Used machine no PIN

[g***@aol.com]

I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.

I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

[Ralph Fox]

Post by g***@aol.com
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Windows 10 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Windows 11 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

If you still don't see them, refresh your newsgroups list.

Post by g***@aol.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564

In Agent 1.91: Online >> Refresh Groups List


If you were looking in Google Groups you may not find them.
Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
some years ago.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by g***@aol.com
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Windows 10 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Windows 11 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

[]

Post by Ralph Fox
If you were looking in Google Groups you may not find them.

I don't think you will ...

Post by Ralph Fox
Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
some years ago.

... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.

[c***@here.org]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:09:36 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
DEL

Post by J. P. Gilliver
... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.

That's when people and not corporations owned the Internet.

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by g***@aol.com
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Windows 10 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-10
Windows 11 newsgroup: alt.comp.os.windows-11

[]

Post by Ralph Fox
If you were looking in Google Groups you may not find them.

I don't think you will ...

Post by Ralph Fox
Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
some years ago.

... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.

Google Groups indeed does not carry alt.comp.os.windows-10 and
alt.comp.os.windows-11, but *does* have some (relatively) recent groups,
for example:

<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>

I don't have any other example, but guess that Google Groups adds Big
Eight groups like comp.*, but no alt.* groups.

BTW, while several search facilities of Google Groups have been
removed over time, the are still some *per group* methods and you can
reference threads and articles in a specific group:

[Courtesy Marcel Logen in news.software.readers:]

[FS:This will give you a search window at the top of the article list:]

<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers>

<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/jKhjVTx6bT8>
<https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers/c/jKhjVTx6bT8/m/4Zry0MsJAQAJ>
g = group
c = thread (conversation)
m = message
Unfortunately, it is not possible to see the original message-id of a
message.

[Ralph Fox]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ralph Fox
Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
some years ago.

... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.

Nonsense.

There are newsgroups on Google groups which did not exist
back when Google took over dejanews in February 2001.

So obviously Google Groups _has_ made updates to its list
at some time.

To give a few examples:

* microsoft.public.windows.vista.security -- added to Google Groups in January 2007
<https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windows.vista.security>

* mozilla.support.firefox -- added to Google Groups in January 2006
<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.firefox>

* nz.tech -- newsgroup created February 2003
<https://groups.google.com/g/nz.tech>

* nz.soc.maori -- newsgroup created December 2002
<https://groups.google.com/g/nz.soc.maori>

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by J. P. Gilliver
... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.

Nonsense.
There are newsgroups on Google groups which did not exist
back when Google took over dejanews in February 2001.
So obviously Google Groups _has_ made updates to its list
at some time.

Well, I did say "I don't think": I'd picked that up somewhere.
[]
Maybe as another suggested it does ones in "the big 8", or another
possibility that occurs to me is that maybe it has some mechanism by
which users can request additions, rather than it doing them
automatically as they appear.

[Ralph Fox]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Maybe as another suggested it does ones in "the big 8",

Newsgroup alt.comp.os.windows-xp was added to Google Groups
in December 2002, after Google took over dejanews.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
or another
possibility that occurs to me is that maybe it has some mechanism by
which users can request additions, rather than it doing them
automatically as they appear.

Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
seems to have disappeared many years ago.

[Ralph Fox]

[]

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by J. P. Gilliver
or another
possibility that occurs to me is that maybe it has some mechanism by
which users can request additions, rather than it doing them
automatically as they appear.

Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
seems to have disappeared many years ago.

Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>

See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"

That mechanism seems no longer to exist.

[Java Jive]

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by Ralph Fox
Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
seems to have disappeared many years ago.

Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>
See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"
That mechanism seems no longer to exist.

That is pretty standard Google behaviour. I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade or
more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.
Problem is: too much Artificial Stupidity, not enough real live humans.

[Daniel65]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Ralph Fox

Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions seems
to have disappeared many years ago.

Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>
See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"
That mechanism seems no longer to exist.

That is pretty standard Google behaviour. I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade
or more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.
Problem is: too much Artificial Stupidity, not enough real live humans.

Hey!! Even Google has to save a Buck or Two when it can!! ;-)

[Ralph Fox]

Post by Java Jive

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by Ralph Fox
Google Groups' mechanism for _users_ to request additions
seems to have disappeared many years ago.

Here is an archived link to that mechanism, from July 2005.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20050721035854/http://groups.google.com:80/googlegroups/help.html#added>
See item #14, "How can I ask for a newsgroup to be added?"
That mechanism seems no longer to exist.

That is pretty standard Google behaviour. I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade or
more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.

Note the word "archived". Google took that documentation down
long ago, back in 2005.

It is not Google's behaviour that the Wayback Machine has
archived copies of old web pages. You can go to
<https://archive.org/web/web.php>, type in an old URL, and
look for historical versions of a web page archived at
various dates in the past.

[Java Jive]

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by Java Jive
That is pretty standard Google behaviour. I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade or
more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.

Note the word "archived". Google took that documentation down
long ago, back in 2005.
It is not Google's behaviour that the Wayback Machine has
archived copies of old web pages. You can go to
<https://archive.org/web/web.php>, type in an old URL, and
look for historical versions of a web page archived at
various dates in the past.

https://groups.google.com/g/google-ajax-search-api/c/UaaE7bw2WfA

I rest my case, m'lud.

[Jack]

That is pretty standard Google behaviour.  I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade
or more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.
Problem is: too much Artificial Stupidity, not enough real live humans.

Blame the archive portal NOT Google. Google hasn't got that document
online. Nothing about "too much Artificial Stupidity". How did you come
to this conclusion?

Google still has many live humans but they don't want to support their
forums any more because all the solutions are online using their highly
popular search engine.

The last I heard was that google wants to disband their forums and free
up space on their servers because not many people are using them. Google
is a business NOT some hobby project so they need to generate revenue.
spammers don't share their ethos so the best they can do is to shut it
down and let others take it over.

They have recently sold (given away) their Domains portal to SquareSpace
because Google don't see any value in selling domains to the general
public. <https://9to5google.com/2023/06/15/google-domains-squarespace/>

[Java Jive]

Post by Jack

That is pretty standard Google behaviour.  I've known other examples
where their documentation has remained online despite being a decade
or more out of date, and therefore had become downright misleading.
Problem is: too much Artificial Stupidity, not enough real live humans.

Blame the archive portal NOT Google. Google hasn't got that document
online.

I was speaking generally.

Post by Jack
Nothing about "too much Artificial Stupidity". How did you come
to this conclusion?

Very simple. Ask yourself the following question, when was the last
time you were able to report a fault or complain about their services to
a real person actually employed by Google? To all intents and purposes,
it's impossible. That's why there is still misleading documentation
online labelled Copyright 2023 about services that they deprecated 13
years ago and stopped 9 years ago.

Post by Jack
Google still has many live humans but they don't want to support their
forums any more because all the solutions are online using their highly
popular search engine.

Which is exactly the problem I was highlighting. See above.

[Jack]

Very simple.  Ask yourself the following question, when was the last
time you were able to report a fault or complain about their services
to a real person actually employed by Google?  To all intents and
purposes, it's impossible.  That's why there is still misleading
documentation online labelled Copyright 2023 about services that they
deprecated 13 years ago and stopped 9 years ago.

I do all the time. The products I use are Google Cloud and I report
problems almost immediately when I see one. I get response from them
within an hour. by the way I like to contact them by email or their chat
line. I don't like speaking to them in person because I like to have a
record of what they are saying. The chat line and email are answered by
real, live human beings because the questions are quite specific to my
service that I pay for.

Which products do you use from google? I use gmail and Google Drive
(free service) but there I have not had any problems. They just work
when I use them. The person has to be really stupid if they have
problems using gmail or Google Drive.

I bought some domains from google and there also I haven't had any
problems so far. With domains you buy once for say 10 years and forget
about them unless you want to change your website host. But generally,
they are self serviced so again anybody can use that service. I will
move this service to some other registrar or to Microsoft because I
don't know anything about Squarespace who have acquired this part of
Google service.

Post by Jack
Google still has many live humans but they don't want to support their
forums any more because all the solutions are online using their highly
popular search engine.

Which is exactly the problem I was highlighting.  See above.

You didn't say which service you are talking about. For most service a
search engine is all you need so can you elaborate on which service
requires human intervention. for free services they have their own
dedicated forums where some staff [sometimes] and community members can
answer in person. Don't tell me you expect google employee to answer
your questions for a free service. Forums are the best place for them.

If you are a corporate then you can ring up Google's local office for
quotation and further clarification but this is for corporates using
their cloud service. Google has their hardware support department but I
haven't used that nor do I use any of their hardware. are you using
anything from google? Some are using Android phones but do you need a
human to solve your problems for that? I thought Android phones must be
quite intuitive like other phones.

[Java Jive]

Post by Jack

Very simple.  Ask yourself the following question, when was the last
time you were able to report a fault or complain about their services
to a real person actually employed by Google?  To all intents and
purposes, it's impossible.  That's why there is still misleading
documentation online labelled Copyright 2023 about services that they
deprecated 13 years ago and stopped 9 years ago.

I do all the time. The products I use are Google Cloud

As explained in the link in my reply to Ralph Fox, try using their
services on your website. It was such a nightmare over many years that,
for the moment at least, I've given up - I have more important things
to do than keep updating otherwise perfectly working webpages because
Google keep changing, or even worse withdrawing, services.

[Newyana2]

"Java Jive" <***@evij.com.invalid> wrote

| As explained in the link in my reply to Ralph Fox, try using their
| services on your website. It was such a nightmare over many years that,
| for the moment at least, I've given up - I have more important things
| to do than keep updating otherwise perfectly working webpages because
| Google keep changing, or even worse withdrawing, services.
|

I agree about the bots. Most big companies are now
looking for ways to replace humans. Tech companies
most of all because they operate on very simple profit
motive basis. The more they can automate, the more
they can just go home and let the money roll in. This past
week I had to call my cable service company. It's several
minutes of inane recordings and choices that are all trying
to tell me that I don't really need to call them, before finally
being assigned a spot for an 18 minute wait... And that's
a good one. Some companies now only pretend that they'll
ever answer the phone.

