Discussion:
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
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Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 03:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?

I have someone making signs for me on a vinyl style printer where she says
she can't read in the Microsoft Powerpoint and fonts, even though I've
embedded the entire truetype set (not just what's used in the document) in
the PowerPoint file.

I don't have an Adobe Illustrator to test it out, but can't Illustrator
just read in the PowerPoint file with the fonts?

She says it can't do either, so she has to re-create the sign from a JPEG
which seems pretty ridiculous to me but I don't know the technology at all
since I have never done it.

It's basically two question:
1. Can Adobe Illustrator read in a PowerPoint file from Windows?
2. If yes, can't it get the font out of the embedded font in the PPT file?
VanguardLH
2018-03-29 04:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
Online searches do work. You could do this yourself. See:

https://www.google.com/search?q=adobe%20illustrator%20supported%20file%20formats

which found:

https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/supported-file-formats-illustrator.html

No listing found on a page search for "Powerpoint" or "pps".
Paul
2018-03-29 06:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
https://www.google.com/search?q=adobe%20illustrator%20supported%20file%20formats
https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/supported-file-formats-illustrator.html
No listing found on a page search for "Powerpoint" or "pps".
I see PDF in your list link.

MS PowerPoint --------------> Adobe Illustrator (Open)
Print to PDF

Paul
VanguardLH
2018-03-29 07:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/supported-file-formats-illustrator.html
No listing found on a page search for "Powerpoint" or "pps".
I see PDF in your list link.
MS PowerPoint --------------> Adobe Illustrator (Open)
Print to PDF
Provided the software emulation of a printer that generates a .pdf file
results in a PDF document that is very close to the original Power Point
(.pps) content. I've never bothered using Power Point so I have no
experience what printing to PDF might produce for input from Power Point
to output as PDF. The OP could try to test what results he gets.

If PDF conversion (from Power Point) works well, Illustrator also
supports output to PDF, so there would be no degradation due to further
file format conversion.
Neil
2018-03-29 12:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Paul
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/supported-file-formats-illustrator.html
No listing found on a page search for "Powerpoint" or "pps".
I see PDF in your list link.
MS PowerPoint --------------> Adobe Illustrator (Open)
Print to PDF
Provided the software emulation of a printer that generates a .pdf file
results in a PDF document that is very close to the original Power Point
(.pps) content. I've never bothered using Power Point so I have no
experience what printing to PDF might produce for input from Power Point
to output as PDF. The OP could try to test what results he gets.
If PDF conversion (from Power Point) works well, Illustrator also
supports output to PDF, so there would be no degradation due to further
file format conversion.
None of this really matters. Adobe Illustrator is a vector-based
graphics program, while PowerPoint "collects" files in various formats
to assemble them into a presentation. They're completely different in
almost every regard, so compatibility would be both unlikely and
unnecessary. Having used both programs for decades (since their
creation, in fact), I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is
rather curious and misguided.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 14:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is
rather curious and misguided.
The document exists in PowerPoint so that's a fact and it uses a certain
embedded font, and that's a fact also.

There are two problems, in addition to the rasterization issue, which can't
be gotten around given that the document already exists.

1. The embedded fonts
2. The format

I'm leaning toward printing to PDF with all the embedded fonts, where I
don't see an option to convert PDF to DOC in the Powerpoint help yet.

I can also go WMF which I've never been exposed to, but it looks like an
image format which won't have the embedded font. (Please note that the Mac
handles embedded fonts differently than does Windows so this is a Windows
question separate from a Mac question).
Neil
2018-03-29 14:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
 I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is rather curious and
misguided.
The document exists in PowerPoint so that's a fact and it uses a certain
embedded font, and that's a fact also.
There are two problems, in addition to the rasterization issue, which can't
be gotten around given that the document already exists.
1. The embedded fonts
2. The format
I'm leaning toward printing to PDF with all the embedded fonts, where I
don't see an option to convert PDF to DOC in the Powerpoint help yet.
I can also go WMF which I've never been exposed to, but it looks like an
image format which won't have the embedded font. (Please note that the Mac
handles embedded fonts differently than does Windows so this is a Windows
question separate from a Mac question).
One of the main things that makes a PDF file a truly "Portable Document
Format" is that when fonts and their width tables are embedded in the
file it doesn't matter what platform, OS or compliant printing device
one uses, the results will be the same. That said, there are plenty of
non-compliant PDF creators, devices etc. that screw up a PDF file to the
point where it's all but useless.

Adobe Illustrator is a different matter altogether, since it is not a
PDF editor.
--
best regards,

Neil
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-29 15:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is rather curious and
misguided.
The document exists in PowerPoint so that's a fact and it uses a certain
embedded font, and that's a fact also.
Though Neil might have schrieb what he did more tactfully, I can see
what he's getting at: PowerPoint is a tool for making presentations, and
you're using it to generate input to pass to a sign-maker, for making
unchanging (I assume, since you mentioned vinyl!) signs. I understand
why - PowerPoint isn't _bad_ as a tool for creating graphics, and when
at work, I more than once used it for such purposes. It's a bit like how
a lot of people think "spreadsheet" means "table", or at least they use
a spreadsheet (such as Excel) when all they want is a table. (The
table-generating features of, for example, Word, are a lot more
versatile, if all you want is a table, rather than wanting to do
calculations on the cell contents, or perhaps sorting and similar.)
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
There are two problems, in addition to the rasterization issue, which can't
be gotten around given that the document already exists.
1. The embedded fonts
2. The format
I'm leaning toward printing to PDF with all the embedded fonts, where I
That would have been my first thought, provided the software the
signmaker is using can accept PDF (which others here have suggested it
can).
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
don't see an option to convert PDF to DOC in the Powerpoint help yet.
I _think_ there are utilities that will convert PDF to DOC. You haven't
said _why_ you need to do that - I forget what software you said the
signmaker was using, but it wasn't Word - and certainly, the Powerpoint
help is not where I'd look for how to do that!
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I can also go WMF which I've never been exposed to, but it looks like an
image format which won't have the embedded font. (Please note that the Mac
handles embedded fonts differently than does Windows so this is a Windows
question separate from a Mac question).
(I haven't seen mention of WMF for ages, so can't comment on that!)

I think PDF is going to be the way for you to go. I'm assuming _you_
will be creating the design, and the signmaker won't be modifying it.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The first objective of any tyrant in Whitehall would be to make Parliament
utterly subservient to his will; and the next to overturn or diminish trial by
jury ..." Lord Devlin (http://www.holbornchambers.co.uk)
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 15:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
PowerPoint is a tool for making presentations, and
you're using it to generate input to pass to a sign-maker, for making
unchanging (I assume, since you mentioned vinyl!) signs.
All your observations are reasonable, none of which do I disagree with.

There are literally a hundred signs in the PowerPoint file, which was
edited by multiple people, the first of whom chose Powerpoint - so, while
the final vinyl print is unchanging, the originating document changes (and
have changed multiple times already).
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I understand
why - PowerPoint isn't _bad_ as a tool for creating graphics, and when
at work, I more than once used it for such purposes. It's a bit like how
a lot of people think "spreadsheet" means "table".
Your analogy to "table" is reasonable, and I instantly comprehend the
comparison. If we were to start fresh, knowing that Adobe Illustrator
doesn't read in PowerPoint with embedded truetype fonts, then we would use
a different original format on Windows tghat everyone is already familiar
with.

It's a side question of what format is on Windows that almost everyone is
already is very familiar with and has the tools already on their computer.

BTW, what format would that be (that Adobe Illustrator will take)?

I'm guessing the only format that fits that is PDF with embedded fonts, or,
maybe Microsoft Word, but Word is not a good 'drawing' tool as there is
more to a sign than just the words (e.g., there are borders that all road
signs have).
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'm leaning toward printing to PDF with all the embedded fonts
That would have been my first thought, provided the software the
signmaker is using can accept PDF (which others here have suggested it
can).
Thank you for that suggestion.

I think Windows Adobe Illustrator can accept a PDF with the embedded fonts,
but I don't think the Mac can do that - but that just means the Mac has to
download and install those TrueType fonts, which isn't a big deal since the
TT roadsign font set we used were purposefully in the public domain.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
don't see an option to convert PDF to DOC in the Powerpoint help yet.
I _think_ there are utilities that will convert PDF to DOC. You haven't
said _why_ you need to do that - I forget what software you said the
signmaker was using, but it wasn't Word - and certainly, the Powerpoint
help is not where I'd look for how to do that!
Thank you for your questions.

I'm limited by what formats with fonts Adobe Illustrator will accept.
DOC, PDF, RTF, GIF, TIF, etc., are accepted, but not PowerPoint.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I haven't seen mention of WMF for ages, so can't comment on that!)
Forget WMF. I just saved the Powerpoint to WMF on Office 2007 and the
result was a disaster. Case shut on WMF. Please forget I ever mentioned it.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I think PDF is going to be the way for you to go. I'm assuming _you_
will be creating the design, and the signmaker won't be modifying it.
I appreciate your advice.

A whole bunch of people (almost a score) edited the document as we're
making multiple fixed signs, which is why the original person chose
PowerPoint on Windows or Mac (i.e., almost everyone has it and knows how to
use it and it's a lot easier to make signs with PowerPoint than any other
MS Office tool).
Frank Slootweg
2018-03-29 18:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Ragnusen Ultred <***@ultred.com> wrote:
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'm limited by what formats with fonts Adobe Illustrator will accept.
DOC, PDF, RTF, GIF, TIF, etc., are accepted, but not PowerPoint.
I'm a total noob on this (see my other response), but wouldn't it be
trivial to save the *visible* respresentation which you have - i.e. the
PPT 'slide' on your display - to GIF or TIF (or PDF)?

[...]
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-29 19:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'm limited by what formats with fonts Adobe Illustrator will accept.
DOC, PDF, RTF, GIF, TIF, etc., are accepted, but not PowerPoint.
I'm a total noob on this (see my other response), but wouldn't it be
trivial to save the *visible* respresentation which you have - i.e. the
PPT 'slide' on your display - to GIF or TIF (or PDF)?
[...]
Those are not equivalent. GIF and TIF are raster (or pixel) formats; you
can use sufficient pixels that the result is acceptable (at the expense
of big or even huge files), but it isn't the same thing. A PDF, with
TrueType (or similar technology) fonts, can be zoomed in on indefinitely
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"The wish of the lazy to allow unsupervised access [to the internet] to their
children should not reduce all adults browsing to the level of suitability for
a
five-year-old." Yaman Akdeniz, quoted in Inter//face (The Times, 1999-2-10):
p12
Neil
2018-03-29 20:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'm limited by what formats with fonts Adobe Illustrator will accept.
DOC, PDF, RTF, GIF, TIF, etc., are accepted, but not PowerPoint.
I'm a total noob on this (see my other response), but wouldn't it be
trivial to save the *visible* respresentation which you have - i.e. the
PPT 'slide' on your display - to GIF or TIF (or PDF)?
[...]
Those are not equivalent. GIF and TIF are raster (or pixel) formats; you
can use sufficient pixels that the result is acceptable (at the expense
of big or even huge files), but it isn't the same thing. A PDF, with
TrueType (or similar technology) fonts, can be zoomed in on indefinitely
The only time this is true is when the PDF doesn't contain any raster
graphics. When it does, the same resolution restrictions apply as with
other bitmap formats. Since signage typically has raster images in
addition to text, using the PDF format will have its limitations.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 21:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
The only time this is true is when the PDF doesn't contain any raster
graphics. When it does, the same resolution restrictions apply as with
other bitmap formats. Since signage typically has raster images in
addition to text, using the PDF format will have its limitations.
While the technical difference between "raster" and "vector" graphics is
appreciated, it's sort of like a discussion of gravitational waves knocking
the teacup off the table.

At the size of a typical 18"x24" road sign, with 2-inch letters (which is
the legal requirement), the borders (which all road signs have) are not
jagged in the least.

Here's a zoomed in example, of the small letter "e", in a quick experiment
that I ran today by saving the PowerPoint to PDF with the truetype font
embedded and with the truetype font converted to curves (which is an option
inside of PowerPoint).
http://i.cubeupload.com/3Zbidh.gif

Unless someone who knows can correct me, printing to vinyl, at the size of
two inch letters and half-inch thick borders that are typical of road
signs, isn't the whole "raster versus vector" issue a red herring?
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-29 22:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
The only time this is true is when the PDF doesn't contain any raster
graphics. When it does, the same resolution restrictions apply as with
other bitmap formats. Since signage typically has raster images in
addition to text, using the PDF format will have its limitations.
If the signage includes a raster image, then whatever format is used,
that image will have pixels. They may be too small to be visible, but
the format won't change the principle/
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
While the technical difference between "raster" and "vector" graphics is
appreciated, it's sort of like a discussion of gravitational waves knocking
the teacup off the table.
At the size of a typical 18"x24" road sign, with 2-inch letters (which is
the legal requirement), the borders (which all road signs have) are not
jagged in the least.
1. I don't think the OP said anything about what size sign is involved.
2. The size doesn't determine whether jagged or not - that's determined
by the resolution.
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Unless someone who knows can correct me, printing to vinyl, at the size of
two inch letters and half-inch thick borders that are typical of road
signs, isn't the whole "raster versus vector" issue a red herring?
Probably (as evidenced by the OP saying that the signmaker was accepting
some raster-format input [I forget which). However, in the interests of
what some call "tribal knowledge" (I prefer some other term as I don't
wish to keep it within a "tribe" - how about "wider understanding"), I
thought the distinction between raster and vector was worth mentioning -
especially as someone had said (something like) "why don't you just use
GIF, TIF, or PDF" - in a way that suggested that person thought these
were equivalent and translatable-between, which of course they aren't.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is the civilising influence in this country ... I think it is the most
important institution in this country. - John Humphrys, Radio Times
7-13/06/2003
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 22:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Probably (as evidenced by the OP saying that the signmaker was accepting
some raster-format input [I forget which). However, in the interests of
what some call "tribal knowledge" (I prefer some other term as I don't
wish to keep it within a "tribe" - how about "wider understanding"), I
thought the distinction between raster and vector was worth mentioning -
especially as someone had said (something like) "why don't you just use
GIF, TIF, or PDF" - in a way that suggested that person thought these
were equivalent and translatable-between, which of course they aren't.
I agree totally with your view. This raster/vector distinction is often
important which is why the /best/ format under the circumstances is what
the question is.

So we want the /best/ format we can get directly out of MS Powerpoint. :)

Starting with powerpoint on Windows, and knowing that the output is a black
and white 24x18 sign of the type that most no parking signs are (i.e., text
and borders) and knowing that the shop will accept anything but will be
using Adobe Illustrator, the question is just what output from PowerPoint
is the least expensive in terms of man hours of input into Adobe
Illustrator.
Neil
2018-03-29 23:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
The only time this is true is when the PDF doesn't contain any raster
graphics. When it does, the same resolution restrictions apply as with
other bitmap formats. Since signage typically has raster images in
addition to text, using the PDF format will have its limitations.
While the technical difference between "raster" and "vector" graphics is
appreciated, it's sort of like a discussion of gravitational waves knocking
the teacup off the table.
At the size of a typical 18"x24" road sign, with 2-inch letters (which is
the legal requirement), the borders (which all road signs have) are not
jagged in the least.
Here's a zoomed in example, of the small letter "e", in a quick experiment
that I ran today by saving the PowerPoint to PDF with the truetype font
embedded and with the truetype font converted to curves (which is an option
inside of PowerPoint).
http://i.cubeupload.com/3Zbidh.gif
Unless someone who knows can correct me, printing to vinyl, at the size of
two inch letters and half-inch thick borders that are typical of road
signs, isn't the whole "raster versus vector" issue a red herring?
To be clear, I didn't say that raster versus vector would be relevant to
what you are attempting to do. Small road signs like yours that are
viewed from a distance that would make it possible to use a number of
programs to generate adequate images. However, that does not negate the
point I was making about bitmap resolution and file formats.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 00:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
To be clear, I didn't say that raster versus vector would be relevant to
what you are attempting to do. Small road signs like yours that are
viewed from a distance that would make it possible to use a number of
programs to generate adequate images. However, that does not negate the
point I was making about bitmap resolution and file formats.
Agreed and understood that there certainly are applications where the exact
color and curved shapes would matter greatly.

Luckily, this is only a question about what format can come out of
PowerPoint that has the lowest possible setup in Adobe Illustrator.
Neil
2018-03-30 03:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
To be clear, I didn't say that raster versus vector would be relevant
to what you are attempting to do. Small road signs like yours that are
viewed from a distance that would make it possible to use a number of
programs to generate adequate images. However, that does not negate
the point I was making about bitmap resolution and file formats.
Agreed and understood that there certainly are applications where the exact
color and curved shapes would matter greatly.
Luckily, this is only a question about what format can come out of
PowerPoint that has the lowest possible setup in Adobe Illustrator.
You keep asking about importing a PowerPoint file into Illustrator, but
you don't say why you think that's necessary. It probably isn't. One
more time; Illustrator is not a PDF editor, and PowerPoint is not a
vector graphics program. If you can grasp that, then know that there is
no compatibility between those programs that will save someone time or
effort. Just the opposite, in fact.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 03:48:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
You keep asking about importing a PowerPoint file into Illustrator, but
you don't say why you think that's necessary. It probably isn't. One
more time; Illustrator is not a PDF editor, and PowerPoint is not a
vector graphics program. If you can grasp that, then know that there is
no compatibility between those programs that will save someone time or
effort. Just the opposite, in fact.
I understand your concerns, where I think you think I have more say in the
matter than I do. :)

I must not have been clear, but the document is in PowerPoint, which made
the most sense at the time of creation, because more than a dozen different
people had to work on it, where MS Office is pretty much the only format
that does simple signs that everyone already knows how to use and that they
have the software already installed.

And, I guess I wasn't clear, but the shop is using Adobe Illustrator.
That's not up to me either.

So it's not like I have any choice in the starting point, or in the ending
point.

My job is to keep the costs down given those are the starting points and
ending points, which is no different a job than anyone gets in the real
world there they don't get to determine the starting or ending points.

So the /only/ influence I have, is in how to get from the starting point to
the ending point. As I said many times, the shop doesn't care, but they
also /manually/ do the layout in Adobe Illustrator.

I'm trying to skip /that/ manual layout stage which will save us labor time
as there are scores of slides in the powerpoint, each one being a different
but very similar sign.

In the end, the /only/ format that was suggested that stands a chance of
working is PDF, but nobody seems to have Adobe Illustrator because nobody
has confirmed that PDF will work without needing to manually change the
layout by hand in Adobe Illustrator.

So, really, the only question that needs to be answered, which only someone
who has actually done it can answer, is whether the PDF input that the
Adobe site says it has actually works the way we'd want it to work.

1. Save PPT to PDF
2. Load PDF to AI
3. Print to Vinyl

Is it that easy?

NOTE: Only someone who has actually done it will know the answer.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-30 12:15:03 UTC
Permalink
In message <p9kc36$1jjd$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<***@ultred.com> writes:
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I must not have been clear, but the document is in PowerPoint, which
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
And, I guess I wasn't clear, but the shop is using Adobe Illustrator.
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
So the /only/ influence I have, is in how to get from the starting
point to the ending point. As I said many times, the shop doesn't care,
but they also /manually/ do the layout in Adobe Illustrator.
I'm trying to skip /that/ manual layout stage which will save us labor
time as there are scores of slides in the powerpoint, each one being a
different but very similar sign.
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
So, really, the only question that needs to be answered, which only
someone who has actually done it can answer, is whether the PDF input
that the Adobe site says it has actually works the way we'd want it to
work.
[]
There's another question you need to be asking, and you need to be
asking the shop - unless you already have: regardless of whether
Illustrator _can_ accept input in any format you supply them, are they
_going_ to do a (possibly unnecessary) "manual layout" stage anyway (and
charge you for it)? If they're going to do it anyway, there's no point
in your continuing to go round in circles here. Another way to rephrase
the question: "What format can I give you that will avoid the manual
layout charge?"

Depending on what sort of relationship you have with the shop, such as
will they let you see them working, I'd be taking just the first sign to
them in a variety of formats - I'd suggest PowerPoint, GIF, and
PDF-with-embedded-font - and asking to see them working with them.
Probably PDF first. as I think that's the _most_ likely to be usable
automatically, followed by GIF.

I can see several possibilities, which are more negotiational than
technical:

1. The shop base their business model on _always_ doing - and charging
for - the layout stage.
2. They _could_ avoid the layout stage and use what you supply, but only
_know_ how to use one particular format (and are ashamed to admit that).
3. There _is_ some minor tweak you could do that would help.

All the discussion here has been based on variations of option 3., but
it sounds to _me_ as if you aren't talking to the shop enough, to
establish whether 2. or 1. is the case. I may be completely wrong in
this, of course.

Have they - e. g. in their published price lists (paper or website) -
provided any indication that they ever _don't_ do the manual layout
stage? Them saying "we accept any format" makes me think they treat all
formats the same as they would a paper copy.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G(AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The web is a blank slate; you can't design technology that is 'good'. You can't
design paper that you can only write good things on. There are no good or evil
tools. You can put an engine in an ambulance or a tank. - Sir Tim Berners-Lee,
Radio Times 2009-Jan-30 to -Feb-5.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 18:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
There's another question you need to be asking, and you need to be
asking the shop - unless you already have: regardless of whether
Illustrator _can_ accept input in any format you supply them, are they
_going_ to do a (possibly unnecessary) "manual layout" stage anyway (and
charge you for it)? If they're going to do it anyway, there's no point
in your continuing to go round in circles here. Another way to rephrase
the question: "What format can I give you that will avoid the manual
layout charge?"
Under normal "commercial" circumstances, this would be a fine question, so
I certainly understand that you're making a relevant suggestion.

The problem is personalities are involved, in that this is a community
effort (hence the use of PowerPoint), and the people doing the printing are
actually one of the families of the residents where that question has been
asked and they keep saying "just give it to us in any format".

