Discussion:
A simple way to transfer photos from your phone to Windows without installing anything on either
(too old to reply)
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-22 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
I just accidentally ran into this very simple way to transfer photos from
your phone to Windows (and back) without installing anything on either

1. I gave a few $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus phablets as gifts over Christmas and
as a direct result I inherited a handful of new-to-me older Android phones,
even though my main phone is a circa 2012 S3 which works just fine for me
but which I mount on Windows to use in the native Windows file explorer
using the Windows "Add a network location" wizard.

2. One of that handful of old phones is a circa 2014 Moto G, running
Android 5.1, which I just plugged into Windows where I was surprised the
phone immediately showed up as its own "XT104" USB drive.
Loading Image...

3. Clicking on that drive shows the entire available file system mount
Loading Image...

4. That allows two way drag and drop between Windows and the phone
Loading Image...

5. Plugging it in again, I noticed an option pops up for something called
"Photos", which, seems to search the Android phone for photos to upload.
Loading Image...

6. That native "Photos" app then provides thumbnails to select which photos
to upload to previously defined directories and file name conversions on
Windows.
Loading Image...

7. The result is that, without installing anything on either the phone or
on Windows, it seems I can import anything I like using this Photos native
app.
Loading Image...

Generally I don't use Windows native apps (because they generally suck),
but this one doesn't seem to show any obvious drawbacks yet.

So I simply present this as a working system, that just works without
installing anything on either the phone or Windows, and ask if you know of
a better method of bi-directional drag and drop between your phone &
Windows?
PeterN
2018-02-22 13:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
I just accidentally ran into this very simple way to transfer photos from
your phone to Windows (and back) without installing anything on either
1. I gave a few $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus phablets as gifts over Christmas and
as a direct result I inherited a handful of new-to-me older Android phones,
even though my main phone is a circa 2012 S3 which works just fine for me
but which I mount on Windows to use in the native Windows file explorer
using the Windows "Add a network location" wizard.
2. One of that handful of old phones is a circa 2014 Moto G, running
Android 5.1, which I just plugged into Windows where I was surprised the
phone immediately showed up as its own "XT104" USB drive.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/1xt104_a.jpg
3. Clicking on that drive shows the entire available file system mount
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/2xt104b.jpg
4. That allows two way drag and drop between Windows and the phone
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/3xt104c.jpg
5. Plugging it in again, I noticed an option pops up for something called
"Photos", which, seems to search the Android phone for photos to upload.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/4xt104d.jpg
6. That native "Photos" app then provides thumbnails to select which photos
to upload to previously defined directories and file name conversions on
Windows.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/5xt104e.jpg
7. The result is that, without installing anything on either the phone or
on Windows, it seems I can import anything I like using this Photos native
app.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/6xt104f.jpg
Generally I don't use Windows native apps (because they generally suck),
but this one doesn't seem to show any obvious drawbacks yet.
So I simply present this as a working system, that just works without
installing anything on either the phone or Windows, and ask if you know of
a better method of bi-directional drag and drop between your phone &
Windows?
Yep. That works, I am not sure about iPhones though. i had iTunes
installed on my computers. So I don't know it that also works with
iPhones.
--
PeterN
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-22 14:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterN
Yep. That works, I am not sure about iPhones though. i had iTunes
installed on my computers. So I don't know it that also works with
iPhones.
When I plug an arbitrary iOS iPad into an arbitrary Linux desktop (Ubuntu
16.04), the file system (that is available to the user) is "mounted" after
a bunch of needlessly repeated "Do you trust this computer" requests on the
iPad, but when I plug those same iPads into an arbitrary Windows 10 desktop
(without iTunes), nothing useful happens.

Why does that work beautifully on Linux, and not at all on Windows?

I don't know, so if someone can answer that basic question, it would be
helfpul for us all.
PeterN
2018-02-22 19:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by PeterN
Yep. That works, I am not sure about iPhones though. i had iTunes
installed on my computers. So I don't know it that also works with
iPhones.
When I plug an arbitrary iOS iPad into an arbitrary Linux desktop (Ubuntu
16.04), the file system (that is available to the user) is "mounted" after
a bunch of needlessly repeated "Do you trust this computer" requests on the
iPad, but when I plug those same iPads into an arbitrary Windows 10 desktop
(without iTunes), nothing useful happens.
Why does that work beautifully on Linux, and not at all on Windows?
I don't know, so if someone can answer that basic question, it would be
helfpul for us all.
You need to install iTunes for Windows. It's a free DL from Apple. IIRC
iOS and Linux have a common ancestor. Unix.
--
PeterN
nospam
2018-02-22 19:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterN
Post by ultred ragnusen
When I plug an arbitrary iOS iPad into an arbitrary Linux desktop (Ubuntu
16.04), the file system (that is available to the user) is "mounted" after
a bunch of needlessly repeated "Do you trust this computer" requests on the
iPad, but when I plug those same iPads into an arbitrary Windows 10 desktop
(without iTunes), nothing useful happens.
Why does that work beautifully on Linux, and not at all on Windows?
I don't know, so if someone can answer that basic question, it would be
helfpul for us all.
You need to install iTunes for Windows. It's a free DL from Apple.
he has an abnormal hatred for itunes, even though it's not required.
Post by PeterN
IIRC
iOS and Linux have a common ancestor. Unix.
only the core of ios is unix.
Zaidy036
2018-03-01 06:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterN
Post by ultred ragnusen
I just accidentally ran into this very simple way to transfer photos from
your phone to Windows (and back) without installing anything on either
1. I gave a few $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus phablets as gifts over Christmas and
as a direct result I inherited a handful of new-to-me older Android phones,
even though my main phone is a circa 2012 S3 which works just fine for me
but which I mount on Windows to use in the native Windows file explorer
using the Windows "Add a network location" wizard.
2. One of that handful of old phones is a circa 2014 Moto G, running
Android 5.1, which I just plugged into Windows where I was surprised the
phone immediately showed up as its own "XT104" USB drive.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/1xt104_a.jpg
3. Clicking on that drive shows the entire available file system mount
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/2xt104b.jpg
4. That allows two way drag and drop between Windows and the phone
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/3xt104c.jpg
5. Plugging it in again, I noticed an option pops up for something called
"Photos", which, seems to search the Android phone for photos to upload.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/4xt104d.jpg
6. That native "Photos" app then provides thumbnails to select which photos
to upload to previously defined directories and file name conversions on
Windows.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/5xt104e.jpg
7. The result is that, without installing anything on either the phone or
on Windows, it seems I can import anything I like using this Photos native
app.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/6xt104f.jpg
Generally I don't use Windows native apps (because they generally suck),
but this one doesn't seem to show any obvious drawbacks yet.
So I simply present this as a working system, that just works without
installing anything on either the phone or Windows, and ask if you know of
a better method of bi-directional drag and drop between your phone &
Windows?
Yep. That works, I am not sure about iPhones though. i had iTunes
installed on my computers. So I don't know it that also works with
iPhones.
Use “AirDrop” for iPhone photo transfer
--
Zaidy036
ultred ragnusen
2018-03-01 08:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zaidy036
Use “AirDrop” for iPhone photo transfer
Except that this so-called AirDrop (which was bought from Android
developers) brand of ad-hoc file-transfer services doesn't even /work/ in
the real world...

NOTE: Apple simply says the real world is "not supported".
ultred ragnusen
2018-03-01 08:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Zaidy036
Use “AirDrop” for iPhone photo transfer
Except that this so-called AirDrop (which was bought from Android
developers) brand of ad-hoc file-transfer services doesn't even /work/ in
the real world...
NOTE: Apple simply says the real world is "not supported".
But, it's true that if the person who asked is safely ensconced within the
narrow confines of the walled garden, then the AirDrop brand (which was
bought from Android developers) of ad-hoc file-transfer services, will work
wonderfully.
nospam
2018-03-01 14:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Except that this so-called AirDrop (which was bought from Android
developers)
once again, you do not understand what airdrop actually is. only the
*name* was bought, not the underlying technology, which android
recently added under a different name and it doesn't do anywhere near
as much.
ultred ragnusen
2018-03-01 14:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
Except that this so-called AirDrop (which was bought from Android
developers)
once again, you do not understand what airdrop actually is. only the
*name* was bought, not the underlying technology, which android
recently added under a different name and it doesn't do anywhere near
as much.
As usual, you don't comprehend my words, as you are very well aware that
I've searched extensively in the past /exactly/ what the word "AirDrop"
meant to the Android developers and to Apple, and where I've said /many
times/ that it's a meaningless trademarked bought-and-paid-for word that
can and does mean anything the owners want it to mean.

In the past, the meaningless word "AirDrop" stood for an assemblage of
Android marketing services, while Apple legal says specifically that it
stands for their particular assemblage of "ad hoc file transfer services".

We've had this discussion so many times that I know you're just arguing for
arguments sake, since you know full well all of this, since I've told you
very many times that the word "AirDrop" is a meaningless brand name that
Apple bought from Android developers which Apple can use to mean anything
they want it to mean (which is the nature of trademarks).

I've also pointed you to the web pages where Apple specifically states that
any third party (which includes us) legally should /always/ use the
descriptor provided (of ad hoc file transfer services) the first time in
any document that the name "AirDrop" is used, since only Apple, legally, is
allowed to just use the word all by itself.

You know all this ... so you're just playing your silly games, again.
nospam
2018-03-01 14:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
Except that this so-called AirDrop (which was bought from Android
developers)
once again, you do not understand what airdrop actually is. only the
*name* was bought, not the underlying technology, which android
recently added under a different name and it doesn't do anywhere near
as much.
As usual, you don't comprehend my words,
other way around. you don't comprehend what others tell you.
Post by ultred ragnusen
as you are very well aware that
I've searched extensively in the past /exactly/ what the word "AirDrop"
meant to the Android developers and to Apple,
you only searched on the word. you have *zero* understanding about the
underlying technology (and not much more than that about the word).
Post by ultred ragnusen
You know all this ... so you're just playing your silly games, again.
that would be you.
ultred ragnusen
2018-03-01 15:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
You know all this ... so you're just playing your silly games, again.
that would be you.
Pot, kettle, black.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-03 13:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
You know all this ... so you're just playing your silly games, again.
that would be you.
Pot, kettle, black.
This can mean that the pot is as bad as the kettle - but doesn't mean
the kettle is clean!

Or in other words: just because the accuser may be equally guilty,
doesn't mean an accusation isn't a valid one. "Two wrongs don't make a
right" as they say.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13
Alan Browne
2018-03-03 14:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
--
“The less the prudence with which others conduct their affairs,
the greater the prudence with which we must conduct our own.”
Warren Buffet
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-03 20:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge your
address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it was from a
list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns, or something, in
the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.

Probably lost on non-UK readers though (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013
Alan Browne
2018-03-03 21:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Alan Browne
 A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like  a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge your
address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it was from a
list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns, or something, in
the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.
I got the "eighty p." easily enough. I had to look up the substance to
find the clever bit.
--
“The less the prudence with which others conduct their affairs,
the greater the prudence with which we must conduct our own.”
Warren Buffet
Paul
2018-03-03 22:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Alan Browne
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge your
address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it was from
a list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns, or
something, in the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.
I got the "eighty p." easily enough. I had to look up the substance to
find the clever bit.
A little Google gets the process rolling...

"bioluminescence-for-beverages
... Since ATP is a proxy for how much bacteria is present
"

That's not how you make beer of course :-)

That suggests the biochemist is aware that a beer would
be rich in ATP, as it's a marker of some sort of "activity" (fermentation???).

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/yeast-fermentation-and-the-making-of-beer-14372813

"ATP is a versatile molecule used by enzymes and other proteins
in many cellular processes. It is required for many chemical reactions,
such as sugar degradation and fermentation (Voet & Voet 2004)"

It suggests the biochemist has been in the lab too long,
and needs a break :-)

Paul
Alan Browne
2018-03-05 21:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Alan Browne
 A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like  a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge
your address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it
was from a list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns, or
something, in the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.
I got the "eighty p." easily enough.  I had to look up the substance
to find the clever bit.
A little Google gets the process rolling...
  "bioluminescence-for-beverages
   ... Since ATP is a proxy for how much bacteria is present
  "
That's not how you make beer of course :-)
That suggests the biochemist is aware that a beer would
be rich in ATP, as it's a marker of some sort of "activity"
(fermentation???).
<snipped>

You haven't come even close to the clever bit.
--
“The less the prudence with which others conduct their affairs,
the greater the prudence with which we must conduct our own.”
Warren Buffet
PeterN
2018-03-04 20:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Alan Browne
 A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like  a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge your
address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it was from a
list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns, or something, in
the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.
Not if they were involved in healthcare. ;-)
I was not a healthcare provider, but had many clients who were.
--
PeterN
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-05 21:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterN
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Alan Browne
 A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like  a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge
your address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it
was from a list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns, or
something, in the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.
Not if they were involved in healthcare. ;-)
I was not a healthcare provider, but had many clients who were.
It wasn't the ATP aspect I thought might not be obvious outside the UK,
it was the 80p aspect.

Though I should amend it to "some" adenosine; I suspect it's a _long_
time since 80p would get you a pint of _anything_ from a barman.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The desire to remain private and/or anonymous used to be a core British value,
but in recent times it has been treated with suspicion - an unfortunate by-
product of the widespread desire for fame. - Chris Middleton,
Computing 6 September 2011
Alan Browne
2018-03-05 21:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by PeterN
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Alan Browne
 A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd
like  a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
(Would have emailed but your signature doesn't say how to demunge
your  address:) yes, I thought so! I certainly didn't create it: it
was from a  list of something like 100 best jokes, or 20 best puns,
or something, in  the Independent (a British newspaper) some years ago.
Not if they were involved in healthcare. ;-)
I was not a healthcare provider, but had many clients who were.
It wasn't the ATP aspect I thought might not be obvious outside the UK,
it was the 80p aspect.
... which still isn't the "clever" bit...
--
“The less the prudence with which others conduct their affairs,
the greater the prudence with which we must conduct our own.”
Warren Buffet
PeterN
2018-03-04 20:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
Groan
--
PeterN
Alan Browne
2018-03-04 21:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Browne
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP."
Exceptionally clever.
Groan
Not sure you dug far enough.
--
“The less the prudence with which others conduct their affairs,
the greater the prudence with which we must conduct our own.”
Warren Buffet
Wolf K
2018-02-22 16:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
I just accidentally ran into this very simple way to transfer photos from
your phone to Windows (and back) without installing anything on either
1. I gave a few $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus phablets as gifts over Christmas and
as a direct result I inherited a handful of new-to-me older Android phones,
even though my main phone is a circa 2012 S3 which works just fine for me
but which I mount on Windows to use in the native Windows file explorer
using the Windows "Add a network location" wizard.
2. One of that handful of old phones is a circa 2014 Moto G, running
Android 5.1, which I just plugged into Windows where I was surprised the
phone immediately showed up as its own "XT104" USB drive.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/22/1xt104_a.jpg [...]
AFAIK, Windows sees all USB-connected cameras, including phones. But
unlike USB flash-drives, they do not have to be Removed. Just unplug
them when you're done.