On the other hand, you're using free services. Why
should you get tech support? And your use of free services
on your website is helping Google to spy on your visitors.
So the rest of us have to block Gooogle domains. (I also
block statcounter, which is a lazy way for you to get
free website stats, and allow more 3rd party spying,
without having to learn how to read your own server
logs.)

I was using the free Google REST API for awhile for my own
map software. Then they changed the deal and required
a credit card. That was frustrating, but I can hardly
fault them. I was getting maps for free, with aalmost no benefit
to them. My use of their maps was nothing more than a cheap
ad for Google. I switched to Bing maps, which turned out to
be a bit better except for the streetview. For now Bing
maps are still free to access without letting them hold my
credit card and threated sudden charges. But all of these
companies have profit strategies. They're not just there
to serve us.

At this point the entire Internet arguably runs on scam.
A scammer tempts you with a free bauble and tries to pick
your pocket while you grab it. You try to get the bauble
while protecting your wallet. Neither side is being honest.
Even the big media companies and retail stores, who should
be above the fray, are constantly coming up with new scams
to improve spying and ad income.

In any case, you don't need Google on your site, but you
could stand to have some design help. Dark navy background
with turquoise text? Is that left over from your teen gamer
days... chartreuse text faded to turquoise? :)

[Java Jive]

Post by Newyana2
On the other hand, you're using free services. Why
should you get tech support?

All the more reason to remove outdated tech support from their site,
rather than leaving extant to confuse people for more than a decade
afterwards.

Post by Newyana2
And your use of free services
on your website is helping Google to spy on your visitors.

No, I've read Shoshana Zuboff's book 'The Age Of Surveillance
Capitalism', so I'm very well aware of how Google tries to monetise
everything in sight, but they were very limited in what they could
achieve through users of my site, because it's free, cookie-free, etc.
I'm pretty sure that all that Google could know is that they had a
request via my site for the code to load their maps, and that
subsequently that code loaded certain map tiles. I don't think they
would have had any way of identifying the browser, because as a
developer I could see the traffic coming in and going out of the browser
when loading a page on my site, so if Google had been spying on my
customers, I would almost certainly have known about it.

Post by Newyana2
So the rest of us have to block Gooogle domains.

If you block Google domains (even if you spell them correctly) then any
page on my site that uses Google Maps will not function. As those pages
are primarily built around the use of maps, that would completely
nullify the point of visiting them in the first place.

Post by Newyana2
(I also
block statcounter, which is a lazy way for you to get
free website stats, and allow more 3rd party spying,
without having to learn how to read your own server
logs.)

You're welcome to block StatCounter.

I'm perfectly capable of reading server logs, but the statistical
information that you get from that is limited. Alternatively I could
use the software provided by my web-host, but the same considerations
would apply as for StatCounter.

Post by Newyana2
I was using the free Google REST API for awhile for my own
map software. Then they changed the deal and required
a credit card. That was frustrating, but I can hardly
fault them. I was getting maps for free, with aalmost no benefit
to them. My use of their maps was nothing more than a cheap
ad for Google. I switched to Bing maps, which turned out to
be a bit better except for the streetview. For now Bing
maps are still free to access without letting them hold my
credit card and threated sudden charges. But all of these
companies have profit strategies. They're not just there
to serve us.

Yes, and that's why, if I do try and fix my web-pages that Google have
broken, I almost certainly will not be using any service provided by Google.

Post by Newyana2
At this point the entire Internet arguably runs on scam.
A scammer tempts you with a free bauble and tries to pick
your pocket while you grab it. You try to get the bauble
while protecting your wallet. Neither side is being honest.
Even the big media companies and retail stores, who should
be above the fray, are constantly coming up with new scams
to improve spying and ad income.

Yes, but that is nothing to do with me or my site, so go rant about
somewhere else.

Post by Newyana2
In any case, you don't need Google on your site, but you
could stand to have some design help. Dark navy background
with turquoise text?

It's white text, turquoise is only the colour for unvisited links.

Post by Newyana2
Is that left over from your teen gamer
days... chartreuse text faded to turquoise? :)

Look up about colour vision, colour blindness, and visual glare.

[Newyana2]

"Java Jive" <***@evij.com.invalid> wrote

| No, I've read Shoshana Zuboff's book 'The Age Of Surveillance
| Capitalism', so I'm very well aware of how Google tries to monetise
| everything in sight, but they were very limited in what they could
| achieve through users of my site, because it's free, cookie-free, etc.
| I'm pretty sure that all that Google could know is that they had a
| request via my site for the code to load their maps, and that
| subsequently that code loaded certain map tiles. I don't think they
| would have had any way of identifying the browser, because as a
| developer I could see the traffic coming in and going out of the browser
| when loading a page on my site, so if Google had been spying on my
| customers, I would almost certainly have known about it.
|

If someone visits your site and views a Google map, they're calling
the Google server. At the next site they might get Google fonts,
google-analytics, googletagmanager... Nearly every commercial site
has Google links, using their services or selling ads. That allows Google
to trackindividuals around the Internet. It's not so much about spying
on your webpage. It's an aggregate process.
| > So the rest of us have to block Gooogle domains.
|
| If you block Google domains (even if you spell them correctly) then any
| page on my site that uses Google Maps will not function. As those pages
| are primarily built around the use of maps, that would completely
| nullify the point of visiting them in the first place.
|
Yes. I don't see Google maps. On sites I design where a map
is needed I get one from OpenStreetMap. There's no sense at all in
making every visitor call Google, all to get the same map.

| You're welcome to block StatCounter.
|
| I'm perfectly capable of reading server logs, but the statistical
| information that you get from that is limited.

?? I process my logs and read them directly so that I can
see visitors in real time, which tells
me about what people are interested in, how long the stay
on a page, etc. I do a hostname call on each IP and run each
through a location database. So I typically get the originating
domain, though not always. I usually get city/state/country.
Then of course I get userAgent. I don't know what else one
could expect to get. The nice thing with actually reading the
processed logs is that I'm not just seeing numbers. I'm seeing
that someone on Win10 with Firefox came from Munich and
landed at page x, where they looked things over for a couple of
minutes, then maybe downloaded file y, then maybe looked at
page z and left. Or they might have downloaded another file
10 minutes later.

I learn useful things that way. One of the oddest things I've
noticed is that time and again someone tries to download
my software from a free download site. But the link is out of
date, for an earlier version, so it doesn't work. They then come
to my website to see if the software is real. They find the webpage
for it, then they go back to the download site and try again!
Invariably these people then give up. They seem to think that
the author's website may not be legit. So if they can't get it
from freedownloads.com then they give up. It never occurs to
them that freedownloads.com is just linking to my files!

[Java Jive]

Post by Newyana2
| No, I've read Shoshana Zuboff's book 'The Age Of Surveillance
| Capitalism', so I'm very well aware of how Google tries to monetise
| everything in sight, but they were very limited in what they could
| achieve through users of my site, because it's free, cookie-free, etc.
| I'm pretty sure that all that Google could know is that they had a
| request via my site for the code to load their maps, and that
| subsequently that code loaded certain map tiles. I don't think they
| would have had any way of identifying the browser, because as a
| developer I could see the traffic coming in and going out of the browser
| when loading a page on my site, so if Google had been spying on my
| customers, I would almost certainly have known about it.
|
If someone visits your site and views a Google map, they're calling
the Google server. At the next site they might get Google fonts,
google-analytics, googletagmanager... Nearly every commercial site
has Google links, using their services or selling ads. That allows Google
to trackindividuals around the Internet. It's not so much about spying
on your webpage. It's an aggregate process.

They couldn't track the individual via my website. I can't speak for
others.

Post by Newyana2
| > So the rest of us have to block Gooogle domains.
|
| If you block Google domains (even if you spell them correctly) then any
| page on my site that uses Google Maps will not function. As those pages
| are primarily built around the use of maps, that would completely
| nullify the point of visiting them in the first place.
|
Yes. I don't see Google maps. On sites I design where a map
is needed I get one from OpenStreetMap. There's no sense at all in
making every visitor call Google, all to get the same map.
| You're welcome to block StatCounter.
|
| I'm perfectly capable of reading server logs, but the statistical
| information that you get from that is limited.
?? I process my logs and read them directly so that I can
see visitors in real time, which tells
me about what people are interested in, how long the stay
on a page, etc. I do a hostname call on each IP and run each
through a location database. So I typically get the originating
domain, though not always. I usually get city/state/country.
Then of course I get userAgent. I don't know what else one
could expect to get. The nice thing with actually reading the
processed logs is that I'm not just seeing numbers. I'm seeing
that someone on Win10 with Firefox came from Munich and
landed at page x, where they looked things over for a couple of
minutes, then maybe downloaded file y, then maybe looked at
page z and left. Or they might have downloaded another file
10 minutes later.

So you do a lot of work that StatCounter does for free. That's why I
use it, so I don't have to do that work. If you and a few others want
to block it, fine. It won't make much difference to me in the long run.

[Daniel65]

Post by Newyana2
| As explained in the link in my reply to Ralph Fox, try using their
| services on your website. It was such a nightmare over many years that,
| for the moment at least, I've given up - I have more important things
| to do than keep updating otherwise perfectly working webpages because
| Google keep changing, or even worse withdrawing, services.
|
I agree about the bots. Most big companies are now
looking for ways to replace humans. Tech companies
most of all because they operate on very simple profit
motive basis. The more they can automate, the more
they can just go home and let the money roll in. This past
week I had to call my cable service company. It's several
minutes of inane recordings and choices that are all trying
to tell me that I don't really need to call them, before finally
being assigned a spot for an 18 minute wait... And that's
a good one. Some companies now only pretend that they'll
ever answer the phone.

