Discussion:
Bluetooth query
(too old to reply)
pjp
2018-08-03 06:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Well wife just came home with a phone has Bluetooth and seeing as I have
a Bluetooth adapter for a PC I figured I'd check it out.

Some issues getting devices "paired" but believe that now happens
reliably.

Problem is I don't see what the fuss is all about. It does appear I may
be able to connect the pc to the internet thru the phone but nothing
else. I figured I'd be able to browse the SD card etc. in the phone but
that doesn't seem available.

It's some sort of Samsung phone btw.

Am I missing something?
G Ross
2018-08-03 10:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjp
Well wife just came home with a phone has Bluetooth and seeing as I have
a Bluetooth adapter for a PC I figured I'd check it out.
Some issues getting devices "paired" but believe that now happens
reliably.
Problem is I don't see what the fuss is all about. It does appear I may
be able to connect the pc to the internet thru the phone but nothing
else. I figured I'd be able to browse the SD card etc. in the phone but
that doesn't seem available.
It's some sort of Samsung phone btw.
Am I missing something?
I'm certainly no expert, but the only use I have found connecting a PC
to a phone is to send pictures. On the phone the bluetooth is good to
pair with a headset to use the phone while driving. In this state it
is illegal to use a hand-held phone while driving other than through a
headphone or similar device.
--
G Ross
Mayayana
2018-08-03 13:57:38 UTC
Permalink
"pjp" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

|
| Well wife just came home with a phone has Bluetooth and seeing as I have
| a Bluetooth adapter for a PC I figured I'd check it out.
|
| Some issues getting devices "paired" but believe that now happens
| reliably.
|
| Problem is I don't see what the fuss is all about. It does appear I may
| be able to connect the pc to the internet thru the phone but nothing
| else. I figured I'd be able to browse the SD card etc. in the phone but
| that doesn't seem available.
|

I bought a cheap USB bluetooth adapter so
I could get photos off my Tracphone. It works
OK, though it took a little fiddling to get them
to see each other. But if you have an SD card
then why not just use/buy an SD card reader?

My understanding is that bluetooth is mainly
meant as a way to allow data transfer for
small devices where a USB port might be too
expensive or too big to be feasible. Nothing
especially desirable. Just good to have if you
don't have any other option.
Ken Blake
2018-08-03 14:08:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 03:36:08 -0300, pjp
Post by pjp
Well wife just came home with a phone has Bluetooth and seeing as I have
a Bluetooth adapter for a PC I figured I'd check it out.
Some issues getting devices "paired" but believe that now happens
reliably.
Problem is I don't see what the fuss is all about. It does appear I may
be able to connect the pc to the internet thru the phone but nothing
else. I figured I'd be able to browse the SD card etc. in the phone but
that doesn't seem available.
It's some sort of Samsung phone btw.
Am I missing something?
My phone has bluetooth capability. I use it for only one thing, and I
like that thing very much: it connects to the screen in my car (2018
Camry). I can receive call, make calls, etc. without even touching the
phone which stays in my pocket.
VanguardLH
2018-08-03 22:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pjp
Well wife just came home with a phone has Bluetooth and seeing as I
have a Bluetooth adapter for a PC I figured I'd check it out.
Some issues getting devices "paired" but believe that now happens
reliably.
Problem is I don't see what the fuss is all about. It does appear I
may be able to connect the pc to the internet thru the phone but
nothing else. I figured I'd be able to browse the SD card etc. in
the phone but that doesn't seem available.
My phone has bluetooth capability. I use it for only one thing, and I
like that thing very much: it connects to the screen in my car (2018
Camry). I can receive call, make calls, etc. without even touching the
phone which stays in my pocket.
Alas, my car is too old to have the in-dash center with all the gizmo
apps. I still wanted to use my car stereo to call out driving
instructions instead of using the phone's speaker (which is okay but
means I have to drive with the windows closed). I got a Bluetooth and
FM transceiver that plugs into the cigarette lighter port. That lets me
connect from my phone using Bluetooth to the FM transceiver which using
radio to transmit on a selected channel to my car stereo.

Because it is not an always-on power port but instead a cigarette
lighter port, it's power goes on and off with the car's ignition. That
comes in handy for use with Bluetooth-enabled apps that can track where
I parked, when I started driving, and my drive route(s). When power
goes off, the Bluetooth connection is lost which the app records as my
parking location. When power is on (car is started), a Bluetooth
connection is established and the app will start recording my trip. I
had tried to use the Bluetooth connect-disconnect from the app to the
Bluetoothed ODB dongle (used to get info on the car and review or reset
trouble codes), it stays on when the car is turned off (for 2 hours
after which it goes into sleep mode), so not a good choice to detecting
the car's run/stop state to tracking parking locations and driving
routes.

As for transferring files between the phone and my PC, nah, Bluetooth
sucks for that. It's possibly but clumsy; see:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4026874/windows-10-share-files-over-bluetooth

As I recall, to get file transfers to work well, I had to go into the
properties of the Bluetooth device (smartphone) in Windows Bluetooth
device list and enable other transfer modes. In the Start menu's search
box, I'd enter "Bluetooth" and select "Bluetooth Devices", right-click
on the smarphone (previously paired to the PC) and select Properties,
and go to the Services tab. I had to enable several services that then
let my have more functionality of the smartphone from my PC. Most of
the services are geared to audio or telephony. None of them actually
state they are for file transfer. That might actually be a function of
whose Bluetooth driver/software you install for whatever Bluetooth
transceiver you use in your PC.

Instead I just use a USB cable: when I connect my phone via USB cable to
my PC, my PC pops up a prompt asking what I want to do with that newly
detected and available device, so I elect to open Windows Explorer to go
look at files on the phone. USB Debugging Mode (in the phone) and the
ADB driver (in the PC) are not required for just doing file transfers
but they are needed if you want to remotely control your phone using
your PC using something like AirDroid (plus it will let you do file
transfers).

Bluetooth isn't just about using it with your car or with your PC. You
can also transfer files between smartphones using Bluetooth. See:

https://www.recovery-android.com/transfer-file-via-bluetooth.html

I don't share files between phones, not even my own. Instead I use
cloud services (OneDrive, Google Drive) to upload the files. Other
phones logged into the same accounts will then sync to get the files.
Bluetooth transfer is slow compared to wi-fi (which cloud storage uses):
25Mbps for Bluetooth versus whatever the wi-fi hotspot gives you versus
250Mbps for wi-fi direct (for file transfer, you enable wi-fi direct in
your phone and need to use an app for the file transfer over the wi-fi
linkup).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi_Direct
https://www.androidpit.com/what-is-wifi-direct

Although I have the Wi-Fi Direct option on my smartphone (LG V20 running
Android 7.0), I haven't bothered using it. I've not yet needed
immediate file transfer between my own phones, I don't share files with
others, and online storage with sync suffices plus it gives me a backup
and I can sync to phones or PCs or even get at the files on someone
else's PC, like when vacationing, or decide which I'll share with others
by doling out URLs to the files in public or shared folders in my online
account.
Mayayana
2018-08-04 14:10:11 UTC
Permalink
"VanguardLH" <***@nguard.LH> wrote

| > My phone has bluetooth capability. I use it for only one thing, and I
| > like that thing very much: it connects to the screen in my car (2018
| > Camry). I can receive call, make calls, etc. without even touching the
| > phone which stays in my pocket.
|
| Alas, my car is too old to have the in-dash center with all the gizmo
| apps.

I wish I could sell you mine. I had to buy bluetooth
in order to get an automatic transmission in my 2016
Nissan pickup. Traffic has got so bad -- I was tired of
keeping my foot on a clutch constantly.

But I don't use a computer phone, don't use map
services, and rarely listen to music voluntarily. So
the steering-wheel-installed bluetooth is unused and
I replaced the multi-media mess in the center of the
dashboard with a small storage cabinet. :)
VanguardLH
2018-08-04 22:34:10 UTC
Permalink
|> My phone has bluetooth capability. I use it for only one thing, and I
|> like that thing very much: it connects to the screen in my car (2018
|> Camry). I can receive call, make calls, etc. without even touching the
|> phone which stays in my pocket.
|
| Alas, my car is too old to have the in-dash center with all the gizmo
| apps.
I wish I could sell you mine. I had to buy bluetooth
in order to get an automatic transmission in my 2016
Nissan pickup. Traffic has got so bad -- I was tired of
keeping my foot on a clutch constantly.
As an aside on your "keeping my foot on a clutch constantly", I remember
seeing some videos of folks that used Subaru's Eyesight system to drive
their car during rush hour traffic. I'm pretty sure if Eyesight is in
the car that Subaru forced you to have their CVT tranny so something
like this was possible (so no clutch, anyway).





I'd still keep my foot atop the brake. Eyesight takes away the gas
pedal from you when it detects an imminent collision; however, it needs
some time to see what it might collide with, and some kid running out
into the street chasing a ball probably isn't enough time, plus there
are those assholes in rush-hour traffic that cut you off (their tail is
not beyond your front) if you weren't ready.

Subaru is putting Eyesight in all their cars. You can't buy a Subie
without Eyesight which is akin to you having to get Bluetooth to get an
automatic tranny. Makers and dealers love to bundle the options: if you
want some option, you have to buy an entire package of options.
Mayayana
2018-08-05 01:07:25 UTC
Permalink
"VanguardLH" <***@nguard.LH> wrote

| Subaru is putting Eyesight in all their cars. You can't buy a Subie
| without Eyesight which is akin to you having to get Bluetooth to get an
| automatic tranny.