The first time you connect a camera, Windows may "install" it, which I
take to mean that it loads some driver.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-22 18:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
AFAIK, Windows sees all USB-connected cameras, including phones. But
unlike USB flash-drives, they do not have to be Removed. Just unplug
them when you're done.
THANK YOU for that hint!

I hope it's true, because it's a pain to have to wait to shut it down
first, but where I've had to laboriously recover (e.g., Recuva) data big
time by not shutting down the drive with USB HDD drives after copying over
large amounts of data.

So it's nice to know (if it's true) that you can just unplug a phone
without worry of data corruption.

Thanks!
Paul
2018-02-22 20:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Wolf K
AFAIK, Windows sees all USB-connected cameras, including phones. But
unlike USB flash-drives, they do not have to be Removed. Just unplug
them when you're done.
THANK YOU for that hint!
I hope it's true, because it's a pain to have to wait to shut it down
first, but where I've had to laboriously recover (e.g., Recuva) data big
time by not shutting down the drive with USB HDD drives after copying over
large amounts of data.
So it's nice to know (if it's true) that you can just unplug a phone
without worry of data corruption.
Thanks!
We're always here to help you with your data corruption problems.

Just be patient when it happens, OK ?

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-24 01:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
We're always here to help you with your data corruption problems.
Just be patient when it happens, OK ?
Now that the Win10 is set back up with MS Office 2007, I'm gonna tackle
getting the DATA back off the old hard drive.

Do you think Microsoft Support phone numbers will handle a call on Win 10
corruption due to the Microsoft Update?
Paul
2018-02-24 01:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Paul
We're always here to help you with your data corruption problems.
Just be patient when it happens, OK ?
Now that the Win10 is set back up with MS Office 2007, I'm gonna tackle
getting the DATA back off the old hard drive.
Do you think Microsoft Support phone numbers will handle a call on Win 10
corruption due to the Microsoft Update?
They might.

Are you willing to let them remote in ?

Some people value their privacy more than they value a "repair".

Can you explain, succinctly, to the person on the phone,
what you did to the disk right after the incident ?

In other words, things that might have complicated the situation.

You may have tried that DISM command to back out
a half-finished update. That might have been one of them.
Maybe it was "revert" something-or-other. The first command is
to back out a patch that didn't actually install. The second
one would be backing out a patch that did install.

DISM /image:c:\ /cleanup-image /revertpendingactions

DISM /image:c:\ /remove-package /_packagename_

I think the image parameter implies the operation is an
offline one, and typically it might be /image:d:\ because
of the weird way drive letters are determine in WinPE
(what you're booted from, when trying to recover).

On a damaged disk, "CHKDSK" is a "repair-in-place" utility.
You *must* make a backup before using it, or possibly
forever lose access to the data. CHKDSK is *not* a utility
for casual usage. It's perfectly safe when the disk is
healthy... and quite deadly when the disk is sick. It's
a paradox to be resolved by creating a backup before you
use it. Even the twit on the phone should know that.

Before you allow a twit to work on that disk, you
back it up. In case my little description didn't paint
a vivid enough picture for you.

Even when you take a computer to the computer store or
to Geek Squad for repair, you back it up first!!!
No exceptions. You can use ddrescue for this, if you cannot
find anything else to use.

HTH,
Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-24 04:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by ultred ragnusen
Do you think Microsoft Support phone numbers will handle a call on Win 10
corruption due to the Microsoft Update?
They might.
Today the Microsoft Support Tier 2 technician tried to "repair" the Windows
10 Pro HDD that Microsoft Windows Update bricked about a month ago.
Loading Image...

They failed. It took /hours/, where the 2nd tier Microsoft Technical
Support (+1-800-642-7676) stuck with me the entire time.
Loading Image...

Since the OS wouldn't boot, screenshots were out of the question.

So I snapped scores of new photos with the spare Moto G Android phone of
exactly the procedure Microsoft followed during the hours it took to fail,
and I transferred those photos to this computer using the "it just works"
method described in this thread.
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
Are you willing to let them remote in ?
Yes. I already physically replaced the HDD that Microsoft Update bricked,
which needed Office 2007 Pro, where Microsoft Technical Support
(+1-800-360-7561) remotely installed and activated MS Office for me earlier
today.
Loading Image...

They remoted into my machine in order for them to manually install
Microsoft Office 2007 Pro for me earlier today, all the steps of which are
fully documented in screenshots for group tribal knowledge here.

SOLVED: How to download an ISO image for Office 2007 Pro in the year 2018
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/7ru4_AyhPCY>
Post by Paul
Some people value their privacy more than they value a "repair".
All I care about is my data, where they would be bored to tears if they
looked at it - but my data is important to me (pictures of the grandkids,
financial records, thousands of DIY photos, etc.).

I let Microsoft remote in a second time today because they needed to create
a bootable media for me on a known-good computer, we created 1709 bootable
DVD media to attempt to repair the bricked Microsoft Windows 10 Pro.
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
Can you explain, succinctly, to the person on the phone,
what you did to the disk right after the incident ?
Hmmm... I'm not known to be laconic. :)
I explained that I hit /every/ button that the recovery console provided
/except/ the one that wipes out everything and reinstalls Windows 10 Pro.
Post by Paul
In other words, things that might have complicated the situation.
The only thing I did that might complicate things is the DISM command you
suggested, where the 2nd tier support at Microsoft told me that they never
use DISM on a system that doesn't already boot.

I don't remember what the DISM command was that I used, but we documented
it in a prior psot so I can dig it up (they didn't seem to care since that
X:\ command prompt is the one step they never use, they told me.
Post by Paul
You may have tried that DISM command to back out
a half-finished update. That might have been one of them.
Maybe it was "revert" something-or-other. The first command is
to back out a patch that didn't actually install. The second
one would be backing out a patch that did install.
DISM /image:c:\ /cleanup-image /revertpendingactions
DISM /image:c:\ /remove-package /_packagename_
Yup. I ran whatever DISM you had suggested at the time, but they told me
that DISM won't do anything on a system that won't boot except to the
recovery console.
Post by Paul
On a damaged disk, "CHKDSK" is a "repair-in-place" utility.
You *must* make a backup before using it, or possibly
forever lose access to the data. CHKDSK is *not* a utility
for casual usage.
You can't run CHKDSK if the disk won't mount. :)
Post by Paul
It's perfectly safe when the disk is
healthy... and quite deadly when the disk is sick.
There's nothing wrong with the disk (AFAIK).

It's the Microsoft Update that bricked it. I suspect it's because I
customized the hell out of that system, to the point that Microsoft Updates
didn't work at all until recently. Then wham! Windows Update bricked the
system.

The tech support said it's because the HP machine I'm using doesn't have
drivers from HP for Win10 but I suspect it's just poor coding that can't
handle customizations.

Lesson learned - don't customize Windows 10 Pro too much.
Post by Paul
It's a paradox to be resolved by creating a backup before you
use it. Even the twit on the phone should know that.
There's no way to make a backup if you can't "mount" the data.
(I see your suggestion for ddrescue below... see below for details.)

We ended up making a support appointment at the nearest Microsoft Support
Center, which, in the Silicon Valley, is open the strangest hours!
Monday = Midnight to Midnight
Tuesday = Noon to 9:30PM
Wednesday = 10am to Midnight
Thursday = 10 am to 9:30 PM
Friday = 10 am to 9:30 PM
Saturday = 10 am to 9:30 PM
Sunday = Closed
Post by Paul
Before you allow a twit to work on that disk, you
back it up. In case my little description didn't paint
a vivid enough picture for you.
I can't imagine how to back up a disk that can't be mounted.
(I see your suggestion for ddrescue below... see below for details.)

As you know, I plugged it into an SATA/IDE/PATA adapter but a known good
Windows 10 computer wouldn't mount it.
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
Even when you take a computer to the computer store or
to Geek Squad for repair, you back it up first!!!
How do you back up a terabyte HDD that won't mount?
(I see your suggestion for ddrescue below... see below for details.)
Post by Paul
No exceptions. You can use ddrescue for this, if you cannot
find anything else to use.
Googling for "ddrescue" canonical site, it looks like it's dead:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/ddrescueview/

Maybe the GNU link is the canonical site?
http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/

It's a gunzipped tarball, so I'll deal with that.

Seems to have some associated utilities but they don't work on Windows.
DDRescue-GUI - A simple GUI (Graphical User Interface) for ddrescue.
http://www.hamishmb.altervista.org/html/downloads.php?program_name=ddrescue-gui

And they're dead links anyway:
Ddrescueview - A graphical viewer for GNU ddrescue log files.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ddrescueview/

Ddrutility - A set of tools designed to work with ddrescue to aid with data
recovery.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ddrutility/

I'll read up s'more on ddrescue. Thanks. We should probably take this out
of the r.p.d ng because it's off topic so I'll post a separate thread.
Paul
2018-02-24 07:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
I'll read up s'more on ddrescue. Thanks. We should probably take this out
of the r.p.d ng because it's off topic so I'll post a separate thread.
If you have something like Ubuntu, try "gddrescue".

The package name and the executable name, don't have
to be the same. That's what adds to the joy of figuring it out.

ddrescue is a utility that tolerates "CRC error" when reading
a disk. You can make one run after another, and the "log" file
keeps track of what sectors have not been recovered yet. Looking
at the log, you get some idea how much damage remains (in terms
of CRC errors).

The items are

source disk
destination disk
log file

You present the same log file to the tool, every time you
run the same source and dest. The log file gets updated when
hard-to-read sectors are finally captured. Eventually, after
enough passes, there will be some sectors that will never be
read. And you hope that those are replaced by zeros. Then,
if you run CHKDSK on that destination drive, it might be
able to restore enough of the disk, to get (most) of the
data off it.

ddrescue is mechanical and captures sectors. It doesn't know
or care whether the partition is NTFS or EXT4. Doesn't matter.

It relies on other tools, to make sense of what it captured.

The "logical" state of the file system is another matter
entirely. For example, my Windows 10 Insider partition that
had volume bitmap corruption and some damage to Extended Attributes,
I could use ddrescue on that hard drive, and it would complete
the transfer in only one pass (the log file would be clean).
No second pass would be needed. But in order to correct the
damage on the disk, it takes a couple CHKDSK commands to finish
the job.

I don't really care all that much, what happens to my
Windows 10 Insider installs, as Windows 10 is the "software
as a service" OS, and it should "run like a King". It's
simply not possible for a product like that, to be bricked...
Right ? :-/

This would be an example of backing up a hard drive, to an
"image file". The "image file" could be restored to a new hard
drive later, say. The "S" argument in this example is sparse.
For experiments of this kind, I can prepare /dev/sdb in advance
to contain mostly zeroed data files. When the backup is
written out, it need not take much space on the storage
device. This allows backup experiments with only a small amount
of real space on the destination. I think the -b parameter
sets the max transfer size. The command is adaptive and
adjusts the block transfer according to how "bad" the disk
is. The block size is increased, as long as it improves the
overall transfer rate. If the fastest transfer is happening with
4KB blocks, then it'll use 4KB transfers instead.

ddrescue -S -b8M /dev/sdb /mount/external/backup/sdb.raw /mount/external/backup/sdb.log

Because there was nothing wrong with the disk, I had no real
opportunity to craft a "second pass" command for it. So that
command is for the first pass. You can open the log in a
text editor, and see what remains to be transferred and whether
another pass is required.

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-24 07:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by ultred ragnusen
I'll read up s'more on ddrescue. Thanks. We should probably take this out
of the r.p.d ng because it's off topic so I'll post a separate thread.
If you have something like Ubuntu, try "gddrescue".
The fan died on my Ubuntu 16.04 laptop, but I can torrent the Ubuntu ISO
and boot off of it or even re-install VirtualBox (although it took a long
time before I had VirtualBox working on the original HDD).

I did torrent Knoppix though and burned it to a bootable DVD image,
although even with almost 2,500 peers, it still took a long while to
torrent.
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
The package name and the executable name, don't have
to be the same. That's what adds to the joy of figuring it out.
I think I'll try Knoppix first, and then, perhaps Recuva, where your advice
to back up the data /before/ handing the desktop tower to Microsoft is good
advice.
Post by Paul
ddrescue is a utility that tolerates "CRC error" when reading
a disk. You can make one run after another, and the "log" file
keeps track of what sectors have not been recovered yet. Looking
at the log, you get some idea how much damage remains (in terms
of CRC errors).
Personally, I don't think there is any /damage/ to the HDD; I think it's as
simple as Microsoft Windows Update screwed up, perhaps because I had
customized the heck out of the system (Winaero, Classic Shell, etc.).
Post by Paul
ddrescue is mechanical and captures sectors. It doesn't know
or care whether the partition is NTFS or EXT4. Doesn't matter.
Thanks for the ddrescue advice. I'm not sure yet if it's a standalone
bootable tool or something that runs inside of Windows or Linux but I'll
work it out after trying out Knoppix with the bad HDD connected via the
SATA adapter to the USB port on the desktop booted to Knoppix.
Loading Image...
Paul
2018-02-24 09:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Paul
Post by ultred ragnusen
I'll read up s'more on ddrescue. Thanks. We should probably take this out
of the r.p.d ng because it's off topic so I'll post a separate thread.
If you have something like Ubuntu, try "gddrescue".
The fan died on my Ubuntu 16.04 laptop, but I can torrent the Ubuntu ISO
and boot off of it or even re-install VirtualBox (although it took a long
time before I had VirtualBox working on the original HDD).
I did torrent Knoppix though and burned it to a bootable DVD image,
although even with almost 2,500 peers, it still took a long while to
torrent.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix1.jpg
Post by Paul
The package name and the executable name, don't have
to be the same. That's what adds to the joy of figuring it out.
I think I'll try Knoppix first, and then, perhaps Recuva, where your advice
to back up the data /before/ handing the desktop tower to Microsoft is good
advice.
Post by Paul
ddrescue is a utility that tolerates "CRC error" when reading
a disk. You can make one run after another, and the "log" file
keeps track of what sectors have not been recovered yet. Looking
at the log, you get some idea how much damage remains (in terms
of CRC errors).
Personally, I don't think there is any /damage/ to the HDD; I think it's as
simple as Microsoft Windows Update screwed up, perhaps because I had
customized the heck out of the system (Winaero, Classic Shell, etc.).
Post by Paul
ddrescue is mechanical and captures sectors. It doesn't know
or care whether the partition is NTFS or EXT4. Doesn't matter.
Thanks for the ddrescue advice. I'm not sure yet if it's a standalone
bootable tool or something that runs inside of Windows or Linux but I'll
work it out after trying out Knoppix with the bad HDD connected via the
SATA adapter to the USB port on the desktop booted to Knoppix.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix2.jpg
Since the disk is "suspected good" at the hardware level,
you can use "dd" on it. Knoppix will have a copy. Every Linux
distro has "dd" on it. The "dd" utility does not tolerate CRC
errors like gddrescue does. Which is fine with your hard drive.

sudo dd if=/dev/sda of=/media/sparedrive/bigdisk.bin bs=512 count=...

That's the general format for storing every sector on a hard
drive, as a "very large file" stored on a second disk.

If you have two 1TB drives, then obviously when you make the
/media/sparedrive partition, it will be slightly smaller than
the thing you are copying.

However, sometimes partitions support compression. You can
also chain commands together in the command line.