Last week, I had to pass some information to a Government Department so
gave them a ring, fully expecting to be on hold for about half an hour!

But first I needed to make it past the Robot "Have you tried to access
the required Department using your MyGov facility??"

Then "In a few words, tell me what you want to do."
"Sorry, I did not get that."
"Sorry, I did not get that. If you want '#$%^&*'", say '#$%^&*'"
"Sorry, I did not get that. If you want '#$%^&*"', say '#$%^&*' or Press
'1' If you want '*&^%$#', say '*&^%$#' or Press 2"

(Why I didn't get the Keyboard options first up, I've got no idea.)

After I pressed 1 ... "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the
bot hung up on me. No "IF" No "BUT" Just hung up on me, straight up!!

Being determined to do the right thing, I rang back and was told,
straight up "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the bot hung
up on me AGAIN ..... so I then drive the 20-odd kilometers (12 mile,
give or take) to go to the Government Services office and talk to a human!!

[Newyana2]

"Daniel65" <***@nomail.afraid.org> wrote

| Last week, I had to pass some information to a Government Department so
| gave them a ring, fully expecting to be on hold for about half an hour!
|
| But first I needed to make it past the Robot "Have you tried to access
| the required Department using your MyGov facility??"
|
| Then "In a few words, tell me what you want to do."
| "Sorry, I did not get that."
| "Sorry, I did not get that. If you want '#$%^&*'", say '#$%^&*'"
| "Sorry, I did not get that. If you want '#$%^&*"', say '#$%^&*' or Press
| '1' If you want '*&^%$#', say '*&^%$#' or Press 2"
|
| (Why I didn't get the Keyboard options first up, I've got no idea.)
|
| After I pressed 1 ... "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the
| bot hung up on me. No "IF" No "BUT" Just hung up on me, straight up!!
|
| Being determined to do the right thing, I rang back and was told,
| straight up "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the bot hung
| up on me AGAIN ..... so I then drive the 20-odd kilometers (12 mile,
| give or take) to go to the Government Services office and talk to a
human!!


It sounds like you may not be in the US, but it works exactly
the same here. Sometimes repeatedly pressing 0 works to get
a person. Other times it doesn't. And sometimes I've got what
you got -- a sadistic runaround ending with something like,
"Ha ha! We tricked you! Fuck off!"

I was calling RCN last week
and each call followed a slightly different pattern. It turns out they
have a secret code word. At certain points, if I clearly shout
"agent!" then the computer will put me in the waiting line for
actual service.

Once I actually
get through to a human, I've found RCN to provide intelligent,
friendly help almost without exception, but the process I went
through was maybe 90 minutes, just to have them recognize
a modem swap. On the bright side, I have no doubt that Comcast
or Verizon -- other big ISPs -- would be worse.

I'm sometimes reminded of the movie Brazil. I never saw the
whole thing. It was too tedious. But in the opening scene a
SWAT team of black suited officials breaks into a man's apartment
and pulls numerous vent hoses out of the walls, then leaves,
forcing him to buy repair services. The man is distraught, but
just then a "non-union plumber" swoops down onto his balcony,
like Superman, and fixes the damage. :)

[Daniel65]

Post by Newyana2
| Last week, I had to pass some information to a Government Department so
| gave them a ring, fully expecting to be on hold for about half an hour!
|
| But first I needed to make it past the Robot "Have you tried to access
| the required Department using your MyGov facility??"
|
| Then "In a few words, tell me what you want to do."
| "Sorry, I did not get that."
| "Sorry, I did not get that. If you want '#$%^&*'", say '#$%^&*'"
| "Sorry, I did not get that. If you want '#$%^&*"', say '#$%^&*' or Press
| '1' If you want '*&^%$#', say '*&^%$#' or Press 2"
|
| (Why I didn't get the Keyboard options first up, I've got no idea.)
|
| After I pressed 1 ... "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the
| bot hung up on me. No "IF" No "BUT" Just hung up on me, straight up!!
|
| Being determined to do the right thing, I rang back and was told,
| straight up "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the bot hung
| up on me AGAIN ..... so I then drive the 20-odd kilometers (12 mile,
| give or take) to go to the Government Services office and talk to a
human!!
It sounds like you may not be in the US,

Correct, I'm in Australia.

Post by Newyana2
but it works exactly
the same here. Sometimes repeatedly pressing 0 works to get
a person. Other times it doesn't.

'0' to get the operator .... I've had that option on some services ....
never thought of trying it straight up on other services!

[NY]

Post by Daniel65

Post by Newyana2
| Being determined to do the right thing, I rang back and was told,
| straight up "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!" and the bot hung
| up on me AGAIN ..... so I then drive the 20-odd kilometers (12 mile,
| give or take) to go to the Government Services office and talk to a
human!!
   It sounds like you may not be in the US,

Correct, I'm in Australia.

Post by Newyana2
but it works exactly
the same here. Sometimes repeatedly pressing 0 works to get
a person. Other times it doesn't.

'0' to get the operator .... I've had that option on some services ....
never thought of trying it straight up on other services!

In the UK, the Inland Revenue (equivalent of US IRS) is the worst I've
had for customer service. First you have to endure a three-minute
recorded message about how you could have done it online (no I couldn't:
I have questions that I need to ask a human being), before I could even
choose the department from a menu. Then none of the menus matched so I
chose the closest match. I was kept in a queue for 45 minutes, then I
got a message saying (I'm paraphrasing) "You have been in the queue too
long" and the call was terminated at their end.

I phoned back and got a human being after "only" 20 minutes, but it was
the wrong department ("Sorry, that's another department" and dumped into
the queue without even telling me which department/menu option I should
have chosen).

A lot of companies think that all their web site needs to do is to
answer various FAQs, and that they don't need to provide a way for me to
type a free-form email or web form so I can ask a question that is not
one of the FAQs.

[Daniel65]

Post by NY

Post by Daniel65

Post by Newyana2
| Being determined to do the right thing, I rang back and was
told, | straight up "Sorry, all the Operators are busy. BYE!!"
and the bot hung | up on me AGAIN ..... so I then drive the
20-odd kilometers (12 mile, | give or take) to go to the
Government Services office and talk to a human!!
It sounds like you may not be in the US,

Correct, I'm in Australia.

Post by Newyana2
but it works exactly the same here. Sometimes repeatedly pressing
0 works to get a person. Other times it doesn't.

'0' to get the operator .... I've had that option on some services
.... never thought of trying it straight up on other services!

In the UK, the Inland Revenue (equivalent of US IRS) is the worst
I've had for customer service. First you have to endure a
three-minute recorded message about how you could have done it online
(no I couldn't: I have questions that I need to ask a human being),
before I could even choose the department from a menu. Then none of
the menus matched so I chose the closest match. I was kept in a queue
for 45 minutes, then I got a message saying (I'm paraphrasing) "You
have been in the queue too long" and the call was terminated at their
end.
I phoned back and got a human being after "only" 20 minutes, but it
was the wrong department ("Sorry, that's another department" and
dumped into the queue without even telling me which department/menu
option I should have chosen).
A lot of companies think that all their web site needs to do is to
answer various FAQs, and that they don't need to provide a way for me
to type a free-form email or web form so I can ask a question that is
not one of the FAQs.

Yeap!! Yeap! Yeap.

[Paul]

Post by Ralph Fox

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ralph Fox
Google Groups seems to have stopped updating its newsgroup list
some years ago.

... because I don't think it has _ever_ updated its list: I think it has
the list that was in existence when it took over dejanews, which was
many years ago.

Nonsense.
There are newsgroups on Google groups which did not exist
back when Google took over dejanews in February 2001.
So obviously Google Groups _has_ made updates to its list
at some time.
* microsoft.public.windows.vista.security -- added to Google Groups in January 2007
<https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windows.vista.security>
* mozilla.support.firefox -- added to Google Groups in January 2006
<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.firefox>
* nz.tech -- newsgroup created February 2003
<https://groups.google.com/g/nz.tech>
* nz.soc.maori -- newsgroup created December 2002
<https://groups.google.com/g/nz.soc.maori>

The Google Groups policy has changed over time.

The policy today, is "standard server policy" as seen on the free servers.

1) Big 8 signed newgroup() messages are honored.

2) Control messages in alt.* are "almost turned off".
A signed message into whatever passes for control,
for an alt.* group would work, but who would it
have to be signed by ? Alt groups do not go through
the Request For Commends and Vote procedures, like
a prospective Big-8 group would. Control was switched off
in alt.* because randos were creating vanity groups.

The spool from Dejanews wasn't the only archival content.
There may have been some other historical collections
added (just a group or two kind of thing). This is
why, you might see a "date gap" in a group, which is
the difference between a historical collection, then
the gap, then the Dejanews collection. If you see posts
that were added, that were "close to the beginning of time",
those probably aren't Dejanews.

I don't know the history of "comp.mobile.android",
but since that is in the Big-8 hierarchy, it would
have gone through a Request For Comments, followed
by a Vote. And then someone on the Big-8 board, would
have sent out a signed newgroup() for it.

It might sit in a queue in the server, until an
administrator approved it and it moved into the spool.
it might also need to be hooked up from a peering
perspective. Since Google does not have a lot of humans,
it's hard to say how the poor server managed that on its own :-)
Based on the amount of Drug Spam coming from Google,
the human at Google must be of small stature, and unable
to reach the keyboard.

Paul

[Paul]

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.

That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.

The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.

But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.

slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"

Cloning a partition, would copy that number.

Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.

What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.

You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.

Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.

I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.

Paul

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.
That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.
The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.
slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"
Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.
You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.
Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.
I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

[Paul]

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.
That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.
The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.
slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"
Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.
You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.
Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.
I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.

Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.

If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.

If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
once you apply an MSA account to the thing.

It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
available as icons on the lower left.

net user administrator /active:yes

Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
it runs with administrator privilege.

But then the question would be, what could we do about an
MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.

Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
session as the Administrator.

But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
enough, that the path is blocked.

An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.

https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/

Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.

