Discussion:
Steam Desupport of Win7 EOY
(too old to reply)
Sailfish
2023-07-22 04:09:15 UTC
Permalink
I've been bust with work details so haven't had time to run Steam and
play any games I've purchased over the years. The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will no
longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which Steam
apparently uses.

The thing is, all my games currently work on Steam even after Chrome has
has already stopped updating Chrome. In fact, I can play the games now
if in offline mode so why shouldn't it still work past EOY? This seems
to suggest that the existing games one has such still work and only
their online web sites may present problems.

Can anyone provide more details of what's going on here. If true, this
seems wrong. It's like Sony or Microsoft cutting off game play on games
consumers had purchased on their consoles when they came out with a new
console.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Auric__
2023-07-22 18:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
I've been bust with work details so haven't had time to run Steam and
play any games I've purchased over the years. The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will no
longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which Steam
apparently uses.
The thing is, all my games currently work on Steam even after Chrome has
has already stopped updating Chrome. In fact, I can play the games now
if in offline mode so why shouldn't it still work past EOY? This seems
to suggest that the existing games one has such still work and only
their online web sites may present problems.
Can anyone provide more details of what's going on here. If true, this
seems wrong. It's like Sony or Microsoft cutting off game play on games
consumers had purchased on their consoles when they came out with a new
console.
The short version is, it's one less OS they want to worry about supporting.
Today happens to be the 14th anniversary of 7's RTM, and that is pretty old
in computing. The games might still work, but Steam itself will refuse to
run. (Personally, I'm still salty about Steam's end of support for MacOS
10.6...)
--
Watching government regulators trying to keep up with the world
is my favorite sport.
Sailfish
2023-07-22 22:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auric__
Post by Sailfish
I've been bust with work details so haven't had time to run Steam and
play any games I've purchased over the years. The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will no
longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which Steam
apparently uses.
The thing is, all my games currently work on Steam even after Chrome has
has already stopped updating Chrome. In fact, I can play the games now
if in offline mode so why shouldn't it still work past EOY? This seems
to suggest that the existing games one has such still work and only
their online web sites may present problems.
Can anyone provide more details of what's going on here. If true, this
seems wrong. It's like Sony or Microsoft cutting off game play on games
consumers had purchased on their consoles when they came out with a new
console.
The short version is, it's one less OS they want to worry about supporting.
Today happens to be the 14th anniversary of 7's RTM, and that is pretty old
in computing. The games might still work, but Steam itself will refuse to
run. (Personally, I'm still salty about Steam's end of support for MacOS
10.6...)
Thanks, if the games I purchased still worked in offline mode after EOY
I wouldn't be upset since I only play in Campaign mode rather than online.

Did your games still work in Campaign mode after Steam ended support for
(MacOS 10.6...)?
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Ant
2023-07-23 01:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Sailfish <***@nixcapsunforgettable.com> wrote:
...
Post by Sailfish
Thanks, if the games I purchased still worked in offline mode after EOY
I wouldn't be upset since I only play in Campaign mode rather than online.
Did your games still work in Campaign mode after Steam ended support for
(MacOS 10.6...)?
Take your computer offline from the Internet and see if those games still work. That should give you an idea.
--
"[The Lord, the everlasting God,] gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak." --Isaiah 40:29. Lots of humans outside after a BUSY very warmy outty worky Fri. 1883 ep. #6 was a meh.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )
Auric__
2023-07-23 02:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
Post by Auric__
Post by Sailfish
I've been bust with work details so haven't had time to run Steam and
play any games I've purchased over the years. The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will
no longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which
Steam apparently uses.
The thing is, all my games currently work on Steam even after Chrome
has has already stopped updating Chrome. In fact, I can play the games
now if in offline mode so why shouldn't it still work past EOY? This
seems to suggest that the existing games one has such still work and
only their online web sites may present problems.
Can anyone provide more details of what's going on here. If true, this
seems wrong. It's like Sony or Microsoft cutting off game play on
games consumers had purchased on their consoles when they came out
with a new console.
The short version is, it's one less OS they want to worry about
supporting. Today happens to be the 14th anniversary of 7's RTM, and
that is pretty old in computing. The games might still work, but Steam
itself will refuse to run. (Personally, I'm still salty about Steam's
end of support for MacOS 10.6...)
Thanks, if the games I purchased still worked in offline mode after EOY
I wouldn't be upset since I only play in Campaign mode rather than online.
Did your games still work in Campaign mode after Steam ended support for
(MacOS 10.6...)?
It's been a very long time since I gave it any thought, and since I no
longer have Steam on 10.6 I couldn't really say. I wasn't able to launch the
games through the Steam interface and I didn't really think about launching
them outside of Steam, so [shrug].

I do know that *most* of my games work under Windows without even installing
Steam, if I copied them off another install to a computer without Steam
installed, but YMMV. (Working: Baldur's Gate and related games, other old
games not originally released for Steam. Not working: I don't remember
because I have Steam installed here, but as Ant said, try offline mode.)
--
- We must embrace our failures and learn from them.
- That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
- How's the learning coming along?
Sailfish
2023-07-23 08:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auric__
Post by Sailfish
Post by Auric__
Post by Sailfish
I've been bust with work details so haven't had time to run Steam and
play any games I've purchased over the years. The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will
no longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which
Steam apparently uses.
The thing is, all my games currently work on Steam even after Chrome
has has already stopped updating Chrome. In fact, I can play the games
now if in offline mode so why shouldn't it still work past EOY? This
seems to suggest that the existing games one has such still work and
only their online web sites may present problems.
Can anyone provide more details of what's going on here. If true, this
seems wrong. It's like Sony or Microsoft cutting off game play on
games consumers had purchased on their consoles when they came out
with a new console.
The short version is, it's one less OS they want to worry about
supporting. Today happens to be the 14th anniversary of 7's RTM, and
that is pretty old in computing. The games might still work, but Steam
itself will refuse to run. (Personally, I'm still salty about Steam's
end of support for MacOS 10.6...)
Thanks, if the games I purchased still worked in offline mode after EOY
I wouldn't be upset since I only play in Campaign mode rather than online.
Did your games still work in Campaign mode after Steam ended support for
(MacOS 10.6...)?
It's been a very long time since I gave it any thought, and since I no
longer have Steam on 10.6 I couldn't really say. I wasn't able to launch the
games through the Steam interface and I didn't really think about launching
them outside of Steam, so [shrug].
I do know that *most* of my games work under Windows without even installing
Steam, if I copied them off another install to a computer without Steam
installed, but YMMV. (Working: Baldur's Gate and related games, other old
games not originally released for Steam. Not working: I don't remember
because I have Steam installed here, but as Ant said, try offline mode.)
Auric, Ant, yes, the ones I have installed still work in offline mode so
that's reassuring but I've got at least 40 games that are uninstalled
but sill on Steam's server so as not to lard up my machine with
installing them until I decide to play them again. So if Steam relies on
Chrome for their web interface and they desupport Win7 at EOY then
their's the real possibility that I won't be able to log into Steam to
download them when I want to play them in the future. Additionally, even
for the ones I current have installed, Steam still updates them
periodically (as an example, Steam just redownloaded and reinstalled
Halo - The Master Chief Collection when I started the game recently) so
there's still the possibility that they've included a deactivate time
bomb in new download updates.