Adjust the arithmetic product of blocksize and count parameters,
so the entire disk is copied. Unlike gddrescue with its adaptive
transfer scheme, "dd" expects you to do the math and copy
as much or as little of the drive as you'd like. For example,
the second command here would transfer around 1.2GB or so.

sudo dd if=/dev/sda bs=512 count=12345678 | gzip -3 /media/sparedrive/bigdisk.bin.gz

sudo dd if=/dev/sda bs=1048576 count=1234 | gzip -3 /media/sparedrive/bigdisk.bin.gz

Since you're in Linux, you can try...

sudo fdisk /dev/sda

and get size info for the disk. Then, use the factor program,
to see what number makes a good fit for blocksize "bs" parameter.
(bs * count) must equal the total size info you got.

factor 123456789

*******

Let's try an example. This is a disk sitting on my Test Machine.

***@ubuntu:~$ sudo fdisk /dev/sda

Welcome to fdisk (util-linux 2.27.1).
Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them.
Be careful before using the write command.

Command (m for help): p
Disk /dev/sda: 477 GiB, 512110190592 bytes, 1000215216 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x72ca3ed1

Now I type "q" to quit, and move on to the next command.

***@ubuntu:~$ factor 512110190592
512110190592: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 7 11 13 257
***@ubuntu:~$

2^13 = 8192, which is a pretty small block size. Some newer
drives will run at the sustained transfer rate, even with that
small of a block size parameter. What I can do, is throw in
3^3 to make it a bit larger. 2^13 * 3^3 = 221184 bytes.

Dividing 512110190592 by 221184, completes the job (2315313)

To copy my 500GB specimen, I'd use

sudo dd if=/dev/sda of=/media/sparedrive/bigdisk.bin bs=221184 count=2315313

knowing that I'm getting every sector of the source. If the
destination drive is slightly too small, I have the option
of piping the output into a compression command of some sort.
There's possibly a p7zip-full package and a command line 7zip invocation
to achieve a higher compression ratio. But it would be
significantly slower.

There is also the pigz package, which is like gzip only it allows
more than one CPU core to be used. The ZIP that 7ZIP does, uses
a single core by comparison, when compressing. Some other 7ZIP
formats, use multiple cores.

sudo dd if=/dev/sda bs=221184 count=2315313 | pigz -3 -p 4 out.bin.gz

Anyway, I'm sure you'll figure out something.

To restore the disk later, it would be something like

unpigz -c out.bin.gz | sudo dd of=/dev/sda bs=221184 count=2315313

On some platforms, you can use if=- to stand for "stdin" and
of=- for "stdout". But it's also possible the command understands
the piping situation and the "missing" portion of the command,
to mean the same thing. That's why my last command doesn't have
an input file specification.

To do something like this (i.e. not specify if= and of=),
it's going to copy stdin to stdout.

cat sample.bin | dd > destination.bin

If I wanted to be more explicit I could do this

cat sample.bin | dd if=- of=- > destination.bin

or even

cat sample.bin | dd if=- of=destination.bin

would copy the file in chunks of 512 bytes. The pipe symbol has
a buffer which is larger than that, so the chunks are probably
of no consequence. Running dd with default bs=512 is usually
pretty slow and only does around 13MB/sec.

*******

There's also things like clonezilla. For example, making an exact
copy of one terabyte disk to a second terabyte disk. Sometimes you
get lucky, and they're the same size. Since you have the
sudo fdisk command to check the exact size of each drive, you
can check the drives before deciding what to do. I've not used
clonezilla, so cannot give a rundown on any "tricks".

https://www.addictivetips.com/ubuntu-linux-tips/clone-your-linux-install-clonezilla/

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 04:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Anyway, I'm sure you'll figure out something.
Hi Paul,

I picked up the desktop today from the Microsoft Retail Store.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_1.jpg

On my way home, I stopped off at Fryes, to pick up the two cables needed to
attach the second HDD, which was a red SATA III cable and a molex to SATA
flat cable.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/sata_cables_1.jpg

Putting the new HDD in the SATA1 slot of the motherboard, I can boot off of
the new drive which has the latest Windows 10 Pro ISO installed.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/boot_device_2.jpg

Now that it's confirmed by the Microsoft Retail Store that the operating
system the Windows 10 update bricked is a goner, there's really nothing
left to do but back up the data and then format the disk as a new disk.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system8f091.jpg

I don't need two terabytes, where I never even needed one terabyte, so, I
guess I'm going to learn how to RAID these things. :)
Char Jackson
2018-03-01 01:29:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:22:49 -0800, ultred ragnusen
Post by ultred ragnusen
Putting the new HDD in the SATA1 slot of the motherboard, I can boot off of
the new drive which has the latest Windows 10 Pro ISO installed.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/boot_device_2.jpg
Now that it's confirmed by the Microsoft Retail Store that the operating
system the Windows 10 update bricked is a goner, there's really nothing
left to do but back up the data and then format the disk as a new disk.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system8f091.jpg
I don't need two terabytes, where I never even needed one terabyte, so, I
guess I'm going to learn how to RAID these things. :)
In my experience, RAID is quite fragile. I've learned through experience
to avoid it on my personal machines.
--
Char Jackson
nospam
2018-03-01 04:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
Post by ultred ragnusen
I don't need two terabytes, where I never even needed one terabyte, so, I
guess I'm going to learn how to RAID these things. :)
In my experience, RAID is quite fragile. I've learned through experience
to avoid it on my personal machines.
raid is definitely *not* fragile. it's extremely robust, although not
the best choice in every situation.
ultred ragnusen
2018-03-01 05:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Char Jackson
Post by ultred ragnusen
I don't need two terabytes, where I never even needed one terabyte, so, I
guess I'm going to learn how to RAID these things. :)
In my experience, RAID is quite fragile. I've learned through experience
to avoid it on my personal machines.
raid is definitely *not* fragile. it's extremely robust, although not
the best choice in every situation.
Based on listening to the conversation about RAID from those of you who
have experience that I lack, I think I'll keep those snakes out of my
aquarium.

Thanks!

Since I now have far more disk space than I currently need, most likely,
I'll just dual boot with Ubuntu & Windows 10 using grub following one of
the many tutorials.

https://www.groovypost.com/howto/dual-boot-windows-10-linux/
1. Install Windows 10 Pro
2. Install Ubuntu alongside Windows
3. Set Grub to choose either one by default
Wolf K
2018-02-24 02:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Paul
We're always here to help you with your data corruption problems.
Just be patient when it happens, OK ?
Now that the Win10 is set back up with MS Office 2007, I'm gonna tackle
getting the DATA back off the old hard drive.
Do you think Microsoft Support phone numbers will handle a call on Win 10
corruption due to the Microsoft Update?
I doubt it, but always worth a try.

For recovering data off a trashed HDD: Does Windows recognise it, ie,
assign a drive letter? The even if Win can't read the data, you should
be able to get it. I recommend Recuva, which I've used with great
success. There are other data recovery programs, other people will no
doubt give their recommendations.

There are also Linux-based tools, which can be run off a live CD, but as
with Windows, Linux has to be able to recognise it (mount it).

If your system can't recognise the drive, you'll have to take it to a
tech shop that specialises in data recovery.

Good luck.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
nospam
2018-02-24 02:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
If your system can't recognise the drive, you'll have to take it to a
tech shop that specialises in data recovery.
false. there are recovery utilities that do not require a mountable
file system.
Paul
2018-02-24 03:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Wolf K
If your system can't recognise the drive, you'll have to take it to a
tech shop that specialises in data recovery.
false. there are recovery utilities that do not require a mountable
file system.
If you cannot get an identity string at BIOS level, it's dead.

I think that's what Wolf is referring to.

Paul
nospam
2018-02-24 03:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by nospam
Post by Wolf K
If your system can't recognise the drive, you'll have to take it to a
tech shop that specialises in data recovery.
false. there are recovery utilities that do not require a mountable
file system.
If you cannot get an identity string at BIOS level, it's dead.
then don't use a system that uses bios, a system that doesn't have such
a ridiculous limitation.
Post by Paul
I think that's what Wolf is referring to.
i don't know what he's referring to, but the statement as written is
false.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 06:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
then don't use a system that uses bios, a system that doesn't have such
a ridiculous limitation.
Just for the record, when the Microsoft Retail Store gave me back
my PC today...
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_1.jpg

I asked what they used, and the genius guy kept talking about bcdedit
(and they left a bcdedit backup binary file on the bricked HDD).
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system8f091.jpg

Here's the command options for bcdedit...

bcdedit /?

BCDEDIT - Boot Configuration Data Store Editor

The Bcdedit.exe command-line tool modifies the boot configuration data store.
The boot configuration data store contains boot configuration parameters and
controls how the operating system is booted. These parameters were previously
in the Boot.ini file (in BIOS-based operating systems) or in the nonvolatile
RAM entries (in Extensible Firmware Interface-based operating systems). You can
use Bcdedit.exe to add, delete, edit, and append entries in the boot
configuration data store.

For detailed command and option information, type bcdedit.exe /? <command>. For
example, to display detailed information about the /createstore command, type:

bcdedit.exe /? /createstore

For an alphabetical list of topics in this help file, run "bcdedit /? TOPICS".

Commands that operate on a store
================================
/store Used to specify a BCD store other than the current system default.
/createstore Creates a new and empty boot configuration data store.
/export Exports the contents of the system store to a file. This file
can be used later to restore the state of the system store.
/import Restores the state of the system store using a backup file
created with the /export command.
/sysstore Sets the system store device (only affects EFI systems, does
not persist across reboots, and is only used in cases where
the system store device is ambiguous).

Commands that operate on entries in a store
===========================================
/copy Makes copies of entries in the store.
/create Creates new entries in the store.
/delete Deletes entries from the store.
/mirror Creates mirror of entries in the store.

Run bcdedit /? ID for information about identifiers used by these commands.

Commands that operate on entry options
======================================
/deletevalue Deletes entry options from the store.
/set Sets entry option values in the store.

Run bcdedit /? TYPES for a list of datatypes used by these commands.
Run bcdedit /? FORMATS for a list of valid data formats.

Commands that control output
============================
/enum Lists entries in the store.
/v Command-line option that displays entry identifiers in full,
rather than using names for well-known identifiers.
Use /v by itself as a command to display entry identifiers
in full for the ACTIVE type.

Running "bcdedit" by itself is equivalent to running "bcdedit /enum ACTIVE".

Commands that control the boot manager
======================================
/bootsequence Sets the one-time boot sequence for the boot manager.
/default Sets the default entry that the boot manager will use.
/displayorder Sets the order in which the boot manager displays the
multiboot menu.
/timeout Sets the boot manager time-out value.
/toolsdisplayorder Sets the order in which the boot manager displays
the tools menu.

Commands that control Emergency Management Services for a boot application
==========================================================================
/bootems Enables or disables Emergency Management Services
for a boot application.
/ems Enables or disables Emergency Management Services for an
operating system entry.
/emssettings Sets the global Emergency Management Services parameters.

Command that control debugging
==============================
/bootdebug Enables or disables boot debugging for a boot application.
/dbgsettings Sets the global debugger parameters.
/debug Enables or disables kernel debugging for an operating system
entry.
/hypervisorsettings Sets the hypervisor parameters.

Command that control remote event logging
=========================================
/eventsettings Sets the global remote event logging parameters.
/event Enables or disables remote event logging for an operating
system entry.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-24 05:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by ultred ragnusen
Do you think Microsoft Support phone numbers will handle a call on Win 10
corruption due to the Microsoft Update?
I doubt it, but always worth a try.
Turns out that Microsoft Tier 2 tech support (+1-800-642-7676) walks you
through all the steps to try to recover a system bricked by Windows Update.

1. First they walk you through all the recovery options on the HDD itself,
2. Then they create a bootable DVD for you if you have another system,
3. Then they walk you through those same options using the bootable DVD

The recovery at #1 and #3 failed so I have an appointment at a Microsoft
Store in the middle of Silicon Valley, since I have to be at the convention
center the rest of the week anyway.
Post by Wolf K
For recovering data off a trashed HDD: Does Windows recognise it, ie,
assign a drive letter?
Nope. I tried two things that would work with most bricked systems.
A. It won't boot except to the blue Windows recovery consoles, and,
B. It isn't recognized except as an unknown USB drive when plugged into an
SATA adapter I bought at the local Silicon Valley Fryes for this purpose.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/pata_sata_ide_to_usb_adapter.jpg
Post by Wolf K
The even if Win can't read the data, you should
be able to get it.
Yup. You're correct. If some kind of recovery tool could "mount" the drive,
I'd be home free. I haven't tried a Linux rescue CD because my Linux laptop
fan died and I haven't replaced the fan yet.
Post by Wolf K
I recommend Recuva, which I've used with great success.
Thanks for that suggestion, where I googled for the canonical Recuva
location, which seems to be the Ccleaner site:
http://www.ccleaner.com/recuva
https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva/download
Post by Wolf K
There are other data recovery programs, other people will no
doubt give their recommendations.
I will follow your advice, and that of Paul, by backing up what I can, but
one issue with a dd command is that the new disk is 1TB while the old disk
is 1TB so it's not going to work unless I buy a third HDD of at least 1TB.
Post by Wolf K
There are also Linux-based tools, which can be run off a live CD, but as
with Windows, Linux has to be able to recognise it (mount it).
Thanks for that suggestion. Googling, I found Knoppix live DVD software
http://knoppix.net/
which has a bit torrent mechanism for faster downloading:
http://torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de:6969/

KNOPPIX_V8.1-2017-09-05-EN
http://torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/stats.html?info_hash=314a2c1e7b8f6fcdcf144ed60d0da0170753eec6

Since this is a brand new Win10 Pro installation, I had to dig up a bit
torrent client to use since the one recommended and linked to on the
Knoppix site above is a dead link:
http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html