Paul

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <ue0b4u$2tt34$***@dont-email.me> at Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:14:04,
Paul <***@needed.invalid> writes
[]

Post by Paul
Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.
Paul

I'm pretty certain the OP has bought a couple of "used" machines, rather
than "refurbished".

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.
That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.
The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.
slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"
Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.
You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.
Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.
I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
available as icons on the lower left.
net user administrator /active:yes
Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
it runs with administrator privilege.
But then the question would be, what could we do about an
MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
session as the Administrator.
But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
enough, that the path is blocked.
An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.
Paul

I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.

Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

[Java Jive]

Post by g***@aol.com
I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.

Have you tried the tweaks in my reply to VanguardLH elsewhere in the
thread? You have to enable versions 1.1 & 1.2 of the TLS protocol for
it to work. I went through this rigmarole a couple of months ago, and,
although such is my sodding ageing memory that I can't remember any
details now, I must have got it to work somehow, because I have the ISOs
to prove it.

Post by g***@aol.com
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.

If you want to try to run it in the PXE environment, by all means give
it a go and report back here, but be aware there is no WoW support, so
you must run the right version for your PXE environment - 32-bit
version in a 32-bit PXE, similarly for 64-bit.

Post by g***@aol.com
Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Java Jive

Post by g***@aol.com
I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.

Have you tried the tweaks in my reply to VanguardLH elsewhere in the
thread? You have to enable versions 1.1 & 1.2 of the TLS protocol for
it to work. I went through this rigmarole a couple of months ago, and,
although such is my sodding ageing memory that I can't remember any
details now, I must have got it to work somehow, because I have the ISOs
to prove it.

Post by g***@aol.com
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.

If you want to try to run it in the PXE environment, by all means give
it a go and report back here, but be aware there is no WoW support, so
you must run the right version for your PXE environment - 32-bit
version in a 32-bit PXE, similarly for 64-bit.

Post by g***@aol.com
Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

I put the working machine back together with a D: and it is letting me
download the ISO from MS without any drama. I will burn it when I get
it over to my 7 machine with the optical drive and see what I can do.
If this will just let me overwrite the old one on the locked out
machine, I will be happy.
I would really like 7 on this other machine but with no USB 2 ports it
is that same dog and pony show I had to go through with the mini. I
still would need to find the drivers too. I would end up selecting
them by chip set from other machines since HP never assembled a set
for this one that I can find.
You say the key is in BIOS somewhere? Where is it?

[Java Jive]

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Java Jive

Post by g***@aol.com
I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.

Have you tried the tweaks in my reply to VanguardLH elsewhere in the
thread? You have to enable versions 1.1 & 1.2 of the TLS protocol for
it to work. I went through this rigmarole a couple of months ago, and,
although such is my sodding ageing memory that I can't remember any
details now, I must have got it to work somehow, because I have the ISOs
to prove it.

Post by g***@aol.com
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.

If you want to try to run it in the PXE environment, by all means give
it a go and report back here, but be aware there is no WoW support, so
you must run the right version for your PXE environment - 32-bit
version in a 32-bit PXE, similarly for 64-bit.

Post by g***@aol.com
Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

???

Post by g***@aol.com
I put the working machine back together with a D: and it is letting me
download the ISO from MS without any drama. I will burn it when I get
it over to my 7 machine with the optical drive and see what I can do.
If this will just let me overwrite the old one on the locked out
machine, I will be happy.

But you would have authentication problems.

Post by g***@aol.com
I would really like 7 on this other machine but with no USB 2 ports it
is that same dog and pony show I had to go through with the mini. I
still would need to find the drivers too. I would end up selecting
them by chip set from other machines since HP never assembled a set
for this one that I can find.

No USB at all? Or just no USB-A, which is what I suspect you really
mean when you say no USB-2 (AIUI, the former refers to the type of
connector, the latter to the protocols supported)? Are you saying that
it has only USB-C ports? It's true that I'm getting a little out of
touch since the days when I used to create the Windows builds for all
the UK PCs in an international financial services firm, but I've not
heard of a PC with no USB ports at all, and I can't find in the thread
anywhere where you have stated the actual model of the PC, only that
it's HP.

Post by g***@aol.com
You say the key is in BIOS somewhere? Where is it?

Depending on the manufacturer, quite possibly not where you can read it
by going into the BIOS on boot, but Paul would probably be better placed
to answer that than I. However, if you can get the Nirsoft Product Key
Scanner to work, that found it for me.

Certainly, on this Dell Inspiron 15RSE 7520, I can't see my W8 product
key when I press <F2> on boot to go into the BIOS; besides the normal
BIOS content that you would expect, there is only the Dell service tag
ID, which, on older models than this, is also on a label on the
underside of the PC. Perhaps HP have a similar thing, and you might be
able to query them for the Windows Product Key originally supplied with
their service tag? If it's as recent as the W7 era, you can then use
that, and upgrade it to Windows 10 for free?

As I see it, you have a number of options:

1) Badger the original user a little harder to try and get the PIN.
They might very understandably not wish to reveal their PIN to an
unknown schmuck, but if they're local to you and either you took the
laptop to them or you could arrange to meet on neutral ground such as a
cafe, and let them unlock it, you could then remove the PIN while
they're still present, check that you can get into it after a reboot,
thank them suitably for their trouble and time, perhaps buy them a
coffee, and henceforth all would be fine.

2) I've checked that the Nirsoft Product Key Scanner will indeed run in
the PXE environment, remembering that you *MUST* use the 32-bit version
in a 32-bit PXE, and similarly for 64-bit. While or after creating your
installation media, copy the appropriate version across to the media,
boot from it, choose the R option for 'Repair', and then go into a
command prompt to run it. However, because the system isn't 'running'
when you're in the PXE, you have give it the path to the Software
registry hive of the system, which in my case is:
C:\Windows\System32\config\SOFTWARE

3) As you say that the PC has not been 'refurbished' or reinstalled
before selling on as used, it seems to me possible that, despite Paul's
doubts, the On-Screen Keyboard (OSK) hack that I linked to a video of
may actually work. Surely at least it's got to be worth a try? Don't
forget afterwards to replace the osk.exe file with the original, though.

4) Accept the loss of the Windows Product Key and any other similarly
copyright-protected software, and reinstall, if desired buying a new Win
10 Product Key.

[Paul]

Depending on the manufacturer, quite possibly not where you can read it by going into the BIOS on boot, but Paul would probably be better placed to answer that than I.  However, if you can get the Nirsoft Product Key Scanner to work, that found it for me.

The ACPI MSDM is in the ACPI table.
You can dump that from Linux if you want. Using a LiveDVD.

The ACPI table, does not have a representation in the
BIOS window itself.

When a PC shuts down, the ACPI table has an "object" called
the Power Button. And it is via the Power Button object,
that the OS asks the machine to shut down. When I booted
a machine with a Linux DVD and entered "noacpi" as a boot-time
option, at the end of the session... the computer could not
shut down :-) Because, of course, with ACPI subsystem disabled,
it could not have a Power Button to use. ACPI Objects get around
the "direct access to hardware" problem. You don't need "giveio.sys"
to operate a Power Button. You don't need a special driver to
punch a hole in the security.

3)  As you say that the PC has not been 'refurbished' or reinstalled before selling on as used, it seems to me possible that, despite Paul's doubts, the On-Screen Keyboard (OSK) hack that I linked to a video of may actually work.  Surely at least it's got to be worth a try?  Don't forget afterwards to replace the osk.exe file with the original, though.

There was a summary web page (a home user page), listing the known hacks.
At the time I visited the site, the OSK.exe had been struck off
and no longer available, and there was one hack left. (The remaining hack
is a different kind of hack, and not an EXE substitution hack.)
Now, if Microsoft finds that page, then there will be zero hacks left :-)

The OP can shop here. This is not the page I was using before,
and it's missing the non-EXE flavored ones.

https://www.trustedsec.com/blog/playing-with-old-hacks/

Paul

[g***@aol.com]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 18:09:01 +0100, Java Jive <***@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
.

Post by Java Jive

Post by g***@aol.com
I would really like 7 on this other machine but with no USB 2 ports it
is that same dog and pony show I had to go through with the mini. I
still would need to find the drivers too. I would end up selecting
them by chip set from other machines since HP never assembled a set
for this one that I can find.

No USB at all? Or just no USB-A, which is what I suspect you really
mean when you say no USB-2 (AIUI, the former refers to the type of
connector, the latter to the protocols supported)? Are you saying that
it has only USB-C ports? It's true that I'm getting a little out of
touch since the days when I used to create the Windows builds for all
the UK PCs in an international financial services firm, but I've not
heard of a PC with no USB ports at all, and I can't find in the thread
anywhere where you have stated the actual model of the PC, only that
it's HP.

The mini I loaded only had USB 3.0 ports, no USB 2.0 (speed of the
port, they both use the A connector) A W/7 disk does not have a USB 3
driver. There were some gyrations to slip a USB 3 driver into the ISO
and create a stick to load it. I can't find that stick, but I haven't
really looked that hard.
I got a fresh load of 11 on the locked out machine after some hoops to
jump through.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Java Jive
Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
Here are the first five prices I found:

$16.99
$24.99
$15.99
$16.99
$8.99

All the others I saw were also under $30.

[Java Jive]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Java Jive
Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
$16.99
$24.99
$15.99
$16.99
$8.99
All the others I saw were also under $30.

Not here in the UK to fit the particular PC:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/360454675349 about £91 inc P&P from Germany
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295207189809 2 x £46.79
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Komputerbay-PC2-6400-DDR2-800-SoDIMM-Channel/dp/B003D18Q7W
£92.07

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Java Jive
Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
$16.99
$24.99
$15.99
$16.99
$8.99
All the others I saw were also under $30.

The $30 was 16g (top of the box here) but I am not sure it would work
since HP says you use 2 8g to get to 16. Sorry for any confusion. Mi
mind is mush at this point ;)

[Paul]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Java Jive
Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
$16.99
$24.99
$15.99
$16.99
$8.99
All the others I saw were also under $30.