Yuck. At least bluetooth isn't intrusive. Automatic
transmission required me to accept a whole bundle,
including AC. Though I have to say that as I get older
it's nice to have AC. Lately it's been very humid and
mid-90s.

I feel lucky to have been able to get an almost
tech-free truck. The only frivolous electric function
is the heat/AC vents. And so far that's the only
thing that doesn't work right! They replaced the simple
system of vents connected with cables that connect
to a plastic slide control, putting in a ridiculous motor
to do the sliding.
pjp
2018-08-05 01:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Subaru is putting Eyesight in all their cars. You can't buy a Subie
| without Eyesight which is akin to you having to get Bluetooth to get an
| automatic tranny.
Yuck. At least bluetooth isn't intrusive. Automatic
transmission required me to accept a whole bundle,
including AC. Though I have to say that as I get older
it's nice to have AC. Lately it's been very humid and
mid-90s.
I feel lucky to have been able to get an almost
tech-free truck. The only frivolous electric function
is the heat/AC vents. And so far that's the only
thing that doesn't work right! They replaced the simple
system of vents connected with cables that connect
to a plastic slide control, putting in a ridiculous motor
to do the sliding.
I just don't see myself ever buying a "new" vehicle again. None of them
are worth the money and what you're realing doing is simply giving a
dealer endless opportunities to exploit you. Least that's my take on it.

As far as new features go ...

Back up cameras yet you can't actually see the two corner of the end of
your car in it. Almost useless and just a gimmick.

Touchscreens seem dangerous to me. Can easily imagine someone looking
for extended periods into one looking for some specific setting and in
the meantime go of the road or into oncoming traffic.

High beam that when on turn off the low beam. WHY??? More light is
better and I shouldn't have to buy a pair of driving lights so I can see
close to the car even with high beamsn on. Older cars with four
headlights often did this, two headlight newer cars never.

Why the hell would I want internet/wifi in the car built-in? If I expect
I'll need internet I'll take a laptop along. In fact I'd not tolerate
any kind of over the air transmission of any sort. Some firmware update
then send me a USB stick and have suitable port for that purpose built
into the car. On Star and that crap is worthless.

I don't own any phone but a landline so anything to do with a cell phone
is money poorly spent. Same with any fancy way to play music in the car.
A stereo with a USB port works more than just fine. Only problem there
is what capacity unit limits USB device to, e.g. most won't "see" a 1TB
portable hard disk.
Mayayana
2018-08-05 04:43:28 UTC
Permalink
"pjp" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

| I just don't see myself ever buying a "new" vehicle again. None of them
| are worth the money and what you're realing doing is simply giving a
| dealer endless opportunities to exploit you. Least that's my take on it.
|

I need it for work. To my mind it's cheaper to buy
new and pay off a loan. I get a dependable vehicle.
And repair costs these days make a used car too
expensive.

I had two Toyota pickups that lasted me about
30 years. 19 years and 230K miles on the first
one. 11 years and 80K miles on the second. I
did most of the work myself and they didn't need
much. But then the second started to rust
out and things like exhaust sensors kept going
on me. Stuff that didn't even exist on the older
truck. I decided it would be better to buy new
again rather than to start doing repairs on a regular
basis. If I have to pay $300 to $1,000 every 2
months for maintenance then I'm better off just
buying new. The last thing that went was speed
sensors on the front wheels. I didn't even know
they existed! $350 to do it myself of $700 to pay
a mechanic to hook up two little camera gizmos
next to the brake disk. (Probably $100 for an hour's
labor and $250 for the scam parts markup.) Like
most machinery today, repairing is more expensive
than buying new. TVs, DVD players, drills, saws,
and even cars. Fixing them isn't worth it.

This time I got a Nissan. The Toyotas were good
when I bought them. They used to be the best for the
least money. But Toyota shifted their focus. Now
they only make expensive pickups and the Tacoma
bed is only 5' because there's a full back seat. It's
really a family sedan that can be used to carry an
ATV or a bag of grass seed... after a plastic liner
has been installed so the bed doesn't get dirty. :)

I guess there's not much money in work trucks.
These days it's all about selling luxury sedans that
just look like work trucks. So macho cowboys can
drive around suburban streets felling like the Marlboro
man. There are very few models that are actually
just a pickup, without back doors and back seats.

| I don't own any phone but a landline so anything to do with a cell phone
| is money poorly spent. Same with any fancy way to play music in the car.

Unfortunately, most people want to talk on their
portable phone. I live in MA where it's legal and traffic
has become like a demolition derby. In NH and VT it's
illegal to use handhelds. The difference is noticeable.
Some people might still be on the phone, but at least
they're not trying to text, and they have a hand free
to turn on their signals.

I see the problem as symptomatic
of something far more chilling: a general trend away
from community. So many people no longer see
themselves connected to the people around them.
They walk without looking where they're going and
drive as though they're alone on the road. If
I beep the horn at them they don't even look up,
never imagining someone might be beeping at them,
even though they're sitting at a green light talking
on the phone!
Char Jackson
2018-08-05 17:42:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 22:40:56 -0300, pjp
Post by pjp
Post by Mayayana
| Subaru is putting Eyesight in all their cars. You can't buy a Subie
| without Eyesight which is akin to you having to get Bluetooth to get an
| automatic tranny.
Earlier this year I read an article that said (IIRC) the newer safety
features are mandated to be on every vehicle by the 2020 model year,
although some manufacturers are adding them earlier. They mentioned
backup cameras, backup cross-traffic monitor, blind spot monitor,
automatic low speed stop and go, and adaptive cruise control. Probably
more that I've forgotten. My current vehicles already have all but the
last two. I'm really looking forward to adaptive cruise control on my
next vehicle.
Post by pjp
I just don't see myself ever buying a "new" vehicle again. None of them
are worth the money and what you're realing doing is simply giving a
dealer endless opportunities to exploit you. Least that's my take on it.
I usually buy new because the price difference between new and 2 years
old is so small, (I wouldn't buy older than 2-3 years, and I usually buy
the highest trim level), but I did buy a used Toyota Highlander in 2005
for about $4K less than everyone else was asking because the automatic
climate control didn't work. That could have been a $3500 repair but if
you think about it, the whole system is computerized and has a
diagnostic mode that will tell you exactly what it thinks is wrong. In
my case, it said the daylight sensor wasn't working, (with a note saying
this is normal if the vehicle is not in direct sunlight, and yes I was
doing the test at night), and a second failure of Cabin Temp sensor
disconnected. I reached up under the instrument panel about 3 inches,
found the sensor, confirmed that it had nothing connected to it, found a
dangling connector very close by, plugged it in, and I was done. The
whole thing took less than 5 minutes. I wonder what a dealer would have
charged.
Post by pjp
As far as new features go ...
Back up cameras yet you can't actually see the two corner of the end of
your car in it. Almost useless and just a gimmick.
I'm not the biggest fan of backup cameras, but they make hooking up a
trailer drop dead easy. I'd rather have one than not. For most of my
backing, I still use the 3 rearview mirrors.
Post by pjp
Touchscreens seem dangerous to me. Can easily imagine someone looking
for extended periods into one looking for some specific setting and in
the meantime go of the road or into oncoming traffic.
There will certainly be people who do that, but there's no good reason
for it. In my case, I familiarized myself with the touchscreen functions
while parked in my driveway so that I can safely do what I need while
driving. To do everything that the touchscreen allows, but using analog
switches and knobs instead, would take at least several dozen such knobs
and switches, which would be completely impractical in a car. Obviously,
I love the touchscreen. The bigger, the better.
Post by pjp
High beam that when on turn off the low beam. WHY??? More light is
better and I shouldn't have to buy a pair of driving lights so I can see
close to the car even with high beamsn on. Older cars with four
headlights often did this, two headlight newer cars never.
I've never driven a vehicle that had poor near illumination when the
high beams are on.
Post by pjp
Why the hell would I want internet/wifi in the car built-in? If I expect
I'll need internet I'll take a laptop along. In fact I'd not tolerate
any kind of over the air transmission of any sort. Some firmware update
then send me a USB stick and have suitable port for that purpose built
into the car. On Star and that crap is worthless.
I don't have On Star, but I know that it's far from worthless. At its
worst, it can be a huge convenience, and at best, it's an absolute
lifesaver. I don't see any downsides except possibly for people who
think they're being tracked or something.

As for Internet in the car, if I'm driving alone I haven't seen a use
case for it, but if there are multiple people in the car, especially if
some are kids, then why not? They can use their WiFi-only iPads and
tablets during the trip.
Post by pjp
I don't own any phone but a landline so anything to do with a cell phone
is money poorly spent. Same with any fancy way to play music in the car.
A stereo with a USB port works more than just fine. Only problem there
is what capacity unit limits USB device to, e.g. most won't "see" a 1TB
portable hard disk.
Storage size isn't one of my complaints. My vehicles see a 128GB USB
thumb drive just fine, and at about 30% full it has about 7500 songs,
which is way more than I can listen to, even on a week-long road trip.
My complaint is that my vehicles don't recognize FLAC, so I have to
convert back to mp3 to take music on the road. Here in the house, my
digital music collection has about 130,000 songs, (I'm sure there are
dupes), so prior to my next trip I'll probably convert and load another
batch of 7500 or so to take along.