Ugh! Well, I'll just have to mess with my rig and attempt to install a
dual boot copy of my Win7 system and then upgrade it to Win10. Normally,
this would be a breeze but my existing Win7 is split between two
volumes, the Win7 OS files on my low storage / fast access SSD and all
my installed programs (including Steam programs) on my high storage /
lower speed hard drive. I'll need to spend time to see if I can place
the Win7 OS files and the installed programs+data files together on one
drive (having two partitions) and hope I can get it to work and upgrade
that to Win10 just so I can have it for Steam and gaming.

Kind of a real mess fraught with lost time and nervous juxtaposing.

le sigh

Thanks
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Auric__
2023-07-24 15:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
Post by Auric__
Post by Sailfish
Post by Auric__
Post by Sailfish
I've been bust with work details so haven't had time to run Steam
and play any games I've purchased over the years. The other day I
started Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY
they will no longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome
desupport which Steam apparently uses.
The thing is, all my games currently work on Steam even after Chrome
has has already stopped updating Chrome. In fact, I can play the
games now if in offline mode so why shouldn't it still work past
EOY? This seems to suggest that the existing games one has such
still work and only their online web sites may present problems.
Can anyone provide more details of what's going on here. If true,
this seems wrong. It's like Sony or Microsoft cutting off game play
on games consumers had purchased on their consoles when they came
out with a new console.
The short version is, it's one less OS they want to worry about
supporting. Today happens to be the 14th anniversary of 7's RTM, and
that is pretty old in computing. The games might still work, but
Steam itself will refuse to run. (Personally, I'm still salty about
Steam's end of support for MacOS 10.6...)
Thanks, if the games I purchased still worked in offline mode after
EOY I wouldn't be upset since I only play in Campaign mode rather than
online.
Did your games still work in Campaign mode after Steam ended support
for (MacOS 10.6...)?
It's been a very long time since I gave it any thought, and since I no
longer have Steam on 10.6 I couldn't really say. I wasn't able to
launch the games through the Steam interface and I didn't really think
about launching them outside of Steam, so [shrug].
I do know that *most* of my games work under Windows without even
installing Steam, if I copied them off another install to a computer
without Steam installed, but YMMV. (Working: Baldur's Gate and related
I don't remember because I have Steam installed here, but as Ant said,
try offline mode.)
Auric, Ant, yes, the ones I have installed still work in offline mode so
that's reassuring but I've got at least 40 games that are uninstalled
but sill on Steam's server so as not to lard up my machine with
installing them until I decide to play them again. So if Steam relies on
Chrome for their web interface and they desupport Win7 at EOY then
their's the real possibility that I won't be able to log into Steam to
download them when I want to play them in the future. Additionally, even
for the ones I current have installed, Steam still updates them
periodically (as an example, Steam just redownloaded and reinstalled
Halo - The Master Chief Collection when I started the game recently) so
there's still the possibility that they've included a deactivate time
bomb in new download updates.
Ugh! Well, I'll just have to mess with my rig and attempt to install a
dual boot copy of my Win7 system and then upgrade it to Win10. Normally,
this would be a breeze but my existing Win7 is split between two
volumes, the Win7 OS files on my low storage / fast access SSD and all
my installed programs (including Steam programs) on my high storage /
lower speed hard drive. I'll need to spend time to see if I can place
the Win7 OS files and the installed programs+data files together on one
drive (having two partitions) and hope I can get it to work and upgrade
that to Win10 just so I can have it for Steam and gaming.
Kind of a real mess fraught with lost time and nervous juxtaposing.
le sigh
Thanks
Buy an external USB3 hard drive. (Not USB2; way too slow.) Make sure it's
*big* -- as big as you can afford, but certainly big enough for your entire
Steam library. Set up a new Steam library folder on it. Install *all* of
your games there that you don't have installed elsewhere.
--
Jesus - Now Peanut Free!
Sailfish
2023-07-26 05:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
Auric, Ant, yes, the ones I have installed still work in offline mode so
that's reassuring but I've got at least 40 games that are uninstalled
but sill on Steam's server so as not to lard up my machine with
installing them until I decide to play them again. So if Steam relies on
Chrome for their web interface and they desupport Win7 at EOY then
their's the real possibility that I won't be able to log into Steam to
download them when I want to play them in the future. Additionally, even
for the ones I current have installed, Steam still updates them
periodically (as an example, Steam just redownloaded and reinstalled
Halo - The Master Chief Collection when I started the game recently) so
there's still the possibility that they've included a deactivate time
bomb in new download updates.
Ugh! Well, I'll just have to mess with my rig and attempt to install a
dual boot copy of my Win7 system and then upgrade it to Win10. Normally,
this would be a breeze but my existing Win7 is split between two
volumes, the Win7 OS files on my low storage / fast access SSD and all
my installed programs (including Steam programs) on my high storage /
lower speed hard drive. I'll need to spend time to see if I can place
the Win7 OS files and the installed programs+data files together on one
drive (having two partitions) and hope I can get it to work and upgrade
that to Win10 just so I can have it for Steam and gaming.
Kind of a real mess fraught with lost time and nervous juxtaposing.
tl;dr
Some nervousness and re-reading tech sources several times but, in the
end, it worked and was simpler than I'd expected.

I will post how I did it in a separate post once I write it all down for
anyone who might be interested.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
VanguardLH
2023-07-26 06:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
Some nervousness and re-reading tech sources several times but, in the
end, it worked and was simpler than I'd expected.
I will post how I did it in a separate post once I write it all down for
anyone who might be interested.
I'm on Windows 10, but still interested how to get past their de-support
since Windows 10 support expires in 2 years, and maybe Steam will be
dumping support for Windows 10, too.
Auric__
2023-07-26 08:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Sailfish
Some nervousness and re-reading tech sources several times but, in the
end, it worked and was simpler than I'd expected.
I will post how I did it in a separate post once I write it all down for
anyone who might be interested.
I'm on Windows 10, but still interested how to get past their de-support
since Windows 10 support expires in 2 years, and maybe Steam will be
dumping support for Windows 10, too.
Not immediately, but yes, they will eventually drop 10. Probably a year or
two after official support ends. Hopefully something better than 11 comes
along before then.
--
Bear with me. Certainty is not at hand.
Mark Lloyd
2023-07-26 15:37:22 UTC
Permalink
On 7/26/23 03:04, Auric__ wrote:

[snip]
Post by Auric__
Not immediately, but yes, they will eventually drop 10. Probably a year or
two after official support ends. Hopefully something better than 11 comes
along before then.
Considering what's happening with Windows, I expect another version. As
to "better", that's different.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Of course, we cannot guarantee our Bibles against normal wear or
abuse." [Oxford University Press]
VanguardLH
2023-07-26 17:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Lloyd
Post by Auric__
Not immediately, but yes, they will eventually drop 10. Probably a
year or two after official support ends. Hopefully something better
than 11 comes along before then.
Considering what's happening with Windows, I expect another version.
As to "better", that's different.
As to acceptanced (accepted or panned) of NT-based versions of Windows,
the following patterned occurred:

Windows XP: accepted
Windows Vista: panned
Windows 7: accepted
Windows 8: panned
Windows 10: accepted
Windows 11: panned

Windows 3.1, 4, and 2000 were omitted because they were primarily
oriented to workstations in a domain environment on corporate networks.

