Does VLC have a "previous frame" function?

[J. P. Gilliver]

I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

[David E. Ross]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

Did you ask at VLC's forum, at <https://forum.videolan.org/>?

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by David E. Ross

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

Did you ask at VLC's forum, at <https://forum.videolan.org/>?

I try not to have an ever-increasing number of places I have to remember
to look. However, I had a look there (thanks for the link), and found a
long (and quite heated!) thread asking the same thing, with the answer
being no.

Like many of those in the thread, I'd be happy with just a one- or
two-frame "back" button, as I'd mainly use it when stepping through
looking for a particular frame.

[John]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 16:12:20 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

Have you tried "w" and "r"? They sometimes come in consecutive pairs
on the keyboard.

Okay, don't do those. "W" opens the video in full-screen mode outside
the window and then toggles it back into the window and "r" seems to
kill the video.

"CTRL-R" is a save or convert switch but the "Ctrl" key changes the
functions of lots of keys.

There is a "Tools", "Hotkeys" list. Accoding to that list there isn't
a "one frame back" hotkey.

Sorry.

You could try " -e" but on my VLC that just slows down the video then
does the "next frame". The minus and the "e" keys don't interact, they
operate independently.
J.

[John]

Post by John
On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 16:12:20 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

Have you tried "w" and "r"? They sometimes come in consecutive pairs
on the keyboard.
Okay, don't do those. "W" opens the video in full-screen mode outside
the window and then toggles it back into the window and "r" seems to
kill the video.
"CTRL-R" is a save or convert switch but the "Ctrl" key changes the
functions of lots of keys.
There is a "Tools", "Hotkeys" list. Accoding to that list there isn't
a "one frame back" hotkey.
Sorry.
You could try " -e" but on my VLC that just slows down the video then
does the "next frame". The minus and the "e" keys don't interact, they
operate independently.
J.

On the "Tools" pop-up panel, at the bottom left is a
"simple/advanced" selection pair of buttons.

Chose the "advanced then select "Hotkeys" from the menu on the right.
You can chose the number of frames a "very short jump" does.
Select"1" (one not the letter "ell"). The hotkeys for "a very short
jump backwards " are "shift + left" pressed simultaneously.

Save your changes with the "Save" button at the bottom right.

I think that should work.

Maybe.

J.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <***@4ax.com> at Thu, 13 Jun
2024 18:53:22, John <***@the.keyboard> writes
[]

Post by John
On the "Tools" pop-up panel, at the bottom left is a
"simple/advanced" selection pair of buttons.

I get Simple and All, but no matter.

Post by John
Chose the "advanced then select "Hotkeys" from the menu on the right.

I got "Hotkey settings" in the menu on the left, but again, no matter.

Post by John
You can chose the number of frames a "very short jump" does.
Select"1" (one not the letter "ell"). The hotkeys for "a very short
jump backwards " are "shift + left" pressed simultaneously.

(On mine it's just Left, but I may have changed that in the past.)

Unfortunately, I think you'll find the thing you can wind down to 1 is
in seconds, not frames - so, the minimum jump back you can set is one
second, not one frame.

Post by John
Save your changes with the "Save" button at the bottom right.
I think that should work.
Maybe.
J.

'fraid not - but thanks anyway!

[John]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 20:20:42 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by John
On the "Tools" pop-up panel, at the bottom left is a
"simple/advanced" selection pair of buttons.

I get Simple and All, but no matter.

Post by John
Chose the "advanced then select "Hotkeys" from the menu on the right.

I got "Hotkey settings" in the menu on the left, but again, no matter.

Post by John
You can chose the number of frames a "very short jump" does.
Select"1" (one not the letter "ell"). The hotkeys for "a very short
jump backwards " are "shift + left" pressed simultaneously.

(On mine it's just Left, but I may have changed that in the past.)
Unfortunately, I think you'll find the thing you can wind down to 1 is
in seconds, not frames - so, the minimum jump back you can set is one
second, not one frame.

Oh. Okay. Sorry. I'll just stop, now.

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John
Save your changes with the "Save" button at the bottom right.
I think that should work.
Maybe.
J.

'fraid not - but thanks anyway!

Sorry for the bad advice.

J.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John
On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 16:12:20 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

[]

Post by John
There is a "Tools", "Hotkeys" list. Accoding to that list there isn't
a "one frame back" hotkey.

(Yes, I found that.)

Post by John
Sorry.
You could try " -e" but on my VLC that just slows down the video then
does the "next frame". The minus and the "e" keys don't interact, they
operate independently.
J.

I found a long thread in the forum the other poster pointed us at; the
short answer (and what was the entirety of one of the posts in that
thread!) is No.

I can see _why_ it'd be difficult, for video formats that code the
occasional full frame and in between just code the differences going
forwards: going backwards would involve quite a convoluted process.

[NY]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I found a long thread in the forum the other poster pointed us at; the
short answer (and what was the entirety of one of the posts in that
thread!) is No.
I can see _why_ it'd be difficult, for video formats that code the
occasional full frame and in between just code the differences going
forwards: going backwards would involve quite a convoluted process.