My real complaint about music/entertainment is Sirius/XM. To me, that's
a waste of money. All of my rental cars have it, (I rent for work nearly
every week), and my own vehicles have it for a period of time when new,
but I never renew it when it expires. There are too many other (free)
options for music, so I don't need that one.
--
Char Jackson
Mayayana
2018-08-05 18:18:16 UTC
Permalink
"Char Jackson" <***@none.invalid> wrote

| I did buy a used Toyota Highlander in 2005
| for about $4K less than everyone else was asking because the automatic
| climate control didn't work. That could have been a $3500 repair but if
| you think about it, the whole system is computerized and has a
| diagnostic mode that will tell you exactly what it thinks is wrong. In
| my case, it said the daylight sensor wasn't working, (with a note saying
| this is normal if the vehicle is not in direct sunlight, and yes I was
| doing the test at night), and a second failure of Cabin Temp sensor
| disconnected. I reached up under the instrument panel about 3 inches,
| found the sensor, confirmed that it had nothing connected to it, found a
| dangling connector very close by, plugged it in, and I was done. The
| whole thing took less than 5 minutes. I wonder what a dealer would have
| charged.

Sounds great. But what happens when another pointless
sensor or chip goes, and you can't turn on the heat?
In a traditional car it's really just turning on a fan. Climate
control is Rube Goldberg-style idiocy -- a vastly more
complex contraption, and for what? So that you don't
have to decide whether you're hot or cold.

I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-06 00:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
VanguardLH
2018-08-06 02:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car. By the time you realize that you
need to close the window, it has already started or has been raining.
The problem is the car owner refusing to let you have their car key to
close their windows (because they won't or cannot); however, in that
case, you're not getting into their car to close the window, anyway,
whether the window is mechanical or electrical.

There are rural locations where car owners leave their cars unlocked all
the time, even when going into "town" (grain silos with one convenience
store). Are we making generalizations based on unusual scenarios? Do
those folks actually have a higher density of new cars or are they
mostly driving old and rusty pickups?
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-06 16:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window. But I'd like to be able to just open the door
and close the windows ("command switches on the driver's side"). Not
"open the door, scramble round to get the key in, close the windows,
and pull the key out."

First world problem and all that.
Post by VanguardLH
By the time you realize that you
need to close the window, it has already started or has been raining.
The problem is the car owner refusing to let you have their car key to
close their windows (because they won't or cannot); however, in that
case, you're not getting into their car to close the window, anyway,
whether the window is mechanical or electrical.
There are rural locations where car owners leave their cars unlocked all
the time, even when going into "town" (grain silos with one convenience
store). Are we making generalizations based on unusual scenarios? Do
those folks actually have a higher density of new cars or are they
mostly driving old and rusty pickups?
Or both.

I like being able to "pop" the sliding doors from the driver's
seat. I don't like it when the sliding door doesn't close all the
way, the dashboard nags me about the passenger rear door being a jar
until I get out and push is that last 1/4 inch to engage the
switch/latch. Another "first world problem."

Tradeoffs.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Wolf K
2018-08-06 16:31:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window.
[...]

No hand-cranked car windows here anymore...
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Ken Blake
2018-08-06 16:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window.
[...]
No hand-cranked car windows here anymore...
Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
in many years.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-06 17:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window.
[...]
No hand-cranked car windows here anymore...
Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
in many years.
Possibly they're still being made. But are they being sold in the
US?
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Mayayana
2018-08-06 17:36:52 UTC
Permalink
"Ken Blake" <***@invalid.news.com> wrote

| Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
| in many years.

My Nissan pickup is a 2016. Two years old.
Nothing electric. When I was looking, Ford offered
a basic (F150, I think) model with no extra-cab
and few extras in general. I've never bought a new
sedan, so I don't know much about options there.
And things change: I don't have even one ashtray
to keep my change in, but I've got cup holders
everywhere I look.

I think it varies by company. At one extreme
is Tesla, which even updates software remotely.
I wouldn't be surprised if they monitor your bladder
and cross-reference that with Google maps, then
pull over at the appropriate rest area. That's the
whole point of Tesla. They're selling a Jetson's
fantasy to people with money to burn.

Other companies vary in terms of what's optional.
One of the reasons I used to like Toyota was
because everything was optional. So the base
price was low and you could get only the options
you wanted.

In my current Nissan Frontier I wanted an
automatic, so I also had to take AC, bluetooth,
cruise control, quad-speaker CD player. Those
were all classified as "standard, at no charge".
I didn't want any of them. (Though I do use the
AC.) At the same time, I had to pay extra to
get "optional" floor mats. :)

The standard transmission was $4K less because
it wasn't bundled with all those other things. The
AC package would have been an option.

But some other companies provide much less
choice. Some include most options as "standard"
and thereby drive up the base price. I imagine
you probably can't buy a BMW without headlight
wipers and heated seats. It would ruin their image.
And none of their customers would want a base
model. So options are probably things like whether
you want zebrawood or bubinga on the dashboard....
And will that be with chrome or "platinum" stainless,
sir?

That's why I stopped buying Toyota: They
stopped making work trucks and started targetting
the suburban pickup driver who wants lots of
extras and is only buying the truck "atmosphere"
rather than truck utility. So their base price starts
high. You can't decide you want, say, the AC but
not the chrome package or electric windows.

I generally prefer to add whatever extras I want
later. It's a lot cheaper. And all models are wired for
all options, up to a point. (I'm not so sure it would
be a good idea to refofit AC.)

It's similar with caps and truck bed
covers. You can buy the stock item for a wildly
inflated price or you can buy a generic version
for a lot less. I prefer to make my own, so it
can be just what I want it to be for my purposes
and still cost less than either commercial option.

I've noticed that a big trend now is pickups
that have a steel, body-matching, hinged bed cover.
Essentially it's a 4-door sedan with a giant trunk.
There may come a time when people think it's
odd to sell a pickup without a bed cover. Then
someone will "invent" the work truck.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 11:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
| in many years.
I haven't looked at a _new_ car for many years (possibly decades!), but
I _think_ they are still available in UK. (Not sure though: electric
ones may actually be cheaper to _make_ now.)
[]
Post by Mayayana
I think it varies by company. At one extreme
is Tesla, which even updates software remotely.
I wouldn't be surprised if they monitor your bladder
and cross-reference that with Google maps, then
pull over at the appropriate rest area.
LOL!
[]
Post by Mayayana
because everything was optional. So the base
price was low and you could get only the options
you wanted.
Though that presumably meant ordering from the factory, not the dealer;
on the whole I'd probably prefer to do that too, but would anticipate
getting poor service from dealers as a result. (Academic; I've never
actually bought a new car anyway, the closest being an ex-demo Lada.)
Post by Mayayana
In my current Nissan Frontier I wanted an
automatic, so I also had to take AC, bluetooth,
cruise control, quad-speaker CD player. Those
were all classified as "standard, at no charge".
I didn't want any of them. (Though I do use the
AC.) At the same time, I had to pay extra to
get "optional" floor mats. :)
You put optional in quotes - what would have been there if you'd
declined the "option"?
Post by Mayayana
The standard transmission was $4K less because
it wasn't bundled with all those other things. The
AC package would have been an option.
So you could buy a standard transmission without A/C (etc.), but not
auto? Interesting. Says something about the
manufacturers/dealers/whoever's attitude to purchasers of the different
transmissions. (In UK, with the possible exception of high-end cars, a
manual gearbox - as we call them - is still the default, although auto
is available on most cars if you want it, even small ones.)
[]
Post by Mayayana
I generally prefer to add whatever extras I want
later. It's a lot cheaper. And all models are wired for
all options, up to a point. (I'm not so sure it would
be a good idea to refofit AC.)
I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might have
been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a radio to it
for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the wiring, but
actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which IIRR was
adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
[]
Post by Mayayana
I've noticed that a big trend now is pickups
that have a steel, body-matching, hinged bed cover.
Essentially it's a 4-door sedan with a giant trunk.
There may come a time when people think it's
odd to sell a pickup without a bed cover. Then
someone will "invent" the work truck.
All these things go around and come around. In computers, it used to be
mainframes with dumb terminals (in extremis, even electromechanical ones
called teletypes); then the terminals got more and more included into
them, until we had the PC. Then it went round again, with servers and
"thin clients", ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Lewis: ... d'you think there's a god?
Morse: ... There are times when I wish to god there was one. (Inspector Morse.)
Mayayana
2018-08-07 13:58:02 UTC
Permalink
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| I haven't looked at a _new_ car for many years (possibly decades!), but
| I _think_ they are still available in UK. (Not sure though: electric
| ones may actually be cheaper to _make_ now.)

I doubt that. I doubt even more that they could
be cheaper to repair. And cranks rarely need repair.
My first pickup was about 19 years old when a
spaced out teen slammed into it while it was parked
on a quiet side street. The driver's side window crank
was beginning to slip at that point. An electronic window
control probably would have failed long before. Similarly
with electronic ignition. A new key costs me maybe $3.
A new electric key costs more like $130. And my door
lock can't be hacked remotely.

| []
| >because everything was optional. So the base
| >price was low and you could get only the options
| >you wanted.
|
| Though that presumably meant ordering from the factory, not the dealer;
| on the whole I'd probably prefer to do that too, but would anticipate
| getting poor service from dealers as a result.
|

That's a relevant point, but in my experience doesn't
apply. I've never ordered a car or truck. I'm talking
about what's *normally* available. My Nissan with only
the AC package was in stock locally. The two Toyotas
I bought were in stock locally. I need them for work
and with two of them didn't have time to wait. So
that's what I was talking about: The variations in what
companies provide normally.

Some companies won't let
you order less options at all. They define them as stock.
If you look at the factory stickers (I assume it's the
same in Britain as the US) one car for $30K might list
17 options included. Another for the same price might
have no options. It's all standard. If you buy a "white
collar car" you're likely to have less choice.