Each RAM type has a different price, and
a different reason for price movement.

That's why you cannot "just ask for 8GB" and
have the returned results make sense. Each of these
will have a different story.

PC133
DDR400
DDR2-800
DDR3-1066
DDR4-3200
DDR5-5600

DRAM controllers have limited Address bits.
If you use a too-large DIMM, Intel or AMD may not
have planned for such an animal, and only half the
DIMM can be addressed. That's why some of the "big"
DIMMs, you might get a surprise when you buy them and
the motherboard doesn't like what you bought.

As far as the transfer speed goes, we can use PC133
as an example. Theoretical is 8*133 = 1066MB/sec. Well,
the measured transfer rate was only 300MB/sec. Many SSDs
are faster than that. And that is the RAM we were using
around the year 2001.

The memtest screen can tell you, how "smoking fast"
your fancy RAM is. It has the ability to measure the transfer rate.
The Stream benchmark should be able to do that too, but I like
memtest for this. Memtest flushes the cache, before doing the
test.

Paul

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Paul

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Java Jive
Good grief, where can you get 8GB RAM for $30???!!! Here in the UK, I
can't find an upgrade for one of my PCs much cheaper than about £55-60!

Out of curiosity, I just went to Amazon.com and searched on 8GB RAM.
$16.99
$24.99
$15.99
$16.99
$8.99
All the others I saw were also under $30.

Each RAM type has a different price, and
a different reason for price movement.
That's why you cannot "just ask for 8GB" and
have the returned results make sense. Each of these
will have a different story.
PC133
DDR400
DDR2-800
DDR3-1066
DDR4-3200
DDR5-5600
DRAM controllers have limited Address bits.
If you use a too-large DIMM, Intel or AMD may not
have planned for such an animal, and only half the
DIMM can be addressed. That's why some of the "big"
DIMMs, you might get a surprise when you buy them and
the motherboard doesn't like what you bought.
As far as the transfer speed goes, we can use PC133
as an example. Theoretical is 8*133 = 1066MB/sec. Well,
the measured transfer rate was only 300MB/sec. Many SSDs
are faster than that. And that is the RAM we were using
around the year 2001.
The memtest screen can tell you, how "smoking fast"
your fancy RAM is. It has the ability to measure the transfer rate.
The Stream benchmark should be able to do that too, but I like
memtest for this. Memtest flushes the cache, before doing the
test.
Paul

Yup I figured out a long time ago, you need to buy a RAM stick that
was tested in your machine type and listed on the MFG specs. Even then
I have had trouble if it was a different version of the same part from
the same company.

[Paul]

Post by g***@aol.com
Yup I figured out a long time ago, you need to buy a RAM stick that
was tested in your machine type and listed on the MFG specs. Even then
I have had trouble if it was a different version of the same part from
the same company.

Yes, even though Kingston has "datasheets" which show a
drawing of a DIMM and a certain memory chip on it, they
were shipping two versions of DIMM, with high density
chips on one (single sided DIMM) versus the spec sheet
which called for low density (double sided DIMM). The
low density DIMM was the working DIMM, needing one less
address bit.

Kingston did not make these. They're made by a third party
and a Kingston label slapped on them.

Crucial wouldn't do that. They have a pretty good record on
making a good version for purpose. Normally Micron chips
ship on their DIMMs (they are a subsidiary of Micron), but
when the Micron chips sucked, they put Samsung chips on
some DIMMs for a few years. I had a Crucial Ballistix, where
one chip blew out and went tristate (flapped in the breeze).
The scrolling in Memtest was just crazy :-)

Paul

[Paul]

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.
That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.
The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.
slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"
Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.
You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.
Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.
I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
available as icons on the lower left.
net user administrator /active:yes
Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
it runs with administrator privilege.
But then the question would be, what could we do about an
MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
session as the Administrator.
But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
enough, that the path is blocked.
An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.
Paul

I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

You can't download this on a Win10 machine which is running Windows Defender,
as it will be quarantined and declared "HackerWare", whatever that means.
It's possible a Win7 machine might download it. But once you have it,
if a "live Win10" gets a whiff, Windows Defender will be "at it". Using
a Windows installer DVD, and the Command Prompt window, might be a bit "safer".
I do not know if MagicJellyBean or Belarc Advisor receive this treatment from
Microsoft or not. The disclaimers of capability, don't look so good (I'm
not sure this will give a complete picture of your laptop).

https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_cd_key_viewer.html

"ProduKey is a small utility that displays the ProductID and the CD-Key of

Microsoft Office (Microsoft Office 2003, Microsoft Office 2007)
Windows (Including Windows 8/7/Vista)
Exchange Server
SQL Server

installed on your computer. You can view this information for your
current running operating system, or for another operating system/computer,
by using command-line options.

This utility can be useful if you lost the product key of your Windows/Office,
and you want to reinstall it on your computer.

ProduKey works on all versions of Windows. Both 32-bit and 64-bit systems are
supported. However, some features, like viewing the product keys of
another operating system instance, are only supported on Windows 2000/XP/2003/2008/Vista/7/8.
"

It's hard to tell whether it knows about ACPI MSDM or not, as MSDM started in Win8 era.
MSDM is used, for the OS that shipped on the laptop.

Keys like:

VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) <--- X79
YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) <--- laptop!
BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)

are place-holders when doing the Free Upgrade. The 3V66T one for example,
cannot be used in a reinstall. The presence of that one, means the
machine is registered with Microsoft, and a second attempt to install
Windows 10 will "just work". slmgr /dlv will reveal such an install
is automatically activated (should have activated status within a reboot
or two).

It's when a person buys a Win10 with Key, and installs the Key (say, while
the network cable is disconnected), that a "real key" value would show
in ProduKey. But in such cases, the key is still registered with Microsoft.

Sometimes, presentation of a "key", is to correct for confusion on the
Microsoft end. A user could buy a Win10 Home laptop (MSDM) and it would activate,
then install Win10 Pro (Key). Later, when they want to reinstall, using the Key
value might help with a reinstall of the Pro one. Otherwise, sometime weird might
happen when it considers the Home credentials.

The state diagram for what could happen, is of a fair size :-) Generally
you get the correct outcome, but... it's Microsoft.

This will list a few more tools.

https://alternativeto.net/software/produkey/

This might be the feature set I was thinking of.

https://alternativeto.net/software/showkeyplus/about/

The OP might have a sufficient fleet, to have a "good candidate"
for testing such tools (a machine with a Win10 MSDM, plus a purchased
Win10 Pro installed over top of the original Win10 Home, presenting
two key values for showkeyplus to print out.

I do so little key munging, there's hardly a reason to "keep a collection
and keep-em honed". My test cases here, just aren't good enough to
certify a tool for the hard cases.

*******

A 32-bit WinPE, can sometimes run 32-bit utilities. I have used a Macrium 32-bit
CD, to run something like HDTune. Not all utilities will run that way. Only some
of them. Originally, the WinPE might have not supported anything like that. I use
the 32-bit CD, because I've noticed more things work with 32-bit software,
than with 64-bit environments. That's why I have a 32-bit CD in the CD stack,
just for this purpose (potential of technician runtime environment). Maybe I
would test and see if a ShowKeyPlus could run from there. Most of the Macrium
CDs in the stack, are 64-bit ones.

Paul

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.
That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.
The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.
slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"
Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.
You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.
Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.
I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
available as icons on the lower left.
net user administrator /active:yes
Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
it runs with administrator privilege.
But then the question would be, what could we do about an
MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
session as the Administrator.
But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
enough, that the path is blocked.
An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.
Paul

I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

You can't download this on a Win10 machine which is running Windows Defender,
as it will be quarantined and declared "HackerWare", whatever that means.
It's possible a Win7 machine might download it. But once you have it,
if a "live Win10" gets a whiff, Windows Defender will be "at it". Using
a Windows installer DVD, and the Command Prompt window, might be a bit "safer".
I do not know if MagicJellyBean or Belarc Advisor receive this treatment from
Microsoft or not. The disclaimers of capability, don't look so good (I'm
not sure this will give a complete picture of your laptop).
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_cd_key_viewer.html
"ProduKey is a small utility that displays the ProductID and the CD-Key of
Microsoft Office (Microsoft Office 2003, Microsoft Office 2007)
Windows (Including Windows 8/7/Vista)
Exchange Server
SQL Server
installed on your computer. You can view this information for your
current running operating system, or for another operating system/computer,
by using command-line options.
This utility can be useful if you lost the product key of your Windows/Office,
and you want to reinstall it on your computer.
ProduKey works on all versions of Windows. Both 32-bit and 64-bit systems are
supported. However, some features, like viewing the product keys of
another operating system instance, are only supported on Windows 2000/XP/2003/2008/Vista/7/8.
"
It's hard to tell whether it knows about ACPI MSDM or not, as MSDM started in Win8 era.
MSDM is used, for the OS that shipped on the laptop.
VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) <--- X79
YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) <--- laptop!
BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)
are place-holders when doing the Free Upgrade. The 3V66T one for example,
cannot be used in a reinstall. The presence of that one, means the
machine is registered with Microsoft, and a second attempt to install
Windows 10 will "just work". slmgr /dlv will reveal such an install
is automatically activated (should have activated status within a reboot
or two).
It's when a person buys a Win10 with Key, and installs the Key (say, while
the network cable is disconnected), that a "real key" value would show
in ProduKey. But in such cases, the key is still registered with Microsoft.
Sometimes, presentation of a "key", is to correct for confusion on the
Microsoft end. A user could buy a Win10 Home laptop (MSDM) and it would activate,
then install Win10 Pro (Key). Later, when they want to reinstall, using the Key
value might help with a reinstall of the Pro one. Otherwise, sometime weird might
happen when it considers the Home credentials.
The state diagram for what could happen, is of a fair size :-) Generally
you get the correct outcome, but... it's Microsoft.
This will list a few more tools.
https://alternativeto.net/software/produkey/
This might be the feature set I was thinking of.
https://alternativeto.net/software/showkeyplus/about/
The OP might have a sufficient fleet, to have a "good candidate"
for testing such tools (a machine with a Win10 MSDM, plus a purchased
Win10 Pro installed over top of the original Win10 Home, presenting
two key values for showkeyplus to print out.
I do so little key munging, there's hardly a reason to "keep a collection
and keep-em honed". My test cases here, just aren't good enough to
certify a tool for the hard cases.
*******
A 32-bit WinPE, can sometimes run 32-bit utilities. I have used a Macrium 32-bit
CD, to run something like HDTune. Not all utilities will run that way. Only some
of them. Originally, the WinPE might have not supported anything like that. I use
the 32-bit CD, because I've noticed more things work with 32-bit software,
than with 64-bit environments. That's why I have a 32-bit CD in the CD stack,
just for this purpose (potential of technician runtime environment). Maybe I
would test and see if a ShowKeyPlus could run from there. Most of the Macrium
CDs in the stack, are 64-bit ones.
Paul

It is really looking like these are W/11 64 bit home machines. I am
not sure why there were so many references to 10 when I was looking
around. At any rate I have the ISO and I will be burning the disk
tonight.