So, in actuality, the starting and stopping points are out of my control:
1. Start point is PowerPoint
2. Stopping point is Adobe Illustrator

My only question is what format is *most easily* read directly into Adobe
Illustrator given those are the fixed rigid start and stop points.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Depending on what sort of relationship you have with the shop, such as
will they let you see them working, I'd be taking just the first sign to
them in a variety of formats - I'd suggest PowerPoint, GIF, and
PDF-with-embedded-font - and asking to see them working with them.
Probably PDF first. as I think that's the _most_ likely to be usable
automatically, followed by GIF.
I may need to tell you more than you'll want to know, once you figure out
that this whole situation is a "personality mess", in that the "shop" is
essentially the kids of one of the neighbors on this project.

They're not the most responsive of human beings. I would be killed if they
saw me even asking this question on the net but I doubt any of them have
ever heard of the word Usenet.

It's a community project, with personalized signs, on a specific roadway,
where the signs must look "similar" for decor reasons, but they all say
something different at each property, where what they say is up to the
property owners.

So that explains, in more detail than you need to know, why we used
PowerPoint, because we have a group of non-technical property owners who
were all given the same PowerPoint template, and told to simply modify
their one page to their liking.

I was only given the task of assembling the powerpoint slides from each
neighbor into a single document, and then I was told whom to hand it to.

Those people I hand it to are one of the neighbors on the project, so I
don't get to choose what I call the "shop". I just don't.

I did ask them the question, and they did tell me to just give it to them
in any format that I can, where I'm sure they'd take hand-written pieces of
paper given that they don't seem to care what format it's in.

Having explained that, it's really only *me* who is utterly flabbergasted
that they can't just load a file into Adobe Illustrator to minimize the
setup work.

Nobody else is even noticing that it's extremely wasteful to have them do
that, and, for all they care, it doesn't matter.

So, this wasteful manual setup doesn't matter to the shop. It doesn't
matter to the neighbors. It only matters to me.

I can't understand why I can't just give the shop a file that doesn't need
any setup in Adobe Illustrator.

So that's why I'm asking the question of you.

If you have never sucked in a file from PowerPoint into Adobe Illustrator,
you'll never be able to answer the question, because the question is
clearly specific to Adobe Illustrator and Powerpoint.

I realize that's more than you want to know ... but the fact is that this
*is* really a simple question.

Q: What slide format can Powerpoint output that can be sucked directly into
Adobe Illustrator such that there is the least amount of setup required?
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can see several possibilities, which are more negotiational than
I hope my explanation above shows why "negotiation" isn't the problem here
since there will be no negotiation. It's just not possible under the
circumstances of keeping a friendly neighborhood friendly.

It's just *me* who has the problem.
Nobody else even *cares* about the problem.

Not the neighbors.
Not the shop.

It's just me who is flabbergasted that we can't technically hand the shop a
file that they can just use.

That technical concept boggles my mind.
Hence my question.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
1. The shop base their business model on _always_ doing - and charging
for - the layout stage.
2. They _could_ avoid the layout stage and use what you supply, but only
_know_ how to use one particular format (and are ashamed to admit that).
3. There _is_ some minor tweak you could do that would help.
I actually suspect the shop is incompetent, but that's again completely out
of my control. I don't get to choose the shop.

The only thing I get to choose is what format file I give to the shop.

I can't tell the shop what to do unless I know myself that there is a file
format that powerpoint can output that can *directly* be used by Adobe
Illustrator without any need for manual setup.

I just can't.
I need to be armed with that information *before* I tell the shop anything
of how they should do their business.

There are two dilemmas here, only one of which I can solve.
1. There is a personality dilemma, which I can not solve and I'm not
attempting to solve and which is outside the scope of this newsgroup.
2. There is a simple technical dilemma here, which nobody can solve unless
they've actually done it - because it requires proof of concept, which is
what format can PowerPoint output that Adobe Illustrator can directly use
to print a typical "no parking" style sign.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
All the discussion here has been based on variations of option 3., but
it sounds to _me_ as if you aren't talking to the shop enough, to
establish whether 2. or 1. is the case. I may be completely wrong in
this, of course.
You are astute in that the real personal problem is our relationship with
the shop, but that's *not* at all the question here.

The question here is simply a technical question, which is outside the
scope of *any* particular shop.

The technical question is actually pretty simple, but it can only be
answered by someone who has done it, since we all know that file format
conversions suck for the most part, since we're all in our 60s, 70s, and
80s, and we've seen the simplest things fail many times.

The answer to the technical question is all that I seek here.
I do not seek any solution to the personality problem at the shop.
I just can't solve that problem anyway.

The best I can do is tell the shop to suck in format X, and to *directly*
print that format X to the vinyl sheet.

If that technical solution doesn't work - I'm dead.

So I don't want to tell the shop to use it until I know that it actually
works.

Really ... this is just a simple technical question where all your concerns
are perfectly valid if I was making the decisions. But I'm not.

My only role in this endeavor is to assemble the individual signs and then
provide them to the shop.

I just can't fathom why they have to do manual work, so I'd like to know
what to *tell* them to do - but if I'm not right - they'll kill me.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Have they - e. g. in their published price lists (paper or website) -
provided any indication that they ever _don't_ do the manual layout
stage? Them saying "we accept any format" makes me think they treat all
formats the same as they would a paper copy.
I don't think the shop cares about anything, and neither do the neighbors
who are footing the bill together.

It's not really a bill thing, in the end, to me ... but more of a shameful
waste.

The engineer in me *hates* to see people doing anything *manual* when all
we're doing is printing signs to vinyl sheets.

Nobody else on this project even cares about the manual layout.
So of course, the simplest social answer is to just give up.
And I did just give up (on the original set of signs).

But the technical engineer in me is just appalled that any *manual* setup
is required. It's just appalling. What the heck does Adobe Illustrator do
if it can't suck in a file and print it?

Anyway, that's really far more than you want to know, but I have to stop
dancing around the social issue so I said it bluntly (and if any of them
ever get on the Usenet, they'll kill me for telling you all that).

*In the end, there is only one simple technical question being asked:*

Q: What format can PPT output that AI can suck in directly to print
no-parking-style signs to vinyl with the *least* amount of manual setup
required?
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-31 01:35:14 UTC
Permalink
In message <p9lu97$ds1$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<***@ultred.com> writes:
[LOTS snipped]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
*In the end, there is only one simple technical question being asked:*
Q: What format can PPT output that AI can suck in directly to print
no-parking-style signs to vinyl with the *least* amount of manual setup
required?
Yes, but the simple question - whether "technical" or "social" is fairly
immaterial - "is there _any_ format I can give you that will avoid you
having to do the 'manual layout' stage, or are you going to do that
anyway?" _does_ need asking of the "shop", and I can't see how any
complications of what your relationship with them is should prevent you
asking it. Or, perhaps more simply, "Do you ever _not_ charge for the
'manual layout' stage?" Yes, that's probably a simpler question to ask.

You mentioned that on a previous occasion you were _surprised_ (and I
think a little cross) that they'd charged you for that stage. This
_implied_ that there might be circumstances when they might not, or that
you had _thought_ there were. This needs clarifying before
we/you/they/whoever get into _any_ *technical* discussions.

_Please_ keep your answer short (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that
may never be questioned.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 04:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yes, but the simple question - whether "technical" or "social" is fairly
immaterial - "is there _any_ format I can give you that will avoid you
having to do the 'manual layout' stage, or are you going to do that
anyway?" _does_ need asking of the "shop", and I can't see how any
complications of what your relationship with them is should prevent you
asking it. Or, perhaps more simply, "Do you ever _not_ charge for the
'manual layout' stage?" Yes, that's probably a simpler question to ask.
You mentioned that on a previous occasion you were _surprised_ (and I
think a little cross) that they'd charged you for that stage. This
_implied_ that there might be circumstances when they might not, or that
you had _thought_ there were. This needs clarifying before
we/you/they/whoever get into _any_ *technical* discussions.
Up until now, I didn't have the software, but Paul provided a link to the
software, so now, for the first time, I can /test/ out the answer.

TEST 1:
I install the free Adobe Illustrator on Windows and I suck in the 12"x18"
PDF from PowerPoint with embedded fonts, and I run the AI CutContour
command plus any other manual layout commands that are forced upon me, and
I output an Adobe Illustrator AI file for each of the score of signs.

TEST 2:
I then try to find out whether *that* Windows AI file can be read directly
into the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator, which I've asked separately here.
Can the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator read in Windows Adobe Illustrator CS2 "ai-format" files?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.apps/xiJFl-xbD1o>

--
Was that short enough, and yet still detailed enough to be correct?
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-31 09:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yes, but the simple question - whether "technical" or "social" is
fairly immaterial - "is there _any_ format I can give you that will
avoid you having to do the 'manual layout' stage, or are you going to
do that anyway?" _does_ need asking of the "shop", and I can't see
how any complications of what your relationship with them is should
prevent you asking it. Or, perhaps more simply, "Do you ever _not_
charge for the 'manual layout' stage?" Yes, that's probably a simpler
question to ask.
You mentioned that on a previous occasion you were _surprised_ (and
I think a little cross) that they'd charged you for that stage. This
_implied_ that there might be circumstances when they might not, or
that you had _thought_ there were. This needs clarifying before
we/you/they/whoever get into _any_ *technical* discussions.
Up until now, I didn't have the software, but Paul provided a link to the
software, so now, for the first time, I can /test/ out the answer.
I install the free Adobe Illustrator on Windows and I suck in the 12"x18"
PDF from PowerPoint with embedded fonts, and I run the AI CutContour
command plus any other manual layout commands that are forced upon me, and
I output an Adobe Illustrator AI file for each of the score of signs.
I then try to find out whether *that* Windows AI file can be read directly
into the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator, which I've asked separately here.
Can the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator read in Windows Adobe Illustrator CS2 "ai-format" files?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.apps/xiJFl-xbD1o>
--
Was that short enough, and yet still detailed enough to be correct?
You've missed the point. Which is that you need to establish whether
they're going to do the layout stage whatever format you give them, and
charge you for it - or to put it more simply, whether they ever _don't_
charge for that stage (whether needed or not). NOT really a technical
question. If the answer is that they always charge for it regardless of
what they're given, then there's no point in wasting any more of
anyone's time - certainly not ours. And I _don't_ see why the nature of
your relationship with them should affect whether you can ask that
question; certainly if you can't, I'm not going to bother with this
thread any more.

So:
1. Can you ask that question ("do you ever not charge for layout")?
2. *and only if the answer to 1. is yes* "under what circumstance?"

When we know the answers to these, _then_ we can proceed.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

one can't go from `supposed crackpot ideas have been right before' to `we
should
take this latest crackpot idea onboard without making it fight for acceptance
like all the previous ones'. - Richard Caley, 2002 February 11 00:02:28
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 15:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
You've missed the point. Which is that you need to establish whether
they're going to do the layout stage whatever format you give them, and
charge you for it - or to put it more simply, whether they ever _don't_
charge for that stage (whether needed or not).
I understand your concern, and your objections, and your clarification,
where the /simplest/ way I can say this is that, because of personalities,
asking the shop /anything/ is an exercise in futility.

What I need to do is /understand/ first what /needs/ to be done. Period.

Once I run through the process, I will then /understand/ why /any/ manual
layout would need to be done.

Shop or no shop - that /understanding/ should transcend any shop.

It's really that simple.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
NOT really a technical
question. If the answer is that they always charge for it regardless of
what they're given, then there's no point in wasting any more of
anyone's time - certainly not ours.
The /simplest/ way I can say this is to *ignore* the shop completely.

*All that matters is what /must/ be done to get the PPT to VINYL.*

If I knew that, I wouldn't be here.

With the software, I will figure that out on my own, and then this thread
will have solved the problem set completely.

The problem you want me to explain is the mentality of kids, which I am not
qualified to do, since that takes a child psychologist to understand why
the kids in the shop don't care one whit about automation.

They just do /everything/ manually.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
And I _don't_ see why the nature of
your relationship with them should affect whether you can ask that
question; certainly if you can't, I'm not going to bother with this
thread any more.
I think the simplest solution is to ignore the shop.

I can tell you that the shop isn't at all concerned with this problem.
They'll take anything.
They don't care.
They will take scrawlings on the back side of a napkin.

They are just kids.
They can barely communicate as it is.

The issue is just that I don't /understand/ why they can't just print it,
and they /insist/ they have to lay it out manually for each sign.

I think that's crazy.
Nobody else thinks that is crazy.

So it's just me, asking /why/ they have to manually do anything.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
1. Can you ask that question ("do you ever not charge for layout")?
2. *and only if the answer to 1. is yes* "under what circumstance?"
When we know the answers to these, _then_ we can proceed.
I do understand that you consider this a 'normal' commercial action, but
we're dealing 100% with high-school kids who don't have the concept of
efficiency.

It's like my old secretary (admins nowadays) who would do everything
manually. She's make a change to a spreadsheet a thousand times, where it
never occurred to her to write a macro.

It's exactly like that.
The people doing the work don't have the /concept/ of efficiency.

If we remove the kids from the equation, all we need to do is /understand/
why /anyone/ would need to do /anything/ manual in this process.

Just like with the secretary, for whom I would write a script to do
automatically what she did manually a thousand times, I need to first
understand what steps need to be done manually, and then I'll eliminate
those manual steps.

I can't tell the secretary how to eliminate the steps.
I have to eliminate them for her.
And then I tell her how to do the job using the macro,.

Same here.
The kids will /never/ not do everything manually unless I show them how.
It's just not in their bones.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-04-01 00:42:30 UTC
Permalink
In message <p9o8bv$1ptt$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<***@ultred.com> writes:
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
The kids will /never/ not do everything manually unless I show them how.
It's just not in their bones.
So, the answer to my question is: they will always do the manual stage,
whatever you give them.

But you _might_ be able to persuade them not to if you can _show_ them.

I don't think we need to discuss any more until you've:

1. Had a play with the Adobe Illustrator you've downloaded;
2. determined whether you think you can skip the "manual layout stage"
(this implies
1a. understood what they _mean_ by "the manual layout stage";)
3. (if 2 is "yes") persuaded them to let you show them.

(Where "they" is "the shop" or "the kids" or whatever.)

Can we take a break until you've done these 3 (or 4)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

They don't seem to want to blind me with science nor to impress me with their
superior intellect, but just to share their enthusiasm for their subject.
(Appreciative) contributor to Radio Times letters page, 26 July-1 August 2014
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-01 13:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Am Sun, 1 Apr 2018 01:42:30 +0100, schrieb J. P. Gilliver (John):


Hi John,
I already told Neil it was my last post until I have something to report,
so I'm just responding to your questions, and then I will back out until I
have the process figured out based on what Paul already explained.

(Basically Paul already did what I need to do, but the software downloads
keep crapping out - I'm on an extremely slow over-the-air link.)
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
So, the answer to my question is: they will always do the manual stage,
whatever you give them.
I think the answer to that is "no", but I'm not a psychologist, so, I'd say
that your assumption they'll lay it out every time is accurate ... unless
... unless ... unless, like with my secretary long ago ... I show them how
to do it manually.

Just as with the secretary, once I wrote the macro, she was happy to *use*
that macro, she would never have written the macro on her own.

So, while I admit I'm not a teen psychologist, I "think" the teens will
*use* whatever I tell them to use, if it works for them. (If it doesn't
work, they won't use it and they'll fall back to their old ways.)

Again, your observation is reasonable even though I disagree since nobody
knows what someone else will do when shown a 'better' way, but nothing will
change, for sure, ... unless ... unless I show them a better way.

I can't show them that better way until I understand it myself.
And, for that, I have to do what Paul did - so - I won't add any value here
until I do that - so I'm just answering your concerns.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
But you _might_ be able to persuade them not to if you can _show_ them.
Oh, Yes. (I respond inline.) You do understand very well, John. Thanks.
Yes. If I show them the light, I *hope* to persuade them.

It just boggles my mind that anyone would do layout when the layout is
already done.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
1. Had a play with the Adobe Illustrator you've downloaded;
2. determined whether you think you can skip the "manual layout stage"
(this implies
1a. understood what they _mean_ by "the manual layout stage";)
3. (if 2 is "yes") persuaded them to let you show them.
(Where "they" is "the shop" or "the kids" or whatever.)
Can we take a break until you've done these 3 (or 4)?
Yes. Good idea. I ran the download a couple of times and it keeps timing
out, so, I don't know if that techspot site is just crap or if it's my
admittedly slow over-the-air connection, but I'm trying again to get the
software.

Thank you for always adding value.
*I won't post back until/unless I get something to post back.*
--
(However, if someone asks a direct question like you did ... I will answer
their questions out of courtesy.)
Char Jackson
2018-04-01 15:15:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 06:43:19 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I ran the download a couple of times and it keeps timing
out, so, I don't know if that techspot site is just crap or if it's my
admittedly slow over-the-air connection, but I'm trying again to get the
software.
Back when more of us were on slow connections, programs like Free
Download Manager were essential. Everyone had a download manager, and
that one was, by far, the most popular since it was free. I just checked
and I see that it's still actively being developed and they've added all
but the kitchen sink, but its ability to "resume broken downloads" was
incredibly useful back in the day.

https://www.freedownloadmanager.org
Paul
2018-04-01 17:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 06:43:19 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I ran the download a couple of times and it keeps timing
out, so, I don't know if that techspot site is just crap or if it's my
admittedly slow over-the-air connection, but I'm trying again to get the
software.
Back when more of us were on slow connections, programs like Free
Download Manager were essential. Everyone had a download manager, and
that one was, by far, the most popular since it was free. I just checked
and I see that it's still actively being developed and they've added all
but the kitchen sink, but its ability to "resume broken downloads" was
incredibly useful back in the day.
https://www.freedownloadmanager.org
This is a special case though.

He needs to load "about:blank" or the nearest equivalent, into
the main browser window, while the download runs in the download
dialog (i.e. after the download has started). There is some
heavy-weight Javascript in the main page, which actually manages
to interfere with the download a tiny bit.

None of my downloads timed out, but I did need to
"optimize a little bit", for best performance.

The download server in this case, starts out at 100% link, and
drops to around 60% later in the download.

Size: 375638402 bytes (358 MB)
SHA1: 1538166046E59DB6098F75C3196E84AD9310DEA1

Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA1: D06911267603474B43F3F39E4B00029787173962

Size: 346373903 bytes (330 MB)
SHA1: 54BA48723D657E4A86903ED2C876381488C8F945

Size: 431237012 bytes (411 MB)
SHA1: 1C6CC05D49244ED1417B3E2C3136D4FD0B7F57E0

Paul
Char Jackson
2018-04-01 19:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 06:43:19 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I ran the download a couple of times and it keeps timing
out, so, I don't know if that techspot site is just crap or if it's my
admittedly slow over-the-air connection, but I'm trying again to get the
software.
Back when more of us were on slow connections, programs like Free
Download Manager were essential. Everyone had a download manager, and
that one was, by far, the most popular since it was free. I just checked
and I see that it's still actively being developed and they've added all
but the kitchen sink, but its ability to "resume broken downloads" was
incredibly useful back in the day.
https://www.freedownloadmanager.org
This is a special case though.
He needs to load "about:blank" or the nearest equivalent, into
the main browser window, while the download runs in the download
dialog (i.e. after the download has started). There is some
heavy-weight Javascript in the main page, which actually manages
to interfere with the download a tiny bit.
Sorry, Paul, I'm not following you. Maybe this will help.

A download manager (DM) works by splitting the download into smaller,
more manageable, pieces. Each piece is an entirely separate download. If
any piece stalls and times out or otherwise fails, it is automatically
retried by the DM. Once all of the pieces have been successfully
downloaded, the pieces are reassembled and saved to the filesystem.

The two caveats are that the download source needs to support 'ranged'
downloads, and it needs to support 'resumed' downloads. Most download
sources support both of those things.

The concept has a few things in common with torrents, but the source
location is a single location rather than multiple different locations.
Paul
2018-04-01 20:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 06:43:19 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I ran the download a couple of times and it keeps timing
out, so, I don't know if that techspot site is just crap or if it's my
admittedly slow over-the-air connection, but I'm trying again to get the
software.
Back when more of us were on slow connections, programs like Free
Download Manager were essential. Everyone had a download manager, and
that one was, by far, the most popular since it was free. I just checked
and I see that it's still actively being developed and they've added all
but the kitchen sink, but its ability to "resume broken downloads" was
incredibly useful back in the day.
https://www.freedownloadmanager.org
This is a special case though.
He needs to load "about:blank" or the nearest equivalent, into
the main browser window, while the download runs in the download
dialog (i.e. after the download has started). There is some
heavy-weight Javascript in the main page, which actually manages
to interfere with the download a tiny bit.
Sorry, Paul, I'm not following you. Maybe this will help.
A download manager (DM) works by splitting the download into smaller,
more manageable, pieces. Each piece is an entirely separate download. If
any piece stalls and times out or otherwise fails, it is automatically
retried by the DM. Once all of the pieces have been successfully
downloaded, the pieces are reassembled and saved to the filesystem.
The two caveats are that the download source needs to support 'ranged'
downloads, and it needs to support 'resumed' downloads. Most download
sources support both of those things.
The concept has a few things in common with torrents, but the source
location is a single location rather than multiple different locations.
I'm commenting on how the opened web page, interacted with the
download happening at the time.

I don't know (and didn't test) whether the download links were
dynamic and locked to the browser in any way. As a means to
enforce an advertising scheme perhaps. It would be "bad" web
design, to just leave static web links out there, for people
to circulate to one another, without some means to
squeeze a few ad views in there.

What I was noticing was, that as the download progressed, any time
the techspot webpage attempted to auto-update (to present advertising),
it seemed to do something to the download rate. And some of the
effect could be removed, just by "parking" the page. I chose to do
the four downloads, one at a time, because I could see the
download was a bit "nervous looking".

Sure, I've used downloader tools, for cases where a server
has a "cap", or the download keeps dropping and a "reliable" (resume-able)
downloader is called for. My experience with that site wasn't
that bad, that I even contemplated such. But I did end up playing
with the web page a bit during the downloads, because it was
behaving a bit badly.