So it's two things: Can you buy a particular model
without electric windows at all, and if so, are there
any available without custom order. If the answer to
#1 is true then usually the answer to #2 will be true.
(Though with my Nissan I had to find the truck I
wanted online, through the Nissan site. The local
dealer then went to get it. They were in no hurry
to understand that they could have found that truck
themselves, preferring that I pick something on their
lot.)

As for service, I've never gone to a dealer for service
and never would. In the US they price gouge, exploiting
people who think only the dealer can fix it properly. My
local dealer would love for me to go in for periodic
checks and oil changes.

I did go in for a recall with my last Toyota. About
5 years ago, I guess. The model was recalled for excessive
rusting. For some reason, underbody coating is no longer
available in the US and my truck was, indeed, rusting.
So I took it in. They did some kind of idiotic painting
job, painting on something that looked like dirty motor
oil with rubber dust in it. The stuff never dried. Messy.
And it doidn't sem to slow the rusting, which is part
of why I traded it in later. The dealer I went to was
in a wealthy town. The staff for doing the recall work
appeared to be a dozen Brazillians. Apparently they
were importing low-wage "wetbacks" to save money
on the recall costs. As it turned out, they broke a bolt
on one of the exhaust pipe sensors and didn't fix it.
That quickly started making noise and I had to fix it.

| > In my current Nissan Frontier I wanted an
| >automatic, so I also had to take AC, bluetooth,
| >cruise control, quad-speaker CD player. Those
| >were all classified as "standard, at no charge".
| >I didn't want any of them. (Though I do use the
| >AC.) At the same time, I had to pay extra to
| >get "optional" floor mats. :)
|
| You put optional in quotes - what would have been there if you'd
| declined the "option"?

It's carpetted. But without mats the carpet would
quickly become filthy, damp most of the time, and
salt-damaged in Winter. So the mats were worth
getting. I think they were something like $50.

On my first Toyota pickup the rear bumper was
optional. I made my own from 2x6 oak. (Red oak.
Not as hard and durable as English brown oak, but
still pretty tough.) One of my brothers has a
welding setup and he made me brackets for it. It
actually worked well. But now I'm older and I want
quality. So I have a nice chrome bumper, almost
as thick as a Coke can. :)

Ironically, the best bumper I ever had was on a cheap
Fiat 128, in the 80s. It had shock absorbers. Very
sensible. Most cars now in the US just
have painted plastic. You get in an accident and the
bumper flies off down the street. Then you can't get
it back on because the plastic brackets snapped in
the crash. It's actually not a bumper at all. More like
a skirt.

| So you could buy a standard transmission without A/C (etc.), but not
| auto? Interesting. Says something about the
| manufacturers/dealers/whoever's attitude to purchasers of the different
| transmissions. (In UK, with the possible exception of high-end cars, a
| manual gearbox - as we call them - is still the default, although auto
| is available on most cars if you want it, even small ones.)

I think there are two factors. One is what people want.
What sells. The other is a simple case of being forced
to buy extra things. But here a manual has become
unusual. I specifically wanted to switch because the US
has gone stop-crazy. New lights and 4-way stops pop
up regularly. It's got to the point that an 8 mile drive to
work might easily involve over 50 lights and stop signs. No
exaggeration. And the cops like to run scam traps, getting
anyone who doesn't fully stop at a 4-way stop in the
middle of nowhere. So it was getting very tedious
to drive, constantly starting over in 1st gear.

| I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might have
| been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a radio to it
| for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the wiring, but
| actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which IIRR was
| adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)

Yes. I think most are like that. With my first Toyota
I bought a cigarette lighter at an auto parts store
and plugged it in. It's cheaper for them to just wire
in everything.

| > I've noticed that a big trend now is pickups
| >that have a steel, body-matching, hinged bed cover.
| >Essentially it's a 4-door sedan with a giant trunk.
|
| (-:
|
I'm not sure there's any correlate in Britain. In
the US there's a big-stuff obsession. There's also
a macho obsession and a pioneer mythology. Brits
pride themselves on intelligence. Yanks pride
themselves on tough. In the American West and
rural areas, a pickup plays the fantasy role of a
horse. Supermarket clerks and car wash lackeys;
coffee shop waiters and gas station attendants;
even white collar workers; they drive around in a
pickup with a rifle rack in the back window, maybe
wearing a cowboy hat, and probably with rope in
the bed, just in case they come across John Wayne
needing help to pull his wagon out of a ravine
before some nasty injuns or bandoleros arrive. :)

| >There may come a time when people think it's
| >odd to sell a pickup without a bed cover. Then
| >someone will "invent" the work truck.
| >
| All these things go around and come around. In computers, it used to be
| mainframes with dumb terminals (in extremis, even electromechanical ones
| called teletypes); then the terminals got more and more included into
| them, until we had the PC. Then it went round again, with servers and
| "thin clients", ...

I hate that analogy. (But that's OK. You didn't
know. :) It bugs me because it's part of the marketing
to make cloud sound like it makes sense when really
cloud is mostly just a power grab. People had
terminals off of mainframes because a usable
computer actually had to be the size of a room.
Services for PCs are an unnecessary scam invention
that are only now becoming possible, due to constant,
fast connections, but are still not relevant. For the
most part -- as with Office 365 or Photoshop --
they're not even running remotely. It's not a thin
client running remote "rich" functionality. It's a
powerful, multi-core machine with no reason not
to run all software locally.
I suppose a computer phone could be thought
of as a thin client. But making a PC thin client
would be idiotic. One can't even buy hardware
that limited. Last I saw, 16 GB was the lowest level
of RAM for sale, per stick.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 15:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| I haven't looked at a _new_ car for many years (possibly decades!), but
| I _think_ they are still available in UK. (Not sure though: electric
| ones may actually be cheaper to _make_ now.)
I doubt that. I doubt even more that they could
be cheaper to repair. And cranks rarely need repair.
I agree the cranks themselves do. Though - here, anyway - there are two
types: one that operates a toothed spur that is attached to the glass,
and one that has a complicated arrangement using thin steel cable, that
goes round several pulleys, and is clamped to the glass. It was the
latter type I once had go faulty - the cable gets tangled, and you have
to be careful even with the new one not to get it caught on anything
while fitting it.
Post by Mayayana
My first pickup was about 19 years old when a
spaced out teen slammed into it while it was parked
on a quiet side street. The driver's side window crank
was beginning to slip at that point. An electronic window
control probably would have failed long before. Similarly
with electronic ignition. A new key costs me maybe $3.
A new electric key costs more like $130. And my door
lock can't be hacked remotely.
I think you mean electronic _access_ (or locking or whatever). To me,
electronic _ignition_ is the thing that replaces points, and eventually
the rotor arm - and _is_ considerably more reliable (and I think capable
of working at all with parts sufficiently worn that the mechanical
system wouldn't play ball).

The _access_, I couldn't agree with you more: it's the thing I'm
actually most dreading for next time I have to change my car. I don't
_want_ it, for the reasons you give! I have central _locking_, which is
nice to have and relatively simple (i. e. I open/close the driver or
passenger door - with the key! - and the other three doors unlock/lock),
but that's still based on a mechanical lock; I _don't_ want a key that
costs a fortune, could be unreliable, and could be hacked. (OK, the
remote beepy to find the car in a car park would be nice, but only for
the finding - I can't actually get in until I'm at the car anyway, can
I! - so the remote unlocking doesn't actually save me time.) [My key
_does_ have a button in it - but what it does, or rather once did, is
light a little bulb (yes bulb!) in the key!]
[]
Post by Mayayana
As for service, I've never gone to a dealer for service
and never would. In the US they price gouge, exploiting
people who think only the dealer can fix it properly. My
I feel the same. (Though with modern electronics, they probably can make
that true - unless there's legislation to prevent that. I buy cars older
than that - so far.)
[]
Post by Mayayana
| >AC.) At the same time, I had to pay extra to
| >get "optional" floor mats. :)
|
| You put optional in quotes - what would have been there if you'd
| declined the "option"?
It's carpetted. But without mats the carpet would
quickly become filthy, damp most of the time, and
salt-damaged in Winter. So the mats were worth
getting. I think they were something like $50.
Oh, so they were truly optional. I here see in cheap shops sets of
universal car mats; I imagine they're not all that universal, i. e.
there are cars they won't fit, but they're a lot less than that!
[]
Post by Mayayana
Ironically, the best bumper I ever had was on a cheap
Fiat 128, in the 80s. It had shock absorbers. Very
sensible. Most cars now in the US just
have painted plastic. You get in an accident and the
bumper flies off down the street. Then you can't get
it back on because the plastic brackets snapped in
the crash. It's actually not a bumper at all. More like
a skirt.
And/or they cost an arm and a leg, because they're colour-coded to the
car's paint job ...