According to the pattern above, best to wait for Windows 12.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-11-home-and-pro

Microsoft doesn't specify when is end of support for Windows 11 in that
article. Windows 10 support dies in 2025. For Windows 10:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-home-and-pro

That shows a 10-year lifecycle for Windows 10. Used to be 6 years, but
"Windows as a service" has extended the support lifecycle. If 10 years
is what Microsoft now goes with for lifecycle, Windows 11 support dies
in 2031. So, we have up to another 8 years left on Windows 11 before
Windows 12 show up. Yet there are articles predicting Windows 12 will
show up in March 2024.

https://arogyabharti2021.in/windows-12-release-date-features/

I have deliberately disabled Intel's PTT (Platform Trust Technology)
firmware code in my BIOS which emulates the hardware TPM chip. The
result is Windows Update never bothers to offer me an "upgrade" to
Windows 11. If I wanted to move to Windows 12 (which won't be for a 2
to 3 years after its release), I'd have to reenable the Intel PTT code
in my BIOS that emulates the TPM chip, as TPM is a requirement for
Windows 12. I do NOT have Secure Boot enabled in BIOS, and don't want
it, but Windows 12 may demand it. The "multiple home screens" options
sounds like how Android phones used to have a home screen, and secondary
screens, but now all of the multiple screens are home screens.

Microsoft keeps taking away. Users complain. Microsoft puts back some
of what it took away. The Taskbar is slated to return in Windows 12,
but probably the "new" taskbar will be different than the old taskbar in
Windows 10. Microsoft tried to push their CorePC to modularize the OS.
Core OS faded, but is coming back as CorePC, and perhaps in Windows 12.

https://root-nation.com/en/articles-en/windows-en/en-corepc-microsoft/

Too early to tell if Windows 12 will be a panned or accepted version of
Windows. The users will decide, so status won't be known until about a
couple years after release.
pyotr filipivich
2023-07-26 19:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Auric__
Post by VanguardLH
I'm on Windows 10, but still interested how to get past their de-support
since Windows 10 support expires in 2 years, and maybe Steam will be
dumping support for Windows 10, too.
Not immediately, but yes, they will eventually drop 10. Probably a year or
two after official support ends. Hopefully something better than 11 comes
along before then.
Past performance is no indicator of future performance.

But that is the way to bet.

(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Auric__
2023-07-26 19:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Auric__
Post by VanguardLH
I'm on Windows 10, but still interested how to get past their de-support
since Windows 10 support expires in 2 years, and maybe Steam will be
dumping support for Windows 10, too.
Not immediately, but yes, they will eventually drop 10. Probably a year or
two after official support ends. Hopefully something better than 11 comes
along before then.
Past performance is no indicator of future performance.
But that is the way to bet.
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed. 10 may very well be the last version I use.
--
Since when do you have an elf?
J. P. Gilliver
2023-07-26 20:29:03 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@135.181.20.170> at Wed,
26 Jul 2023 19:55:38, Auric__ <***@email.address> writes
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed. 10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98, and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.

Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement - but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.

The only other thing is web site "development" that means they won't
work with older browsers, and newer browsers won't work with older OSs.
It's not reached that stage for 7-32 yet, but presumably will.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Quantum particles: the dreams that stuff is made of - David Moser
Auric__
2023-07-26 22:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed. 10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98, and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.
I've never said it before now. It was always just "I'm not using this new
version, I'll wait for the next version." I skipped Vista and 8, I would
have skipped XP but got hardware that didn't support 2000, etc.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement - but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.
I switched from XP to 7 to avoid 8 (because reasons). I switched to 10 when
7 support ended, not because I needed to but because my nephew talked me
into it (and now I have a machine that lacks 7 drivers).

Personally, I could switch to Linux without issue, I'm just more comfortable
on Windows -- and since I mostly write Windows programs, it makes sense to
do it on actual Windows rather than Wine. (Yes, emulation, but still.)
Post by J. P. Gilliver
The only other thing is web site "development" that means they won't
work with older browsers, and newer browsers won't work with older OSs.
It's not reached that stage for 7-32 yet, but presumably will.
I wish Opera still updated their old Presto engine. I much prefered it over
pretty much anything else.
--
What our audience is thinking:
...I wonder if that's all true?
Sailfish
2023-07-27 01:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed. 10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98, and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.
Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement - but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.
The only other thing is web site "development" that means they won't
work with older browsers, and newer browsers won't work with older OSs.
It's not reached that stage for 7-32 yet, but presumably will.
While still testing, performing a Win7 dual boot by cloning my existing
Win7 OS to another installed hardrive and then upgrading the cloned Win7
to Win10 looks pretty good so far. The nice thing about it is that I
didn't have to reinstall all my existing programs AND even the
registered ones I've tested like Office 2016 still wok fine on either
system.

I was putting this off but, as you said, once Google desupported Win7,
all the other browsers, and programs that depend on it (such as Steam)
forced to hasten the dual boot option.

Still, I detest Win10 for a variety of reasons that have been listed on
these forums by myself and many others, so I will stay with Win7 as my
GoTo OS as long as I can hold out.

There won't be a Win11 dual boot option for my rig since it doesn't
support TPM but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Sailfish
2023-08-11 21:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
While still testing, performing a Win7 dual boot by cloning my existing
Win7 OS to another installed hardrive and then upgrading the cloned Win7
to Win10 looks pretty good so far. The nice thing about it is that I
didn't have to reinstall all my existing programs AND even the
registered ones I've tested like Office 2016 still wok fine on either
system.
I was putting this off but, as you said, once Google desupported Win7,
all the other browsers, and programs that depend on it (such as Steam)
forced to hasten the dual boot option.
Still, I detest Win10 for a variety of reasons that have been listed on
these forums by myself and many others, so I will stay with Win7 as my
GoTo OS as long as I can hold out.
There won't be a Win11 dual boot option for my rig since it doesn't
support TPM but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
tl;dr
Some nervousness and re-reading tech sites several times but, in the
end, it worked and was simpler than I'd expected. Also, some computer
BIOSes may not support dual boot option so it would be prudent to
investigate there computer beforehand to insure it does.
//
WARNING! BEFORE STARTING, MAKE SURE YOU DO A FULL BACKUP OF SYSTEM
BEFOREHAND.
//
Prerequisites:
1. Full disk cloning backup and restore program, e.g., Macrium Reflect
2. Spare wiped and formatted disk of equal or larger size

Installing Dual Boot W10 on Win7 Desktop
----------------------------------------
Existing Win7 Installation Drive:
Win7 OS, programs and data C:\

Note: Standard installations OS and data files are generally all
contained on one drive; so there will only need to be one spare drive.