Thanks for all the help.

[Sjouke Burry]

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Paul

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

I would do a Clean Install.
That way, the install serial number will be different
on the two machines.
The hardware serial number, is, at a minimum, the MAC address of the NIC.
But when you insert the DVD and do an install, a random
number is assigned as the software install serial number.
slmgr /dlv # dump particulars about installation
# "Installation ID"
Cloning a partition, would copy that number.
Now, I tested this, using the Insider Edition :-)
I installed, associated my MSA. Cloned the partition and
made a second C: drive on the same hard drive.
What I noticed, is any time the second OS did something
involving authentication, some "token" seemed to get
canceled, and I would be entering the password or pin,
more often as a result. I did this test case on purpose,
so that Microsoft telemetry would realize such a scenario
could arise (cloned C: ), and they should be ready for it.
Having identical install numbers, on identical DiskID numbers
or disk serial numbers, is a pretty unique situation, and
is the most pathological test case I could think of.
You can do what you like (whatever the software will allow),
but my personal preference would be a clean install.
Machines with a PIN still in place, could be stolen, but
I would guess you've thought of that. But users are clueless
enough, I can well imagine most people sell off machines
without de-authorizing them and taking the machine off the
"device list" against that MSA account.
I would be more concerned, if the machine was BIOS locked,
as an idiot user should be more aware of the need to
remove the password there. Some business machines, keep
the BIOS password in an eight pin serial EEPROM, and
removing the BIOS CR2032 battery, will not reset the
BIOS password for a business machine. And erasing the
EEPROM isn't enough either. A "pattern" goes in there,
even when it is "empty". If it's all zeros, the BIOS
may not start properly (as a "theft prevention move").
The manufacturer recommends "factory reset" in cases like
that. But I don't know if anyone has ever tested that method.
The "pattern" would be some sort of crypto.
Paul

Thanks Paul. It is what I expected. Since there is no key sticker on
this machine I am probably buying another W/10.
I may go another way. Since this came from a local company, I might
see if the last owner will give me the PIN.

When a machine is refurbished, a new key is cut which is
unique to the Win Refurbisher media. That key is supposed
to work, if you need to reinstall the OS.
Now, one problem with the Microsoft scheme for refurbishment,
is there is no new COA to be glued to the machine.
If the machine had received Windows 7 Refurbisher (like my
Optiplex 780 has on it), then the new key would be sitting
in the Registry. And using something like the MagicJellyBean
or the (Microsoft-hated) ProduKey, you may be able to dig that
up while the disk drive is slaved to your technician machine.
It's been a while since I've used Produkey, and I'd have to
use it on my Win7 machine (where Microsoft won't reach out and
trash ProduKey for me). One of the bean extractors, has the ability
to do more than the average one of them. Something like Belarc Advisor,
likely sticks to the boot drive for extractions of info.
If Windows 10 Refurbisher was installed (what a buyer would expect
in the late part of the year 2023), then the key is already now
registered with Microsoft. If Windows 10 is reinstalled (Refurbisher
version of not), then the OS should activate using the key recorded
on the Microsoft server (if the version was Pro, you'd reinstall Pro).
Now, presumably, the association with the previous owner would be broken,
once you apply an MSA account to the thing.
It is possible no other account was set up on the machine.
The Administrator account, does not have to be turned on,
so you cannot log in as the "Real Admin" unless the account
was on. If additional accounts were defined, they would be
available as icons on the lower left.
net user administrator /active:yes
Windows 10 used to be hack-able, by using the OSK.exe executable
and replacing it with CMD.exe . Then, you would attempt to use
the OSK at login time, this caused CMD.exe to pop up, and...
it runs with administrator privilege.
But then the question would be, what could we do about an
MSA, armed with such a tool ? My guess would be... not much.
Perhaps you could create a new local account, from that window.
and then log in from it. Or, maybe you could just turn on
Administrator, and when Administrator is listed on the
side of the screen, log in with that and do a whole
session as the Administrator.
But this assumes the hack works, and the OSK.exe one was closed
by Microsoft, and your machine is undoubtedly patched up far
enough, that the path is blocked.
An example of the idea, is presented here. But as time passes,
older attempts like this get blocked, so it remains to be seen
whether this still works. You could reset a local account with
tricks like this, and if you turn on the Real Admin, then an
extra icon presumably will show up on the left, at login.
https://4sysops.com/archives/reset-windows-10-password-by-disabling-windows-defender/
Once you boot in Non-Safe-Mode, I would expect Windows Defender
will remove any sort of hack of that class. (At least for Windows 10
it would. Probably not for Windows 7, but I really doubt you got
Windows 7 on those machines. That's against the T&C of the Refurbisher
product, that the installer-person has purchased.
Paul

I tracked down the owner and talked to him on the phone. There was no
refurb, they just sold them as is. These machines were used for a Jet
Ski and Beach Chair rental operation and he said there wasn't any data
there he cared about. The business is closed because of Hurricane Ian
a year ago. He gave me a PIN to try but it didn't work. He said he
might be able to track down the employee who had the machine but it
didn't sound like he was going to try very hard. I think I am going to
go with getting the disk ISO from MS and trying to reload it. I will
use the working W/10 machine since MS doesn't seem to support W/7 for
the media creation tool download.
Is it likely that the disk will pick up the key on a reload from
existing or should I go with that key retrieval program before I
start. I assume I can use it from the boot off the MS disk.
Right now the working machine is opened up on the bench waiting for a
disk drive cradle and cable to get a little extra breathing room.
C: is a 128g SSD and more than half full. There is a 2.5" drive slot
tho.
It had 4g RAM with an empty slot. I may throw another 8G at it for $30
but it seems OK now.

You can't download this on a Win10 machine which is running Windows Defender,
as it will be quarantined and declared "HackerWare", whatever that means.
It's possible a Win7 machine might download it. But once you have it,
if a "live Win10" gets a whiff, Windows Defender will be "at it". Using
a Windows installer DVD, and the Command Prompt window, might be a bit "safer".
I do not know if MagicJellyBean or Belarc Advisor receive this treatment from
Microsoft or not. The disclaimers of capability, don't look so good (I'm
not sure this will give a complete picture of your laptop).
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_cd_key_viewer.html
"ProduKey is a small utility that displays the ProductID and the CD-Key of
Microsoft Office (Microsoft Office 2003, Microsoft Office 2007)
Windows (Including Windows 8/7/Vista)
Exchange Server
SQL Server
installed on your computer. You can view this information for your
current running operating system, or for another operating system/computer,
by using command-line options.
This utility can be useful if you lost the product key of your Windows/Office,
and you want to reinstall it on your computer.
ProduKey works on all versions of Windows. Both 32-bit and 64-bit systems are
supported. However, some features, like viewing the product keys of
another operating system instance, are only supported on Windows 2000/XP/2003/2008/Vista/7/8.
"
It's hard to tell whether it knows about ACPI MSDM or not, as MSDM started in Win8 era.
MSDM is used, for the OS that shipped on the laptop.
VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) <--- X79
YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) <--- laptop!
BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)
are place-holders when doing the Free Upgrade. The 3V66T one for example,
cannot be used in a reinstall. The presence of that one, means the
machine is registered with Microsoft, and a second attempt to install
Windows 10 will "just work". slmgr /dlv will reveal such an install
is automatically activated (should have activated status within a reboot
or two).
It's when a person buys a Win10 with Key, and installs the Key (say, while
the network cable is disconnected), that a "real key" value would show
in ProduKey. But in such cases, the key is still registered with Microsoft.
Sometimes, presentation of a "key", is to correct for confusion on the
Microsoft end. A user could buy a Win10 Home laptop (MSDM) and it would activate,
then install Win10 Pro (Key). Later, when they want to reinstall, using the Key
value might help with a reinstall of the Pro one. Otherwise, sometime weird might
happen when it considers the Home credentials.
The state diagram for what could happen, is of a fair size :-) Generally
you get the correct outcome, but... it's Microsoft.
This will list a few more tools.
https://alternativeto.net/software/produkey/
This might be the feature set I was thinking of.
https://alternativeto.net/software/showkeyplus/about/
The OP might have a sufficient fleet, to have a "good candidate"
for testing such tools (a machine with a Win10 MSDM, plus a purchased
Win10 Pro installed over top of the original Win10 Home, presenting
two key values for showkeyplus to print out.
I do so little key munging, there's hardly a reason to "keep a collection
and keep-em honed". My test cases here, just aren't good enough to
certify a tool for the hard cases.
*******
A 32-bit WinPE, can sometimes run 32-bit utilities. I have used a Macrium 32-bit
CD, to run something like HDTune. Not all utilities will run that way. Only some
of them. Originally, the WinPE might have not supported anything like that. I use
the 32-bit CD, because I've noticed more things work with 32-bit software,
than with 64-bit environments. That's why I have a 32-bit CD in the CD stack,
just for this purpose (potential of technician runtime environment). Maybe I
would test and see if a ShowKeyPlus could run from there. Most of the Macrium
CDs in the stack, are 64-bit ones.
Paul

Thanks.. (XP PRO) worked nicely.