So I downloaded and installed uTorrent, which I've used in the past for
Linux ISO downloads to use within Windows inside VirtualBox.
http://www.utorrent.com/downloads/complete/track/stable/os/win
Post by Wolf K
If your system can't recognise the drive, you'll have to take it to a
tech shop that specialises in data recovery.
Since I'll be in San Jose, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Mountainview, and Santa
Clara all this week, I already have an appointment at the Microsoft Store
at Westfield Valley Fair, 2855 Stevenscreek Blvd, Suite 1135, 2nd floor,
+1-408-454-5940
Mike S
2018-02-24 08:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Wolf K
Post by ultred ragnusen
Do you think Microsoft Support phone numbers will handle a call on Win 10
corruption due to the Microsoft Update?
I doubt it, but always worth a try.
Turns out that Microsoft Tier 2 tech support (+1-800-642-7676) walks you
through all the steps to try to recover a system bricked by Windows Update.
1. First they walk you through all the recovery options on the HDD itself,
2. Then they create a bootable DVD for you if you have another system,
3. Then they walk you through those same options using the bootable DVD
The recovery at #1 and #3 failed so I have an appointment at a Microsoft
Store in the middle of Silicon Valley, since I have to be at the convention
center the rest of the week anyway.
Post by Wolf K
For recovering data off a trashed HDD: Does Windows recognise it, ie,
assign a drive letter?
Nope. I tried two things that would work with most bricked systems.
A. It won't boot except to the blue Windows recovery consoles, and,
B. It isn't recognized except as an unknown USB drive when plugged into an
SATA adapter I bought at the local Silicon Valley Fryes for this purpose.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/pata_sata_ide_to_usb_adapter.jpg
Post by Wolf K
The even if Win can't read the data, you should
be able to get it.
Yup. You're correct. If some kind of recovery tool could "mount" the drive,
I'd be home free. I haven't tried a Linux rescue CD because my Linux laptop
fan died and I haven't replaced the fan yet.
Post by Wolf K
I recommend Recuva, which I've used with great success.
Thanks for that suggestion, where I googled for the canonical Recuva
http://www.ccleaner.com/recuva
https://www.ccleaner.com/recuva/download
Post by Wolf K
There are other data recovery programs, other people will no
doubt give their recommendations.
I will follow your advice, and that of Paul, by backing up what I can, but
one issue with a dd command is that the new disk is 1TB while the old disk
is 1TB so it's not going to work unless I buy a third HDD of at least 1TB.
Post by Wolf K
There are also Linux-based tools, which can be run off a live CD, but as
with Windows, Linux has to be able to recognise it (mount it).
Thanks for that suggestion. Googling, I found Knoppix live DVD software
http://knoppix.net/
http://torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de:6969/
KNOPPIX_V8.1-2017-09-05-EN
http://torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/stats.html?info_hash=314a2c1e7b8f6fcdcf144ed60d0da0170753eec6
Since this is a brand new Win10 Pro installation, I had to dig up a bit
torrent client to use since the one recommended and linked to on the
http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html
So I downloaded and installed uTorrent, which I've used in the past for
Linux ISO downloads to use within Windows inside VirtualBox.
http://www.utorrent.com/downloads/complete/track/stable/os/win
Post by Wolf K
If your system can't recognise the drive, you'll have to take it to a
tech shop that specialises in data recovery.
Since I'll be in San Jose, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Mountainview, and Santa
Clara all this week, I already have an appointment at the Microsoft Store
at Westfield Valley Fair, 2855 Stevenscreek Blvd, Suite 1135, 2nd floor,
+1-408-454-5940
You can do a startup repair and then a complete 10 repair install with a
free w10 dvd (you d/l the iso for).

w10 disk image
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10

If you can't boot from the hdd, boot from the dvd and run the startup
repair. If that is successful and you can boot from the hdd you can
reinstall all of the w10 system files while retaining your programs,
settings, and data, if needed.

w10 repair install procedure
https://neosmart.net/wiki/windows-10-repair-installation/
David B.
2018-02-24 09:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike S
You can do a startup repair and then a complete 10 repair install with a
free w10 dvd (you d/l the iso for).
w10 disk image
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
As I'm using a Mac, I was redirected to this URL to download the ISO:-

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO

Once I burn the ISO to a disk will it be 'bootable' or will additional
action be required first?
Post by Mike S
If you can't boot from the hdd, boot from the dvd and run the startup
repair. If that is successful and you can boot from the hdd you can
reinstall all of the w10 system files while retaining your programs,
settings, and data, if needed.
w10 repair install procedure
https://neosmart.net/wiki/windows-10-repair-installation/
That is helpful advice!
--
David B.
Paul
2018-02-24 17:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David B.
Post by Mike S
You can do a startup repair and then a complete 10 repair install with
a free w10 dvd (you d/l the iso for).
w10 disk image
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
As I'm using a Mac, I was redirected to this URL to download the ISO:-
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO
Once I burn the ISO to a disk will it be 'bootable' or will additional
action be required first?
It requires dancing a jig on one foot.

When Windows is installed on more than a 100 million machines, would
distributing a broken image work ? How many people would ever
figure it out ?

If 100 million people phone the Microsoft support line with
"help me convert the ISO I downloaded into something useful",
how many Tier 0 employees do you think that's going to take
to help them out ? The telephone switch board will be absolutely jammed
for months and months.

Common sense tells you "it's supposed to work".

*******

Doing that from a Mac, comes with a risk. This risk also extends to
users on WinXP and Linux as well.

Downloads are handled two ways. On more modern platforms, BITS is
used to supervise the download (Microsoft gives you a stub EXE downloader
to use, and it calls BITS). The Microsoft servers seem to work
well with the BITS option. The stub downloader handles any post-processing
duties. A typical stub might be on the order of 5MB in size.

But a number of years back, regular HTTP downloads from the Microsoft
site, would become truncated during download. Sometimes around the
2GB mark, both ends of the transaction would just "stop" (no error message!).
And the ISO file would be ruined. You might not notice until you burned
the ISO, and maybe ImgBurn complained the structure wasn't right. I
saw this on Linux. I saw it on WinXP.

I got a number that way so I've actually experienced this first hand.
I detected them purely on size, before doing anything with the result.
But other download attempts ran to completion, just like normal.
The problem is intermittent.

This has also happened to other, non Windows 10 files. The bug
seemed to spread from the Windows distribution servers, into
other servers in the Microsoft CDN. The catalog server started
doing it. I got a bad 500MB Cumulative one day via HTTP.

You can convert an HTTP type download, into a BITS download via Powershell.
It's the Powershell equivalent of "wget". And it seems to work properly.
Why this makes a different, who can guess. A Linux user can't do this,
but someone on a Windows box could use it.

http://superuser.com/questions/362152/native-alternative-to-wget-in-windows-powershell

(Start PowerShell, then try...)

Import-Module BitsTransfer <=== some older Windows maybe...
Start-BitsTransfer -source "http://urlToDownload"

where the URL to download would be pointing at the actual
file the catalog server is supposed to give you.

That's a way of converting an "unreliable" Microsoft
download, one where you were informed your download was
corrupted at some later point in time, into something
you can actually use.

Microsoft never admitted it was broken.

Microsoft never announced it was fixed.

Doing HTTP downloads from any other web site than a Microsoft
one, are not affected. It's not a networking stack problem
(especially as the bug is visible cross-platform).

A little trivia for you.

By all means, continue to download files via HTTP with your Mac.
But if the 2.5GB or 3.5GB ISO files seem "a tad short",
you have a place to start.

Even the breaking point in the download is not consistent.
It isn't a problem at exactly 2^31 for example. I did the
math on some of them, and no pattern of note emerged. And
it hardly ever breaks at the beginning.

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-24 19:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by David B.
Once I burn the ISO to a disk will it be 'bootable' or will additional
action be required first?
It requires dancing a jig on one foot.
The Tier 2 Microsoft support person at +1-800-642-7676 took control of
another Windows 10 Pro system to download, burn, test, and run the same
sequence of repair that we ran (and failed at) using the bricked Windows 10
Pro recovery console.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10dvd_repair.jpg

For the data, Knoppix worked just fine, but I am getting a very common
error from Knoppix on files that shouldn't have that error, where, when I
google for the error, NONE of the common causes can possibly be why I'm
getting that error.
Error splicing file: Value too large for defined data type.
Loading Image...

The odd thing is that /all/ the root causes of that common error on the net
don't apply here, because the Knoppix boot alone exhibits the problem when
I copy the file to /tmp staying completely within the Knoppix file system
for the destination file.
Loading Image...

On the net, the common reasons for that common error don't apply:
- It doesn't seem to be an NTFS issue since all the HDDs are NTFS
- It has nothing to do with the 4GB limit on file size
Post by Paul
When Windows is installed on more than a 100 million machines, would
distributing a broken image work ? How many people would ever
figure it out ?
The second tier Microsoft support tech told me it's pretty common, saying
the reasons are many.
1. It could be a driver conflict
2. It could be a setup conflict
3. It could be a CPU conflict (the AMD CPUs were harder hit than Intel)
4. It could be a corrupted HDD (which is always a possibility)
5. It could be that I customized something that Microsoft didn't like
etc.

The Microsoft Genius Bar personnel (or whatever they're called) should be
able to allow me to tell you more when I go to my appointment.
Post by Paul
If 100 million people phone the Microsoft support line with
"help me convert the ISO I downloaded into something useful",
how many Tier 0 employees do you think that's going to take
to help them out ? The telephone switch board will be absolutely jammed
for months and months.
I have to admit they spent at least an hour downloading, installing, and
activating Microsoft Office 2007 Pro yesterday, and a different tech spent
at least three hours trying to repair my bricked system. They will likely
spend a few more hours at the Microsoft Genius Bar (or whatever it's
called), where they'll have access to all the information in the support
ticket that has been filed to determine what the bug is due to.

I'll let you know more when I know more, but the net is that Knoppix was
the first data-recovery system I've tried, as per your suggestion to back
up the data BEFORE going to the Microsoft Genius Bar (or whatever it's
called). I'll try the other methods, where I'm confident that the data will
be recovered since there's nothing wrong with the hard disk drive as far as
I can tell.

Loading Image...
Paul
2018-02-24 20:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Paul
Post by David B.
Once I burn the ISO to a disk will it be 'bootable' or will additional
action be required first?
It requires dancing a jig on one foot.
The Tier 2 Microsoft support person at +1-800-642-7676 took control of
another Windows 10 Pro system to download, burn, test, and run the same
sequence of repair that we ran (and failed at) using the bricked Windows 10
Pro recovery console.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10dvd_repair.jpg
For the data, Knoppix worked just fine, but I am getting a very common
error from Knoppix on files that shouldn't have that error, where, when I
google for the error, NONE of the common causes can possibly be why I'm
getting that error.
Error splicing file: Value too large for defined data type.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix_error_01.jpg
One series of threads I could find, blamed the cause on

Ubuntu is just not building gcc with -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64

which causes 64-bit routines for file parameters to be use automatically.
You can declare such things discretely when programming, or
taking a legacy program and passing -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
helps in an attempt to fix them automatically.

*******

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcc-defaults/+bug/455122

The inode number in the example, is huge.

# on cifs mount...
19656 open("grape.c", O_RDONLY|O_NOCTTY) = 3
19656 fstat64(3, {st_dev=makedev(0, 23), st_ino=145241087983005616, <=== not a normal inode
st_mode=S_IFREG|0755, st_nlink=1, st_uid=3872,
st_gid=1000, st_blksize=16384, st_blocks=1, st_size=25,
st_atime=2009/10/18-19:13:16, st_mtime=2009/10/18-19:00:51,
st_ctime=2009/10/18-22:31:53}) = 0
19656 close(3) = 0

If we convert that number to hex, it's 0x020400000004AFB0.
It's remotely possible the inode number is actually 4AFB0
and the upper portion is "noise" from an uninitialized
stack parameter or memory location.

That's probably not the only root cause, but I wanted
to at least see an example of what they might be
complaining about.

In Linux, when NTFS is mounted, stat() results are faked
to make Linux "comfortable" with the IFS being mounted.
The Linux inode number, is actually formulated using
the #filenum of a file from $MFT. So the parameter in
fact, has a traceable origin. If you saw the errant
inode number in that case, you might be able to look up
in the $MFT, and see a "match" for the lower portion
of the number (the 4AFB0 part).

Since you say you're staying "on-platform" and not using
SAMBA/CIFS for this transfer, the result is highly
unusual. I've never seen this error in all the times
I've tried things with various Linux distros. I might
even be convinced to run a memory test as my first step
(memtest86+).

After the memtest completed one pass successfully,
I would change distros. And move on.

*******

The other possibility, is the source disk is damaged
somehow. But the way Windows handles filenum, it doesn't
allow the number to grow and grow. When you delete a file,
the "slot" is available for the next file creation. This
helps to keep the "epoch" of filenum values low. While
the filenum field is likely to be a large one (to suit
the declared maximum number of files that NTFS supports
in Wikipedia), users probably never see filenum
values remotely approaching the max_value.

On my Win10 C: drive with the build trees in the user folder,
the stats (as collected by the old Win2K era utility nfi.exe) are

Number of files: 1318185

Last file:

File 1341804

\Windows\servicing\Version\10.0.16299.245

So the highest #filenum (1341804) is not even remotely close
to being a 64 bit number in magnitude. And I don't even know
if a corruption on the source side could be interpreted that
way.

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 03:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
One series of threads I could find, blamed the cause on
Ubuntu is just not building gcc with -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
which causes 64-bit routines for file parameters to be use automatically.
Hmmmmmmmmm.... thanks for finding that Paul, which may mean that I
accidentally used a 32-bit Knoppix. I will have to check the Knoppix
because I didn't write on the DVD disc whether it was 32-bit or 64-bit
where I got Knoppix from this torrent.
http://torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de:6969/
Post by Paul
Since you say you're staying "on-platform" and not using
SAMBA/CIFS for this transfer, the result is highly
unusual.
Yup. No big deal though, because I bought a SATA III 6GB SATA cable plus a
4-pin Molex male to dual SATA female set of cables today, and now have
/both/ HDDs in the desktop where Windows is booting from SATA1 and the DVD
drive is on SATA2 with the bad boot HDD on SATA3..
Loading Image...

The bad-boot HDD seems to show up just fine in Windows as a non-boot data
drive, so I shouldn't need Knoppix, which I only used because I wanted to
back up my data BEFORE giving it to the Microsoft Retail Store genius bar
employees to fix.
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
I've never seen this error in all the times
I've tried things with various Linux distros. I might
even be convinced to run a memory test as my first step
(memtest86+).
The Microsoft Genius Bar retail store employees said they checked
everything, and it all checked out fine (memory, HDD, etc.). It was just
bricked. I asked specifically what they did, and they said they ran machine
diagnostics first, and then they booted to the X: drive (as we did in the
past) where they ran something they called bcdedit, fixboot, & scanos.

They said they tried to fix the master boot record (fixboot) and even tried
older versions of Windows 10 in addition to the Fall Creator's Update.
Post by Paul
After the memtest completed one pass successfully,
I would change distros. And move on.
I have the problem mostly solved since the Microsoft genius bar employees
couldn't get it to boot, so, the updated and bricked Windows 10 Pro OS is a
write off but everything else appears to be fine.
Loading Image...