Targeted Win10 Installation Drive:
Win10 OS, programs and data F: <- see Notes

Notes
1. Boot environment (and BCD) should be always on [first disk + active
partition] so, ensure existing Win7 boot drive is before Target
Win10 drive in BIOS order
2. Target drive letters are arbitrary and can be assigned by
C:\Windows\System32\diskmgmt.msc
3. Target Win10 drive can be a hard drive instead of a SSD drive but
have degraded performance

Creating Win7 and Win 10 Dual Boot system
-----------------------------------------
1. Using Macrium Reflect, clone existing Win7 (C:) drive and restore it
to target Win10 drive (F:)
2. Reboot system into existing Win7 system
3. Open CMD window with System Administration privileges and enter
following commands:
bcdboot C:\windows
bcdboot F:\windows
4. Done!

Reboot system and you should be presented with a dual boot option,
having your existing Win7 OS on both the original drive AND the cloned
drive. All that's required then is to reboot and select the cloned Win7
drive and then upgrade it to Win10. Once completed, your Win10 drive
will be upgraded to Win10 and all you existing installed program will
still work (Note: some Win7 intrinsic Microsoft games may not work in
Win10.) However, most of the other previously installed programs should
still work without needing to be reinstalled nor the need to re-register
them AND still work on Win7, as well. Additionally, your Win10 desktop
skeuomorphic icons and theme should still display (mine does) and icon
placement should still be the same; although the Aero desktop will be
replaced with souless Win10 flat design look (no transparency, no
rounded corners).

Conceivably, this procedure could work for a laptop using a bootable
portable exterior USB drive but performance would be quite a bit slower.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Paul
2023-08-11 23:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
1. Using Macrium Reflect, clone existing Win7 (C:) drive and restore it
   to target Win10 drive (F:)
2. Reboot system into existing Win7 system
3. Open CMD window with System Administration privileges and enter
     bcdboot C:\windows
     bcdboot F:\windows
4. Done!
Just some minor comments about the topic.

The reason some of this works, is because Macrium changes the partition
identifiers when it clones.

If you were a person who spends part of your time in Linux, in Linux
the identifiers are all preserved ("duplicated") at your peril. You then
have to learn how to change the identifiers, before any next steps can
take place. So what Macrium is doing for you, on a clone, is useful.

When you do that (change identifiers), as a tool maker, you have to
provide a recipe then, to join all those identifiers together and make
a boot menu. Which has a minor level of risk associated with it.
In a few cases, I've done stuff like this, and no amount of
dropping-to-command-line would make the damn boot menu work :-/
I've used multiple third party tools, and still could not fix it.

If you type "bcdedit", you can review the construction of the BCD so far.
And see if any bits of it are missing. You will need to see "a working one",
to know what "a busted one" looks like. And this is purely the menu -- if
the ESP and a folder in there is damaged, you normally cannot easily see
that, and even when you do get a look in there, it may not be apparent
what is broken. At least, I've never looked in there and had an "aha!" moment.

With those bcdboot commands, you could do

bcdboot ...
bcdedit # Review what the first bcdboot has done
bcdboot ...
bcdedit # Review what the second bcdboot has done. Check to see which OS is "Default"

*******

If you see red file entries in the ESP FAT32 file system, there is a good
chance those are deleted, and not really there, and that's what the red
color means. At first I thought that was a permissions thing, but FAT32
does not have permissions, so that theory did not hold water.

Paul
Sailfish
2023-08-12 00:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Sailfish
1. Using Macrium Reflect, clone existing Win7 (C:) drive and restore it
to target Win10 drive (F:)
2. Reboot system into existing Win7 system
3. Open CMD window with System Administration privileges and enter
bcdboot C:\windows
bcdboot F:\windows
4. Done!
Just some minor comments about the topic.
The reason some of this works, is because Macrium changes the partition
identifiers when it clones.
If you were a person who spends part of your time in Linux, in Linux
the identifiers are all preserved ("duplicated") at your peril. You then
have to learn how to change the identifiers, before any next steps can
take place. So what Macrium is doing for you, on a clone, is useful.
When you do that (change identifiers), as a tool maker, you have to
provide a recipe then, to join all those identifiers together and make
a boot menu. Which has a minor level of risk associated with it.
In a few cases, I've done stuff like this, and no amount of
dropping-to-command-line would make the damn boot menu work :-/
I've used multiple third party tools, and still could not fix it.
If you type "bcdedit", you can review the construction of the BCD so far.
And see if any bits of it are missing. You will need to see "a working one",
to know what "a busted one" looks like. And this is purely the menu -- if
the ESP and a folder in there is damaged, you normally cannot easily see
that, and even when you do get a look in there, it may not be apparent
what is broken. At least, I've never looked in there and had an "aha!" moment.
With those bcdboot commands, you could do
bcdboot ...
bcdedit # Review what the first bcdboot has done
bcdboot ...
bcdedit # Review what the second bcdboot has done. Check to see which OS is "Default"
*******
If you see red file entries in the ESP FAT32 file system, there is a good
chance those are deleted, and not really there, and that's what the red
color means. At first I thought that was a permissions thing, but FAT32
does not have permissions, so that theory did not hold water.
First, thanks Paul, I was hoping you might chime in adding clarification
where needed. This is especially true for your insight on dual-booting
Linux installations which I only have on a VirtualBox.

I was not aware of Macrium Reflect's added cloning feature. Does that
mean that other cloning programs such as Acronis may not or does not
provide this and, as such, may not work if used instead of Reflect?
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Paul
2023-08-12 03:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Sailfish
1. Using Macrium Reflect, clone existing Win7 (C:) drive and restore it
   to target Win10 drive (F:)
2. Reboot system into existing Win7 system
3. Open CMD window with System Administration privileges and enter
     bcdboot C:\windows
     bcdboot F:\windows
4. Done!
Just some minor comments about the topic.
The reason some of this works, is because Macrium changes the partition
identifiers when it clones.
If you were a person who spends part of your time in Linux, in Linux
the identifiers are all preserved ("duplicated") at your peril. You then
have to learn how to change the identifiers, before any next steps can
take place. So what Macrium is doing for you, on a clone, is useful.
When you do that (change identifiers), as a tool maker, you have to
provide a recipe then, to join all those identifiers together and make
a boot menu. Which has a minor level of risk associated with it.
In a few cases, I've done stuff like this, and no amount of
dropping-to-command-line would make the damn boot menu work :-/
I've used multiple third party tools, and still could not fix it.
If you type "bcdedit", you can review the construction of the BCD so far.
And see if any bits of it are missing. You will need to see "a working one",
to know what "a busted one" looks like. And this is purely the menu -- if
the ESP and a folder in there is damaged, you normally cannot easily see
that, and even when you do get a look in there, it may not be apparent
what is broken. At least, I've never looked in there and had an "aha!" moment.
With those bcdboot commands, you could do
bcdboot ...
bcdedit      # Review what the first bcdboot has done
bcdboot ...
bcdedit      # Review what the second bcdboot has done. Check to see which OS is "Default"
*******
If you see red file entries in the ESP FAT32 file system, there is a good
chance those are deleted, and not really there, and that's what the red
color means. At first I thought that was a permissions thing, but FAT32
does not have permissions, so that theory did not hold water.
First, thanks Paul, I was hoping you might chime in adding clarification where needed. This is especially true for your insight on dual-booting Linux installations which I only have on a VirtualBox.
I was not aware of Macrium Reflect's added cloning feature. Does that mean that other cloning programs such as Acronis may not or does not provide this and, as such, may not work if used instead of Reflect?
This is mainly an issue on the Linux side, as the tools there
do not seem to believe in "convenience". I haven't figured out
why "manual control" is a prized property. You would think that at
least Clonezilla would add some software to take care of that.