[Ken Blake]

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.

If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.
If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher (including a
small shop), (s)he may well have done that, so - unless you have some
evidence that they're untrustworthy - you'd just be duplicating. (Plus
they may have had the necessary drivers, updates, etcetera.)

Though gfretwell's statement that he doesn't have the PIN suggests it
was a more informal arrangement, and your advice is sound. Though in
practice I wonder what proportion of such second-hand machines actually
_do_ have problems - malware, or just some broken configuration - that
it would fix.

You should check your tyre pressures (and your tyre condition) once a
[insert interval of choice here]. But how many of us do ...

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:32:38 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.
If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher (including a
small shop), (s)he may well have done that, so - unless you have some
evidence that they're untrustworthy - you'd just be duplicating. (Plus
they may have had the necessary drivers, updates, etcetera.)

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a matter of being trustworthy. Even
if it was already done, not everyone does it correctly, and the most
prudent course is to do it yourself. And even if the previous owner
was a close relative or friend, they could be infected without
realizing it.

Are there some situations when reinstalling cleanly isn't necessary?
Yes, of course. But you can never know for sure, and in my opinion
it's better to be safe than sorry.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Though gfretwell's statement that he doesn't have the PIN suggests it
was a more informal arrangement, and your advice is sound. Though in
practice I wonder what proportion of such second-hand machines actually
_do_ have problems - malware, or just some broken configuration - that
it would fix.

Again, not all. Yes, it's not always necessary. But in my opinion,
it's not worth taking a risk and not reinstalling cleanly.

Note that I said "playing with fire," not "you will certainly get
burnt."

Post by J. P. Gilliver
You should check your tyre pressures (and your tyre condition) once a
[insert interval of choice here]. But how many of us do ...

My car does it automatically. That's a feature I like a lot. But even
if it didn't, that's a very different situation. Doing something like
that periodically requires remembering to do it. Reinstalling Windows
cleanly on a used computer is something that needs to be done once,
immediately when you first get it.

[Java Jive]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?

I haven't tried to do this, but it may help. You need an installation
media such as a DVD or USB-Stick:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=how+change+forgotten+password+of+Administrator+account+in+Win10&docid=603522125798397830&mid=1C754D6C196DD9545FC71C754D6C196DD9545FC7&view=detail&FORM=VDRVRV&ajaxhist=0

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.

Yes, there will be. You need to get in to read the Product Activation
Key before you overwrite or reinstall. If you simply overwrite, the two
systems will have not just the same activation keys, which will give you
activation problems, but also the same security keys, which may give you
further problems, though these days I'm not entirely sure what, as in
the past this was considered more of a potential source of problems than
recently it seems to be. You can use this software to read the
Activation Key:
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_key_scanner.html

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake
If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.
If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Yes, in the vast majority of cases. An exception might be ...

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher (including a
small shop), (s)he may well have done that, so - unless you have some
evidence that they're untrustworthy - you'd just be duplicating. (Plus
they may have had the necessary drivers, updates, etcetera.)

Yes, that last point is valid if you don't have all the software or
driver reinstallation media, but then at least you should run a scan
with more than one anti-malware program.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Java Jive
You can use this software to read the
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_key_scanner.html

That looks interesting and I suppose it will work OK with the one I am
into but the one I can't get into poses the same problem. I wonder if
it will run from the OS on the Achronis disk?

[Java Jive]

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Java Jive
You can use this software to read the
https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/product_key_scanner.html

That looks interesting and I suppose it will work OK with the one I am
into but the one I can't get into poses the same problem. I wonder if
it will run from the OS on the Achronis disk?

It may work in what is known as the Pre-Execution Environment (acronym
PXE I think) that the setup programs run on, but I don't know because I
haven't tried that. However, if it doesn't, you can still try following
the fairly simple instructions in the video I linked to get into the PC
so you can run Product Key Scanner there.

I've used both 32/64-bit versions to save the product keys on all my PC
builds from 32-bit XP down to 64-bit Win 7/10, so that if necessary I
can rebuild any PC from scratch without losing the ability to
authenticate anything.

Also, if I buy a used PC with a build on it, extracting and saving a
copy of the product keys is one of the very first things I do.

[Paul]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.
If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher

If you got it from Joy Systems, it would be clean as a whistle.

If you got it from the shop downtown, where "a guy is doing the
refurbs in the shop", that machine arrived with malware on it.
A Chinese movie player application, was detected as malware.
The Chinese movie player had been used to play content on
the machine, while it sat in the shop window. So the "guy"
does the W7 Refurb DVD install, then adds infected movie player
so it can play something while it sat in the window. I scanned
it at the time, with a Kaspersky CD for fun, to see what I could
detect.

One of the ways you can tell, is if the machine arrives in
OutOfBox state, and starts querying you for a new account
information and password. This implies the machine has not
been used, since its Clean Install.

If the machine starts up and a user account is already defined,
well as Ken Blake puts it, "you're playing with fire". Mine
started up with an account of "user" and was already set up.
That's when I got the Kaspersky CD out, for a look, and
there was just one hit.

Paul

[C***@TotallyInvalidated.org]

Post by Paul

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.
If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher

If you got it from Joy Systems, it would be clean as a whistle.
If you got it from the shop downtown, where "a guy is doing the
refurbs in the shop", that machine arrived with malware on it.
A Chinese movie player application, was detected as malware.
The Chinese movie player had been used to play content on
the machine, while it sat in the shop window. So the "guy"
does the W7 Refurb DVD install, then adds infected movie player
so it can play something while it sat in the window. I scanned
it at the time, with a Kaspersky CD for fun, to see what I could
detect.
One of the ways you can tell, is if the machine arrives in
OutOfBox state, and starts querying you for a new account
information and password. This implies the machine has not
been used, since its Clean Install.
If the machine starts up and a user account is already defined,
well as Ken Blake puts it, "you're playing with fire". Mine
started up with an account of "user" and was already set up.
That's when I got the Kaspersky CD out, for a look, and
there was just one hit.
Paul

Ya' know, after reading all this stuff about how it seems I still
don't own a computer after buying it - tnx, Redmond, I think I'll move
up and stay with Win 7 from my present XP which is beginning to be
denied access to too many sites these days.

I'm a year from 90, so I figure if XP lasted this long, Win 7 will
probably outlive me. I cannot believe this crap about Pin Numbers and
the rest of the nonsense I've read about 10-11 and how Redmond tries
to own you.

Gawd, It's incredible what has happened to the Internet since the days
of DOS and very early Windows.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by C***@TotallyInvalidated.org

Post by Paul

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Ken Blake

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

If you acquire a used computer, the very first thing you should do
with it is reinstall Windows cleanly. You should do that regardless of
who previously owned it.
If you don't do that, you're playing with fire.

Well, depends from where you got it; if from a refurbisher

If you got it from Joy Systems, it would be clean as a whistle.
If you got it from the shop downtown, where "a guy is doing the
refurbs in the shop", that machine arrived with malware on it.
A Chinese movie player application, was detected as malware.
The Chinese movie player had been used to play content on
the machine, while it sat in the shop window. So the "guy"
does the W7 Refurb DVD install, then adds infected movie player
so it can play something while it sat in the window. I scanned
it at the time, with a Kaspersky CD for fun, to see what I could
detect.
One of the ways you can tell, is if the machine arrives in
OutOfBox state, and starts querying you for a new account
information and password. This implies the machine has not
been used, since its Clean Install.
If the machine starts up and a user account is already defined,
well as Ken Blake puts it, "you're playing with fire". Mine
started up with an account of "user" and was already set up.
That's when I got the Kaspersky CD out, for a look, and
there was just one hit.
Paul

Ya' know, after reading all this stuff about how it seems I still
don't own a computer after buying it - tnx, Redmond, I think I'll move
up and stay with Win 7 from my present XP which is beginning to be
denied access to too many sites these days.
I'm a year from 90, so I figure if XP lasted this long, Win 7 will
probably outlive me. I cannot believe this crap about Pin Numbers and
the rest of the nonsense I've read about 10-11 and how Redmond tries
to own you.
Gawd, It's incredible what has happened to the Internet since the days
of DOS and very early Windows.

I'm with you brother. I still have a W/98 machine and an XP machine.
Everything else (about 8 of them) os W/7.
The PIN is pretty much like the log on password that has been around
for years tho. It does sound like Redmond is still serious about
authentification on 10 tho.
7 and XP are wide open. If you have a key that works, you are in, no
matter how many machines you use it on. They used to do a hardware
match but not now. I have 4 W/7 machines running on the same key but I
also have 2 shrink wrapped copies..

[VanguardLH]

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.

As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
but not the same as a fresh install.

Post by VanguardLH
The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.

Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
laptop.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
but not the same as a fresh install.

Post by VanguardLH
The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
laptop.

I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
they did do some cleanup tho.
If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.

[VanguardLH]

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
but not the same as a fresh install.

Post by VanguardLH
The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
laptop.

I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
they did do some cleanup tho.
If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.

You go to MS to get their Create Media wizard that creates the ISO for
you.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11

Windows 10 is a never-expiring trial. You can bypass entering the
product key during the setup, use the trial however long you want, and
add the product key later. Don't know about Win11.

As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work. Could be you
get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
your laptop that was pre-validated. Companies aren't going to waste
time going through the manual validation process.

[Java Jive]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
but not the same as a fresh install.

Post by VanguardLH
The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
laptop.

I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
they did do some cleanup tho.
If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.

