Discussion:
DDG returning unasked for stuff
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R.Wieser
2024-10-10 07:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Hello all,

I'm normally using DuckDuckGo as my search-engine, and for a time now have
noticed it returning, only on the first page and always at the bottom,
results that have to do with my (supposed) location, even though I'm
searching for technical information.

Just now I seached for "win32 bagMRU records" (yes, Windows registry related
:-) ), and got entries back like "postal codes in {city}", "Genealogy in
{area} - Trace your {country} roots" and "List of cities, towns and villages
in {area}", none of which seem to be even remotely related to any
combination of the keywords I supplied.

Does anyone have an idea what is going on here ? Mind you, the fact that
these results are, as mentioned, only returned on the first page and at the
bottom gives me the idea that its on purpose.

But what is that purpose ? Just to try to be creepy by letting me know
where they think I live ?

And by the way: I can't remember having *ever* searched for anything related
to those results.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
VanguardLH
2024-10-10 09:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I'm normally using DuckDuckGo as my search-engine, and for a time now
have noticed it returning, only on the first page and always at the
bottom, results that have to do with my (supposed) location, even
though I'm searching for technical information.
Just now I seached for "win32 bagMRU records" (yes, Windows registry
related >: -) ), and got entries back like "postal codes in {city}",
"Genealogy in {area} - Trace your {country} roots" and "List of
cities, towns and villages in {area}", none of which seem to be even
remotely related to any combination of the keywords I supplied.
Does anyone have an idea what is going on here ? Mind you, the fact
that these results are, as mentioned, only returned on the first page
and at the bottom gives me the idea that its on purpose.
But what is that purpose ? Just to try to be creepy by letting me
know where they think I live ?
And by the way: I can't remember having *ever* searched for anything
related to those results.
In Firefox, which I configure to purge ALL locally cached data on its
exit, and also disable its geolocation reporting (geo.enabled = false),
I do not get the locale oriented search hits you mention at the bottom
of the first page, or anywhere in the first page. Since I purge all
locally cached data on exit, any cookies, site preferences, DOM Storage,
and other data is gone after an exit.

Perhaps you don't do a clean exit, so Firefox remembers some of that,
like cookies for search settings you configured for use at ddg.com. One
of the DDG search settings is Region. For me, it is "All regions".
While I could set Advertisements to off, that won't stick since I don't
keep any cookies or other local data on exit.

DDG added its own AI Features. Other search engines added AI, too. I
dislike the search engine attempting to present a panel in the search
results page thinking its content is what I'm looking for. For example,
when I use Google's search engine on "duckduckgo showing local search
results geolocation disabled", it pukes out the following AI-built
content before showing the regular search results:

If DuckDuckGo is showing local search results even though geolocation
is disabled, you can try these steps:

* Check your device's location services: Make sure location services
are enabled on your device. You can check this by:

- Clicking the permissions icon in the address bar for Chrome,
Firefox, or Brave

- Opening the Safari menu and selecting Settings for DuckDuckGo

* Restart your browser: Try restarting your web browser.

* Improve the accuracy of your location: You can opt-in to improve the
accuracy of your local search results by enabling location. This
allows your browser to use techniques like WiFi databases, cell
tower location databases, and GPS.

* Clear your browser cookies: You can manually clear your browser
cookies for duckduckgo.com.

DuckDuckGo uses a GEO::IP lookup to guess your location by default.
However, this process isn't always accurate.

You can also change your DuckDuckGo settings via URL parameters by
adding them after the search query. For example, you can use
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=search&kp=-1&kl=us-en.

I'd try modifying the URL to append. I'm guessing "&kp=-1&kl=us-en" is
what gets added to change geolocation prediction. The "Geo::IP" is just
the old method of using the client's IP address to determine in whose IP
pool it belongs, and getting its location just on the IP pool.

https://metacpan.org/pod/Geo::IP

However, by "DDG" it is unclear if you are using an unnamed web browser
to visit there along with any add-ons you installed into it, or are
using the DDG web browser as noted at:

https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/get-duckduckgo/does-duckduckgo-make-a-browser/

Well, sites have been using IP location for a very long time. While DDG
might be collecting that data, that doesn't explain why DDG would start
pushing search hits based on geolocation. Didn't happen for me.

A recent update to Firefox (you didn't mention your web browser)
modified the geolocation feature. If geo.enabled = true, now Firefox
will provide geolocation to a site, but it is temporary. Once the tab
is closed, the geo data is purged for that tab. See:

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/131.0/releasenotes/

I set geo.enabled = true, but didn't care for my geolocation known while
the tab remained open, so I went back to geo.enabled = false.