Using "dd" for cloning for example, doesn't change any identifiers
and then additional steps are required to prevent trouble.

You see, if you present a recipe, the audience may go "hey, I can
substitute X for that step", when perhaps X isn't good enough.

You're very brave to do a dual boot inside VirtualBox -- many rough edges,
easy to get cut etc. It's hard enough to do the key press and get to the
EFI boot menu in there. There's no pressing need to do EFI in there,
but again, a person might be tempted. And VirtualBox isn't really all
that ready for Windows 11. I used VMWare Workstation Player for that, but
discovered a rough edge in there, that destroyed my Guest :-/ (The twits
encrypted the settings file, and once a "bad" setting is asserted in there,
it's all over for your Guest. Most times, a person would hand edit a text
file and fix an issue like that. With the file encrypted, it is Toastios.)
Are we having fun yet ? Hmmm.

And the VMWare thing is a fetish. Whips and chains for the marketing department.
Totally unnecessary evil.

Paul
Sailfish
2023-08-12 04:58:24 UTC
Permalink
<snip />
Post by Paul
This is especially true for your insight on dual-booting Linux installations which I only have on a VirtualBox.
<snip />
Post by Paul
You're very brave to do a dual boot inside VirtualBox -- many rough edges,
easy to get cut etc. It's hard enough to do the key press and get to the
EFI boot menu in there. There's no pressing need to do EFI in there,
but again, a person might be tempted. And VirtualBox isn't really all
that ready for Windows 11. I used VMWare Workstation Player for that, but
discovered a rough edge in there, that destroyed my Guest :-/ (The twits
encrypted the settings file, and once a "bad" setting is asserted in there,
it's all over for your Guest. Most times, a person would hand edit a text
file and fix an issue like that. With the file encrypted, it is Toastios.)
Are we having fun yet ? Hmmm.
I regret being imprecise regarding my Linux machine. What I should have
stated was that I have VirtualBox installed on my Win7 OS and added a
Linux distro to VirtualBox, since I don't use it that often. One day in
the future when micros~1 forces me to go to a subscription service, I
may look into hosting a Linux distro as a boot option. Hopefully, it'll
be a few years out before that happens.

I didn't want to add more confusion to the dual boot project discussion
than I did but my Win7 system was hosted on 2 drives, the OS on a SSD
and the data and installation files on a 3TB hard drive. I ended cloning
2 drives instead of 1 onto similar 2 drives. To say I was nervous would
be an understatement but, in the end, it worked splendidly. Macrium
Reflect is a godsend!
Post by Paul
And the VMWare thing is a fetish. Whips and chains for the marketing department.
Totally unnecessary evil.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
J. P. Gilliver
2023-08-12 08:43:33 UTC
Permalink
In message <ub73hg$17b1b$***@dont-email.me> at Fri, 11 Aug 2023 21:58:24,
Sailfish <***@NIXCAPSunforgettable.com> writes
[]
Post by Sailfish
Linux distro to VirtualBox, since I don't use it that often. One day in
the future when micros~1 forces me to go to a subscription service, I
[]
It could of course be argued that it's already a subscription "service",
just that the renewal period is a little longer than that of most other
such (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm not against women. Not often enough, anyway." - Groucho Marx
Sailfish
2023-08-13 01:07:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Sailfish
Linux distro to VirtualBox, since I don't use it that often. One day
in the future when micros~1 forces me to go to a subscription service, I
[]
It could of course be argued that it's already a subscription "service",
just that the renewal period is a little longer than that of most other
It depends, I suppose. I haven't had to renew by Win7 OS in 14 years and
since Win10 was a free upgrade, I should have a few more years free of
subscriptions on that. Those kinds of subscription time frames I can get
used to :-D
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
Ken Blake
2023-07-27 16:49:55 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 21:29:03 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed.
There's a lot of truth in that, but I don't completely agree.
Microsoft *does* do a lot of research on what customers want and
like.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Auric__
10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98,
Me too, It's a very common statement, but it rarely turns out to be
true for anyone.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.
But I've never said it. I always try to use the latest version, for
two reasons (I've probably said this here before):

1. I know that it won't be too long before I'll need or desire a new
piece of hardware or software that won't run on the older version.

2. If I eventually upgrade to a newer version, but skip a version of
two. the changes from what I'm used to are likely to be significantly
bigger and take longer to learn and adapt to.

So I'm running Windows 11, and with a couple of third-party
interface-improving utilities (mostly Start11 and WinAeroTweaker), I'm
happy with it. If you have to use a new version out of the box, some
versions (going from 7 to 8, for example) can be very difficult to
adapt to.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement
Yes, a major factor for most people.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
- but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.
The only other thing is web site "development" that means they won't
work with older browsers, and newer browsers won't work with older OSs.
It's not reached that stage for 7-32 yet, but presumably will.
It always does. It's like "do I need a backup?" It's a question of
when, not whether.
J. P. Gilliver
2023-07-27 17:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 21:29:03 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed.
There's a lot of truth in that, but I don't completely agree.
Microsoft *does* do a lot of research on what customers want and
like.
And then totally ignore it! (Sorry, couldn't resist. They do _sometimes_
pay attention - but implement what we want in a way that's very
convoluted.)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Auric__
10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98,
Me too, It's a very common statement, but it rarely turns out to be
true for anyone.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.
But I've never said it. I always try to use the latest version, for
1. I know that it won't be too long before I'll need or desire a new
piece of hardware or software that won't run on the older version.
I can't imagine _desiring_ any hardware I haven't got. I may _need_, if
something fails. And as for software, I don't think I've even wanted -
let alone needed - anything I don't already have, for some years.
Post by Ken Blake
2. If I eventually upgrade to a newer version, but skip a version of
two. the changes from what I'm used to are likely to be significantly
bigger and take longer to learn and adapt to.
It pays to remain _aware_ of the later versions. Whether you allocate a
significant amount of time to this, or just accept you'll have a big
lump of effort if/when you change, is a matter for personal choice ...
Post by Ken Blake
So I'm running Windows 11, and with a couple of third-party
interface-improving utilities (mostly Start11 and WinAeroTweaker), I'm
... especially if you can find some UI tweakers that get you back to (or
close to) where you were.
Post by Ken Blake
happy with it. If you have to use a new version out of the box, some
versions (going from 7 to 8, for example) can be very difficult to
adapt to.
8 was (initially) horrible. Probably fine for new users; most existing
users stayed with their XP at that point, with a few staying at 7. If MS
(it's a monopoly in all but name) bring out a version that's
sufficiently bad, they _have_ to fix it.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement
Yes, a major factor for most people.
Well, for unusual reasons, I had to get a computer earlier this year. I
didn't have a _great_ deal of trouble finding a 7-32 machine (and I'm
still actually enjoying using it: it's responsive, and better in some
respects than my previous 7-32 machine).
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
- but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.
The only other thing is web site "development" that means they won't
work with older browsers, and newer browsers won't work with older OSs.
It's not reached that stage for 7-32 yet, but presumably will.
It always does. It's like "do I need a backup?" It's a question of
when, not whether.
We don't have to _like_ it, though. (Do you change your car every 3
years or less, too? [That's a viable approach, just not the one I
follow.])
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