Resume-able downloads don't always work. I tried Netscape 4.76
against a Microsoft server, where Netscape was an early example
of byte-range downloading. And when used against a balky
Microsoft server, the output file ended up *larger*
than what it was supposed to be. The two ends have to behave
themselves, for a resume-able download to work. That's the
same Microsoft site that truncated downloads, and both
ends of the link seemed to think the download actually
completed with a zero status.

This isn't the most miserable download site I've ever used.
Not even close. I didn't need heavy artillery.

Paul
Char Jackson
2018-04-01 21:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 06:43:19 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I ran the download a couple of times and it keeps timing
out, so, I don't know if that techspot site is just crap or if it's my
admittedly slow over-the-air connection, but I'm trying again to get the
software.
Back when more of us were on slow connections, programs like Free
Download Manager were essential. Everyone had a download manager, and
that one was, by far, the most popular since it was free. I just checked
and I see that it's still actively being developed and they've added all
but the kitchen sink, but its ability to "resume broken downloads" was
incredibly useful back in the day.
https://www.freedownloadmanager.org
This is a special case though.
He needs to load "about:blank" or the nearest equivalent, into
the main browser window, while the download runs in the download
dialog (i.e. after the download has started). There is some
heavy-weight Javascript in the main page, which actually manages
to interfere with the download a tiny bit.
Sorry, Paul, I'm not following you. Maybe this will help.
A download manager (DM) works by splitting the download into smaller,
more manageable, pieces. Each piece is an entirely separate download. If
any piece stalls and times out or otherwise fails, it is automatically
retried by the DM. Once all of the pieces have been successfully
downloaded, the pieces are reassembled and saved to the filesystem.
The two caveats are that the download source needs to support 'ranged'
downloads, and it needs to support 'resumed' downloads. Most download
sources support both of those things.
The concept has a few things in common with torrents, but the source
location is a single location rather than multiple different locations.
I'm commenting on how the opened web page, interacted with the
download happening at the time.
OK, no worries. I only wanted to point out that folks with slow or
unreliable Internet connections can likely use a download manager to
overcome the related difficulties.

I'm still not sure what you're exactly saying, but that's OK.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-01 22:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
OK, no worries. I only wanted to point out that folks with slow or
unreliable Internet connections can likely use a download manager to
overcome the related difficulties.
I'm still not sure what you're exactly saying, but that's OK.
This is for Paul, where I simply documented what I did, and it still kept
asking for CD 2, which doesn't exist (it's all on the hard drive).

Paul ... here's what I did.

I'll continue to debug ...and try things out ... but, as you said, there's
a trick to installing it, where the instructions that come with it assume
you actually have a CDROM in the optical disc drive.

Paul: What did I do wrong?

1. Download the 4 files from:
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe
Size: 375638402 bytes (358 MB)
SHA256: 36DACE2549BDE94D7A45281380EEF453FD2AF38EDA19348FA3DE567549A696EC
SHA1: 1538166046E59DB6098F75C3196E84AD9310DEA1
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA256: 5862668CA45C0196777D3D4E2108D0A6F0750F6965769CB5730944D3520DBB54
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA1: D06911267603474B43F3F39E4B00029787173962
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe
Size: 346373903 bytes (330 MB)
SHA256: C662F1C431FAA33160523545FDA3BD58F29ED3616CB8E6D1835CCE810AD5AB30
SHA1: 54BA48723D657E4A86903ED2C876381488C8F945
-----
Name: CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe
Size: 431237012 bytes (411 MB)
SHA256: 921402DA55BFEF5E6E21DE2261F725FFE0A451153F453000FB3152635E1161BE
SHA1: 1C6CC05D49244ED1417B3E2C3136D4FD0B7F57E0

2. Unpack by right clicking & selecting 7Zip unpack to (choose the
default):
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Read Me First.html
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
-----
CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Documentation\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Goodies\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Technical Information\.

3. Combine all files and directories into a single directory:
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Documentation\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Goodies\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Read Me First.html
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Technical Information\.

4. Run the installer (I ran on Windows 10 1709 Creator's Edition):
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Setup.exe

5. You'll get a warning that "QuickTime 6 is required to use the
multimedia features in the Adobe Creative Suite 2", which you
can ignore.

6. Then it will require a Name (default = "Windows User") & serial number.
Name: Windows user
Company: blank
Serial Number 1130 1414 7569 4457 6613 5551

7. It will default to C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe
It says it will use up 2.62GB
I put mine in C:\app\editor\pic\cs2

8. There will be a choice of what components to install:
[x] Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
[x] Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
[x] Adobe Photoshop CS2 and Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
[x] Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)

9. It will start installing and then ask:
"Please insert CD 2 to continue installation"
where if you hit the "OK" button, it will ask forever
for that CD 2.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-01 23:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Paul: What did I do wrong?
Well, only with computers can you repeatedly do the same thing, and expect
a different result!

Here's where I am, Paul, where I would say I'm "mostly" successful in
installing the tools. Two of the tools still require "CD 2" so there must
be a trick, but luckily, the Adobe Illustrator that I want does not seem to
require CD 2.

Nonetheless, here's a log file so that someone who knows more than I do who
is on this newsgroup can help us figure out how to get rid of the CD 2
error below, so that /everyone/ can benefit from this quick setup tutorial.

NOTE: All my setup tutorials have full paths so you'd likely want to change
your paths as you see fit.

1. Download the 4 files from:
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe
Size: 375638402 bytes (358 MB)
SHA256: 36DACE2549BDE94D7A45281380EEF453FD2AF38EDA19348FA3DE567549A696EC
SHA1: 1538166046E59DB6098F75C3196E84AD9310DEA1
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA256: 5862668CA45C0196777D3D4E2108D0A6F0750F6965769CB5730944D3520DBB54
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA1: D06911267603474B43F3F39E4B00029787173962
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe
Size: 346373903 bytes (330 MB)
SHA256: C662F1C431FAA33160523545FDA3BD58F29ED3616CB8E6D1835CCE810AD5AB30
SHA1: 54BA48723D657E4A86903ED2C876381488C8F945
-----
Name: CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe
Size: 431237012 bytes (411 MB)
SHA256: 921402DA55BFEF5E6E21DE2261F725FFE0A451153F453000FB3152635E1161BE
SHA1: 1C6CC05D49244ED1417B3E2C3136D4FD0B7F57E0

2. Unpack by right clicking & selecting 7Zip unpack to (choose the
default):
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Read Me First.html
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
-----
CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Documentation\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Goodies\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Technical Information\.

3. Combine all files and directories into a single directory:
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Documentation\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Goodies\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Read Me First.html
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Technical Information\.

4. Run the installer (I ran on Windows 10 1709 Creator's Edition):
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Setup.exe

5. You'll get a warning that "QuickTime 6 is required to use the
multimedia features in the Adobe Creative Suite 2", which you
can ignore.

6. Then it will require a Name (default = "Windows User") & serial number.
Name: Windows user
Company: blank
Serial Number 1130 1414 7569 4457 6613 5551

7. It will default to C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe
It says it will use up 2.62GB
I put mine in C:\app\editor\pic\cs2

8. There will be a choice of what components to install:
[x] Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
[x] Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
[x] Adobe Photoshop CS2 and Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
[x] Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)

9. It will start installing and then ask:
"Please insert CD 2 to continue installation"
where if you hit the "OK" button, it will ask forever
for that CD 2.

Note: It seems to have installed Photoshop though, but nothing else.

10. So I hit cancel, and then ran the Setup.exe again.
Up pops an option to "Change/Remove the Adobe Creative Suite 2"
with the two options:
(_) Install, Re-install, or Uninstall Individual Adobe CS2 Components
(o) Uninstall all Adobe Creative Suite 2 Components

So I switch that default to:
(0) Install, Re-install, or Uninstall Individual Adobe CS2 Components
(_) Uninstall all Adobe Creative Suite 2 Components

11. This time a form came up to "Change Individual Components", saying:
Please select the components of the Adobe Creative Suite 2 to modify.
Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
[No Change - Not Installed] or [Install]
Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
[No Change - Not Installed] or [Install]
Adobe Photoshop CS2 & Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
[No Change - Installed] or [Uninstall] or [Re-Install]
Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)
[No Change - Not Installed] or [Install]
Where the first item in the list is the default.

12. I changed the Adobe Illustrator CS2 to "Install" & hit Next
and waited for it to display a "Finish" button, which I hit
and the installation GUI went away.

13. So I ran the Setup.exe again.
Up pops an option to "Change/Remove the Adobe Creative Suite 2"
with the two options:
(_) Install, Re-install, or Uninstall Individual Adobe CS2 Components
(o) Uninstall all Adobe Creative Suite 2 Components

So I switch that default to:
(0) Install, Re-install, or Uninstall Individual Adobe CS2 Components
(_) Uninstall all Adobe Creative Suite 2 Components

14. Now the "Change Individual Components" form says:
Please select the components of the Adobe Creative Suite 2 to modify.
Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
[No Change - Installed] or [Uninstall] or [Re-Install]
Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
[No Change - Not Installed] or [Install]
Adobe Photoshop CS2 & Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
[No Change - Installed] or [Uninstall] or [Re-Install]
Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)
[No Change - Not Installed] or [Install]
Where the first item in the list is the default.

15. This time I selected both the remaining tools to install and hit Next.
Drat.
It asked for CD 2 and wouldn't take anything else for an answer.
So I had to quit.

16. So I ran the Setup.exe again and only selected one product to install.
Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
But it asked for CD 2 so I killed that.

17. So I ran the Setup.exe again and only selected one product to install.
Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)
But it asked for CD 2 so I killed that.

18. Giving up on the entire suite, I then looked to see what was installed.
C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\.
Adobe Bridge\.
Adobe Creative Suite 2\.
Adobe Help Center\.
Adobe Illustrator CS2\.
Adobe Photoshop CS2\.
Adobe Stock Photos \.

19. I guess the executables of interest are:
C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Adobe Illustrator CS2.lnk
Right clicking on the shortcut to select properties shows:
Target: "C:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Support
Files\Contents\Windows\Illustrator.exe
Open In: "c:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Support
Files\Contents\Windows\"
C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\Adobe Photoshop CS2\Photoshop.exe
C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\Adobe Bridge\Bridge.exe

20. Creating a shortcut to the Photoshop executable and running it
pops up Photoshop version 9.0 and a voluntary registration form
and then automatically checks for updates.

Photoshop, which I've never used, appears to be working.

21. Running the Adobe Illustrator shortcut seems to run Adobe Illustrator
version 12.0.0 and it doesn't ask for registration (probably because
the first executable you run is what asks).

Illustrator, which I've never used, appears to be working.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 01:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Illustrator, which I've never used, appears to be working.
Moving on, I had a small stumbling block with the concept of how Fonts are
used *differently* in Windows versus in PowerPoint versus in Adobe
Illustrator, where there's a separate quick-question thread on that here:
*Quick question how additional FONTS work in Windows*
<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103550>

The question is almost completely answered, at least with respect to file
formats.

Q1: Can Win10 Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint with fonts?
A1: Yes, but not directly. It takes a multi-step method. But it works.

Since the goal is always to solve the problem and then leverage the answer
to everyone now and in the future, here's a quick summary of the steps
which, mostly Paul suggested, along with John and Neil and others.

1. Obtain & install the MS Office 2007 "Save as PDF or XPS" utility.
2. Obtain & install the "Roadgeek 2005 Series B" font set into the default
Windows Font folder.
3. Obtain & install the Windows Adobe Illustrator 12.0.0 tool set.
4. Save the PowerPoint file to PDF with the entire font set embedded.
5. Attempt to read the PowerPoint directly into AI - it will fail.
6. Attempt to read the PDF into AI - fonts will fail - but keep going.
7. In AI, switch the default font to Roadgeek now in the system folder.
8. In Adobe Illustrator, save the file as a Windows "ai" format file.
Loading Image...

I think what's left now is to move forward to the "printing" to vinyl part,
which Paul covered, but I don't think anyone else here has yet given any
hints other than Paul on how to do that. (Maybe Neil knows?)

So here are my next steps to flesh out.

Q: What are the next steps to print to vinyl (where Paul already discussed
the "cutContour" sequence so I just need to flesh that out a bit on my
own), and,

Q: Will the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator read in that Windows AI file?
(chances are that it will, but it will take a simple test to figure it
out).
Paul
2018-04-02 03:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Illustrator, which I've never used, appears to be working.
Moving on, I had a small stumbling block with the concept of how Fonts
are used *differently* in Windows versus in PowerPoint versus in Adobe
*Quick question how additional FONTS work in Windows*
<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103550>
The question is almost completely answered, at least with respect to
file formats.
Q1: Can Win10 Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint with fonts?
A1: Yes, but not directly. It takes a multi-step method. But it works.
Since the goal is always to solve the problem and then leverage the
answer to everyone now and in the future, here's a quick summary of the
steps which, mostly Paul suggested, along with John and Neil and others.
1. Obtain & install the MS Office 2007 "Save as PDF or XPS" utility.
2. Obtain & install the "Roadgeek 2005 Series B" font set into the
default Windows Font folder.
3. Obtain & install the Windows Adobe Illustrator 12.0.0 tool set.
4. Save the PowerPoint file to PDF with the entire font set embedded.
5. Attempt to read the PowerPoint directly into AI - it will fail.
6. Attempt to read the PDF into AI - fonts will fail - but keep going.
7. In AI, switch the default font to Roadgeek now in the system folder.
8. In Adobe Illustrator, save the file as a Windows "ai" format file.
http://i.cubeupload.com/20nlCB.gif
I think what's left now is to move forward to the "printing" to vinyl
part, which Paul covered, but I don't think anyone else here has yet
given any hints other than Paul on how to do that. (Maybe Neil knows?)
So here are my next steps to flesh out.
Q: What are the next steps to print to vinyl (where Paul already
discussed the "cutContour" sequence so I just need to flesh that out a
bit on my own), and,
Q: Will the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator read in that Windows AI file?
(chances are that it will, but it will take a simple test to figure it
out).
I don't see a reason Adobe Illustrator couldn't embed a font.

Fonts can be copied two ways. Perhaps at some point in the past,
entire chunks of font were put in documents. But the files I've
looked at more recently, sometimes you can find a sparse table
with only five characters in it. I've examined some of these
with Fontographer (I think that's the name).

If you open a document with a very sparse (subset) font like that, it
doesn't even have all the letters of the alphabet. This can
cause the tool that only has access to that subset, to refuse
to allow text editing. Because as soon as you insert a character
for which the font table has no entry, the tool can't put anything
up on the screen.

Now, Adobe made a tool to solve that. It was something like Adobe
Type Manager, and it had a generic Sans and Serif font, which
could be used to approximate just about every other font. All that
was needed, was some sort of geometry info, to make approximations.

A file of that nature, exists today in Windows, but I don't know
how it is used. It might be ATMfd (Adobe Type Manager Font Driver)
or similar. But that's probably not sitting there making ugly
looking fonts out a Sans and Serif font. That might be a parser
for TTF or something.

I already drew a diagram with my best guess how this would
work. If you open a document and make any changes at all to
something that uses a subset font, then the tool needs a full
font table so it can create a new embedded set for storage
or output. It's going to try to get that font from the
system font folder.

What you missed on your Adobe Illustrator experiment, is when
you pulled in the PDF, the tool converted the fonts into strokes
or outlines. As near as I can tell at the moment, those are
no longer fonts after the conversion. AI doesn't seem to be
keeping references to them that way. It's just a pile
of strokes.

However, if I now used the typing tool, and wanted to
add some like-characters, I would need to select Road Geek
and start typing. To select Road Geek, the Road Geek has
to be in the Windows font folder. It can get there by
installing the font directly (right-click the font
and install it). Or if you use a Font Manager, that
will likely dynamically load some subset of your
font collection on demand.

The experiment I did, of pulling PDF into AI, resulted
in some stroke based output with fill for the characters.
But if I wanted to do the job right, I might use the Text Tool
and enter text that way (if I was doing the drawing from scratch).

You have the font and the tools now, to test the workflow.

The only thing you can't test, is what kind of "content" is
in the .ai file. On a PDF, we can do Properties and select
the Font item and examine what fonts are embedded. I don't
see a similar feature in AI. The information should really
be there somewhere.

I think I've only briefly glanced over someones shoulder at
work, who was running some ancient AI. And I haven't been
running the CS2 suite here myself (your experiment is the
first time I've tried AI). I have two older copies of Photoshop,
a copy of Distiller, and that's about it for Adobe. I may have
loaded a Premiere trial once. I have copies of Reader all
over the place, but that's their freebie.

When you make changes that actually involve the font,
that's when the tool will go looking for the font. If the
font is not present, it's going to whine about it.

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 05:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
I don't see a reason Adobe Illustrator couldn't embed a font.
I don't either, but it seems it's not as obvious how to best embed fonts in
an AI file given these two hits I'm still reading as I respond:
<https://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/35285/how-to-preserve-fonts-with-an-adobe-illustrator-file#35287>
<https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1317175>

It seems everyone who asks how to embed fonts in AI is "confused" based on
those two hits anyway, so, it must simply not be intuitive.

But I think our only viable options are:
a. PDF (with the fonts embedded by AI and then saved), or,
b. AI (if the fonts can be embedded).
Post by Paul
Fonts can be copied two ways. Perhaps at some point in the past,
entire chunks of font were put in documents. But the files I've
looked at more recently, sometimes you can find a sparse table
with only five characters in it. I've examined some of these
with Fontographer (I think that's the name).
Hey Paul,
I just got an idea.
How does this sound as a test plan?
1. I embed the Roadgeek font in AI (if I can) and in the PDF from AI.
2. Then I *remove* the Roadgeek system fonts from Windows.
3. Then I see if AI can 'see' the embedded fonts.

If that sounds like a good test plan, the only thing I have to figure out
is what's the best way to *remove* a font from Windows?

*Do I just delete them manually from the System Font folder?*
Post by Paul
If you open a document with a very sparse (subset) font like that, it
doesn't even have all the letters of the alphabet. This can
cause the tool that only has access to that subset, to refuse
to allow text editing. Because as soon as you insert a character
for which the font table has no entry, the tool can't put anything
up on the screen.
I think that's exactly why the *entire* Roadgeek font set was embedded in
the original PowerPoint template. The guy who made that template knew what
he was doing apparently, especially since the *size* was also perfect at 12
inches by 18 inches, even in the PDF and even in Adobe Illustrator.
Post by Paul
Now, Adobe made a tool to solve that. It was something like Adobe
Type Manager, and it had a generic Sans and Serif font, which
could be used to approximate just about every other font. All that
was needed, was some sort of geometry info, to make approximations.
Yuck!
Thank God for the free Roadgeek fonts! :)
Post by Paul
I already drew a diagram with my best guess how this would
work. If you open a document and make any changes at all to
something that uses a subset font, then the tool needs a full
font table so it can create a new embedded set for storage
or output. It's going to try to get that font from the
system font folder.
This makes sense. I agree with you. Thank you for explaining.
You are helping put the pieces together as I don't deal with fonts much.
Post by Paul
What you missed on your Adobe Illustrator experiment, is when
you pulled in the PDF, the tool converted the fonts into strokes
or outlines. As near as I can tell at the moment, those are
no longer fonts after the conversion. AI doesn't seem to be
keeping references to them that way. It's just a pile
of strokes.
Hmmmmm... are you sure? I thought it substituted the *default* AI font
(whatever that was) for the original font.

Are you sure AI converted the fonts in the PDF to strokes?
Let me try that step again. Gimme a sec......
Hmmmmm......

1. This is what it says when it reads in the Powerpoint-saved PDF:
The document contains PDF objects that have been reinterpreted.
The font 1 is missing.
Affected text will be displayed using a substitute font.

So on the one hand, that implies a *font* was substituted ...
<Loading Image...>

2. However, on the other hand, I do see "strokes" listed in the GUI.
Loading Image...

3. So it's confusing whether fonts or strokes are initially used, but
it does seem that the font is substituted when I run the command:
AI: Type > Find Font
as shown below before I select the Roadgeek font.
Loading Image...

4. And the fantastically beautiful result after I select the Roadgeek font.
Loading Image...

5. In short, I am *confused* about that first step whether "strokes"
(whatever they are) are involved, but it doesn't matter because I can
substitute in the Roadgeek font and then it looks fantastically perfect in
the Roadgeek-font layout!
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
However, if I now used the typing tool, and wanted to
add some like-characters, I would need to select Road Geek
and start typing. To select Road Geek, the Road Geek has
to be in the Windows font folder.
Yes. I see that now. It's actually pretty simple.
I put the roadgeek in the Windows folder and that's all I need to do.
Post by Paul
It can get there by
installing the font directly (right-click the font
and install it). Or if you use a Font Manager, that
will likely dynamically load some subset of your
font collection on demand.
Oh. I see. OK. Well, I didn't know that, so I skipped that step. :)
Post by Paul
The experiment I did, of pulling PDF into AI, resulted
in some stroke based output with fill for the characters.
But if I wanted to do the job right, I might use the Text Tool
and enter text that way (if I was doing the drawing from scratch).
You have the font and the tools now, to test the workflow.
Yup. The only thing I need to test now is how to *embed* the font into the
Adobe Illustrator output.

I looked around to see if there was any viable option *other* than PDF or
AI format, and I don't see it. For example, these are the
"File > Export" options...
Loading Image...
This list is:
AutoCAD Drawing (*.DWG)
AutoCAD Interchange File (*.DXF)
BMP (*.BMP)
Enhanced Metafile (*.EMF)
JPEG (*.JPG)
Macintosh PICT (*.PCT)
Macromedia Flash (*.SWF)
Photoshop (*.PSD)
PNG (*.PNG)
Targa (*.TGA)
Text Format (*.TXT)
Post by Paul
The only thing you can't test, is what kind of "content" is
in the .ai file. On a PDF, we can do Properties and select
the Font item and examine what fonts are embedded. I don't
see a similar feature in AI. The information should really
be there somewhere.
Following your lead, when I saved as "Adobe PDF", a dialog with a bunch of
options popped up:
Loading Image...

One of those options was "Advanced" which said "Fonts":
"Subset fonts when percent of characters used is less than 100%"
whatever that means, but then it also said, below that in small print:
*"All fonts with appropriate permission bits will be embedded"*
Loading Image...