Thanks for all your kind and expert help. It turns out that the OS was
bricked by the late January Microsoft Windows 10 Pro Update, where two
different employees at the store (once when I dropped it off, and again
when I picked it up, asking the same question) told me they get this at
least once a day, sometimes a few times a day, so it's pretty common in the
real world for a Windows 10 Update to brick the system.
Paul
2018-02-25 02:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Paul
Post by David B.
Once I burn the ISO to a disk will it be 'bootable' or will additional
action be required first?
It requires dancing a jig on one foot.
The Tier 2 Microsoft support person at +1-800-642-7676 took control of
another Windows 10 Pro system to download, burn, test, and run the same
sequence of repair that we ran (and failed at) using the bricked Windows 10
Pro recovery console.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10dvd_repair.jpg
For the data, Knoppix worked just fine, but I am getting a very common
error from Knoppix on files that shouldn't have that error, where, when I
google for the error, NONE of the common causes can possibly be why I'm
getting that error.
Error splicing file: Value too large for defined data type.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix_error_01.jpg
The odd thing is that /all/ the root causes of that common error on the net
don't apply here, because the Knoppix boot alone exhibits the problem when
I copy the file to /tmp staying completely within the Knoppix file system
for the destination file.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix_error_02.jpg
- It doesn't seem to be an NTFS issue since all the HDDs are NTFS
- It has nothing to do with the 4GB limit on file size
Post by Paul
When Windows is installed on more than a 100 million machines, would
distributing a broken image work ? How many people would ever
figure it out ?
The second tier Microsoft support tech told me it's pretty common, saying
the reasons are many.
1. It could be a driver conflict
2. It could be a setup conflict
3. It could be a CPU conflict (the AMD CPUs were harder hit than Intel)
4. It could be a corrupted HDD (which is always a possibility)
5. It could be that I customized something that Microsoft didn't like
etc.
The Microsoft Genius Bar personnel (or whatever they're called) should be
able to allow me to tell you more when I go to my appointment.
Post by Paul
If 100 million people phone the Microsoft support line with
"help me convert the ISO I downloaded into something useful",
how many Tier 0 employees do you think that's going to take
to help them out ? The telephone switch board will be absolutely jammed
for months and months.
I have to admit they spent at least an hour downloading, installing, and
activating Microsoft Office 2007 Pro yesterday, and a different tech spent
at least three hours trying to repair my bricked system. They will likely
spend a few more hours at the Microsoft Genius Bar (or whatever it's
called), where they'll have access to all the information in the support
ticket that has been filed to determine what the bug is due to.
I'll let you know more when I know more, but the net is that Knoppix was
the first data-recovery system I've tried, as per your suggestion to back
up the data BEFORE going to the Microsoft Genius Bar (or whatever it's
called). I'll try the other methods, where I'm confident that the data will
be recovered since there's nothing wrong with the hard disk drive as far as
I can tell.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/boot_device.jpg
I had another think about this, and the first question I've
got is

What utility is this ? "Finished" box.

http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix_error_01.jpg

I tried to match that dialog with some searches but was not
successful. Since Google has ruined some of their search tools
in the name of the Getty legal challenge, I can't even enter a
snip of the orange triangle and try to get a match on that.

I see a dialog box with the word "Finished" but I can't tell what
utility put that dialog box there.

I'm beginning to think you're running a scavenger, one that scans
through the disk for recognizable file headers and tries to
reconstruct files. Such tools, will produce a hundred thousand
useless unnamed fragments of files, if given a chance.
(I know, because I tried going through a folder of such
fragments once, and it was a total waste of time.)

So maybe before I jump to conclusions inappropriate for the
situation, I need some context, like what utility did that.

I don't think the "splicing" error is that bogus error based
on fstat or fstat64, and instead, it's a utility that does
actual splicing. Such utilities locate clusters of fragmented
files, they somehow conclude the disparate clusters belong
together and slap them together.

When you use "undelete" utilities (i.e. what you shouldn't
be using in this case), those take advantage of the fact the
slot for a file, only has one byte flipped indicating the
file is deleted. This leaves lots of information for reconstruction.
Including info about what clusters are used for the file. If the
(old, deleted) file does not "collide" with any new usage of the
disk resources, the undelete utility gives a "good" status for the
file, meaning "if I recover it for you, the file will be complete".
And that status is possible, because of the nature of the situation.

However, if the $MFT is lost, scanning through a fragmented disk
trying to do stuff based purely on file headers, is doomed from the
start. And that's a kind of scavenger behavior (i.e. not an undelete
utility). Can it take advantage of the $MFT ? It could certainly try.
That's if it can find the $MFT.

So maybe by context, it can tell there are too many clusters, or
the file it's reconstructing no longer makes sense (the series
of 4CC codes doesn't look right). Maybe a file type has a length
parameter, and the length parameter doesn't match the number
of clusters being spliced to rebuild the file.

Paul
nospam
2018-02-25 04:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
I'm beginning to think you're running a scavenger, one that scans
through the disk for recognizable file headers and tries to
reconstruct files. Such tools, will produce a hundred thousand
useless unnamed fragments of files, if given a chance.
(I know, because I tried going through a folder of such
fragments once, and it was a total waste of time.)
maybe the tools you used didn't work well. the better tools not only
find the names, but also the file/folder hierarchy, and can reconstruct
as much as it can.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 03:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
maybe the tools you used didn't work well. the better tools not only
find the names, but also the file/folder hierarchy, and can reconstruct
as much as it can.
The whole saga is over and done with since Microsoft can't recover the
operating system they, themselves, bricked, and where two different
Microsoft Retail store employees told me this is very common, where they
get a system bricked by the Windows 10 update at least once a day.

Interestingly, the Microsoft retail store in the middle of Silicon Valley
is directly across the aisle from the Apple Store:
Loading Image...

The Microsoft store is almost a direct copy of the Apple model, as far as I
can tell, only about twice the size.
Loading Image...

But, in both cases, I've never had any success bringing anything to either
the Microsoft or Apple "genius" employees, who seem to know far less than
you guys do (because they always fail - and I only bring the hard problems
to them because that's when I failed too).
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_1.jpg

PS: The Microsoft Store feeds you though, while the Apple store does not.
:)
nospam
2018-02-27 03:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
The whole saga is over and done with since Microsoft can't recover the
operating system they, themselves, bricked, and where two different
Microsoft Retail store employees told me this is very common, where they
get a system bricked by the Windows 10 update at least once a day.
big deal. there more than half a billion win10 users. once a day per
store is nothing.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Interestingly, the Microsoft retail store in the middle of Silicon Valley
the microsoft stores are almost always near apple stores, except
they're a *lot* less crowded, often with the only people in them being
staff.
Post by ultred ragnusen
The Microsoft store is almost a direct copy of the Apple model,
yep. everyone copies apple.
Post by ultred ragnusen
as far as I
can tell, only about twice the size.
that depends on the store. some apple stores are *huge* and the older
smaller ones are being expanded or relocated.
Post by ultred ragnusen
PS: The Microsoft Store feeds you though, while the Apple store does not.
i've never seen food offered in any microsoft store.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 06:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
The whole saga is over and done with since Microsoft can't recover the
operating system they, themselves, bricked, and where two different
Microsoft Retail store employees told me this is very common, where they
get a system bricked by the Windows 10 update at least once a day.
big deal. there more than half a billion win10 users. once a day per
store is nothing.
You talk like the developers I used to work with long ago, where they
figured bugs were just something that you have to learn to live with.

It's a big deal when a mandatory Microsoft Windows 10 Pro update bricks the
system. It's due to poor coding. Very poor coding. Lousy testing too.
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
Interestingly, the Microsoft retail store in the middle of Silicon Valley
the microsoft stores are almost always near apple stores, except
they're a *lot* less crowded, often with the only people in them being
staff.
Interestingly, when I dropped off my computer at the Microsoft Store
earlier this week for them to fail at unbricking the operating system, I
snapped a few pictures within seconds of each other of the two stores,
which are directly across the hall from each other in Santa Clara
California.

Microsoft:
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_6.jpg

Apple:
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/apple_retail_store_1.jpg
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
The Microsoft store is almost a direct copy of the Apple model,
yep. everyone copies apple.
The Santa Clara California Microsoft Store was a lot bigger than the Apple
store though, and there was a LOT of gaming going on, with kids everywhere
playing the Xbox for free and a special glass room just for seminars.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_5.jpg

But it did seem like a bigger copy of Apple, so I agree that they
capitalized on what Apple came up with (even though they told me they've
been there for many years).
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
as far as I
can tell, only about twice the size.
that depends on the store. some apple stores are *huge* and the older
smaller ones are being expanded or relocated.
This is the one in Santa Clara California, where the Microsoft Store is
clearly huge compared to the Apple Store.
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
PS: The Microsoft Store feeds you though, while the Apple store does not.
i've never seen food offered in any microsoft store.
They offered me a the coke you see in this picture...
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_2.jpg
nospam
2018-02-27 07:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
The whole saga is over and done with since Microsoft can't recover the
operating system they, themselves, bricked, and where two different
Microsoft Retail store employees told me this is very common, where they
get a system bricked by the Windows 10 update at least once a day.
big deal. there more than half a billion win10 users. once a day per
store is nothing.
You talk like the developers I used to work with long ago, where they
figured bugs were just something that you have to learn to live with.
all software has bugs.

the reality is that win10 bricking is extremely rare and in your case,
it's almost certainly due to something you did rather than microsoft's
error.
Post by ultred ragnusen
It's a big deal when a mandatory Microsoft Windows 10 Pro update bricks the
system. It's due to poor coding. Very poor coding. Lousy testing too.
you have no idea what the cause is, nor do the 'geniuses' at the
microsoft store.

but to re-use your usual (ignorant) line, microsoft obviously doesn't
test their software in the real world.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
Interestingly, the Microsoft retail store in the middle of Silicon Valley
the microsoft stores are almost always near apple stores, except
they're a *lot* less crowded, often with the only people in them being
staff.
Interestingly, when I dropped off my computer at the Microsoft Store
earlier this week for them to fail at unbricking the operating system, I
snapped a few pictures within seconds of each other of the two stores,
which are directly across the hall from each other in Santa Clara
California.
your pictures prove my point.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
as far as I
can tell, only about twice the size.
that depends on the store. some apple stores are *huge* and the older
smaller ones are being expanded or relocated.
This is the one in Santa Clara California, where the Microsoft Store is
clearly huge compared to the Apple Store.
invalid sample size.

the union square san francisco apple store was *huge*, much bigger than
any mall store. i haven't been to the new one yet, but it's reportedly
bigger.

there are even bigger apple stores than those.
Paul
2018-02-27 08:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
The whole saga is over and done with since Microsoft can't recover the
operating system they, themselves, bricked, and where two different
Microsoft Retail store employees told me this is very common, where they
get a system bricked by the Windows 10 update at least once a day.
big deal. there more than half a billion win10 users. once a day per
store is nothing.
You talk like the developers I used to work with long ago, where they
figured bugs were just something that you have to learn to live with.
all software has bugs.
the reality is that win10 bricking is extremely rare and in your case,
it's almost certainly due to something you did rather than microsoft's
error.
One of the recent issues (in 2018), was the refusal
to boot of older AMD processor based systems. This isn't
true bricking (ruining of file system), but it did prevent
people from using their computers. The user "Cameo" in the
group had an AMD system suffer that fate, and Cameo
figured out the necessary DISM command to reverse it
and got the system running again.

It's unclear exactly what kind of blooper hit Ultred's
machine, as the symptoms don't seem to match anything
I could find. A little offline DISM or SFC should have
repaired the OS base, assuming that the file system
really wasn't trashed.

My Windows 10 Insider about a week ago (I have two OSes
running Insider), both of them suffered Voumme Bitmap
trouble, as well as a series of Extended Attributes issues.
And Microsoft has been screwing around with Extended Attributes,
so it's not exactly a random occurrence. I was able to fix that,
and I was initially concerned I'd have to reinstall. But CHKDSK
came through.

The Win10 16299 is also making "bad" NTFS partitions now.
The $MFTMIRR is wrong. If you're making NTFS partitions while
running the latest version of Windows 10, I recommend going back
to Windows 7 and doing your partitioning there instead. I've had
to repair a number of $MFTMIRR entries on NTFS volumes.

It's funny that the level of "innocent" "tee hee hee" errors
is going up, at a time when we're so far along in Windows 10
development. I just can't figure out what these people
are smoking. It's worse than the webcam fiasco (where they
added a busted implementation of FrameServe to webcams,
and my webcam wouldn't work for three months). Even a chimpanzee
with one hand tied behind his back, could have backed out those
changes, apologized and fixed my webcam in a week or two, tops.
Instead, it was full speed ahead and "screw you" if you need
that webcam. "Software as a service". Um, OK. Gotcha.

Paul
nospam
2018-02-27 15:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by nospam
all software has bugs.
the reality is that win10 bricking is extremely rare and in your case,
it's almost certainly due to something you did rather than microsoft's
error.
One of the recent issues (in 2018), was the refusal
to boot of older AMD processor based systems. This isn't
true bricking (ruining of file system), but it did prevent
people from using their computers.
that one was rushed, and once they realized it was causing problems, it
was pulled.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 18:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
"Software as a service". Um, OK. Gotcha.
I'm not quite sure exactly what happened, but I think this was the
sequence.

1. I had Windows 10 Pro set up to never update.
2. Windows 10 Pro was just fine, stuck at Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106
3. All subsequent updates failed, but automatically backed themselves out
4. The 16299 Upgrade from Nov 2017 failed in Jan, but didn't back itself
out

Anyway, the hard drive and memory were checked out by Microsoft so there's
nothing wrong but the bricked operating system, which is no big deal since
I've bought a new terabyte disk, and now have two terabyte disks side by
side (which I might RAID once I clean them out - but I never did RAID
before and googling finds that there are a LOT of up-front decisions to
make).
Ken Blake
2018-02-27 23:16:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:35:09 -0800, ultred ragnusen
Post by ultred ragnusen
I've bought a new terabyte disk, and now have two terabyte disks side by
side (which I might RAID once I clean them out - but I never did RAID
before and googling finds that there are a LOT of up-front decisions to
make).
If you mean RAID 0 (striping), although it sounds like it should speed
up disk access, my experience is that it doesn't.

If you mean RAID 1 (mirroring), be aware that it is *not* a backup
solution. RAID 1 uses two or more drives, each a duplicate of the
others, to provide redundancy, not backup. It's used in situations
(almost always within corporations, not in homes) where any downtown
can't be tolerated, because the way it works is that if one drive
fails the other takes over seamlessly.

Although some people thing of RAID 1 as a backup technique, that is
*not* what it is, since it's subject to simultaneous loss of the
original and the mirror to many of the most common dangers threatening
your data--severe power glitches, nearby lightning strikes, virus
attacks, theft of the computer, etc. Most companies that use RAID 1
also have a strong external backup plan in place.

"Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea"
http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29
nospam
2018-02-27 23:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
I've bought a new terabyte disk, and now have two terabyte disks side by
side (which I might RAID once I clean them out - but I never did RAID
before and googling finds that there are a LOT of up-front decisions to
make).
If you mean RAID 0 (striping), although it sounds like it should speed
up disk access, my experience is that it doesn't.
then you did something wrong, perhaps using a shitty raid controller or
it was bottlenecked with a slow link, such as usb 2.

raid 0 definitely speeds things up, but doubles the risk of failure.
Post by Ken Blake
If you mean RAID 1 (mirroring), be aware that it is *not* a backup
solution. RAID 1 uses two or more drives, each a duplicate of the
others, to provide redundancy, not backup. It's used in situations
(almost always within corporations, not in homes) where any downtown
can't be tolerated, because the way it works is that if one drive
fails the other takes over seamlessly.
correct, although it's sometimes used in homes too.

the other issue is that the reliability of modern drives virtually
guarantees a failure on rebuild, particularly with raid 5.
Paul
2018-02-28 02:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
I've bought a new terabyte disk, and now have two terabyte disks side by
side (which I might RAID once I clean them out - but I never did RAID
before and googling finds that there are a LOT of up-front decisions to
make).
If you mean RAID 0 (striping), although it sounds like it should speed
up disk access, my experience is that it doesn't.
then you did something wrong, perhaps using a shitty raid controller or
it was bottlenecked with a slow link, such as usb 2.
raid 0 definitely speeds things up, but doubles the risk of failure.
With an Areca card and multiple HDD disks in Raid0, you can hit
2GB/sec sustained. The limitation on cards like that, was the onboard
processor. The clock rate on the processor was rising with time.
(At one time, the RAID0 was only 800MB/sec or so.)