We're not poor, we just don't have any money.
- Brenda Blethyn's mother quoted in RT 2021/8/28-9/3
pyotr filipivich
2023-07-27 19:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 21:29:03 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed.
There's a lot of truth in that, but I don't completely agree.
Microsoft *does* do a lot of research on what customers want and
like.
And then totally ignore it! (Sorry, couldn't resist. They do _sometimes_
pay attention - but implement what we want in a way that's very
convoluted.)
I really don't care what is going on "under the hood" - it is the
user interface where things get "buggy". Especially when one has
"muscle memory" of how to do things, and "suddenly" it doesn't work
any more.
The analogy I use it that my new car has a console mounted shift
lever, whereas my old one had the shift lever on the column. So for
the first couple months, I would arrive some where, throw the car into
Park, and my windshield wipers would come on.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Ken Blake
2023-07-28 15:21:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 18:36:24 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 21:29:03 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed.
There's a lot of truth in that, but I don't completely agree.
Microsoft *does* do a lot of research on what customers want and
like.
And then totally ignore it!
Maybe sometimes, but rarely. If that were even close to universally
true, they wouldn't do any research.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
(Sorry, couldn't resist. They do _sometimes_
pay attention - but implement what we want in a way that's very
convoluted.)
Sometimes. If they were to do more research, it might happen less
often.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Auric__
10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98,
Me too, It's a very common statement, but it rarely turns out to be
true for anyone.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.
But I've never said it. I always try to use the latest version, for
1. I know that it won't be too long before I'll need or desire a new
piece of hardware or software that won't run on the older version.
I can't imagine _desiring_ any hardware I haven't got.
I can imagine lots of things:

a much better, cheaper, faster printer.

a faster CPU

a faster SSD

some new vehicle for installing software--something like a better,
faster thumb drive, and one that all software manufacturers have
switched to

a new kind of better, bigger monitor--perhaps with 3d

etc.

And many other things that neither I nor anyone else has thought of
yet.

Technology changes all the time. As new technology becomes available,
our desires, along with our needs, changes.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
I may _need_, if
something fails. And as for software, I don't think I've even wanted -
let alone needed - anything I don't already have, for some years.
New software always becomes available. Sometimes a completely new
program, sometimes a new much better version of an old program. Again,
I can't predict what will come, or what I will want, but I know it
will happen.

If your old version of some program is new longer supported, you may
well need a newer version.

As a couple of examples of what I mean, I use Quicken. Several
(important to me) features always stop working in older versions. So I
need to frequently change to a newer version.

I no long do it, but I used to use Turbo Tax. That *always* requires
the latest version.
.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
2. If I eventually upgrade to a newer version, but skip a version of
two. the changes from what I'm used to are likely to be significantly
bigger and take longer to learn and adapt to.
It pays to remain _aware_ of the later versions. Whether you allocate a
significant amount of time to this, or just accept you'll have a big
lump of effort if/when you change, is a matter for personal choice ...
OK, but being aware of it and having experience using it are two
completely different things, as far as I'm concerned.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
So I'm running Windows 11, and with a couple of third-party
interface-improving utilities (mostly Start11 and WinAeroTweaker), I'm
... especially if you can find some UI tweakers that get you back to (or
close to) where you were.
Yes. But to me, not so much as where I was, but to where I prefer it
to be.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
happy with it. If you have to use a new version out of the box, some
versions (going from 7 to 8, for example) can be very difficult to
adapt to.
8 was (initially) horrible.
We completely agree on that. But many other people don't and liked it.

It got a little better with 8.1, but I still hated it.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably fine for new users; most existing
users stayed with their XP at that point, with a few staying at 7.
Most? I have no statistics, but I doubt it. Certainly some, but I
don't think it was most.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
If MS
(it's a monopoly in all but name) bring out a version that's
sufficiently bad, they _have_ to fix it.
No, they have to fix it if it doesn't sell. Whether you or I think
it's sufficiently bad is irrelevant.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement
Yes, a major factor for most people.
Well, for unusual reasons, I had to get a computer earlier this year. I
didn't have a _great_ deal of trouble finding a 7-32 machine (and I'm
still actually enjoying using it: it's responsive, and better in some
respects than my previous 7-32 machine).
Wait a few more years. If your new machine dies, you'll have much more
trouble finding one.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
- but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.
The only other thing is web site "development" that means they won't
work with older browsers, and newer browsers won't work with older OSs.
It's not reached that stage for 7-32 yet, but presumably will.
It always does. It's like "do I need a backup?" It's a question of
when, not whether.
We don't have to _like_ it, though.
Right.
Post by J. P. Gilliver
(Do you change your car every 3
years or less, too? [That's a viable approach, just not the one I
follow.])
I don't follow it either. But If I were much richer than I am, I'd
probably do it every year or two. I'd do the same with my computer, so
I could always have the faster computer available.

Your views and mine on this subject are clearly very different. That's
fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--just pointing out
why I have the views I do.
J. P. Gilliver
2023-07-29 02:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 18:36:24 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
[]
Post by Ken Blake
And many other things that neither I nor anyone else has thought of
yet.
Technology changes all the time. As new technology becomes available,
our desires, along with our needs, changes.
Indeed.