So, I _think_ the fonts are embedded, since these are wide-open fonts.
Post by Paul
I think I've only briefly glanced over someones shoulder at
work, who was running some ancient AI. And I haven't been
running the CS2 suite here myself (your experiment is the
first time I've tried AI). I have two older copies of Photoshop,
a copy of Distiller, and that's about it for Adobe. I may have
loaded a Premiere trial once. I have copies of Reader all
over the place, but that's their freebie.
When you make changes that actually involve the font,
that's when the tool will go looking for the font. If the
font is not present, it's going to whine about it.
Hi Paul,
I ran a test.
I saved the PDF and AI as shown above, with the fonts set to Roadgeek.
Then I manually *deleted* the Roadgeek fonts in the Windows System folder.

Lo and behold, when I clicked on the "signs.ai" file, it complained:
"Font Problems: Roadgeek2005SeriesB: Default font substituted for missing
font. This document "signs.ai" uses fonts or characters which are not
available or are in a different format than originally specified. Do you
still wish to open this document?"
Loading Image...

When I said "Open", it brought me back to ugly, which, I think, proves that
the AI-format file does *not* contain the embedded font.
Loading Image...

When I opened the PDF file that was saved by AI in a PDF reader, it looked
perfect but when I opened that same PDF file in AI, it sucked.

Darn. The *same* thing happened. No fonts. Jesus. Hmmmm... that sucks.

I'll have to dig up how to embed a font in an AI-output file.
Sigh.
Paul
2018-04-02 03:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Char Jackson
OK, no worries. I only wanted to point out that folks with slow or
unreliable Internet connections can likely use a download manager to
overcome the related difficulties.
I'm still not sure what you're exactly saying, but that's OK.
This is for Paul, where I simply documented what I did, and it still kept
asking for CD 2, which doesn't exist (it's all on the hard drive).
Paul ... here's what I did.
I'll continue to debug ...and try things out ... but, as you said, there's
a trick to installing it, where the instructions that come with it assume
you actually have a CDROM in the optical disc drive.
Paul: What did I do wrong?
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe
Size: 375638402 bytes (358 MB)
SHA256: 36DACE2549BDE94D7A45281380EEF453FD2AF38EDA19348FA3DE567549A696EC
SHA1: 1538166046E59DB6098F75C3196E84AD9310DEA1
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA256: 5862668CA45C0196777D3D4E2108D0A6F0750F6965769CB5730944D3520DBB54
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA1: D06911267603474B43F3F39E4B00029787173962
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe
Size: 346373903 bytes (330 MB)
SHA256: C662F1C431FAA33160523545FDA3BD58F29ED3616CB8E6D1835CCE810AD5AB30
SHA1: 54BA48723D657E4A86903ED2C876381488C8F945
-----
Name: CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe
Size: 431237012 bytes (411 MB)
SHA256: 921402DA55BFEF5E6E21DE2261F725FFE0A451153F453000FB3152635E1161BE
SHA1: 1C6CC05D49244ED1417B3E2C3136D4FD0B7F57E0
2. Unpack by right clicking & selecting 7Zip unpack to (choose the
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Read Me First.html
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
-----
CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Documentation\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Goodies\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Technical Information\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Documentation\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Goodies\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Read Me First.html
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Technical Information\.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Setup.exe
5. You'll get a warning that "QuickTime 6 is required to use the
multimedia features in the Adobe Creative Suite 2", which you can ignore.
6. Then it will require a Name (default = "Windows User") & serial number.
Name: Windows user
Company: blank
Serial Number 1130 1414 7569 4457 6613 5551
7. It will default to C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe
It says it will use up 2.62GB
I put mine in C:\app\editor\pic\cs2
[x] Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
[x] Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
[x] Adobe Photoshop CS2 and Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
[x] Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)
"Please insert CD 2 to continue installation"
where if you hit the "OK" button, it will ask forever for that CD 2.
I unpacked Disc1 and put the major items of Disc2, Disc3, and the
last disc under the same folder that Photoshop uses. I didn't
actually run anything other than Illustrator, to actually verify
they all installed OK.

CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Adobe Photoshop CS2

\Adobe InDesign CS2
\Adobe Version Cue CS2

\Adobe Illustrator CS2

\Adobe Solutions Network
\Documentation
\Goodies
\Technical Information

Anyway, with that setup in place, I wasn't getting an "Insert Disc 2"
situation that could not be resolved. It took a couple tries before
I got the hang of it.

I'm not even sure the last disc contents got installed, and I'd only know
if trying to access some documentation perhaps.

The EXE of the first disc, starts an installer. While the other three
are more or less just self-extracting files, suitable for
concatenating to the original folder structure.

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 05:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
I unpacked Disc1 and put the major items of Disc2, Disc3, and the
last disc under the same folder that Photoshop uses. I didn't
actually run anything other than Illustrator, to actually verify
they all installed OK.
Hi Paul,

Auuurgggghhh. That was it!

*It's sooooo simple once you already know the answer!*

I just installed the remaining two components (whatever they do).
"C:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe InDesign CS2\InDesign.exe"
"C:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\bin\VersionCueCS2.exe"
The installer did NOT ask me for the CD this time!

One thing we need to be clear on is *how* we unpacked the files.
There are a bunch of ways to unpack the originally downloaded files.

Most people will likely just doubleclick on the downloaded files to unpack:
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe
CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe
But I right clicked and selected the 7Zip unpacker to unpack them.

So that's one difference we may have had.

The second difference is that everything worked perfectly (without asking
for the second CD) only when I did what you said to do just now, which is
to put everything in the same directory as the "Setup.exe" is in.

That is, I first unpacked the files with a 7Zip right click.
Then I put all the folders in the same folder as the "Setup.exe" was in.

Here is a DIR of that folder.
Abcpy.ini
Activation
Adobe Bridge Services
Adobe Illustrator CS2 <=== this folder needs to be here to work
Adobe InDesign CS2 <=== this folder needs to be here to work
Adobe Photoshop CS2 <=== this folder needs to be here to work
Adobe Solutions Network
Adobe Version Cue CS2 <=== this folder needs to be here to work
adobeisf.dll
AdobeUpdater.dll
agldt28l.dll
almuirsc.dll
asn.er.dll
asneu.dll
boost_thread-vc7-mt-1_31.dll
Design Guide.pdf
Documentation
en_gb
epic_eula.dll
epic_pers.dll
epic_regs.dll
eularesen_GB.dll
Goodies
How To Install.html
How to Uninstall.pdf
legal
libagli18n28.dll
libagluc28.dll
MFC71.dll
msvcp71.dll
msvcr71.dll
persresen_GB.dll
Read Me First.html
regsresen_GB.dll
required
Setup.exe <===================== this is the setup file to run!
setup.ini
Suite Specific
SupportDll.dll
Technical Information
upgradecomponent.dll

I will try to write up a summary so that the tribal knowledge is updated so
that the NEXT person has a much easier time of it than we did, which is
always one of my goals, and where that's my payback for all your wonderful
help.
Neil
2018-03-30 12:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
You keep asking about importing a PowerPoint file into Illustrator,
but you don't say why you think that's necessary. It probably isn't.
One more time; Illustrator is not a PDF editor, and PowerPoint is not
a vector graphics program. If you can grasp that, then know that there
is no compatibility between those programs that will save someone time
or effort. Just the opposite, in fact.
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
And, I guess I wasn't clear, but the shop is using Adobe Illustrator.
That's not up to me either.
From what you've written before, it sounds like the signs are rather
simple rectangular objects. Does the shop have to modify them in some
way? If not, there's no benefit to involving Illustrator, and if so,
they can place the file in Illustrator just as you, and it takes almost
no time to do so.
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
So it's not like I have any choice in the starting point, or in the
ending point.
It seems to me that there is a lack of familiarity with Illustrator.
That they use Illustrator to create original graphics only underscores
the fact that they rely on PostScript devices, like almost every print
shop in the world at this point in time. Valid PDF files can be sent
directly to output, since the file format is PostScript. Nothing will be
more efficient or save more time and effort than that.

My suggestion would be, once again, to concentrate on creating valid PDF
file of your artwork. Your shop can verify this.
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
NOTE: Only someone who has actually done it will know the answer.
I've done far more than this over the last 30 years.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 18:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
From what you've written before, it sounds like the signs are rather
simple rectangular objects.
Warning... :)

I'm going to give you far more information than you need, to answer that
question, which I appreciate, since it's a logical question for you to ask.

Here is a screenshot of the original sample PowerPoint file, named
"signs.pptx", that was provided to the neighbors with the instructions to
modify anything they wanted to modify at will except the lowest line, which
is the town ordinance.
Loading Image...
Post by Neil
Does the shop have to modify them in some
way? If not, there's no benefit to involving Illustrator, and if so,
they can place the file in Illustrator just as you, and it takes almost
no time to do so.
The shop is supposed to simply print the signs to the right size, bearing
in mind that the holes are already accounted for in the layout of the
original sign.

To show you what the input is, here is the actual powerpoint file, named
signs.pptx, that was handed to all the neighbors as the original template
for them to modify:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html
Post by Neil
It seems to me that there is a lack of familiarity with Illustrator.
That they use Illustrator to create original graphics only underscores
the fact that they rely on PostScript devices, like almost every print
shop in the world at this point in time. Valid PDF files can be sent
directly to output, since the file format is PostScript. Nothing will be
more efficient or save more time and effort than that.
My suggestion would be, once again, to concentrate on creating valid PDF
file of your artwork. Your shop can verify this.
The only question here is what format requires the least amount of manual
effort.

Given that is the question, I agree with your technical assessment that the
only format that seems to make sense is the PDF format, where here is an
actual PDF file of that powerpoint document, named signs.pdf:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

If someone here has Adobe Illustrator, and if they can suck in that file,
maybe they can tell us what they would need to do by way of manual layout
to print a 12x18 inch sign on a vinyl printer.
Neil
2018-03-30 19:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
From what you've written before, it sounds like the signs are rather
simple rectangular objects.
Warning... :)
I'm going to give you far more information than you need, to answer that
question, which I appreciate, since it's a logical question for you to ask.
Here is a screenshot of the original sample PowerPoint file, named
"signs.pptx", that was provided to the neighbors with the instructions to
modify anything they wanted to modify at will except the lowest line, which
is the town ordinance.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no modification
from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them work by trying
to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will be charged for
manual layout whenever the source material that you deliver is in
Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is, you'd know why.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 20:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no modification
from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them work by trying
to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will be charged for
manual layout whenever the source material that you deliver is in
Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is, you'd know why.
I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.

So, I agree with you that I have no idea what it even means when you say
that I'm creating work for them by trying to supply them with an
Illustrator file. I really don't understand that, because I don't have the
technical experience with Adobe Illustrator to understand that.

But I did just moments ago read Paul's post, where he pointed us all to
this web page, which says, or at least I think it says, that PDF is the
native format of Adobe Illustrator.
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>

As for the manual effort involved, Paul tried it himself, where he found
two steps needed to be performed manually (if I understood him correctly)
before the layout could be printed to the vinyl sheets.
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]

Would you concur with Paul's observations?
Paul
2018-03-30 22:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no
modification from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them
work by trying to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will
be charged for manual layout whenever the source material that you
deliver is in Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is,
you'd know why.
I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
So, I agree with you that I have no idea what it even means when you say
that I'm creating work for them by trying to supply them with an
Illustrator file. I really don't understand that, because I don't have the
technical experience with Adobe Illustrator to understand that.
But I did just moments ago read Paul's post, where he pointed us all to
this web page, which says, or at least I think it says, that PDF is the
native format of Adobe Illustrator.
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>
As for the manual effort involved, Paul tried it himself, where he found
two steps needed to be performed manually (if I understood him correctly)
before the layout could be printed to the vinyl sheets.
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]
Would you concur with Paul's observations?
Illustrator uses a dual representation for internal usage.

So when we say it "imported" the PDF, it's like it is receiving
"half" of a .ai file. And the way Illustrator behaves suggests
it doesn't do quite the same parsing. But I can tell you it
does a better job than LibreOffice does of "importing" PDF.

It's also possible that the content of .ai has changed
over the years. The Wikipedia article may have more
details, if that's important.

In other words, we have to be a little wary about using the
word "native". Yes, there might be some PDF constructs inside
the file, but you'd need a pretty detailed book on the topic to
understand just what is inside a modern .ai file.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Illustrator_Artwork

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 01:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Illustrator uses a dual representation for internal usage.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that clarification, where, we have two problems in the file
format, and, where all of us have spent *decades* dealing with
inconsistencies in converting one file format to another (remember EDIF,
Electronic Data Interchange Format for example?).

Even *text* files have inconsistencies between the platforms, as you're
well aware, where I appreciate the clarification so I will state that PDF
is still the right answer given the circumstances, but that PDF may or may
not necessarily be the "native" format of AI, despite this direct quote
from that reference you so kindly located.
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
<http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>
"the native Adobe Illustrator file format (*.AI) is PDF, and as
such it is one of the best applications supporting direct
import/export to PDF."
Post by Paul
So when we say it "imported" the PDF, it's like it is receiving
"half" of a .ai file. And the way Illustrator behaves suggests
it doesn't do quite the same parsing. But I can tell you it
does a better job than LibreOffice does of "importing" PDF.
Thanks for that helpful clarification Paul, where what I really think is
important is how Adobe Illustrator handles the "embedded fonts* in the PDF
file.
Post by Paul
It's also possible that the content of .ai has changed
over the years. The Wikipedia article may have more
details, if that's important.
I agree Paul, as we're all in our 80s, 70s, and 60s, which means we've all
seen hundreds if not many thousands of incompatible file issues between
software, and even versions of the same software.

At this point, I don't have the equipment to test out all those potential
file incompatibilities, where the only two formats that are going to
practically matter in this situation are:
a. Windows Powerpoint to PDF to Mac Adobe Illistrator, or,
b. Windows PowerPoint to PDF to Windows AI to Mac Adobe Illustrator.

Whichever one works best & with embedded fonts is the way that is best.
Post by Paul
In other words, we have to be a little wary about using the
word "native". Yes, there might be some PDF constructs inside
the file, but you'd need a pretty detailed book on the topic to
understand just what is inside a modern .ai file.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Illustrator_Artwork
To be clear, I didn't use the word "native" originally, where the quote
from that reference used the word native, and I simply mirrored what they
said, presuming they knew far more than I do. :)
Wolf K
2018-03-31 00:06:23 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-03-30 16:32, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
[...]

That was clear from the subject question.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 01:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
[...]
That was clear from the subject question.
Wolf,
*I presume you are an adult.*

I presume /all/ the adults on this thread /knew/ that I never once said or
implied that I was an expert, and, in fact, an expert would never have
asked this question, since he would have /known/ the answer a priori.

Hence ... I have to ask again if you are an adult.

The reason I ask is that you don't seem to /act/ like an adult should.

I only speak facts.

Please understand, I am not trying to insult you.
I'm not.

*I'm trying to keep this thread focused on purposefully helpful posts.*

I'm trying to ensure that everyone here, including you and me, don't have
to suffer the childish retorts that help nobody that you seem to thrive
upon.

Please take this as helpful, adult advice.

thanks!
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-31 01:36:06 UTC
Permalink
In message <p9mmla$1i8u$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<***@ultred.com> writes:
[]
Please understand, I am not trying to insult you. I'm not.
[]
No, you can do that without trying.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that
may never be questioned.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 03:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
No, you can do that without trying.
:)

What I try to do is swat away the brainless gnats at the picnic, because if
you let them, the annoying gnats will ruin any thread they infest.

Truth be told, the thread is ruined the second these annoying gnats show
up, but I still try to swat them away as nicely as I can.
Wolf K
2018-03-31 12:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
[...]
That was clear from the subject question.
Wolf, *I presume you are an adult.*
I'm certainly older than you, and have seen enough doofuses to know one
when I see one.

Have a good day.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 14:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
I'm certainly older than you, and have seen enough doofuses to know one
when I see one.
Have a good day.
I shouldn't have to explain to a fellow octogenarian that it's your actions
which define whether you act like an adult or a child, not your
chronological age.

Your actions above, are clear to all, what your mental age appears to be.

The point is that you're supposed to:
a. Be purposefully helpful, and,
b. To add some *value* to the thread

My only reason for pointing this out is that the gnats will ruin the picnic
if you let them, and then nobody benefits from the discussion.
Neil
2018-03-31 20:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Wolf K
I'm certainly older than you, and have seen enough doofuses to know
one when I see one.
Have a good day.
I shouldn't have to explain to a fellow octogenarian that it's your actions
which define whether you act like an adult or a child, not your
chronological age.
From my perspective, your actions have not established your supposed
chronological age, either. Why else would you ignore solutions in
deference to pursuing an approach that will result in the same charges
that you claim to want to eliminate? Why else would you consider the
opinions of someone who may know how to use a search engine, but doesn't
even claim to understand the results of the search over those of one who
has owned and operated a graphic arts business for almost 50 years? Why
else would you come up with an argument to avoid asking the pro-level
questions that another contributor outlined that would also lead to
either a reduction in costs or a good reason to change suppliers?

The adults among us can reasonably conclude that your intent with these
actions is to perpetuate the discussion rather than solve your
"problem", and that is about as far from adult behavior as one gets.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 22:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
From my perspective, your actions have not established your supposed
chronological age, either.
Fair enough observation.

We've all been on Usenet for as long as it has existed.

I must agree that the mere fact that I /respond/ to the trolls such as Wolf
clearly was, is dropping down to their level, which, we all know that they
have more experience in.

I have to repeat what I've said a thousand times to accusations to not
"feed" the trolls, that the model of ignoring them works best in the
chit-chat model of Usenet that most of you use.

I don't use the chit-chat model.
I use the Q&A model.

The chit-chat model is sort of like walking along a trail, where you can
take any trail you want since you're not seeking a specific spot, where if
there are gnats buzzing about, you can just walk in another direction and
still accomplish your goals.

The Q&A model is sort of like a picnic, where you stay on one place and
where, if the gnats infest the thread, you have to swat them away as well
as you can, although once they infest the picnic, it's already doomed, but
you do the best to can to get rid of them.
Post by Neil
Why else would you ignore solutions in
deference to pursuing an approach that will result in the same charges
that you claim to want to eliminate?
You've got to be kidding. Really. You have to be incredibly naieve to say
that, since you *know* I'm committed to /testing/ out the solution that
Paul provided, and you know that I've already asked the shop and the kids
don't even understand the question.

How can you /possibly/ say what you just said?
I've responded to every reasonable suggestion.

Every single one.
Post by Neil
Why else would you consider the
opinions of someone who may know how to use a search engine, but doesn't
even claim to understand the results of the search over those of one who
has owned and operated a graphic arts business for almost 50 years?
The problem here has already been almost completely solved.
Are you saying we don't already have the solution?
I'm confused by what you're saying we ignored.

Please clarify, since we already said that we're implementing /all/ the
suggested solutions that stand a chance of working.

For example, if you say "don't use Powerpoint", that's a solution that
stands zero chance of working under the given circumstances.

Likewise, if you say "don't use Mac Adobe Illustrator", or don't do vinyle
printouts, as that stands a zero chance of working too.

I don't get to decide those two end points.
I only get to decide what connects that start and end point.
Post by Neil
Why
else would you come up with an argument to avoid asking the pro-level
questions that another contributor outlined that would also lead to
either a reduction in costs or a good reason to change suppliers?
We are dealing with kids here. High school kids. They don't even
/understand/ the concept of skipping manual steps. As I explained already
in another location, it's like dealing with my secretary (now called
admins) in the 80s and 90s who would do a task a thousand times, instead of
learning how to write a macro so that it's efficiently done.

She'd just do the manual task a thousand times.
It would never occur to her to pick up a book on Visual Basic or Macros or
whatever, to shorten the task from 1000 to 1. It just isn't in her head.

It's the same with these kids.
It would /never/ occur to them /not/ to do every sign's layout manually.
It's just not in their heads.

I'm not the psychology you need me to be in order to get a coherent answer
out of them why they don't go to the trouble of figuring out how to shorted
the steps from 1000 to 1. I'm just not.

Their brand of psychology is foreign to mine.
It just is.
Post by Neil
The adults among us can reasonably conclude that your intent with these
actions is to perpetuate the discussion rather than solve your
"problem", and that is about as far from adult behavior as one gets.
You have a fair enough assessment but you completely whooshed on the
difference in being "responsive" to each post and actually solving the
problem.

They're two different things.

I'm being responsive to your post right now, but your post that I'm
responding to has nearly zero chance of being helpful to solve the problem
because we /already/ solved the problem (mostly with Paul's research).

For you to know that we solved the problem, and then for you to bring up
new issues, mostly that we didn't explore every possible avenue, is doing
exactly what you're complaining about.

That is, if I respond to your complaints, that just perpetuates this
thread.

Do you see that?
Remember, we already solved the problem in that we know what the approach
needs to be, which requires a copy of the tools to test it out for
feasibility.

That will take time.

So me responding to your issues just "perpetuates" the thread, as you
noted, and yet, moves us no further toward the solution, since you feel the
solution is in these high school kids, and I already know that I don't have
the power to change the psychology of someone else's kids.

You think I have that power to change the psychology of someone else's kids
- but I don't.

So I understand that you /think/ that I have this power, and since you know
I'm not exercising that power that you think I have, that I'm not
evaluating your proposed solution.

But I already evaluated it. It's not possible. It's just not.

Having said that, your concern about the "perpetuation" of this thread is
valid, where me responding to your concerns, or to anyone's concerns at
this point, isn't going to help - since I have a lot of work ahead of me to
test out the proposed solution from Paul, which is the only proposal that
stands a chance of working (IMHO).

So, to /address/ your concerns about the perpetuation of this thread, THIS
IS MY LAST POST TO THIS THREAD UNTIL I TEST OUT THE WORKABLE PROPOSED
SOLUTION.