The cards handle RAID5 (which needs XOR) as well as RAID0
(which doesn't need XOR), and the processor on the card probably
isn't adding a lot of value when running RAID0. But Areca
is pretty happy to have you buy the card anyway, and
the card supports RAID0 for the "racing crowd". The largest
card might have had 24 SATA connectors on it.

Even a single NVMe Flash storage product today can hit I/O
rates like that, and with a much cheaper infrastructure cost.
The Areca cards, the really big ones, were $1000 each.
Whereas regular people can afford to buy NVMe products
(suitable for scratch disks say). The NVMe wouldn't be a
particularly good format for archival storage (your
finished product), but might be good to make your movie
editor go fast.

I still haven't figured out what technical endeavor NVMe
was invented for, and the speed isn't always well matched
by the rest of the computer. (Lots of stuff
you do, won't be saturating your NVMe. For example, the
CRC32 hash program I use as a speed benchmark, only hits
1.3-1.5GB/sec, when an NVMe can do 2.5GB/sec. And I can't
think of too many other programs that work that fast.
Many other programs are happy to putter along at 300MB/sec.
If you're not a very good programmer, you should be able
to hit 300MB/sec. Hitting the higher rates takes work.)

Paul
nospam
2018-02-28 03:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
With an Areca card and multiple HDD disks in Raid0, you can hit
2GB/sec sustained.
that's not particularly good, particularly since single ssds are faster.
Post by Paul
The cards handle RAID5 (which needs XOR) as well as RAID0
raid 5 is dangerous with high capacity drives. do not use.
Post by Paul
I still haven't figured out what technical endeavor NVMe
was invented for,
because it isn't bottlenecked by sata.
Post by Paul
and the speed isn't always well matched
by the rest of the computer.
then the rest of the computer isn't very good.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-28 00:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
"Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea"
http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29
Yikes. I only googled and saw that there were a bunch of decisions to be
made.

May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?

In my case, I don't even need one Terabyte disk, but now I have two.

My other option is to make one disk a Linux disk and the other a Windows
disk, where I can skip the whole GRUB mess since the HP Pavilion will boot
off of any disk you tell it to at startup.
Wolf K
2018-02-28 00:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Ken Blake
"Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea"
http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29
Yikes. I only googled and saw that there were a bunch of decisions to be
made.
May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?
In my case, I don't even need one Terabyte disk, but now I have two.
My other option is to make one disk a Linux disk and the other a Windows
disk, where I can skip the whole GRUB mess since the HP Pavilion will boot
off of any disk you tell it to at startup.
Set up a back=up image schedule. I use Macrium, there are other
utilities with which to do this. Back up the HDD in the computer to the
external drive. You can set up a schedule, or invoke the backup manually.

If you want to use Linux, a 1TB derive is more than large enough for
dual booting. That's another story, though.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
nospam
2018-02-28 00:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Ken Blake
"Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea"
http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29
Yikes. I only googled and saw that there were a bunch of decisions to be
made.
that's an *extremely* outdated article that doesn't really say much,
and there aren't very many decisions to make, other than the variant of
raid to use, which depends on what you want out of it.
Post by ultred ragnusen
May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?
very much so, except that it's *not* a backup.
Paul
2018-02-28 02:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Ken Blake
"Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea"
http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29
Yikes. I only googled and saw that there were a bunch of decisions to be
made.
May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?
In my case, I don't even need one Terabyte disk, but now I have two.
My other option is to make one disk a Linux disk and the other a Windows
disk, where I can skip the whole GRUB mess since the HP Pavilion will boot
off of any disk you tell it to at startup.
This is like asking whether it's a good idea to
keep alligators in an aquarium tank.

No, it's not a good idea.

Yes, with planning, and practice in terms of what
to do if things go wrong, you could do it. People
keep snakes at home. At least, until in one case,
a rather large snake got loose and suffocated two
kids by strangulation in an adjacent apartment.

If you're going to use RAID, you practice on an
empty array, you practice "fire drills". What to
do if it says "degraded". What to do if it says
"failed", because the SATA connectors fell off.
(In some cases, you can recover from that.) Most
people who use RAID without reading the manual,
they usually get a "scary shock" some day, and the
people out there who panic easily, they're not
candidates for RAID.

You should back up your RAID, to an external disk.
Just like you would with a single drive. Now,
how much benefit does RAID provide, if you still
have to make backups ? Some people have the funny
idea that a RAID1 mirror is a backup. When it isn't.

As long as you understand *why* you've selected
a particular RAID config, you're going to be fine.
If you want to construct a huge RAID0 scratch
array, for some weird "raw" video format, that's
perfectly fine. Since you know it's a scratch disk,
if it dies, you only lose todays edits. Your
archival movie content is on another, larger backup drive.

There are also people, who run 16TB arrays full of
ripped movie content, and with *no backups*. They
can't afford backup drives. They could only
afford the drives for the array. And that's their
decision. They realize if the array fails, they're
going to have to rip from source DVDs all over again,
which could involve a lot of hours of work. As long
as they know this will (eventually) happen, why not
let them use RAID ? All it would take, is one power
supply failure (overvolting) to burn the entire array.
You can explain it to them, and they absorb the info
and accept the risk.

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-28 17:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
how much benefit does RAID provide, if you still
have to make backups ? Some people have the funny
idea that a RAID1 mirror is a backup. When it isn't.
Oh... <sheepish look on my face> ... yeah ... who would have a funny idea
that RAID is for backups ... not me (anymore anyway).

OK. So I won't bother with RAID. I will just make the new disk a Linux
disk, and dispense with grub to use this plan of action (after I back up
the data on the old disk).

1. I'll keep Windows on one HDD and put Linux on the other HDD.
2. I'll connect one of those HDDs to SATA port #1 on the motherboard.
3. Whatever HDD is connected to that port will always be the boot drive.
---
A. If I press <escape> during startup, I can select the other boot drive.
B. If I find myself doing that a lot, I'll swap SATA cables on the MB.

That's the simplest I think, and it doesn't require grub.
Ken Blake
2018-02-28 15:45:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:27:28 -0800, ultred ragnusen
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Ken Blake
"Why RAID is (usually) a Terrible Idea"
http://www.pugetsystems.com/articles?&id=29
Yikes. I only googled and saw that there were a bunch of decisions to be
made.
May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?
Not as far as I'm concerned. You get safety through backup.\
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-28 17:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?
Not as far as I'm concerned. You get safety through backup.\
I see that now, thanks.

The biggest problem with backup is that I have been burned by backing up to
HDD, which are sort of like having a battery backup to a battery, where
both suffer the same failings under the same conditions.

So I like to backup to DVD, which has the main problem of data being larger
than 4.7 GB in toto.

So the way I'll get around that will be to create a bunch of 4,482,269
kilobyte size-limited NTFS folders (using Veracrypt). Once any of those
folders gets filled with data, I'll burn it and move on to the next folder
(which keeps the data from growing too large for backup).

That's a KISS system that is as simple as possible given that I have no
desire for HDD backup because external HDDs suffer from even more problems
than do the internal HDDs.

I guess when SSDs are cheaper than DVD storage, they might be the next way
though, as long as they don't have proprietary power supplies because I
have some old HDDs that use proprietary cables which means they're useless
now, ten years later, when the power supply cable is lost or broken.
Ken Blake
2018-02-28 18:05:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 09:37:26 -0800, ultred ragnusen
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
May I presume to ask if "any" RAID method is useful in the home
environment, where all you really care about is safety of your data?
Not as far as I'm concerned. You get safety through backup.\
I see that now, thanks.
You're welcome. Glad to help.
Post by ultred ragnusen
The biggest problem with backup is that I have been burned by backing up to
HDD, which are sort of like having a battery backup to a battery, where
both suffer the same failings under the same conditions.
Were you burned by having backed up to an *internal* HD? As far as I'm
concerned, that's better than no backup at all, but just barely. Both
the original and the backup are vulnerable to simultaneous loss by
user error, nearby lightning strike, virus attack, even theft of the
computer.
Post by ultred ragnusen
So I like to backup to DVD, which has the main problem of data being larger
than 4.7 GB in toto.
DVDs are external media, so they are better than an internal hard
drive, but they are very vulnerable to failure. As far as I'm
concerned, much better is one or more external hard drives;
alternating between two is great.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-28 21:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
The biggest problem with backup is that I have been burned by backing up to
HDD, which are sort of like having a battery backup to a battery, where
both suffer the same failings under the same conditions.
Were you burned by having backed up to an *internal* HD? As far as I'm
concerned, that's better than no backup at all, but just barely.
I have never backed up to an /internal/ HDD, where I've been burned aplenty
by backing up to strange media (e.g., ZIP drives of the past) and to
removable media (e.g., USB sticks and USB drives) which tend to corrupt
themselves on Windows if you simply look at them askance.
Post by Ken Blake
Both
the original and the backup are vulnerable to simultaneous loss by
user error, nearby lightning strike, virus attack, even theft of the
computer.
Theft and lightning aren't a problem here in the hills above the Silicon
Valley, but a virus could easily be a problem with an internal HDD.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
So I like to backup to DVD, which has the main problem of data being larger
than 4.7 GB in toto.
DVDs are external media, so they are better than an internal hard
drive, but they are very vulnerable to failure. As far as I'm
concerned, much better is one or more external hard drives;
alternating between two is great.
What I like about DVD is that it doesn't require power to work, where the
power connectors of some of my HDDs (the older ones) is a PITA to
reproduce. Sure, I could disassemble the case and see what's inside and
then use the SATA/PATA/IDE to USB, but that still doesn't negate the fact
that Windows eats up the file system when/if you unplug it in a way that
Windows doesn't like (ask me how I know this).

If SSD gets to the price of DVD, that would be the next option, I would
think. One problem with bulk DVDs is that Costco doesn't sell the stack of
100 anymore... Sigh.
nospam
2018-02-28 21:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
What I like about DVD is that it doesn't require power to work,
yes it does.
Post by ultred ragnusen
where the
power connectors of some of my HDDs (the older ones) is a PITA to
reproduce.
sata, pata and scsi are all standard.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Sure, I could disassemble the case and see what's inside and
then use the SATA/PATA/IDE to USB, but that still doesn't negate the fact
that Windows eats up the file system when/if you unplug it in a way that
Windows doesn't like (ask me how I know this).
user error.
Ken Blake
2018-02-28 22:46:44 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 13:20:22 -0800, ultred ragnusen
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Ken Blake
Post by ultred ragnusen
The biggest problem with backup is that I have been burned by backing up to
HDD, which are sort of like having a battery backup to a battery, where
both suffer the same failings under the same conditions.
Were you burned by having backed up to an *internal* HD? As far as I'm
concerned, that's better than no backup at all, but just barely.
I have never backed up to an /internal/ HDD, where I've been burned aplenty
by backing up to strange media (e.g., ZIP drives of the past) and to
removable media (e.g., USB sticks and USB drives) which tend to corrupt
themselves on Windows if you simply look at them askance.
If you say so. But I've done this on multiple computers in many
versions of Windows for many years, and I've never had a single
problem with my backups. If you have, I think it's very likely that
the reason is that you're doing something very much wrong.
nospam
2018-02-28 18:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
The biggest problem with backup is that I have been burned by backing up to
HDD, which are sort of like having a battery backup to a battery, where
both suffer the same failings under the same conditions.
nonsense, and you're assuming only one single backup.

a good backup strategy includes multiple backups, with at least one off
site, so *not* the same conditions at all.
Post by ultred ragnusen
So I like to backup to DVD, which has the main problem of data being larger
than 4.7 GB in toto.
dvds are less reliable than hds and a major pain in the ass to use.
Post by ultred ragnusen
So the way I'll get around that will be to create a bunch of 4,482,269
kilobyte size-limited NTFS folders (using Veracrypt). Once any of those
folders gets filled with data, I'll burn it and move on to the next folder
(which keeps the data from growing too large for backup).
good luck when files can't be split up and even more good luck trying
to update it all any time anything changes.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 08:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
You talk like the developers I used to work with long ago, where they
figured bugs were just something that you have to learn to live with.
all software has bugs.
True dat.
Post by nospam
the reality is that win10 bricking is extremely rare and in your case,
it's almost certainly due to something you did rather than microsoft's
error.
What you say is probably true since I customized the hell out of that
Windows 10 Pro system such that I was able to do the impossible, which is
to stave off Windows updates for /years/, until the Spectre updates on
January 25th, 26th, and 27th, finally made it on to my system, and bricked
it when it rebooted on the 27th.
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Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
It's a big deal when a mandatory Microsoft Windows 10 Pro update bricks the
system. It's due to poor coding. Very poor coding. Lousy testing too.
you have no idea what the cause is, nor do the 'geniuses' at the
microsoft store.
I'm pretty sure it's poor coding on the part of Microsoft which couldn't
handle my customizations, which is why I'm trying to limit the necessary
customizations in this new install of Windows 10.

Remember, I was able to do the impossible, which was to stave off any
Windows updates, without having to use the metering trick on WiFi and
without having to pull the Internet connection in "off" hours.

It was a lot of settings that I changed though, perhaps fifty to a hundred,
so I'm not sure which particular ones are the ones Microsoft hated but I
kept the same Windows 10 Pro for a couple of years, as I recall (at least a
year).
nospam
2018-02-27 10:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
the reality is that win10 bricking is extremely rare and in your case,
it's almost certainly due to something you did rather than microsoft's
error.
What you say is probably true since I customized the hell out of that
Windows 10 Pro system such that I was able to do the impossible, which is
to stave off Windows updates for /years/, until the Spectre updates on
January 25th, 26th, and 27th, finally made it on to my system, and bricked
it when it rebooted on the 27th.
a foolish goal and more than likely, it was a significant factor that
caused your bricking.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 18:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
more than likely, it was a significant factor that
caused your bricking.
I checked my records on the old HDD now that it's mounted to Windows, where
it was stable at "Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106" for
years.

So I was able to do the impossible, for a while, which is stave off the
Windows 10 Pro updates.

I suspect Microsoft never coded the if-then-else to handle jumping from
Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106 to the 16299 Upgrade from
November 2017 (1709 release).

It's a bug on their part, almost certainly, since I only flipped the
switches that they provided.
nospam
2018-02-27 18:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
more than likely, it was a significant factor that
caused your bricking.
I checked my records on the old HDD now that it's mounted to Windows, where
it was stable at "Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106" for
years.
So I was able to do the impossible, for a while, which is stave off the
Windows 10 Pro updates.
that's a very, very stupid thing to do. you're not getting bug fixes,
security patches and new features.
Post by ultred ragnusen
I suspect Microsoft never coded the if-then-else to handle jumping from
Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106 to the 16299 Upgrade from
November 2017 (1709 release).
since just about nobody is in that situation, there's very little
reason to bother.

there are far more important problems to address, ones that affect many
more people.

you're using win10 *not* in the way it was designed to be used and will
end up with problems.

tl;dr user error.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 19:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
So I was able to do the impossible, for a while, which is stave off the
Windows 10 Pro updates.
that's a very, very stupid thing to do. you're not getting bug fixes,
security patches and new features.
The answer to that objection is that if I had wanted Microsoft updates, I
would have loaded them on my own.