_Could_ be that I can envisage running two machines: one old and
familiar, one new _just_ to run some new hardware - or _possibly_ new
software; with gradual moving over of stuff as I get used to the new. I
think I've considered doing this in the past - there have certainly been
times when I was running two machines (e. g. '98SElite and XP), but I
think the transition period was mostly quite short. I genuinely can't
remember now.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
If your old version of some program is new longer supported, you may
well need a newer version.
As a couple of examples of what I mean, I use Quicken. Several
(important to me) features always stop working in older versions. So I
need to frequently change to a newer version.
I'm intrigued by "stop working". Is this rentalware like Office 365? Or
by "stop working", do you mean "won't work on a newer OS"?
Post by Ken Blake
I no long do it, but I used to use Turbo Tax. That *always* requires
the latest version.
.
I am aware that many (is it most? nearly all?) US citizens have to do
annual tax returns, and that seems to be a significant driver in the
need to buy new software, and thus new hardware. The majority of UK
_employees_ never do a tax return (the self-employed or small businesses
of course do have to).
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
2. If I eventually upgrade to a newer version, but skip a version of
two. the changes from what I'm used to are likely to be significantly
bigger and take longer to learn and adapt to.
It pays to remain _aware_ of the later versions. Whether you allocate a
significant amount of time to this, or just accept you'll have a big
lump of effort if/when you change, is a matter for personal choice ...
OK, but being aware of it and having experience using it are two
completely different things, as far as I'm concerned.
It may also be affected by employment. When I was employed, my employer
(a large technology firm) used _mostly_ the second-latest version of
Windows, so I had to be familiar with that; when until about a year ago
I was in the lowest (unpaid) tier of local government here (called
parish council, though has nothing to do with the church), I was issued
with a Windows 10/Outlook/Office 365 laptop, which I used, so was
familiar with the quirks of those.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
8 was (initially) horrible.
We completely agree on that. But many other people don't and liked it.
It got a little better with 8.1, but I still hated it.
I think even the original 8 _had_ a conventional desktop, it's just that
it didn't appear by default.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably fine for new users; most existing
users stayed with their XP at that point, with a few staying at 7.
Most? I have no statistics, but I doubt it. Certainly some, but I
don't think it was most.
Well, most users aren't like us here, and just take what they're given -
and almost never upgrade their OS, they just buy a new computer. (Though
this is beginning to change with the 7/8 to 10 and 10 to 11 changes
being automated unless you opted out - but only if the hardware was
suited.)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Well, for unusual reasons, I had to get a computer earlier this year. I
didn't have a _great_ deal of trouble finding a 7-32 machine (and I'm
still actually enjoying using it: it's responsive, and better in some
respects than my previous 7-32 machine).
Wait a few more years. If your new machine dies, you'll have much more
trouble finding one.
True. I might consider getting one and storing it. But more likely,
would indeed just move on. (With consideration of VMs.)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
(Do you change your car every 3
years or less, too? [That's a viable approach, just not the one I
follow.])
I don't follow it either. But If I were much richer than I am, I'd
probably do it every year or two. I'd do the same with my computer, so
Going to be shaken up here with the change to electric vehicles; I see
no way they're going to have the infrastructure in place, and I know
(partly due to the greater distances, but only partly that) that the USA
is nowhere near ready. The dates here are still - no _new_ petrol/diesel
only cars after 2030, no _new_ hybrids after 2035. I can see the
second-hand market - and that for new p/d-only ones just before the
cutoff dates - going crazy.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Your views and mine on this subject are clearly very different. That's
fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--just pointing out
why I have the views I do.
We're probably not as different as it may seem. I think mine is just a
resentment of the decision being made by others, rather than me. And in
perfectly-well-working kit being made obsolete by changes that _don't_
benefit me.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I admire you British: when things get tough, you reach for humour. Not
firearms. - Sigourney (Susan) Weaver, RT 2017/11/4-10
Ken Blake
2023-07-29 15:51:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 03:33:19 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
Post by Auric__
Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 18:36:24 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
[]
Post by Ken Blake
And many other things that neither I nor anyone else has thought of
yet.
Technology changes all the time. As new technology becomes available,
our desires, along with our needs, changes.
Indeed.
_Could_ be that I can envisage running two machines: one old and
familiar, one new _just_ to run some new hardware - or _possibly_ new
software; with gradual moving over of stuff as I get used to the new. I
think I've considered doing this in the past - there have certainly been
times when I was running two machines (e. g. '98SElite and XP), but I
think the transition period was mostly quite short. I genuinely can't
remember now.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
If your old version of some program is new longer supported, you may
well need a newer version.
As a couple of examples of what I mean, I use Quicken. Several
(important to me) features always stop working in older versions. So I
need to frequently change to a newer version.
I'm intrigued by "stop working". Is this rentalware like Office 365?
Yes, that's sort of what it's become in recent years, but that's not
what I meant.
Post by Auric__
Or
by "stop working", do you mean "won't work on a newer OS"?
No. One of Quicken's features is that it enables me to download the
latest prices for the stocks I own, and thereby updates the value of
my holdings. That feature works on the current year's version, and
maybe the versions a year or two old, but it stops working when the
version gets older.

Why does it do this? Clearly so they can force its users to buy a new
version.
Post by Auric__
Post by Ken Blake
I no long do it, but I used to use Turbo Tax. That *always* requires
the latest version.
.
I am aware that many (is it most? nearly all?) US citizens have to do
annual tax returns, and that seems to be a significant driver in the
need to buy new software,
Yes, for those who use TurboTax. Not everyone does.
Post by Auric__
and thus new hardware.
Not necessarily.
Post by Auric__
The majority of UK
_employees_ never do a tax return
Interesting. I didn't know that,

Over the years, my taxes have become more complicated, and I no longer
do them myself. I now use a professional to do them for me.
Post by Auric__
(the self-employed or small businesses
of course do have to).
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Post by Ken Blake
2. If I eventually upgrade to a newer version, but skip a version of
two. the changes from what I'm used to are likely to be significantly
bigger and take longer to learn and adapt to.
It pays to remain _aware_ of the later versions. Whether you allocate a
significant amount of time to this, or just accept you'll have a big
lump of effort if/when you change, is a matter for personal choice ...
OK, but being aware of it and having experience using it are two
completely different things, as far as I'm concerned.
It may also be affected by employment. When I was employed, my employer
(a large technology firm) used _mostly_ the second-latest version of
Windows, so I had to be familiar with that; when until about a year ago
I was in the lowest (unpaid) tier of local government here (called
parish council, though has nothing to do with the church), I was issued
with a Windows 10/Outlook/Office 365 laptop, which I used, so was
familiar with the quirks of those.
Yes, good point.
Post by Auric__
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
8 was (initially) horrible.
We completely agree on that. But many other people don't and liked it.
It got a little better with 8.1, but I still hated it.
I think even the original 8 _had_ a conventional desktop, it's just that
it didn't appear by default.
Conventional in a sense, but still very different and much worse than
earlier versions, in my opinion.
Post by Auric__
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably fine for new users; most existing
users stayed with their XP at that point, with a few staying at 7.
Most? I have no statistics, but I doubt it. Certainly some, but I
don't think it was most.
Well, most users aren't like us here, and just take what they're given -
Yes.
Post by Auric__
and almost never upgrade their OS,
Yes.
Post by Auric__
they just buy a new computer. (Though
Yes.
Post by Auric__
this is beginning to change with the 7/8 to 10 and 10 to 11 changes
being automated unless you opted out - but only if the hardware was
suited.)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
Well, for unusual reasons, I had to get a computer earlier this year. I
didn't have a _great_ deal of trouble finding a 7-32 machine (and I'm
still actually enjoying using it: it's responsive, and better in some
respects than my previous 7-32 machine).
Wait a few more years. If your new machine dies, you'll have much more
trouble finding one.
True. I might consider getting one and storing it. But more likely,
would indeed just move on.
Yes, that's my guess. Almost everyone does so, sooner or later.
Post by Auric__
(With consideration of VMs.)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. P. Gilliver
(Do you change your car every 3
years or less, too? [That's a viable approach, just not the one I
follow.])
I don't follow it either. But If I were much richer than I am, I'd
probably do it every year or two. I'd do the same with my computer, so
Going to be shaken up here with the change to electric vehicles; I see
no way they're going to have the infrastructure in place, and I know
My car was just severely damaged in an accident (fortunately just the
car, not me), and I don't yet know whether it wilt be repaired or the
insurance company will deem it a total loss and I'll have to buy a new
one. If I do buy a new car, I'd like to buy an electric one, or at
least a hybrid, but they're too expensive for me, so I'll stick with
gas (petrol). At my age (85), I hope that this will be the last car I
ever need to buy, but who knows. If I have to buy another one in the
future, I hope that electric cars will make more economic sense to me
then.
Post by Auric__
(partly due to the greater distances, but only partly that) that the USA
is nowhere near ready. The dates here are still - no _new_ petrol/diesel
only cars after 2030, no _new_ hybrids after 2035. I can see the
second-hand market - and that for new p/d-only ones just before the
cutoff dates - going crazy.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Your views and mine on this subject are clearly very different. That's
fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything--just pointing out
why I have the views I do.
We're probably not as different as it may seem. I think mine is just a
resentment of the decision being made by others, rather than me. And in
perfectly-well-working kit being made obsolete by changes that _don't_
benefit me.
I understand. I don't disagree with those comments
pyotr filipivich
2023-07-27 19:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]
Post by Auric__
Post by pyotr filipivich
(IOW: MicroSoft is only concerned with their bottom line, and not what
the "customer" might desire.)
Indeed. 10 may very well be the last version I use.
I've heard that said since at least '98, and said it myself for at least
98SE, XP, and now 7.
Thinking back, I can't now _really_ remember what - from the actual user
point of view - made me eventually change. Looking forward, the only
thing I can think of is hardware wearout, combined with the inability to
find old-compatible replacement - but I'm sure I've thought and said
that before.
For me, the issue was the software I needed to use for class was
64 bit, and XP was the 32 bit version. Fastest way to upgrade was new
box.
Then the XP box croaked, and I didn't have the time to fix it.