Computationally difficult, but not beyond the wit of mankind to do it. I
use an app called VideoReDo (which isn't free - I think it cost me about
£50) and that can single-step or shuttle backwards and forwards to its
heart's content. So it is possible. It's interesting to see that the
shuttle playback (even forwards) is a lot more jerky with HD than SD
video, with it sometimes stalling for a couple of seconds if I press the
single-frame button too frequently. And that is down to the difference
between MPEG compression (SD broadcast video) and H264 (HD broadcast
video), not due to the higher resolution and therefore more
pixel-shifting. I proved that with a recording of a "sub-SD" (544x576)
channel that was on a T2 mux (Talking Pictures TV, when it used to be on
COM7) - that was as slow to respond as a 1920x1080 HD video, because it
was H264. Sadly VideoReDo is not being developed any more because of the
untimely death of the company owner (and the inability of the other
owner to reach an agreement to buy the source code from the owner's
widow). There are fears that one day the server that VideoReDo
phones-home to every so often may die if the server-hosting fees aren't
being paid...

I use VRD to edit out continuity and commercials from programmes that I
want to keep, and then VLC to watch those edited programmes because it
can play at variable speed to compensate for the modern trend in factual
programmes to labour the point for the benefit of the hard-of-thinking.



VLC hasn't had a new release for ages, which makes me think that
development has stalled. I raised a bug ages ago on the VLC forum
relating to the fact that the current version freezes the picture (but
the sound continues) if you single-frame advance for more than a couple
of frames, whereas the older versions didn't have that bug. I can
reproduce it on various operating systems: Windows 7, Windows 10, Linux
Debian (eg Ubuntu, Raspbian). The response on the forum was "never seen
that one before" with the implication "so you must be imagining it" :-(

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by NY

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I found a long thread in the forum the other poster pointed us at;
the short answer (and what was the entirety of one of the posts in
that thread!) is No.
I can see _why_ it'd be difficult, for video formats that code the
occasional full frame and in between just code the differences going
forwards: going backwards would involve quite a convoluted process.

Computationally difficult, but not beyond the wit of mankind to do it.
I use an app called VideoReDo (which isn't free - I think it cost me
about £50) and that can single-step or shuttle backwards and forwards
to its heart's content. So it is possible. It's interesting to see that

Oh, there are certainly plenty of players (even my venerable copy of
VirtualDub) that can (in most cases only some formats). The fact remains
that the VLC developers (if there are any still, see your comment below)
seem to have stated they're not going to add a frameback button/function
in the foreseeable future.
[]

Post by NY
I use VRD to edit out continuity and commercials from programmes that I
want to keep, and then VLC to watch those edited programmes because it
can play at variable speed to compensate for the modern trend in
factual programmes to labour the point for the benefit of the
hard-of-thinking.
VLC hasn't had a new release for ages, which makes me think that
development has stalled. I raised a bug ages ago on the VLC forum
relating to the fact that the current version freezes the picture (but
the sound continues) if you single-frame advance for more than a couple
of frames, whereas the older versions didn't have that bug. I can
reproduce it on various operating systems: Windows 7, Windows 10, Linux
Debian (eg Ubuntu, Raspbian). The response on the forum was "never seen
that one before" with the implication "so you must be imagining it" :-(

[VanguardLH]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by NY

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I found a long thread in the forum the other poster pointed us at;
the short answer (and what was the entirety of one of the posts in
that thread!) is No. I can see _why_ it'd be difficult, for video
formats that code the occasional full frame and in between just
code the differences going forwards: going backwards would involve
quite a convoluted process.

Computationally difficult, but not beyond the wit of mankind to do
it. I use an app called VideoReDo (which isn't free - I think it
cost me about £50) and that can single-step or shuttle backwards and
forwards to its heart's content. So it is possible. It's interesting
to see that

Oh, there are certainly plenty of players (even my venerable copy of
VirtualDub) that can (in most cases only some formats). The fact
remains that the VLC developers (if there are any still, see your
comment below) seem to have stated they're not going to add a
frameback button/function in the foreseeable future.

Post by NY
VLC hasn't had a new release for ages, which makes me think that
development has stalled. I raised a bug ages ago on the VLC forum
relating to the fact that the current version freezes the picture
(but the sound continues) if you single-frame advance for more than
a couple of frames, whereas the older versions didn't have that bug.
I can reproduce it on various operating systems: Windows 7, Windows
10, Linux Debian (eg Ubuntu, Raspbian). The response on the forum
was "never seen that one before" with the implication "so you must
be imagining it" :-(

https://www.videolan.org/vlc/releases/

For each version, there is a changelog linked in the version release
info. Alas, VideoLAN really needs to consider adding datestamps to the
version release info and into their changelogs.

Sometimes I can find a release history with dates at Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player

Doesn't have a release history listing, but mentions 3.0.21 came out 11
days ago. Doesn't seem development has stalled. VLC for ChromeOS (8
years ago) and Windows Phone (5 years ago - anyone still use that?) are
the ones that are old. About every couple of months I get a notice when
I run VLC that there is a new version, but how often I see the notice
depends on how often I play videos using VLC.

https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc/-/tree/master

You can get an idea of which modules are getting updated in VLC. Not
everything must get updated to reflect new features or bug fixes in
specific modules. Seems development has not stalled at all. You can
see some of their milestones at:

https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc/-/milestones

Just because they decide not to implement a user request, or cannot
replicate a user-reported problem (so they have nothing to work on since
they cannot duplicate the defect) does not mean development has stalled.
Saying you have a problem with VLC, and even describing the effect, does
not always provide enough information to replicate the problem to then
look at it. There are users that are good QA Testers, and then there
are users that just bitch without providing sufficient information to go
on. If you open your box and find a cockroach inside, but everyone else
opens their box but finds no cockroach, just what are they supposed to
do about a cockroach that doesn't exist for them? A bug report without
a good description of how to reliably or repeatedly replicate the defect
is a worthless bug report. Did NY just post in their forums about a
bug, or did he submit a bug report at
https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc/-/issues? Typically writing a
bug report requires or is expected the poster has some technical
expertise in debugging and documenting a defect. Once you delve into
the dev community, you could get over your head.