That should solve your issue, should it not?
Neil
2018-03-31 00:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no
modification from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them
work by trying to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will
be charged for manual layout whenever the source material that you
deliver is in Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is,
you'd know why.
I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
So, I agree with you that I have no idea what it even means when you say
that I'm creating work for them by trying to supply them with an
Illustrator file. I really don't understand that, because I don't have the
technical experience with Adobe Illustrator to understand that.
But I did just moments ago read Paul's post, where he pointed us all to
this web page, which says, or at least I think it says, that PDF is the
native format of Adobe Illustrator.
Well, PDF is NOT the native format of Illustrator. Both formats are
rooted in PostScript, but an AI file is not equivalent to a PDF file.
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
As for the manual effort involved, Paul tried it himself, where he found
two steps needed to be performed manually (if I understood him correctly)
before the layout could be printed to the vinyl sheets.
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]
Would you concur with Paul's observations?
No.

Bottom line is this: hand them an Illustrator file and pay the print
shop for doing manual layout.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 00:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
Bottom line is this: hand them an Illustrator file and pay the print
shop for doing manual layout.
The good news is that, for the very first time, thanks to Paul's work, and
that of other purposefully helpful people, we /can/ hand them an Adobe
Illustrator file, from Windows at least.

This shop is on the Mac, as you might imagine, where I asked the same
question of rec.photo.digital, but it went absolutely nowhere since the
Apple users tend to not be helpful no matter what question is asked.

http://tinyurl.com/rec-photo-digital
*Can Mac Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint with fonts?*
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.photo.digital/zdVFRNwhdA8/UXTcwOiUBgAJ>

http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10
*Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?*
<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103517>

Given that it has been proven that almost any technical question asked on
the Apple newsgroups over the past two decades tends to devolve into
childish drivel almost instantly, I hesitate to ask the Mac users this
basic Windows-to-Mac question which your suggestion invariably involves:

Q: If I download the Adobe Illustrator software that Paul pointed me to,
and if I create an output file from Adobe Illustrator on Windows, can the
Mac Adobe Illustrator read that in, and use the embedded fonts?
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 10:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
Bottom line is this: hand them an Illustrator file and pay the print
shop for doing manual layout.
Hi Neil,

Remember you asked me to ask the shop?

Well, I sent them the output from Adobe Illustrator (in both PDF and in AI)
where neither can 'embed' the font (which seems crazy, but that's what my
tests clearly showed).

At the same time, I asked them WHY Adobe Illustrator.

This is what I got back by way of answer...
"The Vinyl Cutter uses a cut extension through Adobe Illustrator,
thus the need to format the art through Illustrator.
We program what is cut through Illustrator.
Your pdf files will work fine. I have to install the fonts
you gave, which is no big deal. Changing the fonts so that
the cut is easy. No new layout work will need to be done."
Paul
2018-04-02 21:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
Bottom line is this: hand them an Illustrator file and pay the print
shop for doing manual layout.
Hi Neil,
Remember you asked me to ask the shop?
Well, I sent them the output from Adobe Illustrator (in both PDF and in
AI) where neither can 'embed' the font (which seems crazy, but that's
what my tests clearly showed).
At the same time, I asked them WHY Adobe Illustrator.
This is what I got back by way of answer...
"The Vinyl Cutter uses a cut extension through Adobe Illustrator,
thus the need to format the art through Illustrator. We program
what is cut through Illustrator.
Your pdf files will work fine. I have to install the fonts you
gave, which is no big deal. Changing the fonts so that
the cut is easy. No new layout work will need to be done."
This is an example of an embedded font from a PDF,
as seen in FontForge. There's a table, but there are
empty cells. Using a subset of the font like that,
prevents "theft" of licensed fonts - only
enough of the font is present, to support
printing.

Loading Image...

Tools are supposed to insist on full fonts (or use
Adobe Type Manager to approximate fonts), when making
changes to something that had a subset font.

Now, my example is "lucky" as it has all the upper case
letters. But it also has none of the lower case letters.
So that's hardly a usable set, for any purpose.

Some embedded font tables only have five letters or one
letter. For example, someone who wanted to "booby trap"
a certain document, put a single special character
(that looked like the letter "i" but wasn't), and it
was a pain to deal with that.

It took me two weeks once, as an experiment, to remove
the following "protective" technique from a PDF file. Using
FontForge, I was able to edit all the embedded (subset)
fonts and re-distill the file and make a (pretty well)
working copy afterwards. Such that if you did
wipe over some text, copy and paste, you actually
got the correct letters in your paste. There is
apparently commercial word processing software
that supports this obfuscation technique (during print output).
Font lookups are done in two stages, and by remapping the fonts
and making the step between the two stages non-linear,
you can prevent copy/paste of "content". It's a pretty
evil protection method. PDFs have a setting for "Do Not Copy",
but this technique augments the status bit, and adds a
second barrier to prevent plagiarism. The fastest way
to defeat this is OCR, but OCR isn't really all that
accurate. And the "Ohs" and "Zeroes" get mixed up.

http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/corner/Obfuscated_PDF

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 23:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
It took me two weeks once, as an experiment, to remove
the following "protective" technique from a PDF file. Using
FontForge, I was able to edit all the embedded (subset)
fonts and re-distill the file and make a (pretty well)
working copy afterwards. Such that if you did
wipe over some text, copy and paste, you actually
got the correct letters in your paste.
Hi Paul,
I think we're going with the opposite of embedding fonts, moving forward,
since Windows MS Office has no problems embedding fonts (which makes
collaboration amount Windows users fantastic since we embedded the entire
font set).

What we're likely to do, moving forward, is, in Adobe Illustrator, we'll
convert the font to shapes. That will eliminate any font issue on the Mac
side since there won't be any fonts by the time the shop gets the file.

Thanks for all your advice and help, where, if we knew then what we know
now, this thread would be all of a handful of posts!

What solved all the questions was just the experience of *doing* it, which
answered every remaining question instantly.

e.g.c Can AI read in PowerPoint.
Answer = nope.

That kind of stuff.

Thanks!
Wolf K
2018-03-30 12:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
To be clear, I didn't say that raster versus vector would be relevant
to what you are attempting to do. Small road signs like yours that
are viewed from a distance that would make it possible to use a
number of programs to generate adequate images. However, that does
not negate the point I was making about bitmap resolution and file
formats.
Agreed and understood that there certainly are applications where the exact
color and curved shapes would matter greatly.
Luckily, this is only a question about what format can come out of
PowerPoint that has the lowest possible setup in Adobe Illustrator.
You keep asking about importing a PowerPoint file into Illustrator, but
you don't say why you think that's necessary. It probably isn't. One
more time; Illustrator is not a PDF editor, and PowerPoint is not a
vector graphics program. If you can grasp that, then know that there is
no compatibility between those programs that will save someone time or
effort. Just the opposite, in fact.
A careful reading of previous threads bu Ultred Whoever suggests that he
is either unteachable or being deliberately obtuse. If it's the latter,
he's probably giggling every time he pulls in another fish.

Best,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
Frank Slootweg
2018-03-30 17:43:06 UTC
Permalink
[Disclaimer: Cant do the time, ...]

Wolf K <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:
[...]
Post by Wolf K
A careful reading of previous threads bu Ultred Whoever suggests that he
is either unteachable or being deliberately obtuse. If it's the latter,
he's probably giggling every time he pulls in another fish.
Ding, ding! We *have* a winner! :-) c.q. :-(

Mr. Nymshifter wants to prevent or at least minimize the "layout work"
which his supplier charged him for. 'So', he asks everyone how to do
that, *except* his supplier. Why? Because his supplier would probably
give him the/an answer/solution and N. doesn't like answers/solutions.

He only likes 'problems' which he can stretch out forever. What N.
dislikes even more than answers/solutions, is people showing him the
errors of his ways. Then he can become real nasty and will lie, cheat,
belittle, insult, etc.. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Sofar, he's not been showing much of his nasty streaks in these
Windows groups. In the 'mobile' [1] groups, it's a complete different
kettle of fish, but of course he blames that on the audience, not on
himself.

[1] comp.mobile.android,alt.cellular, mostly crossposted to
misc.phone.mobile.iphones (to yank the chains of the "Apple
[Apologists|Babies]") or/and alt.cellular
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 18:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
He only likes 'problems' which he can stretch out forever. What N.
dislikes even more than answers/solutions, is people showing him the
errors of his ways. Then he can become real nasty and will lie, cheat,
belittle, insult, etc.. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Hi Frank,

I've been on Usenet for decades so I am familiar with your rants.
And, I've interacted with you where you know I only speak verifiable fact.

For example, I remember you from the iOS newsgroup, where you thought that
megabits were the same as decibels. Remember that one? Since I only speak
valid facts, here's a link to your own post to refresh your memory.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/VGtq9RzpBgAJ>

I also remember you on the Android newsgroup where you very recently
errantly repeatedly argued senselessly that certain well-known
easily-modified nntp headers weren't actually modifiable. Remember that
one? Since I only speak verifiable facts, here's a link to the first of
your own posts in your long senseless diatribe to refresh your memory.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/sgzGVamjKU0/LK9yTmciAQAJ>

As anyone can see, I only speak valid verifiable facts.

Nonetheless, I see you are now on the Windows newsgroups, where, if you're
concerned that you feel I don't speak facts, you can just load this PDF
file into your Adobe Illustrator app to tell us all how much technical
effort it would take to modify it in order to print it to the 12x18 inch
vinyl sign.

If you don't know the answer to that simple technical question, that's ok -
but if you don't know the answer, then your post is just adding to the
noise level, is it not?

That is, if you won't or can't help answer the question, ,then you won't or
can't help us get the answer - and you'll just be adding to the noise level
since I am forced to respond to your rants by their very nature.

In short, please only respond if you have additional technical information
that helps everyone.

Thanks!
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 18:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Nonetheless, I see you are now on the Windows newsgroups, where, if you're
concerned that you feel I don't speak facts, you can just load this PDF
file into your Adobe Illustrator app to tell us all how much technical
effort it would take to modify it in order to print it to the 12x18 inch
vinyl sign.
OOps. I forgot to include the PDF file for Frank to validate since he seems
to be always questioning the veracity of facts in the iOS and Android, and
now in the Windows newsgroup (but he has not yet once added any technical
value).
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

Here's Frank's chance to add technical value.

Frank.

If you want to add technical value, just load that PDF file, named
"signs.pdf" into your Adobe Illustrator app, and let us know how much
manual effort you'd require to print it to a 12x18" vinyl printer.

Thanks!
Frank Slootweg
2018-03-30 20:14:07 UTC
Permalink
To the audience: You'd better skip this.

My apologies, but I've had enough of his lying, cheating, belittleing,
insulting, etc..
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Frank Slootweg
He only likes 'problems' which he can stretch out forever. What N.
dislikes even more than answers/solutions, is people showing him the
errors of his ways. Then he can become real nasty and will lie, cheat,
belittle, insult, etc.. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Hi Frank,
I've been on Usenet for decades so I am familiar with your rants.
And, I've interacted with you where you know I only speak verifiable fact.
s/speak verifiable fact/lie through my teeth/

See below.
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
For example, I remember you from the iOS newsgroup, where you thought that
megabits were the same as decibels. Remember that one? Since I only speak
valid facts, here's a link to your own post to refresh your memory.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/VGtq9RzpBgAJ>
<quote>
I'm anything but a 'harry' supporter, but exactly *what* in your video
do you think cannot be done on Android?
</quote>

That's lie number 1! In this post, I am supporting 'harry', i.e.
*you*. Your beef was with Snit, not me. (BTW, you can't "remember you
from the iOS newsgroup", because I don't subscribe to that group. The
above example was crossposted.)
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I also remember you on the Android newsgroup where you very recently
errantly repeatedly argued senselessly that certain well-known
easily-modified nntp headers weren't actually modifiable. Remember that
one? Since I only speak verifiable facts, here's a link to the first of
your own posts in your long senseless diatribe to refresh your memory.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/sgzGVamjKU0/LK9yTmciAQAJ>
And that's lie number 2! Again, just read what *I* *wrote*, not *your*
*misrepresentation/falsification* of it.

<quote>
That you say "as can the news server" and "as can any of the headers"
(note: any) shows that you do *not* (fully) know what you're talking
about.
</quote>

Fact: You [1] can *not* modify *all* NetNews headers, hence my comment
on your claim that you can modify "any" - i.e. *all* - headers.

[1] 'You' is generic you, i.e. no (non-newsadmin) user can modify all
headers.

But you're right about the "long senseless" bit, but that was all
yours.

Anyway, after your umpteenth lie, I demanded proof, but of course you
didn't deliver.

It's all in <news:***@ID-201911.user.individual.net>.

And now, you lie again and again.

I have kept this out until now, but I can't anymore:

Why do you intentionally antagonize people with this kind of rubbish,
when you are - as you (at least) once said - aware of the problems which
stem from your disorder?

[...]
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 18:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
A careful reading of previous threads
A careful reading of /all/ my threads shows an attention to detail so that
the questions can be answered with sufficient detail to work in the real
world.

I have even provided the actual powerpoint file, which you, yourself, can
load, if you need to satisfy yourself that the technical problem is a valid
technical question to ask of this newsgroup.

Here it is, where it's a Windows 10 Office 2007 file named "signs.pptx":
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html
Ken Springer
2018-04-06 03:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
To be clear, I didn't say that raster versus vector would be relevant
to what you are attempting to do. Small road signs like yours that are
viewed from a distance that would make it possible to use a number of
programs to generate adequate images. However, that does not negate
the point I was making about bitmap resolution and file formats.
Agreed and understood that there certainly are applications where the exact
color and curved shapes would matter greatly.
Luckily, this is only a question about what format can come out of
PowerPoint that has the lowest possible setup in Adobe Illustrator.
You keep asking about importing a PowerPoint file into Illustrator, but
you don't say why you think that's necessary. It probably isn't. One
more time; Illustrator is not a PDF editor, and PowerPoint is not a
vector graphics program. If you can grasp that, then know that there is
no compatibility between those programs that will save someone time or
effort. Just the opposite, in fact.
Hi, Neil,

I just finished reading this entire thread, and the more I read, the
more angry I got.

Since I wasn't going to offer any solutions, I was able to stand back
and look at Ragnusen's project as he described it. And I came to the
following conclusions...

1. Failure to follow the 6P rule.
2. Lack of knowledge about computer software available to do the job.
3. Insistence on using the wrong tools for the job. Cost is a red
herring here.

I see this all the time, and wonder if business owners realize how much
money they are losing due to ignorance on their part.

I wish Ragnusen had posted a couple samples of the desired finished
product, or the general idea. I suspect there are hours and hours in
this that was not necessary.

Kind of feel sorry for the folks involved in this. And, I don't even
know them. :-(
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Neil
2018-04-06 12:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Neil
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
To be clear, I didn't say that raster versus vector would be relevant
to what you are attempting to do. Small road signs like yours that are
viewed from a distance that would make it possible to use a number of
programs to generate adequate images. However, that does not negate
the point I was making about bitmap resolution and file formats.
Agreed and understood that there certainly are applications where the exact
color and curved shapes would matter greatly.
Luckily, this is only a question about what format can come out of
PowerPoint that has the lowest possible setup in Adobe Illustrator.
  >
You keep asking about importing a PowerPoint file into Illustrator, but
you don't say why you think that's necessary. It probably isn't. One
more time; Illustrator is not a PDF editor, and PowerPoint is not a
vector graphics program. If you can grasp that, then know that there is
no compatibility between those programs that will save someone time or
effort. Just the opposite, in fact.
Hi, Neil,
I just finished reading this entire thread, and the more I read, the
more angry I got.
Since I wasn't going to offer any solutions, I was able to stand back
and look at Ragnusen's project as he described it.  And I came to the
following conclusions...
1.    Failure to follow the 6P rule.
2.    Lack of knowledge about computer software available to do the job.
3.    Insistence on using the wrong tools for the job.  Cost is a red
herring here.
I see this all the time, and wonder if business owners realize how much
money they are losing due to ignorance on their part.
I wish Ragnusen had posted a couple samples of the desired finished
product, or the general idea.  I suspect there are hours and hours in
this that was not necessary.
Kind of feel sorry for the folks involved in this.  And, I don't even
know them.  :-(
I understand your frustration with the course this topic has taken, and
I'm sure you're right about the real costs of his project. I'm OK with
the idea that Ragnusen has a "solution" that satisfies him, even if it
isn't the most logical or cost-effective process.
--
best regards,

Neil
Wolf K
2018-04-06 14:36:35 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-04-06 08:04, Neil wrote:
[...]
Post by Neil
I understand your frustration with the course this topic has taken, and
I'm sure you're right about the real costs of his project. I'm OK with
the idea that Ragnusen has a "solution" that satisfies him, even if it
isn't the most logical or cost-effective process.
I searched on "export a slide from Powerpiint", and found lots of hits,
such as this one:

http://www.jakeludington.com/ask_jake/20050903_extract_a_single_powerpoint_slide_from_a_presentation.html

I'm sure the print-shop would be happy to accept a JPG, even by email.

IMO Ultra-nym-shifter is deliberately inventing weird "problems" just to
see how many fish he can catch.

Best,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
Rodney Pont
2018-03-29 20:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'm limited by what formats with fonts Adobe Illustrator will accept.
DOC, PDF, RTF, GIF, TIF, etc., are accepted, but not PowerPoint.
I'm a total noob on this (see my other response), but wouldn't it be
trivial to save the *visible* respresentation which you have - i.e. the
PPT 'slide' on your display - to GIF or TIF (or PDF)?
Or use the Windows snipping tool?
--
Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2
and built in 5 years;
UKUltraspeed <http://www.500kmh.com/>
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 22:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rodney Pont
Post by Frank Slootweg
I'm a total noob on this (see my other response), but wouldn't it be
trivial to save the *visible* respresentation which you have - i.e. the
PPT 'slide' on your display - to GIF or TIF (or PDF)?
Or use the Windows snipping tool?
I should point out that the output format from PowerPoint can be anything
(e.g., GIF, JPEG, PDF, etc.), where the question is what is the best format
for *direct* import into Adobe Illustrator.
https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/supported-file-formats-illustrator.html

I'm not sure what's the *best* format for *direct* import into Adobe
Illustrator, when the design is a simple 24"x18" road sign with 2-inch
letters, which looks much like any sign would such as this classic "no
parking" sign (were you may notice the borders and fonts).
Loading Image...

What's a bit confusing to me on that Adobe Illustrator page are the types:
a. File formats supported for opening
b. File formats supported for placing
c. File formats supported for saving
d. File formats supported for exporting
e. File formats supported for saving for web
f. File formats supported for saving for screens

Where what it seems to need are two things that aren't there explicitly:
- File formats supported for importing, and,
- File formats supported for printing.
Frank Slootweg
2018-03-30 17:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rodney Pont
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
I'm limited by what formats with fonts Adobe Illustrator will accept.
DOC, PDF, RTF, GIF, TIF, etc., are accepted, but not PowerPoint.
I'm a total noob on this (see my other response), but wouldn't it be
trivial to save the *visible* respresentation which you have - i.e. the
PPT 'slide' on your display - to GIF or TIF (or PDF)?
Or use the Windows snipping tool?
Yes, that's what I - implicitly - meant. I.e. 'slide' is on the OP's
display, use Snipping Tool to save it to JPEG or GIF and - if needed -
use any tool - for example IrfanView - to convert to TIFF.

[N.B. J. P. Gilliver rightly brought up the vector (PDF) versus raster
(GIF/TIFF) aspect, but the OP confirmed that for his roadsigns that's
not an issue.]
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 18:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
[N.B. J. P. Gilliver rightly brought up the vector (PDF) versus raster
(GIF/TIFF) aspect, but the OP confirmed that for his roadsigns that's
not an issue.]
Here is a screenshot of the template handed to the neighbors with the
instructions to modify as needed, where the holes are already accounted
for, and the only caveat is that they can't modify the bottom line because
that will contain the legal ordinance information that must be consistent
on all the signs.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
Jonathan N. Little
2018-03-29 15:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
 I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is rather curious and
misguided.
The document exists in PowerPoint so that's a fact and it uses a certain
embedded font, and that's a fact also.
There are two problems, in addition to the rasterization issue, which can't
be gotten around given that the document already exists.
1. The embedded fonts
2. The format
I'm leaning toward printing to PDF with all the embedded fonts, where I
don't see an option to convert PDF to DOC in the Powerpoint help yet.
I can also go WMF which I've never been exposed to, but it looks like an
image format which won't have the embedded font. (Please note that the Mac
handles embedded fonts differently than does Windows so this is a Windows
question separate from a Mac question).
Not all fonts can be embedded. It depends on the rights for a particular
font. One way to avoid font issues is to convert text to curves then
export as PDF. Of course this is acceptable where the text is limited;
logos, posters, signs and such but not for publishing a novel ;-)
--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 16:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan N. Little
Not all fonts can be embedded. It depends on the rights for a particular
font. One way to avoid font issues is to convert text to curves then
export as PDF. Of course this is acceptable where the text is limited;
logos, posters, signs and such but not for publishing a novel ;-)
On the legality of font distribution, we have that completely under control
so I'll post a response to your concerns separately as it's not an issue
here.

What's the issue here is getting the document into Adobe Illustrator.

Thanks for that additional advice on text to curves in PPT.

I'm not sure how to do that, so I'll type a log as I try.

First off, Microsoft 2007 needs the "SaveAsPDFandXPS.exe" add in just to
"save" to PDF, which I had archived from years ago and saved on my other
HDD, as it may no longer be available at the Microsoft web site.
2007 Microsoft Office Add-in: Microsoft Save as PDF or XPS
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=7

When I hit the "Save As" in Powerpoint 2007, there are a few places to look
for this "save text as curves" option.

1. Logo > Save As > (choose PDF) > Options > Publish
2. Logo > Save As > (choose PDF) > Tools > Publish

In the first set, "Options", there's nothing related to text-to-curves.

In the second set, "Tools", there are subsections
a. Map Network Drive...
b. Save Options... <=== this looks good
c. General Options...
d. Web Options...
e. Compress Pictures...

In the "Save Options...", there is
A. Popular
B. Proofing
C. Save
D. Advanced <=== this looks good
E. Customize
F. Trust Center
G. Resources

Ah, I think I found it!

