have no expectation
that such software will help.
Post by VanguardLH
Before wasting time doing all that, is the family around the cousin
still alive? You didn't mention if 1st, 2nd, 3rd cousin, or other types
of cousins.
Yes, I did. Second cousin. See the quote above.
Post by VanguardLH
If a 1st cousin, you could try calling your father, your
monther, your uncle, your aunt, your grandparents,
All those are dead, unfortunately.
Post by VanguardLH
or the cousin's
children
He had none.
Post by VanguardLH
to see if they have contact info on the cousin. You don't
know, but maybe someone in your family does.
The only people in my family who are still alive and I have any
knowledge of are my one son, my one grandson, my one first cousin, and
this second cousin who I would like to contact (*if* he is still alive.
If he is still alive, he's around 72). I probably have a few other
living relatives. but I don't even know any of their names, or how we'd
be related.

By the way, it's by no means critical that I contact him. We were never
close, but I always liked him, and since I have so few living relatives...
--
Ken
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-04-01 16:42:32 UTC
Permalink
[Apologies to others, but I can see Ken's email includes invalid. Ken,
feel free - mine works.]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 at 09:06:51, Ken Blake <***@invalidemail.com> wrote
(my responses usually FOLLOW):
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Thanks, but...
Ten years or so ago I tried unsuccessfully to use genealogy software to
find the names of my paternal grandparents, who I never knew (my
parents were divorced when I was two). With the help of a friend who
knows much more about genealogy than I do, I manged to find out. So I
now know a little (still not much) about such software, and I have no
expectation that such software will help.
The software itself won't help much: it's mostly designed to enter, and
rearrange into useful and accessible form, data you've acquired from
various sources. Although some of the genealogy companies make the
distinction between the software and their record-accessing services
rather hard to see (by using software which has direct links into their
services), much in the same way many mobile (cellular) 'phone providers
blur the hardware with their service (or they do here in UK, anyway).
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I did. Second cousin. See the quote above.
So you share some great-grandparents.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
All those are dead, unfortunately.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
The only people in my family who are still alive and I have any
knowledge of are my one son, my one grandson, my one first cousin, and
this second cousin who I would like to contact (*if* he is still alive.
If he is still alive, he's around 72). I probably have a few other
living relatives. but I don't even know any of their names, or how we'd
be related.
If you _want_ to do such research, there are plenty who will help -
including me, though my experience with US records is very limited (but
if you manage to trace back to Britain [even just an _arrival_ ship/s
manifest] not _too_ long ago, I can try there).

(Sometimes the birth of a new grandchild/great-grandchild, and/or the
marriage of same, triggers renewed interest; if nothing else, a bit of
tree chart provides an unusual christening/wedding present!)
Post by Ken Blake
By the way, it's by no means critical that I contact him. We were never
close, but I always liked him, and since I have so few living
relatives...
IKWYM (-:. I have no first cousins and no descendants. (But since
starting the hobby, quite a few cousins, literally all over the world,
many of whom I'm in - sometimes very intermittent! - contact with.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

in the kingdom of the bland, the one idea is king. - Rory Bremner (on
politics), RT 2015/1/31-2/6
VanguardLH
2022-04-03 04:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by VanguardLH
I've been trying to contact a second cousin that I haven't heard
from in years. He no longer lives where I last knew where he lived,
and none of the old e-mail addresses I have for him work.
Maybe a genealogy site might help. Some have free trials, but could
be too crippled to be of value. Likely you'll have to pay a monthly
subscription to get a far larger database to search, but you'll have
to pay for a month if the free trial is fruitless.
Ten years or so ago I tried unsuccessfully to use genealogy software
to find the names of my paternal grandparents, who I never knew (my
parents were divorced when I was two). With the help of a friend who
knows much more about genealogy than I do, I manged to find out. So I
now know a little (still not much) about such software, and I have no
expectation that such software will help.
Some have free trials, like for a month. Should be plenty of time to be
clumsy figuring out how to use them. Just be sure the trial is
unfettered by allowing you to use their service or create a free account
WITHOUT doling out a credit card number. The ones I found were
web-based services, not client software installed onto a local host.
They might have client apps, but I wouldn't bother with those, and just
use their site.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-04-01 16:22:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 15:21:04, Ken Blake <***@invalidemail.com> wrote
(my responses usually FOLLOW):
[]
Post by Ken Blake
To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
for him work.
I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
VanguardLH's suggestion of asking other members of the family sounds a
good one.

I have no direct suggestions on how to find him, but as to whether he's
still alive: in the UK, FreeBMD have records of deaths up to a fairly
recent date, and the general record office -
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Result
s (you may have to register the first time, I can't remember - but it's
free) up to a more recent date (currently seems to be 2020) but is more
tedious to use than freeBMD (you can only search 5 years at a time for
example). They give age at death and the rough area (I think it's the
name of the registration district, but those cover a wide area; FreeBMD
will give you details of what towns and villages an area covers). Not
finding his death in there wont prove he's alive, but finding it will
probably prove he isn't.