Note that even VLC's frame forward function does not always work.
Sometimes VLC will hang when inching forward frame by frame. Sometimes
you can unhang VLC by clicking on a play position further in the play
progress bar. Sometimes VLC is hung, and you have to exit/unload VLC,
and reload the video in VLC, and make sure not to frame forward in that
spot again.

Also, codecs change, and sometimes the changes have unwanted effects. I
remember when hitting the end of a video would loop back to the start
without any artifacts. Now, quite often, there is a black screen for a
couple seconds after hitting the end of a video before playback resumes
back at the start. Obviously this only occurs when you configure VLC to
automatically loop a video playback. I don't know if the artifact is
caused by a change in how VLC handles the playback, or a change in a
codec over which VLC has no control. The cure is to use the looping
controls to set the start after the video plays and the end just before
the video ends. However, even when looping a video, sometimes the video
gets corrupted, like a huge amount of pixelation that makes viewing the
video impossible although the audio, if present, still plays okay. I
attribute this to a defect in the codec, not in VLC.

Even if you install later versions of codecs, like using K-Lite Codec
Pack, those updates won't affect the codecs bundled with VLC. VLC has
its own private store of codecs that it uses from its libVLC library,
not the global ones that other players will use.

https://www.videolan.org/vlc/libvlc.html

They still get the codecs from its authors or from some repository, but
they don't write them. The codecs have the code to encode and decode
the videos. They are programs hence susceptible to bugs, or artifacts
in changed behavior that you might not like. I suspect VideoLAN
supplies their own codec library to control "good" versions of the
codecs instead of getting the latest and possibly buggy newest versions.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <***@v.nguard.lh> at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 17:27:22,
VanguardLH <***@nguard.LH> writes
[]

Post by VanguardLH
Just because they decide not to implement a user request, or cannot
replicate a user-reported problem (so they have nothing to work on since
they cannot duplicate the defect) does not mean development has stalled.
Saying you have a problem with VLC, and even describing the effect, does
not always provide enough information to replicate the problem to then
look at it. There are users that are good QA Testers, and then there
are users that just bitch without providing sufficient information to go
on. If you open your box and find a cockroach inside, but everyone else
opens their box but finds no cockroach, just what are they supposed to
do about a cockroach that doesn't exist for them? A bug report without
a good description of how to reliably or repeatedly replicate the defect
is a worthless bug report. Did NY just post in their forums about a
bug, or did he submit a bug report at
https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc/-/issues? Typically writing a
bug report requires or is expected the poster has some technical
expertise in debugging and documenting a defect. Once you delve into
the dev community, you could get over your head.

The thread I found in the forum seemed fairly definite that they weren't
going to implement step-back. Seemed a deliberate decision: I think they
thought they had better things to do.
[]

Post by VanguardLH
in changed behavior that you might not like. I suspect VideoLAN
supplies their own codec library to control "good" versions of the
codecs instead of getting the latest and possibly buggy newest versions.

Sounds plausible.

[NY]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The thread I found in the forum seemed fairly definite that they weren't
going to implement step-back. Seemed a deliberate decision: I think they
thought they had better things to do.

Developers' responses to feature requests on forums seem to be very
scathing in many cases. They prefer to add new functionality rather that
improving and bug-fixing what is already there.

I use a PVR program called TV Headend for recording TV on my Raspberry
Pi (it's also available for other flavours of Linux and maybe for
Windows and Mac). It's a great program but it does have a glaring
shortcoming which I've learned to work around.

If you set one recording and then you set another which will overlap
with it and will use a different mux to the first one (assuming you have
only one tuner), TVH cannot tell you of this at the time that you add
the second recording. It only errors as it tries to start the second
recording, which may be at a time when you aren't around to see an error
message. Other programs such as NextPVR and all dedicated PVRs can tell
you this, but TVH developers ridiculed my enhancement request and made
me feel as if I was asking for the moon on a stick, and said that it
will never ever be done because it is logically impossible. End of
discussion :-(

I think what they meant was that there are a few arcane circumstances
when a clash cannot be detected when you define the recordings, only
when they actually take place, and they are extrapolating and saying
"because it can't be done in a few obscure cases, we don't want to do it
for *all* straightforward cases of linear broadcasting where it is
possible".

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by NY

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The thread I found in the forum seemed fairly definite that they
weren't going to implement step-back. Seemed a deliberate decision: I
think they thought they had better things to do.

Developers' responses to feature requests on forums seem to be very
scathing in many cases. They prefer to add new functionality rather
that improving and bug-fixing what is already there.

The addition of a "go back one frame" button/function to VLC would be
new functionality, not a bugfix. (There is already a go forward one
frame button and key [e].)
[]

Post by NY
can tell you this, but TVH developers ridiculed my enhancement request
and made me feel as if I was asking for the moon on a stick, and said
that it will never ever be done because it is logically impossible. End
of discussion :-(

Having read the thread in their forum, I didn't bother joining the forum
just to ask for this, because plenty of others had, and it was fairly
clear that it wouldn't be added.