I still prefer that *I* tell a site where I am when I decide to reveal
that info. Well, other than a site getting IP geolocation using my IP
address when I connect to their site. I would need to use a proxy, VPN,
or Tor to mask my IP address, but I'm not that paranoid yet.
Newyana2
2024-10-10 11:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Hello all,
I'm normally using DuckDuckGo as my search-engine, and for a time now have
noticed it returning, only on the first page and always at the bottom,
results that have to do with my (supposed) location, even though I'm
searching for technical information.
Just now I seached for "win32 bagMRU records" (yes, Windows registry related
:-) ), and got entries back like "postal codes in {city}", "Genealogy in
{area} - Trace your {country} roots" and "List of cities, towns and villages
in {area}", none of which seem to be even remotely related to any
combination of the keywords I supplied.
Does anyone have an idea what is going on here ? Mind you, the fact that
these results are, as mentioned, only returned on the first page and at the
bottom gives me the idea that its on purpose.
But what is that purpose ? Just to try to be creepy by letting me know
where they think I live ?
And by the way: I can't remember having *ever* searched for anything related
to those results.
I've seen some results like that lately, off and on. It's
startling to see the links suddenly switch to how I can
find things related to my search in my town. I assume they're
just making a few bucks that way, which is fine with me. It's
not intrusive.

I delete all cookies/cache etc on close and block
tracking domains in HOSTS, so I know they're not tracking me.
But they can get location from IP. Google does that regularly.
I do it myself, with free MaxMind databas files that allow me to
translate an IP to a location. I use that to process my website
server logs. I load the data into an MSI file, then call it with
a VBScript. Combined with a call to get hostname, it allows me
to replace the IP address in my logs with
hostname/city/state/country. In some cases ISPs even add
the location to the hostname.

You could bypass that with VPN if you care.
R.Wieser
2024-10-10 13:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Newyana2,
It's startling to see the links suddenly switch to how I can
find things related to my search in my town.
Yep.
I assume they're just making a few bucks that way,
In that case they are, as far as I'm concerned, advertisements, and should
be marked as such. They aren't.
I delete all cookies/cache etc on close
Same here.
and block tracking domains in HOSTS, so I know they're not
tracking me.
I'm doing something similar: blocking third-party domains.
But they can get location from IP.
I know. But why are they showing me that they can do that ? What is the
purpose of it ? Mind you, the results have zero to do with my question,
and are otherwise also of zero value to me.
You could bypass that with VPN if you care.
I know. But its not about how to evade the crap (there are a few options),
but why I get them.


.... Hmmm... I just realized that it /could/ have something to European
rules that IIRC demand that the returned results contain some localized ones
too, and this is how they make good on that rule. Useless crap at the wrong
moment, but tecnically obeying the rule.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Paul
2024-10-10 15:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I know. But why are they showing me that they can do that ? What is the
purpose of it ? Mind you, the results have zero to do with my question,
and are otherwise also of zero value to me.
Does cleaning cookies help at all ?

You know, when any other site tries to track you.

Paul
R.Wieser
2024-10-10 16:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Paul,
Post by Paul
Does cleaning cookies help at all ?
What cookies ? :-)

My browser (FF) is configured to reject all third-party cookies, and to
discard the remainder when I close it.
Post by Paul
You know, when any other site tries to track you.
Also, I block third-party resources (FF add-on). That means that spy/beacon
pixels/other do not get requested/loaded either. JS has been disabled too.

Are there any other "leaks" I should be aware of ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Paul
2024-10-10 17:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Paul,
Post by Paul
Does cleaning cookies help at all ?
What cookies ? :-)
My browser (FF) is configured to reject all third-party cookies, and to
discard the remainder when I close it.
Post by Paul
You know, when any other site tries to track you.
Also, I block third-party resources (FF add-on). That means that spy/beacon
pixels/other do not get requested/loaded either. JS has been disabled too.
Are there any other "leaks" I should be aware of ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
I usually search for "+++" using Agent Ransack
and remove toe DOM storage. The domain name is
part of the string.

Paul
R.Wieser
2024-10-10 18:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Paul,
Post by Paul
Post by R.Wieser
Are there any other "leaks" I should be aware of ?
I usually search for "+++" using Agent Ransack
and remove toe DOM storage. The domain name is
part of the string.
Ah yes, I forgot all about that one. AFAIK that is a JScript something
(which I have disabled), but if you know and can tell me how its accesed
otherwise than I would be much obliged (FF v52).