I don't know what if any equivalent to the above the USA has. I think
most states may have something similar, but having to chase round
several states (and I bet they all use different UIs) doesn't sound like
much fun; I don't know if there's an overall one. As Mayayana says,
genealogy sites may help - they're not all fee-paying, "The church of
Jesus Christ and the Latter-Day Saints" (known to most genealogists as
LDS; used to be known as "The Mormons") are free ("familysearch"). But
most such are more oriented towards ancestors from way back, so their
coverage of recent deaths may be spotty.

You could also try FindAGrave (and others similar - ask me for
suggestions); that's by far the biggest one, especially in the USA.
Reliant on volunteers entering it, but they do have a lot of data (many
with photographs).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

in the kingdom of the bland, the one idea is king. - Rory Bremner (on
politics), RT 2015/1/31-2/6
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 16:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
To change the subject somewhat, I've been trying to contact a second
cousin that I haven't heard from in years. He no longer lives where I
last knew where he lived, and none of the old e-mail addresses I have
for him work.
I'm not even sure he's still alive, but if he is, any suggestions on
finding an e-mail address for him?
VanguardLH's suggestion of asking other members of the family sounds a
good one.
Certainly. I would have already done that were there such other members
to ask.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I have no direct suggestions on how to find him, but as to whether he's
still alive: in the UK, FreeBMD have records of deaths up to a fairly
recent date, and the general record office -
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Result
s (you may have to register the first time, I can't remember - but it's
free) up to a more recent date (currently seems to be 2020) but is more
tedious to use than freeBMD (you can only search 5 years at a time for
example). They give age at death and the rough area (I think it's the
name of the registration district, but those cover a wide area; FreeBMD
will give you details of what towns and villages an area covers). Not
finding his death in there wont prove he's alive, but finding it will
probably prove he isn't.
I don't know what if any equivalent to the above the USA has. I think
most states may have something similar, but having to chase round
several states (and I bet they all use different UIs) doesn't sound like
much fun; I don't know if there's an overall one. As Mayayana says,
genealogy sites may help - they're not all fee-paying, "The church of
Jesus Christ and the Latter-Day Saints" (known to most genealogists as
LDS; used to be known as "The Mormons") are free ("familysearch"). But
most such are more oriented towards ancestors from way back, so their
coverage of recent deaths may be spotty.
I mentioned in my reply to VangaurdLH that a friend helped me find info
on my paternal grandparents. If I remember correctly that's where she
found the info.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
You could also try FindAGrave (and others similar - ask me for
suggestions); that's by far the biggest one, especially in the USA.
Reliant on volunteers entering it, but they do have a lot of data (many
with photographs).
Findagrave didn't list his name, but it took me to ancestry.com which
found his marriage. No guarantees, but that reinforces the view that
he's probably still alive.

A while back I tried some sites that purport to find almost anyone for a
fee, but I was reluctant to pay for unguaranteed results.
--
Ken
g***@aol.com
2022-03-31 16:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B. Smith
On Wed, 30 Mar 2022 20:11:08 +0100, Philip Herlihy
Post by Philip Herlihy
Post by R.Wieser
Hello all,
I'm using DDG and Google to search for some particular information, and ever
so often get results back that poin to a facebook group. I neither have a
login, nor does my browser run random scripts.
My question : does anyone know of a way to read (and *just* that)
facebook-group posts ? A proxy perhaps ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
P.s.
If someone knows about similar simple, read-only access to other social
media I would like to hear about those too.
Facebook groups (I've been an admin of a large group) are configured to be
public, private or secret (I rather think terms have changed, but the principal
is the same).
Public groups don't restrict visibility of posts at all, or their members'
identities, though individuals can also influence this. Private groups only
allow visibility of content to members. Secret groups can't be found in a
search - you have to have the exact name or link.
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile, though admins
considering you for membership of their group often turn up their nose at near-
blank profiles. Be thoughtful what you disclose, but you can make most of your
details private. If you accept Facebook "friends" you can classify them as
Family, Close Friends, Friends or Acquaintances (without them seeing this).
Then choose which level of Friends are to be able to see any default posts you
make (adjustable on a per-post basis).
Facebook is huge fun if you get it right. You can keep up with people you'd
otherwise lose touch with, and groups can be a rich source of interest,
including locality-based groups. I learned a lot (and even grew a little as a
person) from creating and administering a very busy and lively locality group,
learning to deal with fools, trolls and worse, while cultivating a real
community. But I got sucked in to the point where it was taking up WAY too
much time, and I'm currently taking a lengthy break. I look forward to getting
back to it when current big projects are done and dusted.
I joined Facebook because friends told me I 'had' to. It's hardly been
of any use to me at all. It does have some disadvantages: when any of
your Facebook friends bakes a cake or goes to the toilet you get an
email (never been able to turn them off).
Somewhere in the profile/settings section there is a box you uncheck
to turn off <email> "notifications". You can also get rid of a lot of
the click bait by turning off "nametest" in the newsfeed options. It
really doesn't affect me much since all of my dog's E Mail is spam
anyway. and I wipe the inbox occasionally without looking at any of
it. I have never given them a cell number or much of anything else
they want to see.
Usually I just look at the private group I am subscribed to and the
private notes from a few family members who are FB junkies. Just be
careful what you post and what info you put in your profile. Firefox
runs FB in a "container" that is supposed to keep them from sniffing
your cookies but I wipe them on logoff anyway on that browser so there
is not much to see. Never do anything else with FB open. There does
still seem to be some bleed over if you do. If you have FB open and
log onto Amazon, your FB feed seems to start sending you ads about
what you looked at on Amazon.
Coincidence?
Maybe. Just don't do it. I suppose they still have your IP address.
The less "friends" you have, the less they can build a network around
you. I only have a few. None of them have ever used my name. I
appreciate that.
s|b
2022-03-31 18:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Herlihy
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile
Like selling your soul to the devil.
--
s|b
Paul
2022-03-31 19:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by s|b
Post by Philip Herlihy
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile
Like selling your soul to the devil.
"Facebook is asking people to submit their I.D.s to prove their accounts are real