Post by NY
I think what they meant was that there are a few arcane circumstances
when a clash cannot be detected when you define the recordings, only
when they actually take place, and they are extrapolating and saying
"because it can't be done in a few obscure cases, we don't want to do
it for *all* straightforward cases of linear broadcasting where it is
possible".

The VLC back-frame case the response seemed to be that - especially for
some video formats - it would be _difficult_. It certainly isn't
impossible - as several of the requesters pointed out, it should be
possible to memorise the frames, even if back-frame was only provided
from the point where one started using forward-frame: in most cases,
where back-frame would be handy is where one has paused the video and is
trying to find a specific frame, and is inching forward, but goes past
the one you want (thinking "the next frame might be better - oh drat, it
isn't", when "back" would be Very Handy). Certainly, the argument that
for some video file formats a _general_ back-frame button would be hard
does crop up, but the buffer idea is dismissed.

[Paul]

The thread I found in the forum seemed fairly definite that they weren't  going to implement step-back. Seemed a deliberate decision: I think they  thought they had better things to do.

Developers' responses to feature requests on forums seem to be very scathing in many cases. They prefer to add new functionality rather that improving and bug-fixing what is already there.

The addition of a "go back one frame" button/function to VLC would be new functionality, not a bugfix. (There is already a go forward one frame button and key [e].)
[]

can tell you this, but TVH developers ridiculed my enhancement request and made me feel as if I was asking for the moon on a stick, and said that it will never ever be done because it is logically impossible. End of discussion :-(

Having read the thread in their forum, I didn't bother joining the forum just to ask for this, because plenty of others had, and it was fairly clear that it wouldn't be added.

I think what they meant was that there are a few arcane circumstances when a clash cannot be detected when you define the recordings, only when they actually take place, and they are extrapolating and saying "because it can't be done in a few obscure cases, we don't want to do it for *all* straightforward cases of linear broadcasting where it is possible".

The VLC back-frame case the response seemed to be that - especially for some video formats - it would be _difficult_. It certainly isn't impossible - as several of the requesters pointed out, it should be possible to memorise the frames, even if back-frame was only provided from the point where one started using forward-frame: in most cases, where back-frame would be handy is where one has paused the video and is trying to find a specific frame, and is inching forward, but goes past the one you want (thinking "the next frame might be better - oh drat, it isn't", when "back" would be Very Handy). Certainly, the argument that for some video file formats a _general_ back-frame button would be hard does crop up, but the buffer idea is dismissed.

Part of the problem with this feature request, is
working on it until it is perfect. The developers
have a fair idea, how many "bug reports" a feature
request will generate. Video, internally, does
have lots of sharp edges to cut yourself on.

Some video standards, the solution is obvious. But
there are other video standards, where the poor quality
of the specification, has had downstream effects from
day one. If someone had written a "reference design",
that would have clarified how the format was supposed
to work, that would have left the "spec" in the dust.

XWindows (X11) in Unix/Linus was like that -- the
reference implementation was the spec, and most of the
time, you just used the reference implementation so you
would "get it right". There was hardly a reason to write
one from scratch. The existence of a reference implementation
"stifled creativity".

If you want to see how hard this is to get right,
perhaps acquire the latest version of AVIDEMUX, which
now supports a lot more than AVI, and see if every video
format you test, "smoothly" takes your jog and shuttle
requests.

The version of AVIDEMUX I use, is an older one, that only
supports AVI (and supports a folder of numbered image files
as a representation of a video track). I find the breadth
of formats the newer versions support (likely written by
someone else), the tool quality isn't quite the same.

The video formats we have, the specs for them have been
written over a long span of years. And some of those efforts are
a lot more "comprehensible" than the others. Maybe some
of them support timecodes, and others do not.

Paul

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Paul

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Having read the thread in their forum, I didn't bother joining the
forum just to ask for this, because plenty of others had, and it was
fairly clear that it wouldn't be added.

Post by NY
I think what they meant was that there are a few arcane
circumstances when a clash cannot be detected when you define the
recordings, only when they actually take place, and they are
extrapolating and saying "because it can't be done in a few obscure
cases, we don't want to do it for *all* straightforward cases of
linear broadcasting where it is possible".

The VLC back-frame case the response seemed to be that - especially
for some video formats - it would be _difficult_. It certainly isn't
impossible - as several of the requesters pointed out, it should be
possible to memorise the frames, even if back-frame was only provided
from the point where one started using forward-frame: in most cases,
where back-frame would be handy is where one has paused the video and
is trying to find a specific frame, and is inching forward, but goes
past the one you want (thinking "the next frame might be better - oh
drat, it isn't", when "back" would be Very Handy). Certainly, the
argument that for some video file formats a _general_ back-frame
button would be hard does crop up, but the buffer idea is dismissed.

Part of the problem with this feature request, is
working on it until it is perfect. The developers
have a fair idea, how many "bug reports" a feature
request will generate. Video, internally, does
have lots of sharp edges to cut yourself on.

Understood. However, I'd rather have the feature "buggy" than not at

Post by Paul
Some video standards, the solution is obvious. But
there are other video standards, where the poor quality
of the specification, has had downstream effects from
day one. If someone had written a "reference design",
that would have clarified how the format was supposed
to work, that would have left the "spec" in the dust.