Reminds me of a funny from a few years ago: one person was suggesting
that bumpers (I thought the US called them fenders?) be a standard
height. Someone else said that's daft, otherwise you'd have to have them
the same height on a Rolls-Royce as on a mini (that was the original
mini, which was tiny, not the current BMW one). Then someone produced a
picture showing that, in fact, the bumpers on those two cars _were_ at
the same height. Cue very sheepish look from one person ...
Post by Mayayana
| So you could buy a standard transmission without A/C (etc.), but not
| auto? Interesting. Says something about the
| manufacturers/dealers/whoever's attitude to purchasers of the different
| transmissions. (In UK, with the possible exception of high-end cars, a
| manual gearbox - as we call them - is still the default, although auto
| is available on most cars if you want it, even small ones.)
I think there are two factors. One is what people want.
What sells. The other is a simple case of being forced
to buy extra things. But here a manual has become
unusual. I specifically wanted to switch because the US
has gone stop-crazy. New lights and 4-way stops pop
up regularly. It's got to the point that an 8 mile drive to
work might easily involve over 50 lights and stop signs. No
exaggeration.
Hmm, 12½ to the mile - wouldn't surprise me in London ...
[]
Post by Mayayana
| I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might have
| been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a radio to it
| for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the wiring, but
| actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which IIRR was
| adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
Yes. I think most are like that. With my first Toyota
I bought a cigarette lighter at an auto parts store
and plugged it in. It's cheaper for them to just wire
in everything.
I haven't seen a car here that didn't have that power outlet, for years.
(Or that didn't have the lighter actually in it when new, though that's
often got lost in older cars.)
Post by Mayayana
| > I've noticed that a big trend now is pickups
| >that have a steel, body-matching, hinged bed cover.
| >Essentially it's a 4-door sedan with a giant trunk.
|
|
I'm not sure there's any correlate in Britain. In
the US there's a big-stuff obsession. There's also
Here, there's not really _room_. Due I think mainly to health and safety
regulations cars have got _bigger_, but most houses in towns and cities
don't have anywhere to _put_ a big truck. We do _have_ them, but they're
a lot rarer.
[]
Post by Mayayana
even white collar workers; they drive around in a
pickup with a rifle rack in the back window, maybe
wearing a cowboy hat, and probably with rope in
the bed, just in case they come across John Wayne
needing help to pull his wagon out of a ravine
before some nasty injuns or bandoleros arrive. :)
I carry jump leads and an X-shaped wheelbrace - much more likely to be
helpful to someone in difficulties! (Plus I get great satisfaction if
I'm able to give a jump-start from my Škoda to, say, a BMW, Mercedes,
or similar ...)
Post by Mayayana
| >There may come a time when people think it's
| >odd to sell a pickup without a bed cover. Then
| >someone will "invent" the work truck.
| >
| All these things go around and come around. In computers, it used to be
| mainframes with dumb terminals (in extremis, even electromechanical ones
| called teletypes); then the terminals got more and more included into
| them, until we had the PC. Then it went round again, with servers and
| "thin clients", ...
I hate that analogy. (But that's OK. You didn't
know. :) It bugs me because it's part of the marketing
to make cloud sound like it makes sense when really
I was thinking as I was writing it that it wasn't quite right, but the
principle of "old ideas being reinvented" remains.
Post by Mayayana
cloud is mostly just a power grab. People had
terminals off of mainframes because a usable
computer actually had to be the size of a room.
Services for PCs are an unnecessary scam invention
that are only now becoming possible, due to constant,
fast connections, but are still not relevant. For the
Couldn't agree more. I'd love to turn most of them off - I just don't
have the inclination to spend the time finding out which ones I can, and
as you say, it's not necessary now due to the (wasteful) surplus of
processor power and bandwidth.
[]
Post by Mayayana
of as a thin client. But making a PC thin client
would be idiotic. One can't even buy hardware
that limited. Last I saw, 16 GB was the lowest level
of RAM for sale, per stick.
The unit cost does keep pushing up the bottom. You'd have hoped that,
say, 386- or 486-based PCs would now just cost a few bucks (and be the
size of a paperback book), but it became uneconomic (in terms of
returning profit for the manufacturers) to make them, so they just
disappeared altogether. (Sure, you can get them second-hand, and use
them as a media/print server or similar, but only if you're a geek, as
they're full size boxes. And unreliable due to their age.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I'm the oldest woman on primetime not baking cakes.
- Anne Robinson, RT 2015/8/15-21
Mayayana
2018-08-07 16:48:36 UTC
Permalink
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| I have central _locking_, which is
| nice to have and relatively simple (i. e. I open/close the driver or
| passenger door - with the key! - and the other three doors unlock/lock),
| but that's still based on a mechanical lock;

How sensible. We in the US seem to always get
the best designs last. The designers are always busy
working on the fantasy aspect -- curves, angles,
widgets -- instead of sensible things.


| Reminds me of a funny from a few years ago: one person was suggesting
| that bumpers (I thought the US called them fenders?) be a standard
| height. Someone else said that's daft, otherwise you'd have to have them
| the same height on a Rolls-Royce as on a mini (that was the original
| mini, which was tiny, not the current BMW one). Then someone produced a
| picture showing that, in fact, the bumpers on those two cars _were_ at
| the same height. Cue very sheepish look from one person ...

We call the quarter panel a fender. I think the
requirement here is that bumpers protect from
damage at 2 mph. So pretty much no regulation.
There are now extensive requirements for air
bags and seat belts, but a bumper can be useless.
Not to mention that most trucks don't comply.
A flatbed tow truck will usually have a bumber,
but the steel plate of the bed, aimed right at
my head, sticks out too far for the bumper to
pprevent decapitation. Why is that allowed? I
don't know.

There was a funny scene in a movie a few years
ago. Sylvester Stallone, in the future where he's
a cop hunting Wesley Snipes, gets into an accident
and the whole car instantly fills with foam which
then hardens to styrofoam. Stallone was encased
and had to pick his way out.

| > Yes. I think most are like that. With my first Toyota
| >I bought a cigarette lighter at an auto parts store
| >and plugged it in. It's cheaper for them to just wire
| >in everything.
|
| I haven't seen a car here that didn't have that power outlet, for years.
| (Or that didn't have the lighter actually in it when new, though that's
| often got lost in older cars.)

We're not allowed to have those here. It's politically
incorrect to be aware of cigarette lighters. But I think
I do have a port for charging my non-existent iPhone.
Likewise, it's non-PC to have an ashtray. Instead of
a drawer we now get a tiny shelf, which are not as
useful. But we can't have ashtrays because the sight
of it might trigger an acute aversion episode in some
sensitive people who have their priorities straight.
Next thing you know, the car saelsmen is being sentenced
to 100 hours of community service working for a MeToo
activist group or a pronouns committee. Better to have
a tiny cubbyhole that's not useful for much of anything.

| I carry jump leads and an X-shaped wheelbrace - much more likely to be
| helpful to someone in difficulties! (Plus I get great satisfaction if
| I'm able to give a jump-start from my Skoda to, say, a BMW, Mercedes,
| or similar ...)

Skoda... I had to look that one up. How did you
get the S? copied from their website?


| Couldn't agree more. I'd love to turn most of them off - I just don't
| have the inclination to spend the time finding out which ones I can, and
| as you say, it's not necessary now due to the (wasteful) surplus of
| processor power and bandwidth.

We were talking about that recently. But in this
case I meant Web services. The thin client scam.
Renting software under the pretense that there
are logical reasons to rent rather than buy.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 18:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| I have central _locking_, which is
| nice to have and relatively simple (i. e. I open/close the driver or
| passenger door - with the key! - and the other three doors unlock/lock),
| but that's still based on a mechanical lock;
How sensible. We in the US seem to always get
the best designs last. The designers are always busy
working on the fantasy aspect -- curves, angles,
widgets -- instead of sensible things.
It's not new - positively old hat by now! Most modern ones are remote
lock/unlock (I presume all doors).
[]
Post by Mayayana
| I haven't seen a car here that didn't have that power outlet, for years.
| (Or that didn't have the lighter actually in it when new, though that's
| often got lost in older cars.)
We're not allowed to have those here. It's politically
incorrect to be aware of cigarette lighters. But I think
I do have a port for charging my non-existent iPhone.
Well, I'm _assuming_ they're lighters; certainly that power outlet is
common (often one in the back for the rear passengers too), and usually
covered; I'd assumed the cover was a lighter, but could just be a cover
I suppose. (The industry I think calls them cigar lighters.)
[]
Post by Mayayana
activist group or a pronouns committee. Better to have
I love "pronouns committee".
[]
Post by Mayayana
Skoda... I had to look that one up. How did you
get the S? copied from their website?
Lada and Škoda: used to be joke makes here - you lost all street cred
if you had either. Ladas were made in Russia (I think it was USSR then),
Škodas in IIRR Czechoslovakia; both very cheap. (And, to be fair, not
nearly as bad as made out; I had a series of them, and they gave me no
more trouble than other cars I've had before or since. No less, either.)
The Ladas were very solidly built, though certainly nothing to write
home about performance wise. (Also very high.) The Lada make (it wasn't
called that in Russia) disappeared from Britain; with the collapse of
communism, the Škoda works was more or less taken into the Volkswagen
empire, and now makes modern sophisticated cars, using a lot of VW parts
and knowledge - though they still sell for somewhat less than VWs, and
are considered a bargain by those who know about them. Mine is from the
transitional period - I think it may be the last production Diesel that
_isn't_ a turbo. Still, it does me, and I get about 50 miles per gallon
on a good run.