by Marie Edinger January 4th 2019

...

There are two groups for the types of id they ask for.

In Group 1, acceptable forms of id include your birth certificate,
driver's license, passport, green card, and several others.

If you don't have any of those, some of the things Group 2 suggests
you send include your social security card, a bank statement, or medical records.

If you do upload any of those forms of ID, Facebook says
it's encrypted and stored securely."

Well, alrighty then. I'll get right on that.

Paul
Rene Lamontagne
2022-04-01 01:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by s|b
Post by Philip Herlihy
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile
Like selling your soul to the devil.
"Facebook is asking people to submit their I.D.s to prove their accounts are real
by Marie Edinger  January 4th 2019
...
There are two groups for the types of id they ask for.
In Group 1, acceptable forms of id include your birth certificate,
driver's license, passport, green card, and several others.
If you don't have any of those, some of the things Group 2 suggests
you send include your social security card, a bank statement, or medical records.
If you do upload any of those forms of ID, Facebook says
it's encrypted and stored securely."
Well, alrighty then. I'll get right on that.
   Paul
1: I wouldn't upload a blank piece of paper to Facebook.
2: I have never used Facebook.
3: I will never use Facebook or its ilk...

Rene
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2022-04-01 15:58:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 20:18:13, Rene Lamontagne <***@shaw.ca> wrote
(my responses usually FOLLOW):
[]
Post by Rene Lamontagne
1: I wouldn't upload a blank piece of paper to Facebook.
2: I have never used Facebook.
3: I will never use Facebook or its ilk...
Rene
"Know thine enemy". At least one of the allied generals - I think it
might have been Monty - had a picture of Rommel in his tent - not
because he liked him.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

in the kingdom of the bland, the one idea is king. - Rory Bremner (on
politics), RT 2015/1/31-2/6
Ken Blake
2022-04-01 16:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Rene Lamontagne
1: I wouldn't upload a blank piece of paper to Facebook.
2: I have never used Facebook.
3: I will never use Facebook or its ilk...
Rene
"Know thine enemy". At least one of the allied generals - I think it
might have been Monty - had a picture of Rommel in his tent - not
because he liked him.
I'm reminded that back when I used to teach chess in after-school
classes in a couple of local schools (one elementary and one
middle-school), one of the classrooms I taught in had pictures of
Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, and Stalin on the wall--presumably for the
same reason, even though WWII was long over.
--
Ken
g***@aol.com
2022-04-01 06:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by s|b
Post by Philip Herlihy
There's little cost in creating a simple Facebook profile
Like selling your soul to the devil.
"Facebook is asking people to submit their I.D.s to prove their accounts are real
by Marie Edinger January 4th 2019
...
There are two groups for the types of id they ask for.
In Group 1, acceptable forms of id include your birth certificate,
driver's license, passport, green card, and several others.
If you don't have any of those, some of the things Group 2 suggests
you send include your social security card, a bank statement, or medical records.
If you do upload any of those forms of ID, Facebook says
it's encrypted and stored securely."
Well, alrighty then. I'll get right on that.
Paul
If they ever do that to my dog, we will send his AKC papers, county
license and vaccination record.
They love him tho. He clicks on lots of stuff and even buys something
now and then. Even a stupid AI program would trip on his profile but
he is still in good standing. They did have him in the cone of shame
for a week because he barked out something insensitive about woke
people.
g***@aol.com
2022-03-30 22:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Hello all,
I'm using DDG and Google to search for some particular information, and ever
so often get results back that poin to a facebook group. I neither have a
login, nor does my browser run random scripts.
My question : does anyone know of a way to read (and *just* that)
facebook-group posts ? A proxy perhaps ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
P.s.
If someone knows about similar simple, read-only access to other social
media I would like to hear about those too.
My dog has a Facebook page. He doesn't talk about me. I got a little
flak from the admin of the private group I follow but they haven't
kicked me out yet.
I watch my ad stream and I haven't seen any bleed over. It is really
all about ad targeting.
R.Wieser
2022-03-31 10:42:34 UTC
Permalink
gfretwell,
It is really all about ad targeting.
:-) Thats just the part you see.

I myself consider Facebook (and its ilk) as icebergs : most of it is
invisble to the common person. But don't get too close, you know what
happened to the Titanic.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
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