[]

Post by Paul
If you want to see how hard this is to get right,
perhaps acquire the latest version of AVIDEMUX, which
now supports a lot more than AVI, and see if every video
format you test, "smoothly" takes your jog and shuttle
requests.

There isn't a corresponding version of VirtualDub, is there? That's
about the only thing I use for editing, as opposed to viewing (and
taking stills from) videos.
[]

Post by Paul
The video formats we have, the specs for them have been
written over a long span of years. And some of those efforts are
a lot more "comprehensible" than the others. Maybe some
of them support timecodes, and others do not.
Paul

I understand the difficulties. I'd accept either a back-frame button
that was greyed out for some formats, or (probably better if these are
the only two options) the buffering solution someone suggested that only
started storing frames once the user started using the forward-frame
button, and only allowed stepping back to that point (and maybe a
maximum of five or ten frames too).

VLC is, for me, an excellent viewer; it's my default (for video; I use
different things for audio and for stills). And it's free, so no
_justification_ in complaining about it.

[NY]

Post by Paul
Part of the problem with this feature request, is
working on it until it is perfect. The developers
have a fair idea, how many "bug reports" a feature
request will generate. Video, internally, does
have lots of sharp edges to cut yourself on.
Some video standards, the solution is obvious. But
there are other video standards, where the poor quality
of the specification, has had downstream effects from
day one. If someone had written a "reference design",
that would have clarified how the format was supposed
to work, that would have left the "spec" in the dust.

VideoReDo has had the ability to step or play backwards, when finding
the exact frame where you want to make a cut, for about 10 years. That's
working with MPEG-2 (SD) and H264 (HD) broadcast video, in MPG, DVR-MS,
WTV and TS containers. It may involve the software looking backwards for
the most recent key frame and then calculating all the incremental
frames forwards from there to the currently-displayed frame, so any of
those frames can be displayed as the user steps backwards. A bit
involved - but achievable.

But there may be video/compression formats where this is not as easy -
maybe ones that VRD happens not to support anyway.

[NY]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by NY
VLC hasn't had a new release for ages, which makes me think that
development has stalled. I raised a bug ages ago on the VLC forum
relating to the fact that the current version freezes the picture
(but the sound continues) if you single-frame advance for more than
a couple of frames, whereas the older versions didn't have that bug.
I can reproduce it on various operating systems: Windows 7, Windows
10, Linux Debian (eg Ubuntu, Raspbian). The response on the forum
was "never seen that one before" with the implication "so you must
be imagining it" :-(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player
Doesn't have a release history listing, but mentions 3.0.21 came out 11
days ago. Doesn't seem development has stalled.

Then it's the first new release for a long time. I downloaded the
installation file for 3.0.20 on 15 Nov 2023 which suggests it was
release before then. There was a time when a new VLC came out every
month or so, and my perception is that this slowed down around 3.0.15 or so.

Ah, I've managed to get the Wikipedia page to open the table of releases
and dates:

3.0.12 Vetinari 2021-01-18
3.0.13 Vetinari 2021-05-10
3.0.14 Vetinari 2021-05-11
3.0.16 Vetinari 2021-06-21
3.0.17 Vetinari 2022-04-19
3.0.18 Vetinari 2022-11-29
3.0.19 Vetinari 2023-09-30
3.0.20 Vetinari 2023-11-01

So there were four in rapid succession in 2021, then two each in 2022
and 2023. OK, so some of the 2021 ones may be bug fixes of new features
introduced in the first 2021 one ;-)


I'm sticking to my 2.1.5 which may not be able to play H265 (UHD) videos
but which at least allows me to pause/resume and single-step to my
heart's content without it getting into a state where the video freezes
while the audio can still be played. Am I *really* the only person who
has ever experienced that bug with 3.0.x (on multiple PCs with Windows
and Linux)? Or is pausing/resuming regarded as non-typical usage? Or is
it specific to UK MPEG-2 and H264 off-air TV .ts files, and not seen in
other file formats or in ATSC rather than DVB broadcasts - is it a case
of "the world ends at the US shores"?

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by NY

Post by VanguardLH

Post by NY
VLC hasn't had a new release for ages, which makes me think that
development has stalled. I raised a bug ages ago on the VLC forum
relating to the fact that the current version freezes the picture
(but the sound continues) if you single-frame advance for more than
a couple of frames, whereas the older versions didn't have that bug.

[]

Post by NY

Post by VanguardLH

Post by NY
was "never seen that one before" with the implication "so you must
be imagining it" :-(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player
Doesn't have a release history listing, but mentions 3.0.21 came out

[]

Post by NY
release before then. There was a time when a new VLC came out every
month or so, and my perception is that this slowed down around 3.0.15 or so.

Yes, and I used to let them install - always a bad idea, but was
_usually_ OK.
[]

Post by NY
3.0.16 Vetinari 2021-06-21
3.0.17 Vetinari 2022-04-19
3.0.18 Vetinari 2022-11-29
3.0.19 Vetinari 2023-09-30
3.0.20 Vetinari 2023-11-01

(I hadn't noticed they all had the same name!)