How did I get the Š? I've memorized all the Alt-codes ... no, seriously
(though I _do_ know quite a lot of them! But that's only of use if you
have a numeric keypad, which most smaller laptops don't), I use an
excellent piece of software called AllChars - get it from
http://allchars.zwolnet.com/ . There are I think a few such utilities,
but I find that one very intuitive. You tap _and release_ the Ctrl key,
then type two keys in succession - and which two is what I find very
intuitive: e' for é, o" for ö, ^S for Š, ~n for ñ, and so on. (I
think the order doesn't matter for a lot of them.) And he's put in a few
others, not just odd letters: 12 gives ½, 34 ¾, +- ±, dg °, xx ×,
and so on. (I hope those all come through usenet.)
Post by Mayayana
| Couldn't agree more. I'd love to turn most of them off - I just don't
| have the inclination to spend the time finding out which ones I can, and
| as you say, it's not necessary now due to the (wasteful) surplus of
| processor power and bandwidth.
We were talking about that recently. But in this
case I meant Web services. The thin client scam.
Renting software under the pretense that there
are logical reasons to rent rather than buy.
Right. Obviously, Windows will go that way soon, I expect. There's
little software around I need/want anything new of anyway; I'm perfectly
happy with Office 2003 (presumably 15 years old), IrfanView (free for
home use), VLC, and a few others, so can't see the need to even consider
any of the rental ones. (My references to thin clients wasn't meant to
press your button - I was just making a, poor, parallel to your
suggestion that someone'll [re]invent the work truck one of these days.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"... all your hard work in the hands of twelve people too stupid to get off jury
duty." CSI, 200x
Wolf K
2018-08-07 20:39:55 UTC
Permalink
| I have central_locking_, which is
| nice to have and relatively simple (i. e. I open/close the driver or
| passenger door - with the key! - and the other three doors unlock/lock),
| but that's still based on a mechanical lock;
How sensible. We in the US seem to always get
the best designs last. The designers are always busy
working on the fantasy aspect -- curves, angles,
widgets -- instead of sensible things.
[...]

Cars aren't for transportation, they are for fantasy fulfillment. They
promote the illusion that you're in control. I mean, if you can control
the car, you obviously are in control of your life, right? Sure.

As transportation, they are appallingly wasteful: less than 10% of the
fuel is used to move the usually lone occupant. I've done the arithmetic:
http://kirkwood40.blogspot.com/2018/03/how-efficient-is-car.html

Have a nice day,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Wolf K
2018-08-07 20:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
We were talking about that recently. But in this
case I meant Web services. The thin client scam.
Renting software under the pretense that there
are logical reasons to rent rather than buy.
Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes maintenance.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Mayayana
2018-08-07 21:09:09 UTC
Permalink
"Wolf K" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote

| Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
maintenance.
|

I don't see why. If I buy a drill for $100 I
can write it off. If I lease a drill for $10/month
I can also write it off. I can write off more
with the lease, but only because I spent more.
Anyone who's self-employed knows that's not
a good deal.

Software rental generally includes updates.
That's one of the two scam selling points:
"free" updates and online storage. Do you
necessarily want Adobe CS updates? Do you
want online storage? The storage provides another
way for them to make the software appear to be
running online. If you don't make local copies
of your work it will *only* be on Adobe's server!

Adobe and others wouldn't be doing this if
they didn't make more money from it. Even their
most dedicated customers were generally skipping
every other update. Many other people rarely
need updates. Renting the software means
everyone pays regularly. In fact, to a great extent,
the reason for the new rental push is precisely
because people don't need updates, because most
popular software is already mature. Adobe finished
the product years ago. Now they just add clever
things like the ability to fill in a gap in an image
convincingly. That's an impressive feature, but aside
from magazine journalists it's of very little value
to anyone. But since they're charging rental they
have to keep adding stuff.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 23:53:40 UTC
Permalink
In message <pkd1q3$lg0$***@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<***@invalid.nospam> writes:
[]
Post by Mayayana
Adobe and others wouldn't be doing this if
they didn't make more money from it. Even their
most dedicated customers were generally skipping
every other update. Many other people rarely
need updates. Renting the software means
[]
The car manufacturers and credit providers, between them, seem to have
quietly turned cars into the same steady-payment model too, at least
here. I haven't seen a car ad. on TV for months - possibly years - that
actually mentions the purchase price of the car being advertised; they
only mention the monthly cost (of purchasing it).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

G B Shaw said: "Few people think more than two or three times a year; I have
made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twice a week."
(quoted by "Dont Bother" [sic], 2015-8-24.)
pjp
2018-08-08 00:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Mayayana
Adobe and others wouldn't be doing this if
they didn't make more money from it. Even their
most dedicated customers were generally skipping
every other update. Many other people rarely
need updates. Renting the software means
[]
The car manufacturers and credit providers, between them, seem to have
quietly turned cars into the same steady-payment model too, at least
here. I haven't seen a car ad. on TV for months - possibly years - that
actually mentions the purchase price of the car being advertised; they
only mention the monthly cost (of purchasing it).
I've never seen it mentioned in any ad what the purchase price "really"
is for a very long time now. What I'd like to know is what the dealer
marks the selling price up by versus what he pays for it.
Wolf K
2018-08-08 15:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjp
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Mayayana
Adobe and others wouldn't be doing this if
they didn't make more money from it. Even their
most dedicated customers were generally skipping
every other update. Many other people rarely
need updates. Renting the software means
[]
The car manufacturers and credit providers, between them, seem to have
quietly turned cars into the same steady-payment model too, at least
here. I haven't seen a car ad. on TV for months - possibly years - that
actually mentions the purchase price of the car being advertised; they
only mention the monthly cost (of purchasing it).
I've never seen it mentioned in any ad what the purchase price "really"
is for a very long time now. What I'd like to know is what the dealer
marks the selling price up by versus what he pays for it.
If you're talking net, it's not much, a few hundred dollars at most.
Their overheads include fees for manufacturer advertising among other
things they can't control. With the reduction in dealerships, they now
get more of their income from warranty service and maintenance/repairs.
People keep their cars longer, so the repeat customer income is down.
Etc. I wouldn't want to be a car dealer in today's business climate.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Wolf K
2018-08-08 14:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
maintenance.
|
I don't see why. If I buy a drill for $100 I
can write it off. If I lease a drill for $10/month
I can also write it off. I can write off more
with the lease, but only because I spent more.
Anyone who's self-employed knows that's not
a good deal.
[...]

It depends on tax rules, e.g., depreciation rates. Reminder: enterprise
level software can cost millions.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Mayayana
2018-08-08 16:10:09 UTC
Permalink
"Wolf K" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote

| > | Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| > | tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
| > maintenance.
| > |
| >
| > I don't see why. If I buy a drill for $100 I
| > can write it off. If I lease a drill for $10/month
| > I can also write it off. I can write off more
| > with the lease, but only because I spent more.
| > Anyone who's self-employed knows that's not
| > a good deal.
| [...]
|
| It depends on tax rules, e.g., depreciation rates. Reminder: enterprise
| level software can cost millions.
|

You're conflating a lot of issues there and talking
in generalities. This is a real issue of cost, not a
generality. None of us is buying "enterprise" software.
And in most cases that's already rental. A corporation
has a choice with Windows: Sign up for Windows
rental per seat or per copy, as a rental deal, or risk
the BSA swat team descending on their company
at any time if they decide to buy regular Windows
licenses:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090707112937/http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

And of course, with Win10, not going enterprise
licensing also means your copies of windows will
be subject to microsoft's unpaid beta testing program.
You can't block updates.

For cars you have to depreciate. Then there
are also issues like whether you want to deal with
reselling a car you own. So it might sometimes
make more sense to lease. But cars have nothing
to do with software.

For most people, pro or not, this is just a
question of whether or not it's worth it to you
to buy Windows, Photoshop, etc.

You can't depreciate the cost of business software
on your taxes even if you wanted to. It's classed
as an office expense on schedule C.

So it's really very simple: Are you better off
renting or buying? If you pay $600/year to Adobe
you can write that off. But of course that's only
written off your total taxable income before calculating
taxes. So maybe you save $200 in taxes? Is it
worth spending $600 to save $200? Obviously not.

Anyone would have to figure out the details for
themselves. Do you already have a cop of CS6
that serves your needs? Maybe that will serve
your needs for many years to come? Then you
can save thousands by not renting. Do you
want to hire a hotshot designer who insists on
having the latest Adobe package? Then maybe
you want to rent for that person.

From what I've seen of Adobe's pricing,
it's not small task to figure out exactly what it would
cost to rent their software. I've seen quotes from
$10-50/month, depending on various factors. The
point is, you no longer get to choose. You can only
rent Adobe software. And the reason, of course, is
that they don't make as much money by selling their
software. Software rental is not a practical idea
in most situations. It's a moneymaking scam.
Wolf K
2018-08-08 18:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| > | Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| > | tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
| > maintenance.
| > |
| >
| > I don't see why. If I buy a drill for $100 I
| > can write it off. If I lease a drill for $10/month
| > I can also write it off. I can write off more
| > with the lease, but only because I spent more.
| > Anyone who's self-employed knows that's not
| > a good deal.
| [...]
|
| It depends on tax rules, e.g., depreciation rates. Reminder: enterprise
| level software can cost millions.
|
You're conflating a lot of issues there and talking
in generalities. This is a real issue of cost, not a
generality. None of us is buying "enterprise" software.
Sorry, I was merely thinking that for a business, renting software might
be a better deal, depending on a lot of factors. I still don't know
whether software would/could count as a capital cost. The rule of thumb
is "Exceeding X dollars purchase prices, and expected life of Y years or
more", where for tax purposes X and Y are jurisdiction dependent. I'm
sorry if you took that to include you. Someone else raised the business
angle, I saw no reason to limit my generalities.

[...]
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Mayayana
2018-08-08 18:45:46 UTC
Permalink
"Wolf K" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote

| Sorry, I was merely thinking that for a business, renting software might
| be a better deal, depending on a lot of factors. I still don't know
| whether software would/could count as a capital cost.

Yes. Look it up. What difference does it make,
anyway? Of course, you do have to be able to
convince the IRS that it's a business expense. :)

| Someone else raised the business
| angle, I saw no reason to limit my generalities.
|

What I'm saying is it makes no difference. I could
conceivably want software for my business. But
whether I rent or buy would still depend on my
own costs and what I need it for. Tax writeoff
will be a minor factor.