Under "Advanced" is a "Print" section, and under that is:
[_]Print TrueType fonts as graphics

Before I proceed, is that the "text to curve" option you spoke about?
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 16:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
[_]Print TrueType fonts as graphics
Before I proceed, is that the "text to curve" option you spoke about?
I just ran a quick test, where the results of looking at a small "e" zoomed
tightly on saving to PDF with and without that option doesn't seem to make
any realistic difference at the size of two-inch letters typical of road
signs.

Loading Image...
Frank Slootweg
2018-03-29 18:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Jonathan N. Little
Not all fonts can be embedded. It depends on the rights for a particular
font. One way to avoid font issues is to convert text to curves then
export as PDF. Of course this is acceptable where the text is limited;
logos, posters, signs and such but not for publishing a novel ;-)
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
What's the issue here is getting the document into Adobe Illustrator.
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
First off, Microsoft 2007 needs the "SaveAsPDFandXPS.exe" add in just to
"save" to PDF, which I had archived from years ago and saved on my other
HDD, as it may no longer be available at the Microsoft web site.
2007 Microsoft Office Add-in: Microsoft Save as PDF or XPS
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=7
When I hit the "Save As" in Powerpoint 2007, there are a few places to look
for this "save text as curves" option.
1. Logo > Save As > (choose PDF) > Options > Publish
2. Logo > Save As > (choose PDF) > Tools > Publish
It may not be relevant [1], but note that Jonathan said "export as
PDF", not "save to PDF". That may sound as nitpicking, but - for example
- LibreOffice Impress, i.e. their PowerPoint-like component, indeed also
has 'Export as PDF', not 'Save As ... PDF'.

HTH.

[1] I hardly know anything about PowerPoint/Impress and even less about
Adobe Illustrator, so take this with a <insert_your_standard_for_weights>
of salt.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 22:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
It may not be relevant [1], but note that Jonathan said "export as
PDF", not "save to PDF". That may sound as nitpicking, but - for example
- LibreOffice Impress, i.e. their PowerPoint-like component, indeed also
has 'Export as PDF', not 'Save As ... PDF'.
HTH.
[1] I hardly know anything about PowerPoint/Impress and even less about
Adobe Illustrator, so take this with a <insert_your_standard_for_weights>
of salt.
You bring up a good point, Frank, in that I had already noticed a *huge*
difference in the options of the two (actually three) PDF-creation commands
from PowerPoint 2007, at least with the "SaveAsPDFandXPS.exe" addon
installed.

a. Office icon > Print > (choose driver, e.g., "Microsoft Print to PDF")
b. Office icon > Save As > PDF or XPS
c. Office icon > Save As > Save as Type > PDF <== this has the most options

I did not see an "Export" option in Office 2007 though.
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 16:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Paul
2018-03-29 18:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
None of this really matters. Adobe Illustrator is a vector-based
graphics program, while PowerPoint "collects" files in various formats
to assemble them into a presentation. They're completely different in
almost every regard, so compatibility would be both unlikely and
unnecessary. Having used both programs for decades (since their
creation, in fact), I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is
rather curious and misguided.
Straight printing. Those people like four color separation, as
it suits the printing equipment. Those people go gaga if you don't
feed them the right kind of file.

http://samcoprinters.com/blog/4-colour-process-printing/

It really helps to understand the output device choice and how
it works. This first article, I don't understand the process yet.
There is a "CutContour" and there are colors. I still don't
understand what vinyl printing is. I'm unlikely to submit
work in the required format, or I will be costing the operator
hours of unnecessary preprep work, with a good possibility the
output will be completely wrong. Nobody wins when that happens.

https://www.rolanddga.com/blog/2016/06/17/15/18/the-perfect-setup-file-preparation-for-printcut-production

"Color Mode

It's always best to work on digital print projects in the
RGB color mode, rather than CMYK. Your digital printer is capable
of printing a much larger gamut of colors than that available
in the CMYK mode..."

Which isn't the same advice the offset printer guy would be giving you.

Then, as we see more examples of output, it suggests a process.
Printing of solid colors on something, followed by cutting an
output profile around the material. So it can be peeled off as
a decal.

https://www.rolanddga.com/blog/categories/inkjet-printers-and-printers-cutters

A person seeking the services of a "print person", will receive
quite good advice about acceptable formats for content.

PDF has this capability, but something has to drive it.

https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/using/color-profiles.html

Maybe you could "fake" a CutContour by using a particular color
that doesn't appear elsewhere in the artwork. Dunno.

How does PowerPoint handle color ? Is it capable of generating
the metadata needed for the print, metadata the print operator
is going to need ? This is why a lot of people will associate
a particular tool with "producing the input I need in the right
format". As some tools have color handling and others don't.
I'm sure there are shop operators who will giggle or kick you
out of the shop, if you bring in pptx.

You might order up a red Stop Sign with your PowerPoint
content, but it could be blood red or burnt sienna and
if you don't control the color precisely, then you'll
basically just accept whatever color comes (randomly)
out of the printer. When you control the color process
end to end (use a Spyder on the printer output to develop
a profile say), then you have enough control that the
printed object that comes back, is "within a tone" of
what your saw on the LCD screen on your computer.

Print operators become good at explaining this to people,
because in the end, it causes fewer arguments about
who pays for spoiled materials. It's much cheaper for
the operator, to make sure the customer does the three
hours of pre-prep.

*******

As an example of an "output expert", in my business, a
gentleman offers to come to your work, and train a
roomful of engineers for two hours, on what happens
in the whole process he will be providing, so the
quality of incoming materials to his business is better.
And he does the course for free. All he asks, is that
the room be full before he starts. He doesn't want
to give the lecture 30 times, to train 30 people total.

And when he "adjusts" your file, and you can't figure
out why seemingly some engineering parameters have
been changed behind your back, that two hour lecture
covers what he's been doing. He doesn't hide anything.
But you have to understand what his industry and ethos,
how they work, so you don't bump heads. Then you can
"out-guess" the dude, and make sure what you're doing
has sufficient margin that he can't ruin it.

On PCB technology, for example, people informally can tell
you some "minimum dimensions" to use on objects to
be etched, so that "low tech" facilities cannot
possibly ruin them. A facility with a "high tech" rating,
can produce output which has features only 30% of the
"duffer" category of shop. If I had a PCB with 3 mil
clearance between tracks on a wide bus, I probably
wouldn't be giving the business to that guy who
gave the lecture. He'd re-plot my file and short
the wires together.

*******

Summary: Talk to your print person.
Not to some guys on USENET.

The best results come from understanding
how the printer works. And what the "proper"
workflow is. An operator can "bend over backwards"
to accommodate "stupid input", but the spoiled
work produced, will mean no repeat business, and
two unhappy people.

Paul
Neil
2018-03-29 20:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Neil
None of this really matters. Adobe Illustrator is a vector-based
graphics program, while PowerPoint "collects" files in various formats
to assemble them into a presentation. They're completely different in
almost every regard, so compatibility would be both unlikely and
unnecessary. Having used both programs for decades (since their
creation, in fact), I'd say that even wanting to do such a thing is
rather curious and misguided.
Straight printing. Those people like four color separation, as
it suits the printing equipment. Those people go gaga if you don't
feed them the right kind of file.
http://samcoprinters.com/blog/4-colour-process-printing/
There are many misconceptions about process printing, and this is
another one. Using compliant PostScript devices, one can use a number of
formats, including RGB, CMYK and CMYK + any number of spot colors.
Post by Paul
   "Color Mode
    It's always best to work on digital print projects in the
    RGB color mode, rather than CMYK. Your digital printer is capable
    of printing a much larger gamut of colors than that available
    in the CMYK mode..."
Which isn't the same advice the offset printer guy would be giving you.
For good reason. The color gamuts of RGB and CMYK have differences.
There are colors in each that can't be reproduced in the other.
Professionals know this, and it is one reason why RGB inkjet printers
often include additional inks such as light cyan, light magenta, etc. It
is also why offset printers sometimes use spot color inks in addition to
the CMYK.
Post by Paul
A person seeking the services of a "print person", will receive
quite good advice about acceptable formats for content.
In fact, that's where a professional graphic artist will start. It's
clear to me that this is not a discussion generated by or among graphics
professionals.
Post by Paul
PDF has this capability, but something has to drive it.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. This isn't a PDF issue as much as it
is a processing issue.
Post by Paul
https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/using/color-profiles.html
Maybe you could "fake" a CutContour by using a particular color
that doesn't appear elsewhere in the artwork. Dunno.
Many sign producers have used CorelDraw for decades because the
manufacturers of the vinyl/screen/sign printing machines have modified
the equipment and software to include a cutting path which can be
defined in that combination.

The options being considered in this discussion only emphasize the lack
of experience in this field.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 22:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
The options being considered in this discussion only emphasize the lack
of experience in this field.
This is true, but it's also true that this is a low-tech question, where
the sign is only borders and fonts typical of most no-parking style road
signs, and the color is black and white, and the size is two-inch letters,
so most of the highly technical issues about rasterization and CMYK don't
really apply.

They apply, but they don't matter for the application.
Loading Image...

The only thing that matters is that the shop simply tells me they'll take
anything I give them, which is fair on their part.

But I want to give them something that has the least amount of expense in
setup for them, given that I can't change the format that is the starting
point, which is PowerPoint with the TrueType embedded fonts.

So the only question is what format can PowerPoint be converted to on
Windows that will result in an "import" into Adobe Illustrator with the
absolute least amount of setup time?
Neil
2018-03-29 23:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
So the only question is what format can PowerPoint be converted to on
Windows that will result in an "import" into Adobe Illustrator with the
absolute least amount of setup time?
I understand your interest in minimizing the effort required by your
printing company. As I pointed out a number of times, a properly
generated PDF file will not need to be imported into anything for
output, especially since your needs don't include specialized shapes.

So, the right tool to use is a good PDF creator, and since Adobe
created, defined and manages the PDF format, I've always used their
products for that purpose.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 00:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
I understand your interest in minimizing the effort required by your
printing company. As I pointed out a number of times, a properly
generated PDF file will not need to be imported into anything for
output, especially since your needs don't include specialized shapes.
So, the right tool to use is a good PDF creator, and since Adobe
created, defined and manages the PDF format, I've always used their
products for that purpose.
This is a good point that I hadn't thought of, which is Adobe makes both
the Illustrator tool and they defined the PDF format, so, we would think
that the PDF format should be able to be sucked in directly into Adobe
Illustrator with the absolute minimum amount of setup necessary.

I wonder if it's hard to scale the slide which I just measured on the
screen to be 6-1/4 inches on top and 9-1/2 inches long.

I don't have the aluminum blank with me, but I think they're 12x18, where I
think I said 18x24 before, but thinking about the size, I think they're
12x18.
Paul
2018-03-30 01:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
I understand your interest in minimizing the effort required by your
printing company. As I pointed out a number of times, a properly
generated PDF file will not need to be imported into anything for
output, especially since your needs don't include specialized shapes.
So, the right tool to use is a good PDF creator, and since Adobe
created, defined and manages the PDF format, I've always used their
products for that purpose.
This is a good point that I hadn't thought of, which is Adobe makes both
the Illustrator tool and they defined the PDF format, so, we would think
that the PDF format should be able to be sucked in directly into Adobe
Illustrator with the absolute minimum amount of setup necessary.
I wonder if it's hard to scale the slide which I just measured on the
screen to be 6-1/4 inches on top and 9-1/2 inches long.
I don't have the aluminum blank with me, but I think they're 12x18, where I
think I said 18x24 before, but thinking about the size, I think they're
12x18.
Draw dimensional marks on the drawing (away from the active area)
to show the dimensions ? Or, try to make the output print "to scale".
PDF pages specify a page size, which shows in the status bar.

You can set the page size in a PDF printer, to reflect what you
want, then select a scaling option for the print step. For example,
someone was asking about this yesterday, and I found a "Fit to Page"
option in the printing thing I was using. It's also possible
a percentage field is available for picking a precise value you like.

Some of the tools I've used in the past, they "respected" the scale
selected for the source document. If you worked within an 11"x17"
document on the screen, then at print time (at 100%) the print would
be pretty well exactly 11x17 inches. Minus the margins of course,
which would be properly subtracted so as to not upset the
preserved scaling of 1:1. You could still select a scale factor
at print time, like reduce the 11x17 to 8.5x11, but the result
is then "on your head" if it isn't right.

Some other tool flows are "scale challenged", and you'll have
a devil of a time getting the results you want. Indicate
the active area of the print (outside dimension of vinyl decal)
might give the operator some idea what you want. The operator
can then scale your drawing within Illustrator, then apply the
CutContour as required.

Paul
Neil
2018-03-30 03:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
I understand your interest in minimizing the effort required by your
printing company. As I pointed out a number of times, a properly
generated PDF file will not need to be imported into anything for
output, especially since your needs don't include specialized shapes.
So, the right tool to use is a good PDF creator, and since Adobe
created, defined and manages the PDF format, I've always used their
products for that purpose.
This is a good point that I hadn't thought of, which is Adobe makes both
the Illustrator tool and they defined the PDF format, so, we would think
that the PDF format should be able to be sucked in directly into Adobe
Illustrator with the absolute minimum amount of setup necessary.
Why do you feel the need to import a PDF file into Illustrator? For such
small signs, just do it in PowerPoint and create a valid PDF file for
your printing company.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 03:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil
Why do you feel the need to import a PDF file into Illustrator? For such
small signs, just do it in PowerPoint and create a valid PDF file for
your printing company.
Just to be clear, the sign shop doesn't care what we give them. When we
asked before we started this group project, the shop told us to give it to
them in any format. They didn't say this, but I'm sure they'd take a hand
drawing on a piece of paper, since it's just a black & white sign with text
and a border of the type and size and material that is a no-parking sign.

So we did one batch of signs in PowerPoint and then printed to PDF and gave
them the name of the font, and they printed the signs, but we were
horrified that they charged us manual layout in Adobe Illustrator for every
single sign (even though they're almost all alike).

I don't get to choose the starting point. It's a multi-page PowerPoint,
with one sign per page.

I don't get to choose the ending point, which is Adobe Illustrator.

All I want to do is eliminate the manual layout given that those are the
starting and ending points.

Only someone who has actually done it will know the answer because we all
know lots of things are supposed to work that don't work (for example,
PowerPoint says it outputs to WMF but I tried it with these signs and the
result was unusable).
Neil
2018-03-30 12:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Neil
Why do you feel the need to import a PDF file into Illustrator? For
such small signs, just do it in PowerPoint and create a valid PDF file
for your printing company.
[...]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
So we did one batch of signs in PowerPoint and then printed to PDF and gave
them the name of the font, and they printed the signs, but we were
horrified that they charged us manual layout in Adobe Illustrator for every
single sign (even though they're almost all alike).
The reason you were charged is that by telling them the name of the
font, you forced them to create the layout manually. If you create a
valid PDF file _with your font embedded_ there will be no need for them
to do anything other than send that PDF file to their printer. They
wouldn't even have to look at it first, so there would be no additional
charges.

You may benefit by hiring a graphic artist to do this work, because it's
quite clear that you don't understand the process at all.
--
best regards,

Neil
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-29 22:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
How does PowerPoint handle color ?
The color is a good question, which I had not mentioned, where, in this
case, it's a single-color sign (black and white) where the amount or
intensity of the black isn't an issue.

The rasterization versus vectorization also isn't an issue at these sizes,
which are 18"x24" typical of standard no-parking road sign types.

It has text, and a border graphic.
Nothing fancy.

The question is simply what format is best for Adobe Illustrator to just
suck in directly, with no work involved (if possible). They will print it
from Adobe Illustrator to vinyl, and then lay the sheet of vinyl on the
sign and manually peel off the excess vinyl, as I understand the process.

They tell me they can accept anything but I'm trying to reduce the layout
expense - which is the main reason for asking the simple question of what
formats from PowerPoint *directly* can be read into Adobe Illustrator for
the least amount of work on their part.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-29 23:00:59 UTC
Permalink
In message <p9jp19$qpn$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred
<***@ultred.com> writes:
[]
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
The color is a good question, which I had not mentioned, where, in this
case, it's a single-color sign (black and white) where the amount or
intensity of the black isn't an issue.
The rasterization versus vectorization also isn't an issue at these sizes,
which are 18"x24" typical of standard no-parking road sign types.
It has text, and a border graphic. Nothing fancy.
The question is simply what format is best for Adobe Illustrator to just
suck in directly, with no work involved (if possible). They will print it
from Adobe Illustrator to vinyl, and then lay the sheet of vinyl on the
sign and manually peel off the excess vinyl, as I understand the process.
Though it offends my engineering sensibilities, given the above context
- quite small, limited number of colours - I suspect a (high enough
resolution) raster format would involve the least amount of processing
for them: I assume, since they have told you they'll take anything
(except native powerpoint), and have already accepted a raster-format as
a backup message, that they have an edge-detection to cutter-driver
software. And if you're going for a raster format, there's little to
choose between them: BMP would need least processing to get to the
bitmap as it's basically raw image data anyway; GIF and TIF would make
for smaller files but otherwise be more or less identical. I'd avoid
JPEG because it is a lossy compression, and the artefacts are
particularly evident around edges.
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
They tell me they can accept anything but I'm trying to reduce the layout
expense - which is the main reason for asking the simple question of what
formats from PowerPoint *directly* can be read into Adobe Illustrator for
the least amount of work on their part.
I don't know what formats PPT can output in - quite possibly _not_ BMP,
GIF, or TIF. More or less anything that can "print" can produce PDF,
since you can use a PDF "printer", such as pdf995 (the one I use) or one
of many others - though I think recent versions of Office include a .pdf
generator anyway. (The odd time I've tried to use it, I've found it more
complicated than just "printing" to pdf995, but that could just be my
lack of familiarity with Office's PDF output format.) And the conversion
from PDF to cutter-driver _might_ involve less processing.

Will they send back a "proof" of some sort, showing what their
cutter-driver output will look like, for you to see?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

" ... but ... on the sub-ether radio, [it said] you're dead!"
"Yeah, that's right, I just haven't stopped moving yet." (link episode)
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 00:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Though it offends my engineering sensibilities, given the above context
- quite small, limited number of colours - I suspect a (high enough
resolution) raster format would involve the least amount of processing
for them: I assume, since they have told you they'll take anything
(except native powerpoint),
That's a good catch on your part John, in that they said they'd take
anything, even powerpoint. :)

I gave them Powerpoint last time I did this, about a year or so ago, and
they simply charged me for "layout work".

My goal is simply to reduce that "layout work" as I can't figure out why
they need to lay out anything since I already did all the layout - but they
manually laid it out, so I'm just trying to figure out what they can
directly input into their Adobe Illustrator that reduces their manual
layouts.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
and have already accepted a raster-format as
a backup message, that they have an edge-detection to cutter-driver
software. And if you're going for a raster format, there's little to
choose between them: BMP would need least processing to get to the
bitmap as it's basically raw image data anyway;
They did a set of signs for us a while ago, and they were perfectly fine
from the Powerpoint. The only thing I want to do is reduce their manual
layout on the Adobe Illustrator side.

Apparently they loaded the font, from what they told me, so I can't reduce
that step for them, and then they *manually* laid out the sign in Adobe
Illustrator.

From what they told me, I could have handed them a paper photo for all the
good that the PowerPoint layout I did was.

I think that's crazy, but that's why I'm asking you, since they don't mind
doing all the manual work in the world - but I mind it since they charge us
for that layout which is added for *each* variation of the sign we want.

That is, there is no amortization of labor with their process, which also
seems crazy to me.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
GIF and TIF would make
for smaller files but otherwise be more or less identical. I'd avoid
JPEG because it is a lossy compression, and the artefacts are
particularly evident around edges.
I'm perfectly happy with *any* format that Powerpoint will save, GIF and
TIF being two of them (but there are literally something like 30 formats
that Powerpoint 2007 will save).

Some of those format suck, by the way, since the WMF, for example, was
unreadable, and the DOC/RTF was only the text and not the graphics, so
maybe PowerPoint has about a dozen realistic outputs, GIF and TIFF being
two of them that I've tested to look fine by my standards.

This is why the question is what format can be input into Adobe Illustrator
that will *directly* work - without a shop needing to do *any* manual
layout (other than to size it appropriately).
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I don't know what formats PPT can output in - quite possibly _not_ BMP,
GIF, or TIF. More or less anything that can "print" can produce PDF,
since you can use a PDF "printer", such as pdf995 (the one I use) or one
of many others - though I think recent versions of Office include a .pdf
generator anyway. (The odd time I've tried to use it, I've found it more
complicated than just "printing" to pdf995, but that could just be my
lack of familiarity with Office's PDF output format.) And the conversion
from PDF to cutter-driver _might_ involve less processing.
From this discussion, you just made me wonder if my "aspect ratio" is
correct, where I don't know how to get the aspect ratio out of the
PowerPoint tool.

I just measured, manually, a portrait-mode slide on the screen, which
measured 6-1/4 inches on top and 9-1/2 inches long.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Will they send back a "proof" of some sort, showing what their
cutter-driver output will look like, for you to see?
They didn't last time, so I think the answer is no (it's a family operation
where everyone is neighbors so we don't want to complain).
mechanic
2018-03-30 10:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
They tell me they can accept anything but I'm trying to reduce the
layout expense - which is the main reason for asking the simple
question of what formats from PowerPoint *directly* can be read
into Adobe Illustrator for the least amount of work on their
part.
Why ask us? You shoud be negotiating this with the supplier.
Paul
2018-03-30 11:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Paul
How does PowerPoint handle color ?
The color is a good question, which I had not mentioned, where, in this
case, it's a single-color sign (black and white) where the amount or
intensity of the black isn't an issue.
The rasterization versus vectorization also isn't an issue at these sizes,
which are 18"x24" typical of standard no-parking road sign types.
It has text, and a border graphic. Nothing fancy.
The question is simply what format is best for Adobe Illustrator to just
suck in directly, with no work involved (if possible). They will print it
from Adobe Illustrator to vinyl, and then lay the sheet of vinyl on the
sign and manually peel off the excess vinyl, as I understand the process.
They tell me they can accept anything but I'm trying to reduce the layout
expense - which is the main reason for asking the simple question of what
formats from PowerPoint *directly* can be read into Adobe Illustrator for
the least amount of work on their part.
The PDF seems to work.