Post by NY
So there were four in rapid succession in 2021, then two each in 2022
and 2023. OK, so some of the 2021 ones may be bug fixes of new features
introduced in the first 2021 one ;-)
I'm sticking to my 2.1.5 which may not be able to play H265 (UHD)
videos but which at least allows me to pause/resume and single-step to
my heart's content without it getting into a state where the video
freezes while the audio can still be played. Am I *really* the only
person who has ever experienced that bug with 3.0.x (on multiple PCs
with Windows and Linux)? Or is pausing/resuming regarded as non-typical

I _think_ I may have experienced it; certainly I've found it sometimes
flaky. Various combinations of slo-mo, pausing, etc., have sometimes got
it into a pixellated state - obviously there's a difference in how it
implements difference frames - which playing the same segment again at
normal speed resolves. The only bug I can _remember_ that was fixable by
going back to an earlier version was that after some update, it was no
longer able to edit metadata: it seemed to, but when you told it to save
your changes, it didn't. (You could tell it had failed: normally, if you
leave the video playing when you first edit metadata, when you click the
save metadata button it freezes with the last video line repeated down
the image [though it does save the metadata changes]; when it wasn't
going to save your changes, the video keeps playing. Still applies
occasionally.) I stayed with the earlier version - I think it had an 11
in it, so maybe 3.0.11. I've changed computer since then, so don't know
if it was that or that I'm now on 3.0.19.

Not sure why I'm not on 3.0.21 - possibly because setting up the
interface (and other settings) how I like it is fiddly, and about two
recent updates reset them all to the defaults, so maybe I turned off the
tell-me-about-updates.

Post by NY
usage? Or is it specific to UK MPEG-2 and H264 off-air TV .ts files,
and not seen in other file formats or in ATSC rather than DVB
broadcasts - is it a case of "the world ends at the US shores"?

(I haven't used an off-air for a while - I usually get it from iPlayer
or Sounds. [yt-dlp works fine with those.] Not sure about non-BBC
though.)

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by VanguardLH
Doesn't have a release history listing, but mentions 3.0.21 came out

[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Not sure why I'm not on 3.0.21 - possibly because setting up the
interface (and other settings) how I like it is fiddly, and about two
recent updates reset them all to the defaults, so maybe I turned off
the tell-me-about-updates.

[]
After this discussion here, I decided to look at updating from my
3.0.19, so clicked the check for updates; it told me 3.0.20 was
available (it didn't mention '21), and what the changes were, so I
decided to go for it, with a little trepidation. During the
installation, it offered to use existing settings, which was a relief.

BUT:
1. first time I tried it, it opened in a window that was partly off
bottom right of my screen (for example, the minimise/maximise/close
buttons were off the right). Fortunately I knew about alt-space, and was
able to restore it, and it remembered _that_ setting.
2. It has screwed up my control buttons again. That is going to be the
usual pain to restore. (Because the edit interface function seems to
have about two or three different button bars to edit, and they aren't
what they seem to be.)
So first thing I'll be looking for is to turn _off_ the check for
updates, and won't be updating again unless there's a very good reason
(such as a single-frame-back button).

[NY]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

 Doesn't have a release history listing, but mentions 3.0.21 came out

[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Not sure why I'm not on 3.0.21 - possibly because setting up the
interface (and other settings) how I like it is fiddly, and about two
recent updates reset them all to the defaults, so maybe I turned off
the tell-me-about-updates.

[]
After this discussion here, I decided to look at updating from my
3.0.19, so clicked the check for updates; it told me 3.0.20 was
available (it didn't mention '21), and what the changes were, so I
decided to go for it, with a little trepidation. During the
installation, it offered to use existing settings, which was a relief.
1. first time I tried it, it opened in a window that was partly off
bottom right of my screen (for example, the minimise/maximise/close
buttons were off the right). Fortunately I knew about alt-space, and was
able to restore it, and it remembered _that_ setting.
2. It has screwed up my control buttons again. That is going to be the
usual pain to restore. (Because the edit interface function seems to
have about two or three different button bars to edit, and they aren't
what they seem to be.)
So first thing I'll be looking for is to turn _off_ the check for
updates, and won't be updating again unless there's a very good reason
(such as a single-frame-back button).

Interesting. I upgraded from 3.0.20 to 3.0.21 last night and everything
seems to be the same - no changes to control panel buttons and to
position of window on screen. But that was an explicit download of the
exe file from the VLC site, rather than using the "Check for updates"
method which may download/install in a subtly different way.

That's on Win 10.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <***@brightview.co.uk> at Thu,
20 Jun 2024 10:53:12, NY <***@privacy.net> writes
[]

Post by NY
Interesting. I upgraded from 3.0.20 to 3.0.21 last night and everything
seems to be the same - no changes to control panel buttons and to
position of window on screen. But that was an explicit download of the
exe file from the VLC site, rather than using the "Check for updates"
method which may download/install in a subtly different way.
That's on Win 10.

Interesting. I'm on 7, and it has occurred to me that it _possibly_
isn't _finding_ my old version. I'm letting it put it where it wants, so
it presumably did that last time and should have found it - and it _did_
ask if I wanted to use existing settings (which it even said was the
recommended option), which suggests it did find the existing settings;
but I don't have its shortcut in its normal place in the start menu (I
have it in a "!videos" subfolder), and it had created a new folder of
shortcuts. But giving the "use existing settings" option ... it wasn't
just the arrangement of buttons it had changed, for example "Pause on
the last frame of a video" - which defaults to unticked and I had ticked
- was back to unticked. I don't know yet what other settings, if any, it
had scrambled.