I'm guessing you don't do your own taxes. The
idea of "capital expense" just simply doesn't matter
here. 1) It's not depreciable. It is a capital expense.
2) You still pay either way and thus you still write
it off either way. Whether you stretch that out
will make very little difference in your actual taxes.
The difference it does make will be dwarfed by the
difference in costs. In other words, if you buy now
for $500 and use it for 10 years, vs renting for
$20/month, any difference in tax savings will be
dwarfed by the difference in cost. You'll save more
on taxes with rental only because you spent so
much more.

Maybe you're thinking that maybe a big corporation
could benefit from paying $1M month vs $10M in
a lump sum... Maybe it's possible there could
be a case where rental makes sense tax-wise,
in a big way? It's hard to see how. That would
be the exception to the rule. The main point is
that no one has a choice now with Adobe and
some others.

What Microsoft is doing is actually very similar.
They sell cars. Now they say they want to offer
a taxi service. But you won't have a choice. They're
only going to offer the taxi service and given their
monopoly position you'll have little choice but to
go along.
Mayayana
2018-08-07 22:53:18 UTC
Permalink
"Wolf K" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote

| Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
maintenance.
|

Maybe the best way to look at it is just like anything
else. If you need a car or a tool you buy it. If you only
need it for a few days you rent it. If you need a
reference book you buy it. If you need access to
a changeable database, you rent it.

We do whatever makes most sense. Usually the
decision of whether to buy is based on whether it
costs less than renting in the long run. With cars
there are other things to consider, like whether
you want to handle reselling a car or find it easier
to just lease. But in general, we do what makes most
sense for our needs.

The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
option makes the least money for them. So they don't
allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
your needs. You can only rent.
pjp
2018-08-08 01:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
maintenance.
|
Maybe the best way to look at it is just like anything
else. If you need a car or a tool you buy it. If you only
need it for a few days you rent it. If you need a
reference book you buy it. If you need access to
a changeable database, you rent it.
We do whatever makes most sense. Usually the
decision of whether to buy is based on whether it
costs less than renting in the long run. With cars
there are other things to consider, like whether
you want to handle reselling a car or find it easier
to just lease. But in general, we do what makes most
sense for our needs.
The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
option makes the least money for them. So they don't
allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
your needs. You can only rent.
Which is exactly what MS wants to do with Windows. I'll not buy into it
and I'll stay at Win 7 on my 12 pcs for as long as I can. When I can't
I'll find some other alternative besides renting.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-08 15:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Is Software classed as a capital expense? If so, it may be
| tax-advantageous to rent it, especially if the rental includes
maintenance.
|
Maybe the best way to look at it is just like anything
else. If you need a car or a tool you buy it. If you only
need it for a few days you rent it. If you need a
reference book you buy it. If you need access to
a changeable database, you rent it.
We do whatever makes most sense. Usually the
decision of whether to buy is based on whether it
costs less than renting in the long run. With cars
there are other things to consider, like whether
you want to handle reselling a car or find it easier
to just lease. But in general, we do what makes most
sense for our needs.
The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
option makes the least money for them. So they don't
allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
your needs. You can only rent.
Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
nothing.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Mayayana
2018-08-08 16:15:34 UTC
Permalink
"pyotr filipivich" <***@mindspring.com> wrote

| > The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
| >they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
| >It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
| >want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
| >option makes the least money for them. So they don't
| >allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
| >your needs. You can only rent.
|
| Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
| 2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
| data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
| concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
| nothing.
|

Yikes. You mean they actually broke the existing
software you had bought? How was that possible?
You can't buy Photoshop today, but as far as
I know, no one has claimed that Adobe hacked in
and broke their existing copy of Photoshop.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-09 00:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| > The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
| >they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
| >It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
| >want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
| >option makes the least money for them. So they don't
| >allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
| >your needs. You can only rent.
|
| Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
| 2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
| data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
| concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
| nothing.
Yikes. You mean they actually broke the existing
software you had bought? How was that possible?
I forget the details at this point. And it may have been that
while I could download the bank data, I could no longer update the
stock portfolio. I think it was the later, but the idea that I have
to send them money to keep using all the features, I was not a happy
customer.
Post by Mayayana
You can't buy Photoshop today, but as far as
I know, no one has claimed that Adobe hacked in
and broke their existing copy of Photoshop.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-09 07:37:31 UTC
Permalink
[]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
| Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
| 2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
| data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
| concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
| nothing.
Yikes. You mean they actually broke the existing
software you had bought? How was that possible?
I forget the details at this point. And it may have been that
while I could download the bank data, I could no longer update the
stock portfolio. I think it was the later, but the idea that I have
to send them money to keep using all the features, I was not a happy
customer.
Was using it something that involved use of their server, or some such
facility? If it broke something that you had previously been doing, that
only involved your computer (and perhaps the computer of your brokerage
firm, if by "update the stock portfolio" you mean buying and/or selling
shares), then it's a rum do indeed. Though I suppose if the brokerage
firm changed _their_ end so it wouldn't work with the older software,
that's also sad but as inevitable as websites that won't work with old
browsers - though if they did that, I'd have hoped they'd have given you
sufficient notice before cutoff for you to transfer your portfolio to
another firm.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
You can't buy Photoshop today, but as far as
I know, no one has claimed that Adobe hacked in
and broke their existing copy of Photoshop.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never be led astray onto the path of virtue.
Mayayana
2018-08-09 12:56:24 UTC
Permalink
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| then it's a rum do indeed.

I like that. It's got a fun, clippity-clop cadence
to it, combined with a gruff bluntness. Unfortunately,
if I try to use it in the US no one will be able to
figure out what I'm saying.
RunDMC? Run do the deed? :)
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-09 16:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
| Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
| 2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
| data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
| concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
| nothing.
Yikes. You mean they actually broke the existing
software you had bought? How was that possible?
I forget the details at this point. And it may have been that
while I could download the bank data, I could no longer update the
stock portfolio. I think it was the later, but the idea that I have
to send them money to keep using all the features, I was not a happy
customer.
Was using it something that involved use of their server, or some such
facility? If it broke something that you had previously been doing, that
only involved your computer (and perhaps the computer of your brokerage
firm, if by "update the stock portfolio" you mean buying and/or selling
shares), then it's a rum do indeed. Though I suppose if the brokerage
firm changed _their_ end so it wouldn't work with the older software,
that's also sad but as inevitable as websites that won't work with old
browsers - though if they did that, I'd have hoped they'd have given you
sufficient notice before cutoff for you to transfer your portfolio to
another firm.
It was over thirteen yeas ago. Since then I've gotten married,
had two careers, three banks and four addresses. I don't recall.
It came to me yesterday: I have no financial records prior to Jan
2012. I have files from before then, but I don't know if I have the
software anymore. While handwritten ledgers might be less
"searchable", the technology for accessing them hasn't changed since
there were invented.
And I'm sure that I'm not alone in having records which can no
longer be read or used. Plot outline: there really was an "ancient
civilization", hundreds of thousands of years ago. But they were a
paperless society which made everything compostable and degradable.
Nothing for the archeologists to find.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Wolf K
2018-08-09 14:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
| > The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
| >they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
| >It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
| >want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
| >option makes the least money for them. So they don't
| >allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
| >your needs. You can only rent.
|
| Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
| 2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
| data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
| concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
| nothing.
Yikes. You mean they actually broke the existing
software you had bought? How was that possible?
I forget the details at this point. And it may have been that
while I could download the bank data, I could no longer update the
stock portfolio. I think it was the later, but the idea that I have
to send them money to keep using all the features, I was not a happy
customer.
Quicken offered yearly updates designed to "encourage" you to buy the
new version. Our club treasurer switched to another program.

From the Wikipedia article(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicken):
"Beginning with Quicken 2018, Quicken is now a subscription service.
Annual memberships can be purchased directly from Quicken.com and
two-year subscriptions can be purchased through several retailers.[11]"

The article doesn't mention that annual updates were incompatible with
earlier versions.


Have a good day,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-09 16:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
| > The problem with something like Adobe CS is that
| >they know buying makes most sense for their customers.
| >It takes months just to learn how to use it, so if you
| >want it you probably want to own a copy. But that
| >option makes the least money for them. So they don't
| >allow an option. You can't decide which is best for
| >your needs. You can only rent.
|
| Intuit did that with their Quicken accounting package back in
| 2005. Unless I updated the software, I could not even get my bank
| data loaded. I decided then and there, that as far as Quicken was
| concerned, nothing was better. And for the next six years, I used
| nothing.
Yikes. You mean they actually broke the existing
software you had bought? How was that possible?
I forget the details at this point. And it may have been that
while I could download the bank data, I could no longer update the
stock portfolio. I think it was the later, but the idea that I have
to send them money to keep using all the features, I was not a happy
customer.
Quicken offered yearly updates designed to "encourage" you to buy the
new version. Our club treasurer switched to another program.
"Beginning with Quicken 2018, Quicken is now a subscription service.
Annual memberships can be purchased directly from Quicken.com and
two-year subscriptions can be purchased through several retailers.[11]"
The article doesn't mention that annual updates were incompatible with
earlier versions.
That too. You could update the files, one way.
Post by Wolf K
Have a good day,
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-07 15:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Though that presumably meant ordering from the factory, not the dealer;
| on the whole I'd probably prefer to do that too, but would anticipate
| getting poor service from dealers as a result.
|
That's a relevant point, but in my experience doesn't
apply. I've never ordered a car or truck. I'm talking
about what's *normally* available. My Nissan with only
the AC package was in stock locally. The two Toyotas
I bought were in stock locally. I need them for work
and with two of them didn't have time to wait. So
that's what I was talking about: The variations in what
companies provide normally.
I bought the Mazda truck on a Saturday afternoon. I'd been up all
night and day, got towed in the last fifty miles, and I needed
something to get me to my friends place for the 4th, and then home.
"The truck I want is on this lot."
If the "fleet white" truck had been an extended cab, I'd have
gotten it, and would have explained the change (from"eggshell") as "I
finally washed the truck. Makes a great difference, eh?"