Just like I do with my iPads to prevent the diarrhea that is iOS constant
updates of buggy releases (that even, as you know, Craig Federighi at Apple
admitted earlier this month) I don't want to load any operating system
update unless I know I want or need something on that operating system
update.

And that almost never happens.

Of my iPads, for example, they are still on 9.x and 10.x as I recall, and
they work just fine - where I would have left them at 7.0.0 had I known the
hell I would go through with them breaking Linux connectivity with 7.0.1
since iOS isn't even tested in the real world (where Apple support merely
says the real world "isn't supported" so they don't care what they break
outside the walled garden).

I do the same with Android, with all Google framework and Google Play
updates turned off - and that works just fine for me since I'll update what
I want when I want.
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
I suspect Microsoft never coded the if-then-else to handle jumping from
Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106 to the 16299 Upgrade from
November 2017 (1709 release).
since just about nobody is in that situation, there's very little
reason to bother.
It's a classic coding rule to abort gracefully when the unexpected occurs,
which Microsoft did - for years - but not recently.
Post by nospam
there are far more important problems to address, ones that affect many
more people.
You have the tunnel mindset of the classic Silicon Valley coder, where I
know hundreds of them, perhaps thousands. You have no concept of how to
code properly to handle exceptions if you actually believe that.
Post by nospam
you're using win10 *not* in the way it was designed to be used and will
end up with problems.
I flip the switches that Microsoft provides - so it's a bug if they can't
handle their own switches being flipped.

Nonetheless, after having been burned, I'm going to flip fewer switches
this time. Microsoft and Apple and Google and Ubuntu all have a way of
enforcing their rules, all of which I customize probably far more than does
the average person so I likely run into a lot more bugs than the average
person does.
nospam
2018-02-27 20:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
So I was able to do the impossible, for a while, which is stave off the
Windows 10 Pro updates.
that's a very, very stupid thing to do. you're not getting bug fixes,
security patches and new features.
The answer to that objection is that if I had wanted Microsoft updates, I
would have loaded them on my own.
that's not an answer. it's an excuse for foolishness.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Just like I do with my iPads to prevent the diarrhea
moving goalposts to trolling.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
I suspect Microsoft never coded the if-then-else to handle jumping from
Windows 10 Pro Version 1511 OS Build 10586.1106 to the 16299 Upgrade from
November 2017 (1709 release).
since just about nobody is in that situation, there's very little
reason to bother.
It's a classic coding rule to abort gracefully when the unexpected occurs,
which Microsoft did - for years - but not recently.
there's no way to cover every possible situation.

rare ones, particularly ones that are the result of users going out of
their way to break things, are not a high priority.

in fact, they're best ignored. anyone circumventing the normal update
process should know the risks they're taking and be able to deal with
the inevitable problems that will occur.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
there are far more important problems to address, ones that affect many
more people.
You have the tunnel mindset of the classic Silicon Valley coder, where I
know hundreds of them, perhaps thousands. You have no concept of how to
code properly to handle exceptions if you actually believe that.
ad hominem.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 22:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
The answer to that objection is that if I had wanted Microsoft updates, I
would have loaded them on my own.
that's not an answer. it's an excuse for foolishness.
If I had wanted Microsoft updates, I would have downloaded them.
It's really that simple.
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
Just like I do with my iPads to prevent the diarrhea
moving goalposts to trolling.
The point is that there is generally nothing in the newer releases of any
mature operating system, whether it be Linux, Windows, iOS, or Android,
that I care about and that is worth the huge risk, especially with Apple
products which are not tested outside the walled garden, which you're very
well aware of.
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
It's a classic coding rule to abort gracefully when the unexpected occurs,
which Microsoft did - for years - but not recently.
there's no way to cover every possible situation.
Of course there is. If the answer isn't the expected answer, then you abort
gracefully.
Post by nospam
rare ones, particularly ones that are the result of users going out of
their way to break things, are not a high priority.
If Microsoft provides a switch, they should test their software with those
switches thrown.

The poor coding reminds me of Windows iTunes, which will go where you ask
it to go but all the ancillary program bloat that comes along with iTunes
doesn't follow any good coding practices, hence they don't anywhere near
where you told iTunes to go.
Post by nospam
in fact, they're best ignored. anyone circumventing the normal update
process should know the risks they're taking and be able to deal with
the inevitable problems that will occur.
In this case, the answer is clear for the tribal knowledge record:
a. If Microsoft Windows Update bricks your system, then
b. First try to recover using all the options in the recovery console
c. Then try those same options after booting to the latest release on DVD
d. Then try those same options after booting to an older release DVD
e. If they all fail, then try to fix the MBR with the BCDEDITE fixboot
f. If that still fails, then start fresh after recovering the data.

To recover the data, any of the following will work:
A. Attach the drive to an SATA/IDE/EIDE/PATA adapter to USB
B. Attach the drive to the motherboard with a SATAIII cable set
C. Access the drive after booting to Windows (either DVD or on HDD)
D. Access the drive after booting to a recovery OS (e.g., Knoppix on DVD)
E. Run any of the following programs, as desired
1. copy
2. ddrescue
3. recuva
4. testdisk
5. photrec
etc.
Char Jackson
2018-03-01 01:31:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 22:30:05 -0800, ultred ragnusen
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by nospam
Post by ultred ragnusen
PS: The Microsoft Store feeds you though, while the Apple store does not.
i've never seen food offered in any microsoft store.
They offered me a the coke you see in this picture...
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_2.jpg
Isn't calling Coke "food" setting a pretty low bar? Hopefully, there was
a little bit more to this feeding thing than just a soft drink.
--
Char Jackson
ultred ragnusen
2018-03-01 04:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
Post by ultred ragnusen
They offered me a the coke you see in this picture...
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_2.jpg
Isn't calling Coke "food" setting a pretty low bar? Hopefully, there was
a little bit more to this feeding thing than just a soft drink.
You have a valid point. In both visits, someone walked up to me asking if I
wanted something, and then they rattled off a list of those somethings.

I took a coke each time, but I don't remember what all those somethings
were.

Most were drinks, but I thought I heard cookies in the list, but I'd have
to go back to be sure.

The point was that they never offered anything at Apple visits.
Davoud
2018-02-27 20:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
PS: The Microsoft Store feeds you though, while the Apple store does not.
:)
Yeah, but the Apple Store sells stuff that "just works," while the
Microsoft Store does not :)
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 22:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by ultred ragnusen
PS: The Microsoft Store feeds you though, while the Apple store does not.
:)
Yeah, but the Apple Store sells stuff that "just works," while the
Microsoft Store does not :)
Let's not go there because you're very well aware that there is zero app
functionality on iOS that isn't already on Android, and likely on Microsoft
also, while there is /tons/ and /tons/ (and /tons/) of app functionality on
Android that isn't on iOS (e.g., loading any launcher, setting up the
desktop any way you like, automatic call recording, torrenting, graphical
display of wifi signal strength for all available APs over time, accurate
reporting of cell tower information, an app drawer app, youtube
searching/downloading/playing/extraction/etc in a single youtube clone app
without ever once seeing an ad, etc.).
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 03:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
I had another think about this, and the first question I've
got is
What utility is this ? "Finished" box.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix_error_01.jpg
Oh. That. It's simply the dialog that Knoppix gives you when you select a
directory to right click and "copy" and then you select a location to right
click and "paste".

Anyway, I picked up the machine from the Microsoft Store today where they
found nothing wrong with the HDD or memory, but they couldn't recover the
operating system. I asked them what they ran and they spit off a bunch of
words (fixboot, scanos, chkdsk, diskpart) but mostly they said they used
"bcdedit" after running full diagnostics on the HDD and RAM and
motherboard.
Loading Image...
Post by Paul
I see a dialog box with the word "Finished" but I can't tell what
utility put that dialog box there.
It's just the normal copy and paste of Knoppix.
But it's all over. The Microsoft Update bricked OS is a goner because I
tried both Microsoft telephone support and the retail store in the middle
of Silicon Valley (right across from the Apple store).
Loading Image...

The bricked MS Windows 10 update is just a disk drive now.
Windows seems to mount it just fine once I bought a SATA III cable and a
molex-to-SATA connector to hook it up as a second HDD.
Loading Image...
(BTW, I have no idea what that 100GB "system reserved" partition is as I
didn't make it to my knowledge.)
Paul
2018-02-27 04:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Paul
I had another think about this, and the first question I've
got is
What utility is this ? "Finished" box.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/knoppix_error_01.jpg
Oh. That. It's simply the dialog that Knoppix gives you when you select a
directory to right click and "copy" and then you select a location to right
click and "paste".
Anyway, I picked up the machine from the Microsoft Store today where they
found nothing wrong with the HDD or memory, but they couldn't recover the
operating system. I asked them what they ran and they spit off a bunch of
words (fixboot, scanos, chkdsk, diskpart) but mostly they said they used
"bcdedit" after running full diagnostics on the HDD and RAM and
motherboard.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_2.jpg
Post by Paul
I see a dialog box with the word "Finished" but I can't tell what
utility put that dialog box there.
It's just the normal copy and paste of Knoppix.
But it's all over. The Microsoft Update bricked OS is a goner because I
tried both Microsoft telephone support and the retail store in the middle
of Silicon Valley (right across from the Apple store).
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_3.jpg
The bricked MS Windows 10 update is just a disk drive now.
Windows seems to mount it just fine once I bought a SATA III cable and a
molex-to-SATA connector to hook it up as a second HDD.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system_2.jpg
(BTW, I have no idea what that 100GB "system reserved" partition is as I
didn't make it to my knowledge.)
System Reserved can be several different sizes.

If it's small like your 100MB example, you may find \BOOT
in there as well as \BOOT\BCD. If that was the case, the "Active"
or 0x80 Boot flag would also be set on that partition. The
MBR code would be looking to that partition, for the boot
manager. The BCD is the binary file with boot settings
in it.

You can look in there with your TestDisk.

Linux can be a nuisance at times, and deny access, so
sometimes it takes more work than you might have expected.
I might have had trouble with a 0x17 partition type (Hidden
NTFS) and needed to change it to 0x07 (using sudo fdisk)
and then needed to reboot. It helps to have your LiveCD
on a USB stick, for days like that :-)

If you do find your /BOOT in there, it's possible
to move it to the main C: partition. It's kept separate
like that for BitLocker users. The idea being, you can
encrypt the entire C: drive, and leave System Reserved
visible. And that's how the OS can boot. If you insist
on moving the contents of System Reserved onto C: ,
then your config is no longer "BitLocker Ready".

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=409

I think the BitLocker on Windows 7 uses the Elephant
Diffuser and it was removed from Windows 10. If encryption
had "belt and suspenders" the Windows 10 version is just
"belt". They removed the suspenders.

Paul
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-24 19:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike S
You can do a startup repair and then a complete 10 repair install with a
free w10 dvd (you d/l the iso for).
This Windows 10 Pro update bricking happened just after the first reboot of
the system after 3 consecutive sets of daily failed Windows 10 software
updates on the 25th, 26th, and 27th of January.
Loading Image...
Post by Mike S
w10 disk image
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
The Microsoft Tier2 telephone technical support (+1-800-642-7676) tried all
the Windows recovery options (save one) from the bricked boot disk, all of
which failed.
Loading Image...

Microsoft telephone support also tried the same set of all but one recovery
options using a DVD that he downloaded and burned for me when I gave him
control over a good Windows 10 desktop.
Loading Image...
Post by Mike S
If you can't boot from the hdd, boot from the dvd and run the startup
repair.
That fails because Microsoft Windows 10 Pro update bricked the OS.
Loading Image...
Post by Mike S
If that is successful and you can boot from the hdd you can
reinstall all of the w10 system files while retaining your programs,
settings, and data, if needed.
I already bought a new HDD and installed Windows 10 Pro and even had
Microsoft Software Specialists install for me Office 2007 Pro over the
phone by taking over control of my system yesterday.

SOLVED: How to download an ISO image for Office 2007 Pro in the year 2018
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/7ru4_AyhPCY

Loading Image...
Post by Mike S
w10 repair install procedure
https://neosmart.net/wiki/windows-10-repair-installation/
The data is the only thing I care about since programs and operating
systems are all free (sort of) and readily available.

For the data, I'm trying the various methods (Knoppix, Testdisk, Recuva,
PhotoRec, DDRescue, etc.) all of which have much promise and where I saved
a lot of the data last night using Knoppix (although I ran into an issue
with "splicing" files that I need to resolve.

In addition, for the bricked operating system, I have an appointment at the
Microsoft Genius Bar over at the Westfield Mall in the middle of Silicon
Valley on Stevenscreek Blvd in Santa Clara (+1-408-454-5940) who have hours
from midnight to midnight so it's easy to make an appointment with them.

The good news, on topic for rec.photo.digital, is that I have been
transferring photos from the phone of the repair process over to the newly
installed Windows 10 Pro PC without any issues, either via WiFi pver the
LAN, Bluetooth over ad-hoc services, or over USB cable (it just works).
Loading Image...
Mike S
2018-02-25 01:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Mike S
You can do a startup repair and then a complete 10 repair install with a
free w10 dvd (you d/l the iso for).
This Windows 10 Pro update bricking happened just after the first reboot of
the system after 3 consecutive sets of daily failed Windows 10 software
updates on the 25th, 26th, and 27th of January.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10update_010.jpg
Post by Mike S
w10 disk image
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10
The Microsoft Tier2 telephone technical support (+1-800-642-7676) tried all
the Windows recovery options (save one) from the bricked boot disk, all of
which failed.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/startup_repair.jpg
Microsoft telephone support also tried the same set of all but one recovery
options using a DVD that he downloaded and burned for me when I gave him
control over a good Windows 10 desktop.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10dvd_repair.jpg
Post by Mike S
If you can't boot from the hdd, boot from the dvd and run the startup
repair.
That fails because Microsoft Windows 10 Pro update bricked the OS.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/reset_pc_02.jpg
Post by Mike S
If that is successful and you can boot from the hdd you can
reinstall all of the w10 system files while retaining your programs,
settings, and data, if needed.
I already bought a new HDD and installed Windows 10 Pro and even had
Microsoft Software Specialists install for me Office 2007 Pro over the
phone by taking over control of my system yesterday.
SOLVED: How to download an ISO image for Office 2007 Pro in the year 2018
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/7ru4_AyhPCY
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/reset_pc_04.jpg
Post by Mike S
w10 repair install procedure
https://neosmart.net/wiki/windows-10-repair-installation/
The data is the only thing I care about since programs and operating
systems are all free (sort of) and readily available.
For the data, I'm trying the various methods (Knoppix, Testdisk, Recuva,
PhotoRec, DDRescue, etc.) all of which have much promise and where I saved
a lot of the data last night using Knoppix (although I ran into an issue
with "splicing" files that I need to resolve.
In addition, for the bricked operating system, I have an appointment at the
Microsoft Genius Bar over at the Westfield Mall in the middle of Silicon
Valley on Stevenscreek Blvd in Santa Clara (+1-408-454-5940) who have hours
from midnight to midnight so it's easy to make an appointment with them.
The good news, on topic for rec.photo.digital, is that I have been
transferring photos from the phone of the repair process over to the newly
installed Windows 10 Pro PC without any issues, either via WiFi pver the
LAN, Bluetooth over ad-hoc services, or over USB cable (it just works).
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/6xt104k.jpg
Apologies, I didn't read that you'd gone through all of that. Good luck.
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-27 03:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike S
Apologies, I didn't read that you'd gone through all of that. Good luck.
No problem. I appreciate the help, and the tribal record will show others
how to recover from a bricked MS Windows 10 Pro update.