What does 21 add/fix over 20?

[Ant]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by NY
Interesting. I upgraded from 3.0.20 to 3.0.21 last night and everything
seems to be the same - no changes to control panel buttons and to
position of window on screen. But that was an explicit download of the
exe file from the VLC site, rather than using the "Check for updates"
method which may download/install in a subtly different way.
That's on Win 10.

Same on mine.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Interesting. I'm on 7, and it has occurred to me that it _possibly_
isn't _finding_ my old version. I'm letting it put it where it wants, so
it presumably did that last time and should have found it - and it _did_
ask if I wanted to use existing settings (which it even said was the
recommended option), which suggests it did find the existing settings;
but I don't have its shortcut in its normal place in the start menu (I
have it in a "!videos" subfolder), and it had created a new folder of
shortcuts. But giving the "use existing settings" option ... it wasn't
just the arrangement of buttons it had changed, for example "Pause on
the last frame of a video" - which defaults to unticked and I had ticked
- was back to unticked. I don't know yet what other settings, if any, it
had scrambled.
What does 21 add/fix over 20?

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33895824-Updated-VLC-Media-Player-v3-0-21 for its release notes.

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Ant

Post by J. P. Gilliver
What does 21 add/fix over 20?

https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33895824-Updated-VLC-Media-Player-v3-0-21
for its release notes.

Thanks for that. Mostly over my head, and I didn't see anything I'm
likely to need, so I'll stick with 20 for now, especially as I've got
the buttons back how I want them.

[VanguardLH]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

I don't see a Next Frame function in VLC. I do see a Jump Forward and
Jump Backward entries under the Playback menu, and also in the
navigation toolbar (the one you can customize). Those don't move by
frame. They move to the next or prior sync point for tracking.

I've never used hotkeys in VLC, just the GUI objects. From:

https://wiki.videolan.org/Documentation:Hotkeys/

reminded me of the hotkeys config options in VLC. I saw 'e' for Next
Frame, but no Prior Frame option. Using the search filter on "frame"
shows only the Next Frame option. The Left and Right arrow keys will
jump backward or forward (by 10 seconds), and Shift+Left and Shift+Right
will do the same, but in smaller jumps (3 seconds).

Did not find a Prior Frame function. Guess the workaround is to use
Shift+Left to jump back 3 seconds, and then use 'e' to frame forward.

[VanguardLH]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

I don't see a Next Frame function in VLC. I do see a Jump Forward and
Jump Backward entries under the Playback menu, and also in the
navigation toolbar (the one you can customize). Those don't move by
frame. They move to the next or prior sync point for tracking.
https://wiki.videolan.org/Documentation:Hotkeys/
reminded me of the hotkeys config options in VLC. I saw 'e' for Next
Frame, but no Prior Frame option. Using the search filter on "frame"
shows only the Next Frame option. The Left and Right arrow keys will
jump backward or forward (by 10 seconds), and Shift+Left and Shift+Right
will do the same, but in smaller jumps (3 seconds).
Did not find a Prior Frame function. Guess the workaround is to use
Shift+Left to jump back 3 seconds, and then use 'e' to frame forward.

Ah, after seeing John's mention of going into advanced mode for
settings, and selecting Hotkeys, yep, you can set how large or small are
the jumps. Those are in second increments, not frames. By frame for
jumping would be much more granular than by seconds.

[John]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by VanguardLH

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

I don't see a Next Frame function in VLC. I do see a Jump Forward and
Jump Backward entries under the Playback menu, and also in the
navigation toolbar (the one you can customize). Those don't move by
frame. They move to the next or prior sync point for tracking.
https://wiki.videolan.org/Documentation:Hotkeys/
reminded me of the hotkeys config options in VLC. I saw 'e' for Next
Frame, but no Prior Frame option. Using the search filter on "frame"
shows only the Next Frame option. The Left and Right arrow keys will
jump backward or forward (by 10 seconds), and Shift+Left and Shift+Right
will do the same, but in smaller jumps (3 seconds).
Did not find a Prior Frame function. Guess the workaround is to use
Shift+Left to jump back 3 seconds, and then use 'e' to frame forward.

Ah, after seeing John's mention of going into advanced mode for
settings, and selecting Hotkeys, yep, you can set how large or small are
the jumps. Those are in second increments, not frames. By frame for
jumping would be much more granular than by seconds.

"Seconds"? Oh. Sorry.

I'll shut up, now.

J.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

I don't see a Next Frame function in VLC. I do see a Jump Forward and
Jump Backward entries under the Playback menu, and also in the
navigation toolbar (the one you can customize). Those don't move by

One of the buttons you can customise into the toolbar is indeed next
frame - it looks like the play triangle with a white line near the left
edge.

Post by VanguardLH
frame. They move to the next or prior sync point for tracking.
https://wiki.videolan.org/Documentation:Hotkeys/

You can also get to it inside the prog. via Tools, Preferences, Hotkeys
settings (where you can change the hotkeys).

Post by VanguardLH
reminded me of the hotkeys config options in VLC. I saw 'e' for Next
Frame, but no Prior Frame option. Using the search filter on "frame"

I've established there is no previous frame function. (Although some
other players do implement it - for some formats at least, even the
venerable VirtualDub - I can see _why_ it's a lot harder to do than
frame forwards.)