"Somewhere" I have a Win 95 box.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Auric__
2023-07-28 17:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
For me, the issue was the software I needed to use for class was
64 bit, and XP was the 32 bit version. Fastest way to upgrade was new
box.
Then the XP box croaked, and I didn't have the time to fix it.
My old XP box was an early AMD64 machine. I tried XP64 but didn't really need
it back then, and didn't like the inability to run DOS programs without
emulation.
Post by pyotr filipivich
"Somewhere" I have a Win 95 box.
Mine is in a box, sitting unused. (No hard drive and I don't feel like the
hassle of getting a machine from 1997 working right now.)
--
"Vegetarian" is an old Indian word meaning "I don't hunt so good."
Sailfish
2023-07-26 13:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Sailfish
Some nervousness and re-reading tech sources several times but, in the
end, it worked and was simpler than I'd expected.
I will post how I did it in a separate post once I write it all down for
anyone who might be interested.
I'm on Windows 10, but still interested how to get past their de-support
since Windows 10 support expires in 2 years, and maybe Steam will be
dumping support for Windows 10, too.
Will your current system pass the Firmware compatibility requirements of
Win 11, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_11#Firmware_compatibility

If so, the dual option may be possible.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
VanguardLH
2023-07-24 06:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sailfish
The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will no
longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which Steam
apparently uses.
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4784-4F2B-1321-800A

I don't use any of the features in Steam that require using a web
browser. Other than checking if there is a newer version of a game, and
perhaps checking licenses, I don't online stuff with Steam. No scoring
recording, cloud saves, achievement tracking, socially-needy crap, and
friend messaging (I have no friends in games -- I go solo). I don't
play community games (multi-player), or online/cloud games.

As I recall, you can run Steam in offline mode. I think you got a nag
about going online after a while.

https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-use-steam-offline-mode/

I haven't run Steam for a long time (many months), so I don't know if
I'll see a popup warning about using a pre-Win10 operating system, plus
I'm on Windows 10. Wonder when Steam will drop Windows 10 support which
dies in October 2025. The 22H2 build that I'm on now is supposedly that
last build for Windows 10.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-home-and-pro

Since Steam is tying their support to the Chrome web browser, they could
end support for Win10 before its support ends just because, gee, Google
made yet another change to its proprietary code components.
Sailfish
2023-07-24 19:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Sailfish
The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will no
longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which Steam
apparently uses.
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4784-4F2B-1321-800A
I don't use any of the features in Steam that require using a web
browser. Other than checking if there is a newer version of a game, and
perhaps checking licenses, I don't online stuff with Steam. No scoring
recording, cloud saves, achievement tracking, socially-needy crap, and
friend messaging (I have no friends in games -- I go solo). I don't
play community games (multi-player), or online/cloud games.
As I recall, you can run Steam in offline mode. I think you got a nag
about going online after a while.
https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-use-steam-offline-mode/
I haven't run Steam for a long time (many months), so I don't know if
I'll see a popup warning about using a pre-Win10 operating system, plus
I'm on Windows 10. Wonder when Steam will drop Windows 10 support which
dies in October 2025. The 22H2 build that I'm on now is supposedly that
last build for Windows 10.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-home-and-pro
Since Steam is tying their support to the Chrome web browser, they could
end support for Win10 before its support ends just because, gee, Google
made yet another change to its proprietary code components.
Yes, offline mode works, for now, but there's still the chance they may
have time-bombed them. I do have a few USB3 4-5TB drives I could use to
download them but before I go that route, I'm going to try mirroring my
existing Win7Pro to another hard drive and set up a dual boot option.
Then, I'll upgrade the mirror'd Win7Pro to W10, just in case the offline
method stops working.
--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg
JJ
2023-07-25 09:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Sailfish
The other day I started
Steam and noticed a prominent banner warning that come EOY they will no
longer support Win7 and blame it on Google Chrome desupport which Steam
apparently uses.
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4784-4F2B-1321-800A
I don't use any of the features in Steam that require using a web
browser. Other than checking if there is a newer version of a game, and
perhaps checking licenses, I don't online stuff with Steam. No scoring
recording, cloud saves, achievement tracking, socially-needy crap, and
friend messaging (I have no friends in games -- I go solo). I don't
play community games (multi-player), or online/cloud games.
As I recall, you can run Steam in offline mode. I think you got a nag
about going online after a while.
https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-use-steam-offline-mode/
I haven't run Steam for a long time (many months), so I don't know if
I'll see a popup warning about using a pre-Win10 operating system, plus
I'm on Windows 10. Wonder when Steam will drop Windows 10 support which
dies in October 2025. The 22H2 build that I'm on now is supposedly that
last build for Windows 10.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-home-and-pro
Since Steam is tying their support to the Chrome web browser, they could
end support for Win10 before its support ends just because, gee, Google
made yet another change to its proprietary code components.
How can we download and install free games from Steam store without needing
the Steam application?
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