Basically, you must first try all the viable options in the Windows
recovery console using the original HDD.
Loading Image...

Then you do all that again, using the absolute latest DVD ISO you can find,
and, if you can find the same DVD ISO as the OS that was bricked, you do it
a third time.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10dvd_repair.jpg

That's all that the Microsoft Technical Support people will do, so then you
bring it down to the local Microsoft Retail Store for them to try to fix.
Loading Image...

You leave it with them for a few days, where they will try to recover the
OS but if they can't they'll be glad to recover your data (which I didn't
have them do because I backed it up with Knoppix ahead of time).
Loading Image...

They will back up your data to their servers or to any drive you give them,
if you want them to, but I can't imagine that they could /find/ your data,
so I'm sure if you trust them, you'll lose a lot.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_1.jpg

Anyway, they will fail but when I asked them what they did, they told me
they first ran diagnostics, then they tried the recovery console of the
boot drive, then the recovery console of the latest Windows Creator
edition, and then the recovery console of an older version of Windows 10
and then they ran bcdedit to try to fix the boot record.

It all failed but they said there's nothing wrong with the HDD or RAM or
motherboard so I picked up my desktop today and am using it now after
stopping off at Fryes to buy an SATA III cable and a molex-to-SATA adapter
for the power.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/sata_cables_1.jpg

I had to simply move the SATA position 1 on the motherboard to the boot
drive, leaving SATA 2 on the motherboard connected to the DVD disc drive,
and then put the new SATAIII cable on SATA position 3 on the motherboard to
mount the old HDD, and everything booted up fine.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system_2.jpg

I can "see" the old HDD, plus some debugging files the Microsoft store
geniuses left behind.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system8f091.jpg

Where the issue is really closed except for me to try to write up the saga
so that the Windows tribal knowledge is updated with the lessons learned.

Basically, some of the lessons learned is:
1. Windows 10 Update bricks a lot of systems (at least one a day is handled
by the Microsoft retail store)
2. The solution first is to try every viable option in the recovery
console, and then try it with a new Windows 10 ISO and then with an old
Windows 10 ISO.
3. If that fails, then try to recover the boot records with bcdedit.

When/if that fails, you simply start over after backing up your data, where
you "should" be able to mount the HDD (I was able to) to save your data
with testdisk or knoppix or ddrescue or PhotoRec or Recuva, etc.
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In my case, it mounted just fine - although Knoppix gave some weird errors
but I'm not too worried because after buying SATA and power cables, I now
have two terabyte HDDs in my laptop.
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PeterN
2018-02-28 15:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Mike S
Apologies, I didn't read that you'd gone through all of that. Good luck.
No problem. I appreciate the help, and the tribal record will show others
how to recover from a bricked MS Windows 10 Pro update.
Basically, you must first try all the viable options in the Windows
recovery console using the original HDD.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/restore_gui_1.jpg
Then you do all that again, using the absolute latest DVD ISO you can find,
and, if you can find the same DVD ISO as the OS that was bricked, you do it
a third time.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/24/win10dvd_repair.jpg
That's all that the Microsoft Technical Support people will do, so then you
bring it down to the local Microsoft Retail Store for them to try to fix.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_6.jpg
You leave it with them for a few days, where they will try to recover the
OS but if they can't they'll be glad to recover your data (which I didn't
have them do because I backed it up with Knoppix ahead of time).
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_7.jpg
They will back up your data to their servers or to any drive you give them,
if you want them to, but I can't imagine that they could /find/ your data,
so I'm sure if you trust them, you'll lose a lot.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/ms_retail_store_1.jpg
Anyway, they will fail but when I asked them what they did, they told me
they first ran diagnostics, then they tried the recovery console of the
boot drive, then the recovery console of the latest Windows Creator
edition, and then the recovery console of an older version of Windows 10
and then they ran bcdedit to try to fix the boot record.
It all failed but they said there's nothing wrong with the HDD or RAM or
motherboard so I picked up my desktop today and am using it now after
stopping off at Fryes to buy an SATA III cable and a molex-to-SATA adapter
for the power.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/sata_cables_1.jpg
I had to simply move the SATA position 1 on the motherboard to the boot
drive, leaving SATA 2 on the motherboard connected to the DVD disc drive,
and then put the new SATAIII cable on SATA position 3 on the motherboard to
mount the old HDD, and everything booted up fine.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system_2.jpg
I can "see" the old HDD, plus some debugging files the Microsoft store
geniuses left behind.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/mounted_file_system8f091.jpg
Where the issue is really closed except for me to try to write up the saga
so that the Windows tribal knowledge is updated with the lessons learned.
1. Windows 10 Update bricks a lot of systems (at least one a day is handled
by the Microsoft retail store)
2. The solution first is to try every viable option in the recovery
console, and then try it with a new Windows 10 ISO and then with an old
Windows 10 ISO.
3. If that fails, then try to recover the boot records with bcdedit.
When/if that fails, you simply start over after backing up your data, where
you "should" be able to mount the HDD (I was able to) to save your data
with testdisk or knoppix or ddrescue or PhotoRec or Recuva, etc.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/boot_device_1.jpg
In my case, it mounted just fine - although Knoppix gave some weird errors
but I'm not too worried because after buying SATA and power cables, I now
have two terabyte HDDs in my laptop.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/boot_device_2.jpg
Your information is good. Years ago I learned the hard way to keep all
my data on a portable HDD, and back up regularly.

To change the topic slightly: It seems to me that the quality of service
at the Windows store is a few notches below what it was abut a year ago.
Is it only my local stores, or have others noticed th4e same thing. I am
talking about the the stores in Roosevelt Field, and Walt Whitman. Last
week I had an issue, with the machine running slow. The store wanted me
to leave the machine so they could run tests. I took it to a local guy,
the issue was a virus, that my AV didn't pick up. It now works fine.
--
PeterN
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-28 17:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterN
Post by ultred ragnusen
In my case, it mounted just fine - although Knoppix gave some weird errors
but I'm not too worried because after buying SATA and power cables, I now
have two terabyte HDDs in my laptop.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/boot_device_2.jpg
Your information is good. Years ago I learned the hard way to keep all
my data on a portable HDD, and back up regularly.
Do you own a car? Do you use battery-based wall-outlet-charged jumper
devices? What happens to those battery-based jumper devices in cold weather
or after 10 years? They suffer from the /same/ faults (even more of them)
than the car battery does, right?

Same thing here with external HDDs.

I have a dozen ten year old Zip drives and HDDs which suffer mainly from
worse faults than do my internal HDDs. For one, the ZIP drive data is lost
forever, because I don't even know how to get it back. For another, some of
the older HDDs suffer from proprietary power supplies, where if I lose the
cable or if the power supply goes bad, I'm hosed. For another, a HDD can
EASILY get corrupted. If I haven't mentioned that yet, just unplug it after
backing up hundreds of megabytes, and then cry (as I did) when you can't
fnid the data except by Recuva, where all the files are flat and the names
are all missing their first character (don't ask me why - just ask me why I
cried).

So I gave uip on external USB-connected HDDs as a backup because they're
even /less/ reliable than the internal HDDs are.

So what's left?
DVD is left.

I guess, when SSD gets to the price of DVD, it will win since you only
write once to SSD, but SSD will fail if it uses a proprietary power supply.
Post by PeterN
To change the topic slightly: It seems to me that the quality of service
at the Windows store is a few notches below what it was abut a year ago.
I thought the QOS was about the same as at the Apple store when I brought
iPads to them which didn't get anywhere near the range of WiFi that my
Android phones got - and they were worthless.

All the Apple store could do was run bullshit diagnostics which simply
teste that iOS was working - which wasn't the problem (because lack of
radio reception is a hardware problem).

They had absolutely zero real diagnostics that you can't run yourself -
where it seems that the Microsoft Retail Store was similar.
PeterN
2018-02-28 18:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by PeterN
Post by ultred ragnusen
In my case, it mounted just fine - although Knoppix gave some weird errors
but I'm not too worried because after buying SATA and power cables, I now
have two terabyte HDDs in my laptop.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/27/boot_device_2.jpg
Your information is good. Years ago I learned the hard way to keep all
my data on a portable HDD, and back up regularly.
Do you own a car? Do you use battery-based wall-outlet-charged jumper
devices? What happens to those battery-based jumper devices in cold weather
or after 10 years? They suffer from the /same/ faults (even more of them)
than the car battery does, right?
Same thing here with external HDDs.
I have a dozen ten year old Zip drives and HDDs which suffer mainly from
worse faults than do my internal HDDs. For one, the ZIP drive data is lost
forever, because I don't even know how to get it back. For another, some of
the older HDDs suffer from proprietary power supplies, where if I lose the
cable or if the power supply goes bad, I'm hosed. For another, a HDD can
EASILY get corrupted. If I haven't mentioned that yet, just unplug it after
backing up hundreds of megabytes, and then cry (as I did) when you can't
fnid the data except by Recuva, where all the files are flat and the names
are all missing their first character (don't ask me why - just ask me why I
cried).
So I gave uip on external USB-connected HDDs as a backup because they're
even /less/ reliable than the internal HDDs are.
So what's left?
DVD is left.
I guess, when SSD gets to the price of DVD, it will win since you only
write once to SSD, but SSD will fail if it uses a proprietary power supply.
Post by PeterN
To change the topic slightly: It seems to me that the quality of service
at the Windows store is a few notches below what it was abut a year ago.
I thought the QOS was about the same as at the Apple store when I brought
iPads to them which didn't get anywhere near the range of WiFi that my
Android phones got - and they were worthless.
All the Apple store could do was run bullshit diagnostics which simply
teste that iOS was working - which wasn't the problem (because lack of
radio reception is a hardware problem).
They had absolutely zero real diagnostics that you can't run yourself -
where it seems that the Microsoft Retail Store was similar.
We all have different needs. DVD would not work very well for me. The
largest DVD is about 8.5G. My data is mostly photos. The RAW file, out
of the camera is either 20MB, or 33MB, depending on which camera I am
using. Once I start processing, I have to struggle to keep some of the
files under 2G. A portable HDD runs off the laptops power. They are all
industrious standard USB3. If that becomes obsolete, and I lose the
connection cords, the data loss is my fault. But, with proper backups,
and attention to what is going on, technology wise, my system will work
just fine for me.

YMMV
--
PeterN
ultred ragnusen
2018-02-28 21:23:21 UTC
Permalink
They are all industrious standard USB3.
I've had really back luck with corruption if I pull the cord out while
Windows thinks it should be connected, where the /entire/ HDD is corrupted.

The data was still there - but it had to be recovered - the last time using
Recuva - but it has happened multiple times.

So I _hate_ those removable media HDDs.

But, as you said, we each have our own needs...
nospam
2018-02-28 21:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
I've had really back luck with corruption if I pull the cord out while
Windows thinks it should be connected, where the /entire/ HDD is corrupted.
user error.
Post by ultred ragnusen
The data was still there - but it had to be recovered - the last time using
Recuva - but it has happened multiple times.
user error.
nospam
2018-02-28 18:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
I have a dozen ten year old Zip drives and HDDs which suffer mainly from
worse faults than do my internal HDDs. For one, the ZIP drive data is lost
forever, because I don't even know how to get it back.
zip never was reliable.
Post by ultred ragnusen
For another, some of
the older HDDs suffer from proprietary power supplies, where if I lose the
cable or if the power supply goes bad, I'm hosed
open the enclosure and pull the mechanism.
Post by ultred ragnusen
. For another, a HDD can
EASILY get corrupted. If I haven't mentioned that yet, just unplug it after
backing up hundreds of megabytes,
no it doesn't.
Post by ultred ragnusen
and then cry (as I did) when you can't
fnid the data except by Recuva, where all the files are flat and the names
are all missing their first character (don't ask me why - just ask me why I
cried).
if that's the case, then recuva is garbage.
Ken Blake
2018-02-28 18:00:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:41:16 -0500, PeterN
Post by PeterN
Your information is good. Years ago I learned the hard way to keep all
my data on a portable HDD, and back up regularly.
Why do you want it on a portable HD? I don't agree with that. All it
does is slow down access to it.
Post by PeterN
... and back up regularly.
But I strongly agree with that.
PeterN
2018-02-28 18:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:41:16 -0500, PeterN
Post by PeterN
Your information is good. Years ago I learned the hard way to keep all
my data on a portable HDD, and back up regularly.
Why do you want it on a portable HD? I don't agree with that. All it
does is slow down access to it.
When I'm traveling with my laptop, my choices are portable HDD, or a
bunch of easily lost memory cards. Yes, it is not ideal, but it works
for me.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by PeterN
... and back up regularly.
But I strongly agree with that.
--
PeterN
nospam
2018-02-28 18:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by PeterN
Your information is good. Years ago I learned the hard way to keep all
my data on a portable HDD, and back up regularly.
Why do you want it on a portable HD? I don't agree with that. All it
does is slow down access to it.
nonsense.

many portable hds are *faster* than desktop hds.
Carlos E.R.
2018-02-24 09:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Wolf K
AFAIK, Windows sees all USB-connected cameras, including phones. But
unlike USB flash-drives, they do not have to be Removed. Just unplug
them when you're done.
THANK YOU for that hint!
I hope it's true, because it's a pain to have to wait to shut it down
first, but where I've had to laboriously recover (e.g., Recuva) data big
time by not shutting down the drive with USB HDD drives after copying over
large amounts of data.
So it's nice to know (if it's true) that you can just unplug a phone
without worry of data corruption.
Not entirely true.

There will not be filesystem corruption, but if a file was being written
it will be incomplete (and possibly deleted). And if there is a bunch of
files waiting to be transferred, they won't. Going through the motions
of secure removal will ensure all the files are written.

MTP does file by file individual and complete operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Wolf K
2018-02-24 15:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by ultred ragnusen
Post by Wolf K
AFAIK, Windows sees all USB-connected cameras, including phones. But
unlike USB flash-drives, they do not have to be Removed. Just unplug
them when you're done.
THANK YOU for that hint!
I hope it's true, because it's a pain to have to wait to shut it down
first, but where I've had to laboriously recover (e.g., Recuva) data big
time by not shutting down the drive with USB HDD drives after copying over
large amounts of data.
So it's nice to know (if it's true) that you can just unplug a phone
without worry of data corruption.
Not entirely true.
There will not be filesystem corruption, but if a file was being written
it will be incomplete (and possibly deleted). And if there is a bunch of
files waiting to be transferred, they won't. Going through the motions
of secure removal will ensure all the files are written.
MTP does file by file individual and complete operations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
Good points, but this Windows 8/1 box doesn't list any of the cameras as
USB-connected mass-storage devices, so the Safe Removal applet doesn't
apply. I suspect this is the most common case.

So I just wait till the copying is done. :-) I delete in-camera.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
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