You go to MS to get their Create Media wizard that creates the ISO for
you.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11

Depending on what machine is used to do the downloads, or rather what OS
is on the machine, he may have to do some registry tweaks or similar to
get the Media Creation Tool to work:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/media-creation-tool-error-code-0x80072f8f-0x20000/4f8bbe1c-b5af-4cc9-958e-c6c8f3f0b524
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/update-to-enable-tls-1-1-and-tls-1-2-as-default-secure-protocols-in-winhttp-in-windows-c4bd73d2-31d7-761e-0178-11268bb10392

Post by VanguardLH
Windows 10 is a never-expiring trial. You can bypass entering the
product key during the setup, use the trial however long you want, and
add the product key later. Don't know about Win11.
As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work. Could be you
get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
your laptop that was pre-validated. Companies aren't going to waste
time going through the manual validation process.

He has already mentioned and is still quoted above as saying that there
is no Product Key sticker.

[Paul]

Post by Java Jive

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it.  Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware?  If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).

  What you're describing, *used* to be the case, but - at least for my
'new' HP Windows 11 laptop - that's no longer the case. After initial
setup, there's no fresh-install copy on a hidden partition.
  As this is about a *used* laptop, the initial setup has been done and
the only thing which can be done is a 'Reset PC', which is similar to
but not the same as a fresh install.

Post by VanguardLH
The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible).  With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

  Same thing, no longer a product key sticker anywhere. BUT, AFAIK, you
don't need a product key to get the Windows 10/11 install images from
Microsoft (I didn't for the Windows 10 one(s)) and you don't need a
product key during the re-install, because the installation procedure
gets the key from the BIOS/<whatever>.
  Also note that using the Windows 10/11 install images from Microsoft,
the user will lose any other software which came bundled with the
laptop.

I will look into that. The only other software on the one I am into
was Skype, Netflix (part of the package from HP) and Office and it
looks like they deactivated Office, I didn't really screw with it but
I did get a pop up saying it was dead after X date, the same date that
was set on the machine. I am going to delete it anyway. It looks like
they did do some cleanup tho.
If I can get a fresh image from MS, I will do that.

You go to MS to get their Create Media wizard that creates the ISO for
you.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
https://www.microsoft.com/software-download/windows11

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/media-creation-tool-error-code-0x80072f8f-0x20000/4f8bbe1c-b5af-4cc9-958e-c6c8f3f0b524
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/update-to-enable-tls-1-1-and-tls-1-2-as-default-secure-protocols-in-winhttp-in-windows-c4bd73d2-31d7-761e-0178-11268bb10392

Post by VanguardLH
Windows 10 is a never-expiring trial.  You can bypass entering the
product key during the setup, use the trial however long you want, and
add the product key later.  Don't know about Win11.
As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work.  Could be you
get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
your laptop that was pre-validated.  Companies aren't going to waste
time going through the manual validation process.

He has already mentioned and is still quoted above as saying that there is no Product Key sticker.

And neither should there be, for a Refurbished PC.
The COA is supposed to be removed, as part of the T&C.
The Refurbisher Kit used to come with media (hologram DVD),
but they stopped doing that half way through the Win7 era,
and I doubt the Win10 kit has media either. My guy at the
computer store downtown, had a cabinet with maybe 30 W7r DVDs
in it, and as I made it clear I would not buy the machine
without a sampling of the Refurbisher media, he had no problem
including it (like he was supposed to). The Refurbisher media,
is very very close to a retail media. I didn't do checksums, but
a visual check of file trees, it looks to be pretty similar.

If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.

A used machine could be received in any condition, including
with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
grace period).

It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
and that is why the COA is "missing".

Paul

[Java Jive]

Post by Paul

Post by Java Jive

Post by VanguardLH
As mentioned, the product key on the sticker may not work.  Could be you
get a product key sticker from a sheet, and a sysprep image was put on
your laptop that was pre-validated.  Companies aren't going to waste
time going through the manual validation process.

He has already mentioned and is still quoted above as saying that there is no Product Key sticker.

And neither should there be, for a Refurbished PC.
The COA is supposed to be removed, as part of the T&C.
The Refurbisher Kit used to come with media (hologram DVD),
but they stopped doing that half way through the Win7 era,
and I doubt the Win10 kit has media either. My guy at the
computer store downtown, had a cabinet with maybe 30 W7r DVDs
in it, and as I made it clear I would not buy the machine
without a sampling of the Refurbisher media, he had no problem
including it (like he was supposed to). The Refurbisher media,
is very very close to a retail media. I didn't do checksums, but
a visual check of file trees, it looks to be pretty similar.
If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.
A used machine could be received in any condition, including
with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
grace period).
It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
and that is why the COA is "missing".

Thanks for the above background. Although your level of knowledge of
this is clearly more detailed than mine, I do know enough to say '+1' to
some of it.

For example, when I first bought this machine, it had Windows 8 on it,
but I was being driven mad by the idiotic 'charms' - a misnomer if
ever there was one - popping up in each corner, and insisted Dell
supply me with a Windows 7 installation disk, and I've used W7 ever
since (although currently it's 10 because I'm still experimenting with
that as detailed in another thread). When I used the Nirsoft Product
Key Scanner, I found the original W8 Product Key was still in the BIOS.

[Frank Slootweg]

Paul <***@needed.invalid> wrote:
[...]

Post by Paul
If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.

Many modern laptops, especially consumer-grade (which these ones a
probably *not* (but business ones)) do no longer have battery bays, but
have built-in, hard to remove/replace battery packs.

Post by Paul
A used machine could be received in any condition, including
with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
grace period).
It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
and that is why the COA is "missing".

Yes, I think this is the most likely scenario. (FWIW, my HP Windows 11
laptop is like that, key in the BIOS.)

I get the impression that the OP (***@aol.com) is willing to
wipe the PIN-unkown/can't_get_in laptop and install only Windows 10 or
11 (i.e. lose the third-party software which came with the laptop).

If that's the case, can't he just get the Windows 10 or 11 media on a
USB memory-stick (as per the procedure mentioned before) and boot and
install from that stick?

I.e. unless the BIOS *also* has a password, can't he just boot from
the stick and re-install Windows 10/11, never mind the unknown PIN?

[Paul]

Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]

Post by Paul
If this is a "used" PC, then nothing would have been
done to it. In such a case, the user should check the
battery bay, as the COA stick is sometimes place inside
that area to protect the thing from "scratches".
We've had a few people ask for help deciphering scratched
up COA stickers, so it's a real problem.

Many modern laptops, especially consumer-grade (which these ones a
probably *not* (but business ones)) do no longer have battery bays, but
have built-in, hard to remove/replace battery packs.

Post by Paul
A used machine could be received in any condition, including
with a bodged KMS license, or with no license at all (on
grace period).
It it is actually a "Win10 laptop", the ACPI MSDM table
in the BIOS contains the key. And that can't really be
removed. But it should also only activate one OS version.
Since Microsoft offers free upgrades, the detail of
that is likely to be "moot". When a laptop uses the MSDM
method, there is no need to attach a COA to the chassis,
and that is why the COA is "missing".

Yes, I think this is the most likely scenario. (FWIW, my HP Windows 11
laptop is like that, key in the BIOS.)
wipe the PIN-unkown/can't_get_in laptop and install only Windows 10 or
11 (i.e. lose the third-party software which came with the laptop).
If that's the case, can't he just get the Windows 10 or 11 media on a
USB memory-stick (as per the procedure mentioned before) and boot and
install from that stick?
I.e. unless the BIOS *also* has a password, can't he just boot from
the stick and re-install Windows 10/11, never mind the unknown PIN?

Sure, but typically the owner wants to make sure that "no assets are lost".
Which is why we try to document what identifiers the machine is showing,
if possible.

Of course you can put media on a USB stick, boot up, and install. As long
as there are no adversarial business laptop things (BIOS password) to get in the way,
it'll work.

When I get a foreign machine (and I've only had two), I do a full backup
first. Then if some sort of forensic activity does something naughty,
I can restore from backup. Take drive out of bay, slave up to technician
machine, do the backup. As otherwise, some protection thingy might
prevent running the Macrium CD. I would simply not buy or work on,
a foreign tablet (eMMC), as the media issues are "too hard for Paul" :-)

Say a machine has had two licenses. It might be nice to preserve both,
if your skills can be stretched to do that. A machine could have an
original key in the ACPI MSDM, plus have a purchased key for the
currently installed (PIN protected) one.

Paul

[g***@aol.com]

Post by VanguardLH

Post by g***@aol.com
I bought a used W/10-11 laptop and I don't have the sign in PIN.
I actually bought 2 and one had the PIN reset so I got into that one
OK.
I really don't care about the data on the one I can't get into but I
would like to be able to use it. Are there any tricks to get in?
Since these are identical laptops, I am really thinking about just
cloning the hard drive of the one I am into and laying that image down
on the other one. I just worry that there may be an activation issue.
I looked for a w/10-11 NG but I didn't see one.

Did you really buy both the hardware and the software (OS), or just the
hardware? If the OS was included, you should've got the installation
media, or instructions on how to hit a combo key on startup that does a
fresh install (from a stored image on a hidden partition).
The product key sticker should be on the laptop case, like on the bottom
(hopefully not so worn as to make the product key illegible). With the
product key, you can get the Win10/11 ISO images from Microsoft, do a
fresh install, and reuse the product key (assuming it isn't for a volume
license, because the laptop was sold off by a company that neglected to
erase the drives if no license were included).

This is an auction house that sold machines from a travel agent. I
doubt any of them know anything about the software or they would have
formatted the C:.
The one I could get into seemed to have all of the customer data wiped
and I didn't bother to look into the recycle bin. I added myself as an
admin and deleted the existing account. about 13,000 files were
deleted, If I had the key I would reload it but I don't.
I would put 7 on this but I can't find the drivers. This machine was
shipped with 10 Home-S.
Since the one is toast anyway if I can't get the PIN, I might go on a
driver search for 7. I am just looking for a travel machine to stream
from. I don't plan on doing anything productive with it.

[😉 Good Guy 😉]

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