Post by VanguardLH
shows only the Next Frame option. The Left and Right arrow keys will
jump backward or forward (by 10 seconds), and Shift+Left and Shift+Right
will do the same, but in smaller jumps (3 seconds).

You can change the size of the four jumps (Very short, Short, Medium,
and Long) - just below the table of hotkeys as above. (In seconds.)

Post by VanguardLH
Did not find a Prior Frame function. Guess the workaround is to use
Shift+Left to jump back 3 seconds, and then use 'e' to frame forward.

Yes.

For short videos, an overkill is IrfanView's "Extract all frames"
option.

[Paul]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've found "next frame", default hotkey (lower case) e, but can't seem
to find a previous frame.

I don't see a Next Frame function in VLC.  I do see a Jump Forward and
Jump Backward entries under the Playback menu, and also in the
navigation toolbar (the one you can customize).  Those don't move by

One of the buttons you can customise into the toolbar is indeed next frame - it looks like the play triangle with a white line near the left edge.

frame.  They move to the next or prior sync point for tracking.
https://wiki.videolan.org/Documentation:Hotkeys/

You can also get to it inside the prog. via Tools, Preferences, Hotkeys settings (where you can change the hotkeys).

reminded me of the hotkeys config options in VLC.  I saw 'e' for Next
Frame, but no Prior Frame option.  Using the search filter on "frame"

I've established there is no previous frame function. (Although some other players do implement it - for some formats at least, even the venerable VirtualDub - I can see _why_ it's a lot harder to do than frame forwards.)

shows only the Next Frame option.  The Left and Right arrow keys will
jump backward or forward (by 10 seconds), and Shift+Left and Shift+Right
will do the same, but in smaller jumps (3 seconds).

You can change the size of the four jumps (Very short, Short, Medium, and Long) - just below the table of hotkeys as above. (In seconds.)

Did not find a Prior Frame function.  Guess the workaround is to use
Shift+Left to jump back 3 seconds, and then use 'e' to frame forward.

Yes.
For short videos, an overkill is IrfanView's "Extract all frames" option.

AVIDemux has forward-a-frame or back-a-frame.

But then the codec support is variable (older versions worked nice, but
very few codecs present).

Some movie formats have two encodings. Unidirectional or bidirectional.
Using a bidirectional encoding (likely a flavor of frame in the center
of a group of pictures) costs a bit on file size. But it is supposed
to make stepping backwards easier.

<------------- 1 second -----------> 30 FPS video

X 15 frames X 15 frames X # Two "Groups of pictures" (GOP) per second, 0.5 second "resolution"
# in a reverse step, you should never have to go back more than 0.5 seconds.
# Max GOP size is 600 frames in a group.

<------------- 1 second -----------> 24 FPS video

X 12 frames X 12 frames X # Two "Groups of pictures" (GOP) per second, 0.5 second "resolution"
# in a reverse step, you should never have to go back more than 0.5 seconds.
# Max GOP size is 600 frames in a group.

When I tested VLC with a reversible format, no extra buttons appeared.

You can convert a movie into a folder of JPG files. AVIDemux will play
a folder of JPG files, as long as they are sequentially numbered.
a00001.jpg , a00002.jpg and so on.

ffmpeg -i some.mp4 -f image2 -q:v 1 -c:v mjpeg a%05d.jpg # put ffmpeg.exe and some.mp4 in the destination folder

If you were to use .bmp format, you can run out of space at the destination.
The choice of JPG isn't ideal, but the files are smaller.

Paul

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Paul

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I've established there is no previous frame function. (Although some
other players do implement it - for some formats at least, even the
venerable VirtualDub - I can see _why_ it's a lot harder to do than
frame forwards.)

[]

Post by Paul

Post by J. P. Gilliver
For short videos, an overkill is IrfanView's "Extract all frames" option.

AVIDemux has forward-a-frame or back-a-frame.
But then the codec support is variable (older versions worked nice, but
very few codecs present).

Presumably like VirtualDub.

Post by Paul
Some movie formats have two encodings. Unidirectional or bidirectional.
Using a bidirectional encoding (likely a flavor of frame in the center
of a group of pictures) costs a bit on file size. But it is supposed
to make stepping backwards easier.

I can see that it would. Presumably, in effect, coding differences in
both directions - would more or less double (on average) the size of the
intermediate frames.
[]

Post by Paul
When I tested VLC with a reversible format, no extra buttons appeared.

No, from that thread I found in the forum another pointed me to, it
seems fairly clear that the coders have no intention of implementing a
previous-frame button, even if only for some formats.

Post by Paul
You can convert a movie into a folder of JPG files. AVIDemux will play
a folder of JPG files, as long as they are sequentially numbered.
a00001.jpg , a00002.jpg and so on.

That's what IrfanView does. Of course, it makes quite a big directory,
and the sound is lost.

Post by Paul
ffmpeg -i some.mp4 -f image2 -q:v 1 -c:v mjpeg a%05d.jpg # put
ffmpeg.exe and some.mp4 in the destination folder

If that's how to do the splitting, it's probably what IrfanView does.
(Though actually there are no files with ffmpeg in the name in the
IrfanView areas, so maybe it does its own thing; it's pretty efficient
code.)

Post by Paul
If you were to use .bmp format, you can run out of space at the destination.
The choice of JPG isn't ideal, but the files are smaller.

On the whole, especially for movies, it's usually acceptable.

Post by Paul
Paul

John