I just checked about:config and noticed I still had "dom.storage.enabled"
set to True. Though the "storage.sqlite" database* is .. as empty as it
will ever be (512 bytes):

* AFAIK that is where it goes, but if you have information otherwise I would
like to hear that too.


Any thoughts about the DDG localized results ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Paul
2024-10-10 21:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Paul,
Post by Paul
Post by R.Wieser
Are there any other "leaks" I should be aware of ?
I usually search for "+++" using Agent Ransack
and remove toe DOM storage. The domain name is
part of the string.
Ah yes, I forgot all about that one. AFAIK that is a JScript something
(which I have disabled), but if you know and can tell me how its accesed
otherwise than I would be much obliged (FF v52).
I just checked about:config and noticed I still had "dom.storage.enabled"
set to True. Though the "storage.sqlite" database* is .. as empty as it
* AFAIK that is where it goes, but if you have information otherwise I would
like to hear that too.
Any thoughts about the DDG localized results ?
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
I didn't see any localized results here. But then, I do not DDG
with any regularity.

The thing is, if they want to shake your cage, all these companies
know exactly where you are. Maybe usage of a VPN will erode that.

If you search for Joes Pizza, the search result includes an item
from your own town, not from a location half way around the world.
Maybe if your browser is using DOH, it's worse (closer to a MITM attack).
There's no DOH (DNS over HTTPS) in FF52. When FF52 looks up a site, it's
the old fashioned (regular) DNS that is used.

Paul
R.Wieser
2024-10-11 07:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Paul,
Post by Paul
I didn't see any localized results here. But then, I do not DDG
with any regularity.
I do not see it all the time, but often enough that it caught my attention.
Post by Paul
The thing is, if they want to shake your cage, all these companies
know exactly where you are.
I disagree. If that would be so I would not get "localized" results from
the other side of my country.
Post by Paul
Maybe usage of a VPN will erode that.
As long as you don't do any, as your below, localized searches. :-)
Post by Paul
If you search for Joes Pizza, the search result includes an item
from your own town, not from a location half way around the world.
:-) Are you /sure/ about that ? Nowerdays I get enough nonsensical/crap
results that I would not want to make a bet on it. :-(

But yes, doing localized searches is pretty-much giving your (general)
location away. Though not any more than a location-from-IP lookup would do.
Post by Paul
There's no DOH (DNS over HTTPS) in FF52. When FF52 looks up a site,
it's the old fashioned (regular) DNS that is used.
That would be a problem related to tracking by the DNS provider (and perhaps
by any-or-all servers the connection hops thru) and not DDG (or bing)
itself.

Also, as far as I can tell DoH is only usefull (to the user) when the
requested domain is hosted on a multi-homed server*. If its on a
single-homed server than its IP is as good as its domain name.

* or going thru (D)DOS mitigation service. Which than becomes just another
choke point which could do tracking. :-|


But I see you, as I, have no information on why DDG would dump localized
results in a search which has absolute zero to do with ones location.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
...winston
2024-10-11 08:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
If you search for Joes Pizza, the search result includes an item
from your own town, not from a location half way around the world.
Maybe if your browser is using DOH, it's worse (closer to a MITM attack).
There's no DOH (DNS over HTTPS) in FF52. When FF52 looks up a site, it's
the old fashioned (regular) DNS that is used.
Paul
Didn't support for FF52 end for both standard and esr releases?
Even SeaMonkey has the relevant FF60.x security fixes
--
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
Newyana2
2024-10-11 11:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ...winston
Post by Paul
If you search for Joes Pizza, the search result includes an item
from your own town, not from a location half way around the world.
Maybe if your browser is using DOH, it's worse (closer to a MITM attack).
There's no DOH (DNS over HTTPS) in FF52. When FF52 looks up a site, it's
the old fashioned (regular) DNS that is used.
    Paul
Didn't support for FF52 end for both standard and esr releases?
Even SeaMonkey has the relevant FF60.x security fixes
FF52 is the last supported on XP, which Rudy often uses.
I used it myself until a few months ago. Moving to Win10,
I was surprised to find that current FF really wasn't much better
at rendering sites.

Security? I long ago prioritized not having
the GUI re-broken over whatever dubious value a FF security
fix might offer. It's reached a point where FF releases are
coming out at insane speed and things get broken regularly.


I don't remember security fixes at 60. As I recall that's when
they broke a lot of settings, like blocking auto-updates, and
moved those into policies.json. Not an improvement at all. Rather
it was an attempt to make FF appealing to corporate admins.
I figure that security in a browser is 99% about limiting
script. There will always be 0-days, but nearly all are script-
related, and most are connected with remote networking
functionality. Cut out the script and remoting, and the
security problem is solved.

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