Here is a simulation.

1) Sample file made in LibreOffice Impress (the equivalent of PowerPoint).
I selected a paper size of 17"x11" and I don't know if I could
have selected a paper size that you wanted. In any case,
this is the PDF exported from LibreOffice. The fonts are embedded.

I didn't want to put the word "squirrel" at the top of the drawing,
and LibreOffice tries to embed LiberationSerif font for nothing.
I added the title "squirrel" and applied LibrationSerif font, so
it would have something to embed. This stopped one warning from
Acrobat Reader when I verified the document exported.

Loading Image...

2) This is Illustrator CS2 pulling in the PDF.

Loading Image...

Illustrator complains about both fonts in this case, even
though they're embedded. But it proceeds anyway to convert
the font to outlines and it shows the control points as
being selected.

The operator would then have to create a CutContour where the
red box I put around the outside is located. That's still going
to cost you a "layout" charge, simply because the machine
cannot start the printing process, unless a CutContour is
defined. Illustrator has at least two kinds of data stored
inside it, while PDF has only one. The Illustrator in a way,
is a "dual representation".

There's no point in me saving out the Illustrator .ai file,
as it really wouldn't have any meaning (i.e. I don't have
any more steps that I can realistically simulate).

If you remember the CS2 incident, this is what I used for
the simulation, in a VM. You need four files from this page,
a copy of QuickTime 6.0.0 from oldversions, your squirrel4.pdf,
to do the very quick Illustrator test.

https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html

This test doesn't prove much of anything, except that the PDF
does pull into Illustrator. If you needed to "re-purpose" the
artwork while it was inside Illustrator, it might be quite
a challenge to do anything with it. It doesn't look like the
importation is "seamless", at least, it doesn't give that
impression so far. But for your purposes, it might not matter.

I got the idea to do the test, from here. I didn't need to
tick any boxes like "Convert All Text" or "Convert All Strokes"
and the tool seemed to do more or less what you wanted automatically.

http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx

The edge of the font looks pretty weird, and I don't
know exactly how to describe how the font has been
converted. It doesn't look exactly like Bezier.

Loading Image...

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-30 20:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
The PDF seems to work.
Hi Paul,
I think you solved the technical question with that test where I don't have
Adobe Illustrator so I can't prove it out, so I have to use your proof
below!

Q: What's the best format to output from PowerPoint such that the result
can be printed to a 12x18" vinyl sheet from Adobe Illustrator with no
manual re-layout? http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
A: PDF with embedded TrueType fonts.

BTW, here is the sign.pptx original from Windows 10 MS Office 2007:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html

And this is the PDF with the whole font embedded:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html
Post by Paul
Here is a simulation.
1) Sample file made in LibreOffice Impress (the equivalent of PowerPoint).
I selected a paper size of 17"x11" and I don't know if I could
have selected a paper size that you wanted. In any case,
this is the PDF exported from LibreOffice. The fonts are embedded.
You bring up a good point, Paul, in that the "paper size" is probably
critical in that it must be, I would think, the same 'aspect ratio' as the
sign.

The sign is 12x18".
Looking at the signs.pptx file, I'm not sure where the "paper size" is set.

Oh, ok. That was easy. The paper size in that original PPTX is 12x18 inches
as shown here from the Office 2007 command sequence:
Ribbon > Design > Page Setup > Width=12 inches, Height=18 inches
Loading Image...

Thank you for bringing up that paper-size issue, where we just confirmed
that the paper size is the same as the sign size!
Post by Paul
I didn't want to put the word "squirrel" at the top of the drawing,
and LibreOffice tries to embed LiberationSerif font for nothing.
I added the title "squirrel" and applied LibrationSerif font, so
it would have something to embed. This stopped one warning from
Acrobat Reader when I verified the document exported.
https://s17.postimg.org/hne85qcbj/export_squirrel_pdf.gif
I see the "squirrel" file name, where, luckily, Powerpoint doesn't do that.
:)
Post by Paul
2) This is Illustrator CS2 pulling in the PDF.
https://s17.postimg.org/4yjxm1qrj/illus_CS2.gif
Illustrator CS2? I'm not familiar with that term. Googling, it seems to be
just the name of the suite of tools, namely "creative suite".

I'll just call that Adobe Illustrator, or AI.
Post by Paul
Illustrator complains about both fonts in this case, even
though they're embedded. But it proceeds anyway to convert
the font to outlines and it shows the control points as
being selected.
Hmmmm... why would it complain about fonts?
Are you on Mac? Or Linux? Or Windows?

The Mac can't read embedded fonts in MS Word documents.
Windows can. I don't know about Linux or even if AI runs on Linux.
[Note: I see later you're likely on Windows based on the techspot URL.]

The road-sign font "pack" for free public use is here:
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

The specific free road-sign font we chose is this:
Roadgeek Series B Regular

I wonder if Adobe Illustrator can just load that font "pack" directly?
Post by Paul
The operator would then have to create a CutContour where the
red box I put around the outside is located. That's still going
to cost you a "layout" charge, simply because the machine
cannot start the printing process, unless a CutContour is
defined. Illustrator has at least two kinds of data stored
inside it, while PDF has only one. The Illustrator in a way,
is a "dual representation".
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... so this "cut contour" is a "manual" step that is required.
Is it a fast step? Or a time-consuming step?
Post by Paul
There's no point in me saving out the Illustrator .ai file,
as it really wouldn't have any meaning (i.e. I don't have
any more steps that I can realistically simulate).
I agree. The only output from Adobe Illustrator that matters is the vinyl
printout.
Post by Paul
If you remember the CS2 incident, this is what I used for
the simulation, in a VM. You need four files from this page,
a copy of QuickTime 6.0.0 from oldversions, your squirrel4.pdf,
to do the very quick Illustrator test.
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... free?
Adobe Creative Suite 2 for Windows
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
Windows Serial number: 1130-1414-7569-4457-6613-5551

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... is there a catch?
Let me download that, as until this very moment, I didn't know that Adobe
Illustrator was free.
Post by Paul
This test doesn't prove much of anything, except that the PDF
does pull into Illustrator.
I think all that matters is you proved the design sucks in nicely, but the
fonts "may" be an issue.

The Roadgeek Series B Regular font set may need to be loaded separately
from the site: http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005
Post by Paul
If you needed to "re-purpose" the
artwork while it was inside Illustrator, it might be quite
a challenge to do anything with it.
Agreed. But nobody should be re-purposing inside of AI.
All they need to do from AI is print to the vinyl sheet.
Post by Paul
It doesn't look like the
importation is "seamless", at least, it doesn't give that
impression so far. But for your purposes, it might not matter.
I think you showed there are two manual steps:
1. CutContour
2. Fonts

How much time would you say these two steps would take for your sign?
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
Post by Paul
I got the idea to do the test, from here. I didn't need to
tick any boxes like "Convert All Text" or "Convert All Strokes"
and the tool seemed to do more or less what you wanted automatically.
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx
Paul ... that is a fantastic find!
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>

There's a critically important sentence in that page that nobody mentioned,
although it was alluded to, which is this:
"The native Adobe Illustrator file format (*.AI) is PDF, and as such,
AI is one of the best applications supporting direct import/export
to PDF."

That's it.
*There's our technical answer, in a single sentence.*
You can't beat the native format of Adobe Illustrator!
Post by Paul
The edge of the font looks pretty weird, and I don't
know exactly how to describe how the font has been
converted. It doesn't look exactly like Bezier.
https://s17.postimg.org/ekijzkbf3/font_edges.gif
The fonts still confuse me a bit, because 'embedding' the font in the PDF
'should' be enough for AI to use the right font, shouldn't it?

The document you found talks a lot about how to change the font but there's
nothing in that document about embedded fonts (the document seems to assume
the fonts are not embedded).

So the main question I will try to get the answer to is the following:
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]
Paul
2018-03-30 22:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Post by Paul
The PDF seems to work.
Hi Paul,
I think you solved the technical question with that test where I don't
have Adobe Illustrator so I can't prove it out, so I have to use your
proof below!
Q: What's the best format to output from PowerPoint such that the result
can be printed to a 12x18" vinyl sheet from Adobe Illustrator with no
manual re-layout? http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
A: PDF with embedded TrueType fonts.
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html
Post by Paul
Here is a simulation.
1) Sample file made in LibreOffice Impress (the equivalent of
PowerPoint).
I selected a paper size of 17"x11" and I don't know if I could
have selected a paper size that you wanted. In any case,
this is the PDF exported from LibreOffice. The fonts are embedded.
You bring up a good point, Paul, in that the "paper size" is probably
critical in that it must be, I would think, the same 'aspect ratio' as
the sign.
The sign is 12x18".
Looking at the signs.pptx file, I'm not sure where the "paper size" is set.
Oh, ok. That was easy. The paper size in that original PPTX is 12x18
Ribbon > Design > Page Setup > Width=12 inches, Height=18 inches
http://i.cubeupload.com/mALZ03.gif
Thank you for bringing up that paper-size issue, where we just confirmed
that the paper size is the same as the sign size!
Post by Paul
I didn't want to put the word "squirrel" at the top of the drawing,
and LibreOffice tries to embed LiberationSerif font for nothing.
I added the title "squirrel" and applied LibrationSerif font, so
it would have something to embed. This stopped one warning from
Acrobat Reader when I verified the document exported.
https://s17.postimg.org/hne85qcbj/export_squirrel_pdf.gif
I see the "squirrel" file name, where, luckily, Powerpoint doesn't do that.
:)
Post by Paul
2) This is Illustrator CS2 pulling in the PDF.
https://s17.postimg.org/4yjxm1qrj/illus_CS2.gif
Illustrator CS2? I'm not familiar with that term. Googling, it seems to
be just the name of the suite of tools, namely "creative suite".
I'll just call that Adobe Illustrator, or AI.
Post by Paul
Illustrator complains about both fonts in this case, even
though they're embedded. But it proceeds anyway to convert
the font to outlines and it shows the control points as
being selected.
Hmmmm... why would it complain about fonts?
Are you on Mac? Or Linux? Or Windows?
The Mac can't read embedded fonts in MS Word documents.
Windows can. I don't know about Linux or even if AI runs on Linux.
[Note: I see later you're likely on Windows based on the techspot URL.]
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005
Roadgeek Series B Regular
I wonder if Adobe Illustrator can just load that font "pack" directly?
Post by Paul
The operator would then have to create a CutContour where the
red box I put around the outside is located. That's still going
to cost you a "layout" charge, simply because the machine
cannot start the printing process, unless a CutContour is
defined. Illustrator has at least two kinds of data stored
inside it, while PDF has only one. The Illustrator in a way,
is a "dual representation".
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... so this "cut contour" is a "manual" step that is
required. Is it a fast step? Or a time-consuming step?
Post by Paul
There's no point in me saving out the Illustrator .ai file,
as it really wouldn't have any meaning (i.e. I don't have
any more steps that I can realistically simulate).
I agree. The only output from Adobe Illustrator that matters is the
vinyl printout.
Post by Paul
If you remember the CS2 incident, this is what I used for
the simulation, in a VM. You need four files from this page,
a copy of QuickTime 6.0.0 from oldversions, your squirrel4.pdf,
to do the very quick Illustrator test.
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... free? Adobe Creative Suite 2 for Windows
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
Windows Serial number: 1130-1414-7569-4457-6613-5551
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... is there a catch?
Let me download that, as until this very moment, I didn't know that
Adobe Illustrator was free.
Post by Paul
This test doesn't prove much of anything, except that the PDF
does pull into Illustrator.
I think all that matters is you proved the design sucks in nicely, but
the fonts "may" be an issue.
The Roadgeek Series B Regular font set may need to be loaded separately
from the site: http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005
Post by Paul
If you needed to "re-purpose" the
artwork while it was inside Illustrator, it might be quite
a challenge to do anything with it.
Agreed. But nobody should be re-purposing inside of AI. All they need to
do from AI is print to the vinyl sheet.
Post by Paul
It doesn't look like the
importation is "seamless", at least, it doesn't give that
impression so far. But for your purposes, it might not matter.
1. CutContour
2. Fonts
How much time would you say these two steps would take for your sign?
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
Post by Paul
I got the idea to do the test, from here. I didn't need to
tick any boxes like "Convert All Text" or "Convert All Strokes"
and the tool seemed to do more or less what you wanted automatically.
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx
Paul ... that is a fantastic find!
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>
There's a critically important sentence in that page that nobody
"The native Adobe Illustrator file format (*.AI) is PDF, and as such,
AI is one of the best applications supporting direct import/export to
PDF."
That's it. *There's our technical answer, in a single sentence.*
You can't beat the native format of Adobe Illustrator!
Post by Paul
The edge of the font looks pretty weird, and I don't
know exactly how to describe how the font has been
converted. It doesn't look exactly like Bezier.
https://s17.postimg.org/ekijzkbf3/font_edges.gif
The fonts still confuse me a bit, because 'embedding' the font in the
PDF 'should' be enough for AI to use the right font, shouldn't it?
The document you found talks a lot about how to change the font but
there's nothing in that document about embedded fonts (the document
seems to assume the fonts are not embedded).
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]
In the CS2 incident, Adobe pulled the plug on their Activation Server.
This would have left legitimate customers with no means to re-install
the software when they wanted. This was still "buy to own" software
back in those days, and not rental software.

You would think that most customers would have registered their
purchase, and Adobe could mail some sort of details to each
customer, with a means of resolving the issue.

Instead, Adobe put up copies of the executable installers,
along with some sort of "generic" keys for each tool. People
started downloading both the license keys, and the executables,
who had not purchased the product originally. (Like this is a surprise.)

After a while, Adobe sent out a press release indicating this
wasn't some hidden intent. This wasn't "trial" software. And at that
point, the software wasn't their current version. It was an older version.

The presumption at the time was, the keys were cracked, and the
Activation Server really wasn't achieving anything. People who might
have been pirating the stuff, were probably getting hacked executables
and so on. But there isn't any additional information or background
story, as to why Adobe chose this route to solve the "legit customer"
problem with having an Activation Server turned off. The whole
episode was... pretty weird.

Sites continue, to this day, to present links to copies of that software.
Adobe might have required a user to set up an Adobe Account (just like
when you used to do a Trial with Adobe), to "gate" the download of those.
People who present copies today like TechSpot, do it so users don't have
to get an Adobe Account just to get the files.

There is a trick to installing it. Each EXE has an unpacker. The
first CD also includes an installer that starts right away.

You can unpack the software, anywhere you want. I put the unpacked
materials on C:\CS2 for example. When "1" unpacks, it creates
a folder "Adobe Creative CS2" or similar, and underneath that,
you might see one tool folder.

When you unpack 2,3,4 EXEs, you can copy the two or one or four
folders, and put them under C:\CS2\Adobe Creative CS2\ in parallel
with the tools on 1. This builds a folder with everything in it,
and the installer "stops asking for CD 2".

You might want to practice in a VM first, until you get the hang of
it.

*******

Anyway, the purpose of the post, was to show that *some* representation
does open in Adobe Illustrator, if you pass a PDF.

The steps to post-process the work, to you or me don't seem onerous,
but the person actually doing the workflow will have their own
rules and methods of conducting business.

Generally, for embedded fonts, the intention is not to "carry" embedded
versions through multiple tools in a workflow. Any time a font needs
to be processed, the tool expects the full font to be available.
This "proves" the font is licensed for one thing, or that the
owner actually has a full copy of the font. The font itself may have
licensing bits, which indicate whether copies or embeds can be done

Full Font
|
Tool 1 Full Font
| |
+---- (embed font for ---- import --- Tool 2
print purposes) |
+--- embed subset...

That could be why the operator feels the need to "load" the
font for your "job". In the case of my LibreOffice experiment,
it was two fonts, because one font seems to be erroneously
referenced in the PDF.

Anyone who does a print job, can always request a
"layout" fee. Only if you sit in front of the printer itself
and orchestrate the print operation, would you expect there
to be no layout fee. And in modern times, fees are not charged
for "hours of work". They're book rates. And operator who
finishes quickly, simply pockets the excess income (more jobs
an hour means higher income). Your car mechanic works this
way. While the operator for your job, may choose to bill you
for hours, they could also apply a book rate for the work.

People who do that sort of work, use "Font Managers". A Font
Manager may have folders with 10,000 fonts in it, and the
Font Manager loads only a subset into the system. This covers
situations where the system doesn't actually behave well if
there are 10,000 fonts in the system folder. I think I did a
test like that once, and the OS was borked well before getting
to a high number like that. So they might not "load" your
font in a conventional sense, but make it an entry in
the Font Manager which is loaded as a subset for the job.

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-03-31 00:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
In the CS2 incident, Adobe pulled the plug on their Activation Server.
This would have left legitimate customers with no means to re-install
the software when they wanted. This was still "buy to own" software
back in those days, and not rental software.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for explaining that the link to the Adobe Illustrator Windows
software and license is legitimate, since I needed to verify that before
downloading it.

I thank you for being purposefully helpful and on topic and technically
competent, which is a joy to be able to converse with you. I snipped below
the rest of that history, but it was fascinating, so thanks for that.

It will take me some time to download, install, and test, so I might not
report back immediately, where you provided a way for me, for the first
time, to check out the answers to the questions myself, with the Windows
Adobe Illustrator software!
Post by Paul
Anyway, the purpose of the post, was to show that *some* representation
does open in Adobe Illustrator, if you pass a PDF.
Thanks for confirming the most reasonable process, which is to save from
Powerpoint a PDF (with embedded fonts, I would presume) and then suck
/that/ into Adobe Illustrator.
Post by Paul
The steps to post-process the work, to you or me don't seem onerous,
but the person actually doing the workflow will have their own
rules and methods of conducting business.
I can't get a straight answer out of the people doing the work, but once I
do it myself, I can tell them what they need to do, so having the tool will
make a huge difference in efficiency.
Post by Paul
Generally, for embedded fonts, the intention is not to "carry" embedded
versions through multiple tools in a workflow.
I read that with a bit of wonderment, Paul, as I would think, without
knowing much more than the little I know, that I would want to carry an
"embedded" font through the tool, which is why I selected to embed the
entire font set and not just the characters used in the document.
Post by Paul
Any time a font needs
to be processed, the tool expects the full font to be available.
Yes. This is why I selected to embed the full font set, because, as an
example, if I never used a pound sign, but if someone wanted a pound sign,
that font would be available only if I embedded the entire font set, where
file size is not an issue.
Post by Paul
This "proves" the font is licensed for one thing, or that the
owner actually has a full copy of the font. The font itself may have
licensing bits, which indicate whether copies or embeds can be done.
Yes, licensing "might" matter, but, as you may note, I'm using the Roadgeek
freely available road-sign fonts, which is what anyone would use if they
are making their own road signs.
Post by Paul
Anyone who does a print job, can always request a
"layout" fee. Only if you sit in front of the printer itself
and orchestrate the print operation, would you expect there
to be no layout fee.
The real issue is more "personal" than the layout fee, since nobody is
actually objecting to the manual work but me.

I can't fathom why /any/ manual work is needed if I do my job right, which
is to feed Adobe Illustrator with a PDF that has the entire font set
embedded, where you showed they still need to do a "cut" thing, which I
don't understand yet what it is - but which may make sense when I download
and install the free Adobe Illustrator tool suite.
Post by Paul
People who do that sort of work, use "Font Managers". A Font
Manager may have folders with 10,000 fonts in it, and the
Font Manager loads only a subset into the system.
I don't think the loading of fonts was ever the problem in this situation,
since that happens only once, and, as I mentioned, the fonts are freely
available on the net.

What I was objecting to was the claim of "manual layout" which seems
ridiculous since we already did /all/ the manual layout already!

:)

*For the tribal record, here are some files that we're using:*
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103517>

1. A screenshot of the template, where the users are instructed they can
change anything but the last line (the ordinance legalities) and the
outside border. For example, if they want to draw a picture, they can, but
nobody bothered. They all just changed the text, which is why PowerPoint is
the right tool for that job.
<http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif>

2. The powerpoint 2007 file with the entire font set embedded.
<http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html>

3. The PDF output from PowerPoint, with the entire font set embedded.
<http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html>

4. The entire "Roadgeek Series B Regular" font set, where distribution
requires only that the copyright notice be kept intact.
<http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005>

5. Free licensed copy of Adobe Illustrator:
<https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html>

6. Instructions for importing PDF into Adobe Illustrator:
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
<http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>

Search archived for leverage at:
<http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10>
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 02:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
The PDF seems to work.
Hi Paul,

I can report back that I installed Adobe Illustrator version 12.0.0 as per
your instructions in x65 Windows 10 Pro 1709, and it worked fine to read in
the PDF and convert the font to RoadGeek 2005 Series B such that the file
looks perfect inside of Adobe Illustrator! (no squirrel name issues!) :)

Loading Image...
Post by Paul
The operator would then have to create a CutContour where the
red box I put around the outside is located.
I don't understand this step yet but this is my first time ever looking at
anything inside of Adobe Illustrator.

The good news is that the file size is already 12"x18" inside of AI:
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
There's no point in me saving out the Illustrator .ai file,
as it really wouldn't have any meaning (i.e. I don't have
any more steps that I can realistically simulate).
I think I'll save to an ai-format file simply because that, I hope, will
suck into a latest-version Macintosh Adobe Illustrator program *with* the
now-embedded fonts.

Do you think that will work?

(NOTE: I have that question on the Mac groups but they're little babies so
you can never get anything except unhelpful ridicule out of any newsgroup
that has Apple people on it when you ask anything.)
Post by Paul
If you remember the CS2 incident, this is what I used for
the simulation, in a VM. You need four files from this page,
a copy of QuickTime 6.0.0 from oldversions, your squirrel4.pdf,
to do the very quick Illustrator test.
Paul - I didn't need Quicktime, although it said it might be needed when I
was installing. I installed without the second CD (I couldn't get it to
find it even though it was there), so I only was able to install Photoshop
9.0 and Adobe Illustrator 12.0.0 which is fine for our purposes.
Post by Paul
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
That was a fantastic find from you Paul. Absolutely fantastic.
Without that, we couldn't have moved forward!
Thanks!
Post by Paul
This test doesn't prove much of anything, except that the PDF
does pull into Illustrator. If you needed to "re-purpose" the
artwork while it was inside Illustrator, it might be quite
a challenge to do anything with it. It doesn't look like the
importation is "seamless", at least, it doesn't give that
impression so far. But for your purposes, it might not matter.
Paul,
The file looks *perfect* inside of Adobe Illustrator!
I can't see any problem with the layout whatsoever.
It's the right size. It has the right fonts.
Everything is just perfect.

*Can you help me understand why I might need the "cutContour" thing?*
What I need to learn next is how to simulate a "print to vinyl sheets".
Paul
2018-04-02 03:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
*Can you help me understand why I might need the "cutContour" thing?*
What I need to learn next is how to simulate a "print to vinyl sheets".
I was looking at an article about a Roland vinyl printer,
and that article mentioned setting a CutContour or similar,
to define where the vinyl printer will be cutting the decal.
You're allowed a complex shape, so it's not limited to
using a rectangular cut. In other Adobe tools, this might
be called a "path" and can be defined by laying down points
of the path. If the path is a spline curve, you can move or
rotate the control points to get the desired curve along
the path.

I was mainly curious to understand why they decided to use
Illustrator to drive the printing device. And I guess that
metadata, the path for the knife, is why they did it.

If you know the make and model of printer you'll be using
for the print, you might be able to fill in more of
the blanks in the workflow. In this article for example,
the .ai file feeds Versaworks.

https://www.rolanddg.eu/en/roland-world/blog/cutting-stickers-versaworks

Paul
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 04:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
I was looking at an article about a Roland vinyl printer,
and that article mentioned setting a CutContour or similar,
to define where the vinyl printer will be cutting the decal.
Hi Paul,
I have to thank you for all the wonderful help you provided, because,
really, without that tool, I wouldn't have realized how *easy* it is to
suck the file into Adobe Illustrator.

The file looks *perfect* inside AI, where all I had to do was:
1. Download, unzip, and install Adobe Illustrator, version 12.0.0.
<https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html>

2. Open the PDF file to swap the default <1> font to Roadgeek 2005 Series B
<Loading Image...>

3. The next step is to print to vinyl at a size of 12x18 inches.
<Loading Image...>
Post by Paul
You're allowed a complex shape, so it's not limited to
using a rectangular cut. In other Adobe tools, this might
be called a "path" and can be defined by laying down points
of the path. If the path is a spline curve, you can move or
rotate the control points to get the desired curve along
the path.
I was mainly curious to understand why they decided to use
Illustrator to drive the printing device. And I guess that
metadata, the path for the knife, is why they did it.
It's a good question why the shop is using Adobe Illustrator.
I know that they're an Apple-only shop, so that's one reason I guess.
But I don't know why, and, well, for our purposes, why might not matter
because I don't get to choose the starting point (PowerPoint) nor the
ending point (Mac Adobe Illustrator to vinyl).

At this point, thanks to your wonderful and patient and technically
competent advice, I have the file in an ai-format.

I don't know if the Mac can read a Windows ai-format file, but I'll mail it
to the shop to ask them if they can read it. I actually have to do it on
the "real" file, where this was just the template and not the score of
signs that is the "real" file.
Post by Paul
If you know the make and model of printer you'll be using
for the print, you might be able to fill in more of
the blanks in the workflow. In this article for example,
the .ai file feeds Versaworks.
https://www.rolanddg.eu/en/roland-world/blog/cutting-stickers-versaworks
Thanks Paul for that advice. I will ask for the make and model of the
printer when I send the shop the Windows ai-format file. It's a good
suggestion, which I had not thought of (I stay away from the shop unless I
have something to give them).

In summary, what's *amazing* is how great the file looks inside of Adobe
Illustrator. It's perfect. I don't see *any* reason for manual layout. Even
the *size* is right, at 12x18" (the PowerPoint template was done well.)'

a. The size is right
b. The fonts are right
c. The colors are right

What more could we ask for in terms of layout?
(I don't see *anything* that is needed from here except to print!)

Note, while we've almost solved this problem, I think these are the little
technical things that are still hanging on the side.

Q1: What's the trick to load the second CD? (not a critical problem)
Q2: Does Mac AI read in a Window AI file (only a Mac owner will know)
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 08:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
1. Can Adobe Illustrator read in a PowerPoint file from Windows?
2. If yes, can't it get the font out of the embedded font in the PPT file?
SOLVED:

Thanks for all your help, particularly from Paul, Neill, J. P. Gilliver
(John), Jonathan N. Little, & Char Jackson on the Windows newsgroups.

To give back to the team, here is a first-pass solution that can be
leveraged to others in the future via the tribal knowledge archives at
http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10
<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103517>
http://tinyurl.com/alt-windows7-general
<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103524>

This thread basically went nowhere mainly because Apple posters were
involved, but one or two people were helpful so it bears mention:
http://tinyurl.com/rec-photo-digital
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.photo.digital/zdVFRNwhdA8>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUMMARY: (sufficient to understand the main steps)
a. Install desired roadsign fonts (includes arrows, graphics, & text)
b. Install desired software (Microsoft Office & Adobe Illustrator)
c. Obtain desired 12x18-inch sign template
d. Modify template as desired by a score of different people on their PCs
e. Combine those modifications into a single file
f. Output PDF with embedded fonts from that file
g. Read that embedded-font PDF into Adobe Illustrator
h. Substitute the roadsign system fonts where necessary
i. Print to a vinyl-cutting 12"x18" sign printer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DETAILS: (sufficient for anyone to reproduce)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0. The test case is a powerpoint file expected to be provided as a
single-page
template to edited by more than a score of individuals, each of whom
owns
Microsoft Office and knows how to use it where all were instructed to
modify the template text and graphics as they see fit, with the
exception
that the bottom (legal) line and outside border and black color must
remain intact for consistency.
Loading Image...

Those score of individual pages were to be assembled into one large
multi-page file, which is to be provided to the printers who will print
to vinyl using Mac Adobe Illustrator, and who will apply the vinyl to
precut pre-drilled white aluminum 12-inch by 18-inch road sign blanks.

Note that the entire font set is embedded in the PowerPoint file
which allows the users to add approved arrows, text, & other graphics:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html (signs.pptx)

Note that the entire font set is also embedded in the PDF file:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html (signs.pdf)

Where the PDF file is what will be input into Adobe Illustrator
(because Adobe Illustrator does not accept Powerpoint files):

http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx>

Note also that the Office 2007 file is sized at 12-inches by 18-inches:
OfficeRibbon > Design > Page Setup > Width=12 inches, Height=18 inches
http://i.cubeupload.com/mALZ03.gif

This will result in the same size of 12x18 inches in Adobe Illustrator:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Ma3cnk.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Obtain & install the "Roadgeek 2005 Series B" font set.
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005/

Note: The only font file in that set you need is the 44KB file:
"Roadgeek 2005 Series B.ttf"

See the appendix for Windows font-installation procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Obtain & install the MS Office 2007 "Save as PDF or XPS" utility.

2007 Microsoft Office Add-in: Microsoft Save as PDF or XPS
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=7

Just run the SaveAsPDFandXPS.exe after installing Office 2007.
Note: Microsoft has discontinued support so you may need to use
a wayback link to find this (or a previously archived file).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Download the 4 files from:
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe
Size: 375638402 bytes (358 MB)
SHA256: 36DACE2549BDE94D7A45281380EEF453FD2AF38EDA19348FA3DE567549A696EC
SHA1: 1538166046E59DB6098F75C3196E84AD9310DEA1
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA256: 5862668CA45C0196777D3D4E2108D0A6F0750F6965769CB5730944D3520DBB54
Size: 427451410 bytes (407 MB)
SHA1: D06911267603474B43F3F39E4B00029787173962
-----
Name: CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe
Size: 346373903 bytes (330 MB)
SHA256: C662F1C431FAA33160523545FDA3BD58F29ED3616CB8E6D1835CCE810AD5AB30
SHA1: 54BA48723D657E4A86903ED2C876381488C8F945
-----
Name: CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe
Size: 431237012 bytes (411 MB)
SHA256: 921402DA55BFEF5E6E21DE2261F725FFE0A451153F453000FB3152635E1161BE
SHA1: 1C6CC05D49244ED1417B3E2C3136D4FD0B7F57E0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Unpack by right clicking & selecting 7Zip unpack to (choose the
default):
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Design Guide.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How To Install.html
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\How to Uninstall.pdf
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1\Read Me First.html
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
-----
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\.
-----
CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe unpacks with 7Zip to
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Adobe Solutions Network\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Documentation\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Goodies\.
.\CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1\Technical Information\.

Most people will likely just doubleclick on the downloaded files to
unpack:
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc2.exe
CreativeSuiteCS2Disc3.exe
CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe
But I right clicked and selected the 7Zip unpacker to unpack them,
because doubleclicking on them creates folders in your root hierarchy,
and I wanted to keep all the folders in the location I keep installers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Combine all files and directories into a single directory:
(Put all the folders should be in the same folder as Setup.exe is!)
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Setup.exe
(Otherwise you'll get incessant prompts for CD 2!)

These are the 4 main folders to ensure are in the same location:
.\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Setup.exe
.\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Adobe Illustrator CS2\.
.\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Adobe Photoshop CS2\.
.\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Adobe InDesign CS2\.
.\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Adobe Version Cue CS2\.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Run the "Setup.exe" installer for the Adobe Create Suite 2 set:
Tested on Windows 10 Pro, version 1709.
.\CreativeSuite\CS2\Adobe Creative Suite 2.0\Setup.exe
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. You'll get a warning that "QuickTime 6 is required to use the
multimedia features in the Adobe Creative Suite 2", which you
can ignore.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. Then it will require a Name (default = "Windows User") & serial number.
Name: Windows user
Company: blank
Serial Number 1130 1414 7569 4457 6613 5551
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. It will default to C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe
It says it will use up 2.62GB
I put mine in C:\app\editor\pic\cs2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. There will be a choice of what components to install:
[x] Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
[x] Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
[x] Adobe Photoshop CS2 and Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
[x] Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
11. Note: If you don't put all the folders in the same directory,
it will start installing and then ask:
"Please insert CD 2 to continue installation"
where if you hit the "OK" button, it will ask forever
for that CD 2.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
12. If you need to re-run the installer, don't worry.
After you doubleclick again on "Setup.exe",
Up pops an option to "Change/Remove the Adobe Creative Suite 2"
with the two options:
(_) Install, Re-install, or Uninstall Individual Adobe CS2 Components
(o) Uninstall all Adobe Creative Suite 2 Components

You can just switch that default to:
(0) Install, Re-install, or Uninstall Individual Adobe CS2 Components
(_) Uninstall all Adobe Creative Suite 2 Components
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
13. At that time, a form came up to "Change Individual Components", saying:
Please select the components of the Adobe Creative Suite 2 to modify.
Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
Adobe Photoshop CS2 & Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)

Where your 3 possible choices for each item are:
[No Change - Not Installed] or [Install] or [Re-Install]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
14. You won't get any desktop shortcuts, so you need to look for the
executables of interest to make shortcuts to them for all but
Adobe Illustrator which will have a shortcut created for you.

Adobe Illustrator CS2 (600MB)
C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Adobe Illustrator CS2.lnk
Right clicking on the shortcut to select properties shows:
Target: "C:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Support
Files\Contents\Windows\Illustrator.exe
Open In: "c:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Support
Files\Contents\Windows\"

Adobe InDesign CS2 (400MB)
"C:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe InDesign CS2\InDesign.exe"

Adobe Photoshop CS2 & Adobe ImageReady CS2 (450MB)
"C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\Adobe Photoshop CS2\Photoshop.exe"

Adobe Version Cue CS2 (300MB)
"C:\app\editor\pic\cs2\Adobe Version Cue CS2\bin\VersionCueCS2.exe"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15. I started Adobe Illustrator 12.0.0 on Windows 10 Creator's Edition.
C:\editor\app\pic\cs2\Adobe Illustrator CS2\Adobe Illustrator CS2.lnk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
16. To edit the PDF file that was output from PowerPoint 2007, which
used only the RoadGeek TrueType font and had the entire font set
embedded, run this command in Adobe Illustrator:
AI: File > Open > signs.pdf
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
17. You'll get the following message, to which you click "OK":
The document contains PDF objects that have been reinterpreted.
The font 1 is missing.
Affected text will be displayed using a substitute font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cV87Aa.gif

This pretty much proves that Adobe Illustrator doesn't respect the
fonts which Windows PowerPoint 2007 embedded in the PDF file.
<http://i.cubeupload.com/cV87Aa.gif>

Note that you see the word "Strokes" in the GUI:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DaYBLG.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
18. To "Find and replace the missing font in Adobe Illustrator",
AI: Type > Find Font
And then change the "Document" to "System" where AI asks:
Fonts in Document: <1*>
Change from: Replace with Font From: [Document]
Change to: Replace with Font From: [System]

Then change the font from: <1*>
Then change the font to: Roadgeek 2005 Series B
As shown below before I select the Roadgeek font out .
http://i.cubeupload.com/K6cBu8.gif

Then hit "Change All" and then "Done".

Which results in the perfectly faithful result after selecting
the Roadgeek font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/CnFAUN.gif
Loading Image...

And the fantastically beautiful result after I select the Roadgeek font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/CnFAUN.gif

In short, I am *confused* about that first step whether "strokes"
(whatever they are) are involved, but it doesn't matter because I can
substitute in the Roadgeek font and then it looks fantastically perfect
in
the Roadgeek-font layout!
http://i.cubeupload.com/RHsHn5.gif

Note: This file is needed in the Windows System Font folder:
"Roadgeek 2005 Series B.ttf"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
19. Save the file as an Adobe AI-format file for use in AI on the Mac.

Note: AI-format files do not seem to "embed" fonts.

In Adobe Illustrator, save the file as a Windows "ai" format file.
AI: File > Save As > Adobe Illustrator (*.AI) > signs.ai

A dialog box comes up to which you can say OK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
20. Save the file as an Adobe PDF-format file for use in AI on the Mac.
Note: The Adobe Illustrator PDF also do not seem to "embed" fonts.

In Adobe Illustrator, save the file as a Windows "ai" format file.
AI: File > Save As > Adobe PDF (*.PDF) > signs_ai.pdf
http://i.cubeupload.com/20nlCB.gif

A dialog box comes up to which you can say OK:
http://i.cubeupload.com/4EuM07.gif

There are many options, one of which is "Advanced" which said "Fonts":
"Subset fonts when percent of characters used is less than 100%"
whatever that means, but then it also said, below that in small print:
*"All fonts with appropriate permission bits will be embedded"*
http://i.cubeupload.com/p7qEWG.gif

So, you'd _think_ the fonts are embedded given that there are no
restrictions noted on the download site that are relevant.

However, if you subsequently *delete* the associated Roadgeek
Windows System Fonts and re-load the PDF into Adobe Illustrator,
it will complain about the missing fonts.

"Font Problems: Roadgeek2005SeriesB: Default font substituted
for missing font. This document "signs.pdf" uses fonts or
characters which are not available or are in a different format
than originally specified. Do you still wish to open this document?"
http://i.cubeupload.com/SdNyIh.gif

When you open it, you don't have your fonts anymore:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wHCGuc.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
21. At this point, you want to look at what formats you can export that
will have the font 'embedded' in them.

The "AI: File > Export" options don't look promising:
This list is:
AutoCAD Drawing (*.DWG)
AutoCAD Interchange File (*.DXF)
BMP (*.BMP)
Enhanced Metafile (*.EMF)
JPEG (*.JPG)
Macintosh PICT (*.PCT)
Macromedia Flash (*.SWF)
Photoshop (*.PSD)
PNG (*.PNG)
Targa (*.TGA)
Text Format (*.TXT)

As shown below:
http://i.cubeupload.com/tunL4e.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
How to install the RoadGeek font set in Windows 10 Pro System Font folder:

0. Starting with this PowerPoint file:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html (signs.pptx)

1. Which has, embedded in it, these Roadgeek 2005 Series B TT fonts:
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

2. Anyone on Windows can see & edit the file with those fonts in MS Office:
Loading Image...

Because Windows Microsoft Office "understands" those embedded fonts,
arrows, and other roadsign symbols.

Note: Mac Microsoft Office will *not* understand Windows-embedded fonts.

3. That "Roadgeek 2005 Series B" set is also embedded in the output PDF.
Loading Image...
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html (signs.pdf)

4. When I read that PDF into Adobe Illustrator, AI doesn't see the font.
Loading Image...

5. When I try to switch fonts, AI doesn't see that font anywhere.
http://i.cubeupload.com/qIAOAL.gif

6. When I go into the Windows Font directory, it's not there either.
Loading Image...

7. So I downloaded the zip file from the Internet of the free RoadGeek
fonts.
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005/

8. I extracted that zip file to the following set of files.
Loading Image...

9. I copied and pasted those extracted files to the Win10 Fonts folder.
Loading Image...

10. That copy and paste resulted in the fonts showing up in that folder.
Loading Image...

11. Then Adobe Illustrator was able to finally "see" that font.
Loading Image...

12. With the result being that the AI file is the same now as the original.
http://i.cubeupload.com/20nlCB.gif

Note: If you are reading in the PDF for the first time into AI,
then you will need to run the following additional
font-substitution steps:

A. This is what AI says when it reads in the Powerpoint-saved PDF:
The document contains PDF objects that have been reinterpreted.
The font 1 is missing.
Affected text will be displayed using a substitute font.

So on the one hand, that implies a *font* was substituted ...
http://i.cubeupload.com/cV87Aa.gif

B. However, on the other hand, I do see "strokes" listed in the GUI.
http://i.cubeupload.com/DaYBLG.gif

C. So it's confusing whether fonts or strokes are initially used, but
it does seem that the font is substituted when I run the command:
AI: Type > Find Font
as shown below before I select the Roadgeek font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/K6cBu8.gif

D. And the fantastically beautiful result after I select the Roadgeek font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/CnFAUN.gif

E. In short, I am *confused* about that first step whether "strokes"
(whatever they are) are involved, but it doesn't matter because I can
substitute in the Roadgeek font and then it looks perfect in
the Roadgeek-font layout!
http://i.cubeupload.com/RHsHn5.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 16:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
Which results in the perfectly faithful result after selecting
the Roadgeek font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/CnFAUN.gif
https://u.cubeupload.com/M873ot.gif
And the fantastically beautiful result after I select the Roadgeek font.
http://i.cubeupload.com/CnFAUN.gif
POWERFUL TAKEAWAYS FROM THE SOLUTION!

Based on our experiments and this email below, I think the shop was
purposefully evasive all this time simply because of this simple fact:
*There is almost zero manual layout effort*!

The only manual "layout effort" required is the minute it takes to download
and install the font set into the Mac and then to point to the Roadgeek
2005 Series B font once the PDF is opened in Adobe Illustrator.

That's a big deal, because it tells us the shop was handing us mush for an
explanation. Now all the obtuse explanations make complete sense.

This is what I got back by way of answer when I asked why the shop chose
Adobe Illustrator...
"The Vinyl Cutter uses a cut extension through Adobe Illustrator,
thus the need to format the art through Illustrator.
We program what is cut through Illustrator.
Your pdf files will work fine. I have to install the fonts
you gave, which is no big deal. Changing the fonts so that
the cut is easy. No new layout work will need to be done."

There's another astoundingly huge takeaway from this process, which is that
PowerPoint is the absolutely *perfect* tool for this job, not only because
we have a score of people editing the same file, but because that file can
have the fonts *embedded* (which is something Adobe Illustrator can't do!).

So, there are two huge takeaways that we learned in this solution.

1. PowerPoint is the *best* format possible for the layout task, and,
2. Adobe Illustrator has almost literally zero manual layout required!

Thanks for all your help to arrive at that simple, and yet powerful
conclusion, where I thank everyone for being an adult, and especially Paul
for enabling the solution by diligent research (which some people naysayed,
but which was instrumental at arriving at the truth).

Thanks!
Ragnusen Ultred
2018-04-02 19:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ragnusen Ultred
There's another astoundingly huge takeaway from this process, which is that
PowerPoint is the absolutely *perfect* tool for this job, not only because
we have a score of people editing the same file, but because that file can
have the fonts *embedded* (which is something Adobe Illustrator can't do!).
The shop has instantly been far more responsive now that I provided them
with the Adobe Illustrator file, where they emailed how I could eliminate
the need for them to load the font altogether, which I reproduce below for
the tribal knowledge record to benefit.
"You can embed a font in AI, by turning the font into a shape.
1) Select the font with the black arrow tool.
2) Go to the TYPE drop down menu at the top of the AI app.
3) Select "create outlines".
You would do this as you very last step ... after the layout
was correct and everything was spelled & set up correctly."

I tried it and was successful, where I outline the steps in more detail:

1. I started Windows Adobe Illustrator 12.0.0 (from the CS2 suite)
2. I opened the PDF from PowerPoint into Adobe Illustrator (AI)
3. In AI, I ran "AI: Type > Find Font" to find all the fonts
4. In that form I changed "Document" to "System"
Fonts in Document: <1*>
Change from: Replace with Font From: [Document]
Change to: Replace with Font From: [System]
Then change the font from: <1*>
Then change the font to: Roadgeek 2005 Series B
Then hit "Change All" and then "Done"
5. The Adobe Illustrator layout is now perfectly faithful to the original
6. In AI, I pressed "V" to get into the selection tool.
7. In AI, I pressed "Control+A" to select everything.
8. In AI, I pressed "Control+Shift+O" to create outlines
9. In AI, I pressed "Save As" to saved the *outlined.ai file
10. In AI, I also saved as a PDF to create the *outlined.pdf file
11. I checked with Ai: Type > "Find Fonts"
12. That showed there were no longer any fonts in the document

Voila! No fonts needed. A perfect layout.
No manual layout required whatsoever in Adobe Illustrator.
Just load the file, and print it to vinyl.

Efficiency at last!
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