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Mayayana
2018-08-07 16:51:46 UTC
Permalink
"pyotr filipivich" <***@mindspring.com> wrote

| I bought the Mazda truck on a Saturday afternoon. I'd been up all
| night and day, got towed in the last fifty miles, and I needed
| something to get me to my friends place for the 4th, and then home.
| "The truck I want is on this lot."

I guess that's probably more common than not. People
get into accidents, or blow a gasket, and suddenly
their car is not worth saving. Ordering custom is
probably mostly for people who don't really need
their car, perhaps having a second one they can
use if necessary.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-07 20:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| I bought the Mazda truck on a Saturday afternoon. I'd been up all
| night and day, got towed in the last fifty miles, and I needed
| something to get me to my friends place for the 4th, and then home.
| "The truck I want is on this lot."
I guess that's probably more common than not. People
get into accidents, or blow a gasket, and suddenly
their car is not worth saving. Ordering custom is
probably mostly for people who don't really need
their car, perhaps having a second one they can
use if necessary.
I'll shop around when it is time to replace "this One" - if I can.
In that case, I "shopped around" the lot. Where there is no
alternative, there is no problem.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Wolf K
2018-08-07 20:14:33 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-08-07 09:58, Mayayana wrote:
[...]
Post by Mayayana
Ironically, the best bumper I ever had was on a cheap
Fiat 128, in the 80s. It had shock absorbers. Very
sensible. Most cars now in the US just
have painted plastic. You get in an accident and the
bumper flies off down the street. Then you can't get
it back on because the plastic brackets snapped in
the crash. It's actually not a bumper at all. More like
a skirt.
[...]

It's actually a bumper cover, the impact-absorbing (and breakable) metal
is underneath it. (My wife worked for an appraiser, I occasionally took
photos for them, that's how I learned about this and many other
non-intuitive aspects of car-design). Modern cars are designed to fly
apart and/or crush in collisions. This reduces deceleration G-forces
acting on the occupants, and together with seatbelts and airbags reduces
both injuries and deaths.

Here's an example. Happened yesterday:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/dashcam-video-crash-highway-401-crash-port-union-road-1.4775480

Have a good day,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Wolf K
2018-08-07 14:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Mayayana
| Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
| in many years.
I haven't looked at a _new_ car for many years (possibly decades!), but
I _think_ they are still available in UK. (Not sure though: electric
ones may actually be cheaper to _make_ now.)
[]
Post by Mayayana
  I think it varies by company. At one extreme
is Tesla, which even updates software remotely.
I wouldn't be surprised if they monitor your bladder
and cross-reference that with Google maps, then
pull over at the appropriate rest area.
LOL!
[]
Post by Mayayana
because everything was optional. So the base
price was low and you could get only the options
you wanted.
Though that presumably meant ordering from the factory, not the dealer;
on the whole I'd probably prefer to do that too, but would anticipate
getting poor service from dealers as a result. (Academic; I've never
actually bought a new car anyway, the closest being an ex-demo Lada.) [...]
Unless you buy off the lot, "ordering from the dealer _is_ "ordering
from the factory."

FWIW, I bought my last two cars from a local secondhand car dealer.
"Ordered" both times: asked to find me the car I wanted. He did.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Wolf K
2018-08-07 14:11:28 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-08-07 07:13, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might have
been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a radio to it
for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the wiring, but
actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which IIRR was
adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
[...]

In general, it's cheaper to build a standard base model prepped for all
add-ons than to build cars with different preps for different add-ons.
this is true for pretty well manufactured objects. Different models of
fridge will have the same handles, shelving, drawers, etc. And plugged
holes where the ice-maker or ice-water dispenser is attached in the
higher end ones.

Bits and pieces are often much cheaper than inventory control and
assembly costs.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 14:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might
have been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a
radio to it for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the
wiring, but actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which
IIRR was adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
[...]
In general, it's cheaper to build a standard base model prepped for all
add-ons than to build cars with different preps for different add-ons.
this is true for pretty well manufactured objects. Different models of
fridge will have the same handles, shelving, drawers, etc. And plugged
holes where the ice-maker or ice-water dispenser is attached in the
higher end ones.
Bits and pieces are often much cheaper than inventory control and
assembly costs.
I wouldn't have been that surprised to find all the wiring present, but
finding the actual speakers there, rather than as you say plugged holes
(or, more likely, just the push-on wires left hanging) did surprise me.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I'm the oldest woman on primetime not baking cakes.
- Anne Robinson, RT 2015/8/15-21
Wolf K
2018-08-07 20:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might
have  been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a
radio to it  for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the
wiring, but  actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which
IIRR was  adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
[...]
In general, it's cheaper to build a standard base model prepped for
all add-ons than to build cars with different preps for different
add-ons. this is true for pretty well manufactured objects. Different
models of fridge will have the same handles, shelving, drawers, etc.
And plugged holes where the ice-maker or ice-water dispenser is
attached in the higher end ones.
Bits and pieces are often much cheaper than inventory control and
assembly costs.
I wouldn't have been that surprised to find all the wiring present, but
finding the actual speakers there, rather than as you say plugged holes
(or, more likely, just the push-on wires left hanging) did surprise me.
Electronic components are dirt cheap these days. Packaging, warehousing,
and shipping for local retail sale often costs way more than the part
itself does. That's why the local electronics store carries very few if
any electronics parts. I recall the halcyon days when the Radio Shack
store had five or six aisles of parts, hundreds and hundreds of them.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Ken Blake
2018-08-07 20:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Electronic components are dirt cheap these days. Packaging, warehousing,
and shipping for local retail sale often costs way more than the part
itself does. That's why the local electronics store carries very few if
any electronics parts. I recall the halcyon days when the Radio Shack
store had five or six aisles of parts, hundreds and hundreds of them.
When I was a teenager (before there was a Radio Shack), going to high
school in the Bronx, I used to build radios, etc. After school I would
often stop in a local electronics store to buy parts. Sometimes I
would buy parts I needed for something, but mostly I would just buy
parts to put into my box of stuff I *might* need some day. One of the
things I used to like to buy (they were very inexpensive) were old
circuit boards with components soldered onto them. I would unsolder
the resistors, capacitors, etc. and save then for the future (the
future that never came).

I don't remember when, but eventually I threw out all that junk.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-07 15:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might have
been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a radio to it
for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the wiring, but
actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which IIRR was
adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
[...]
In general, it's cheaper to build a standard base model prepped for all
add-ons than to build cars with different preps for different add-ons.
this is true for pretty well manufactured objects. Different models of
fridge will have the same handles, shelving, drawers, etc. And plugged
holes where the ice-maker or ice-water dispenser is attached in the
higher end ones.
Bits and pieces are often much cheaper than inventory control and
assembly costs.
I'm reading how more and more, automakers are all buying major
components from the same range of suppliers. That is, Ford no longer
makes its own trannys, etc. So what is available for the high end
market now is because BMW has a deal for exclusive use for the next
couple years, and then the "innovation" will move down the make and
model, eventually "everybody" will have 8 speed "automated
transmission".

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Wolf K
2018-08-07 20:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I remember my Dad buying a very base-model car - I think it might have
been in the '80s, or possibly even the '70s - and fitting a radio to it
for him; I was surprised to find it not only had the wiring, but
actually had the speakers! (In the doors, anyway, which IIRR was
adequate for his wants. I'm pretty sure it was a Peugeot.)
[...]
In general, it's cheaper to build a standard base model prepped for all
add-ons than to build cars with different preps for different add-ons.
this is true for pretty well manufactured objects. Different models of
fridge will have the same handles, shelving, drawers, etc. And plugged
holes where the ice-maker or ice-water dispenser is attached in the
higher end ones.
Bits and pieces are often much cheaper than inventory control and
assembly costs.
I'm reading how more and more, automakers are all buying major
components from the same range of suppliers. That is, Ford no longer
makes its own trannys, etc. So what is available for the high end
market now is because BMW has a deal for exclusive use for the next
couple years, and then the "innovation" will move down the make and
model, eventually "everybody" will have 8 speed "automated
transmission".
tschus
pyotr
It will likely be a BMW transmission, or else one built under license
from BMW. :-)

It's been like that for decades. Cars aren't manufactured, they're
assembled. My 1964 Volvo was assembled in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Had a
Chevy exhaust system, for which Volvo charged an arm and two legs, but
which my preferred gas-station/maintenance shop installed for Chevy
prices, about 75% less.

The components are made all over the place, and the parts and materials
that go into the components are made all over the place, too. By the
time the car is finished, parts of it have crossed borders (and
sometimes oceans) several times, including shipments between plants
owned by the same company. Most of the assembly is done by robots:
Detroit is dead, but the USA assembles more cars these days than it did
in Detroit's heyday. That's a why a certain person's imposition of
tariffs is stupid. Car prices will go up, bigly.

Data point: My previous car was a 2005 Ford Escape, assembled in Kansas,
bought used. Drive-train was pure Mazda, as was most of the sheet-metal
and interior furniture. It was a "re-badged" Mazda Tribute with a
slightly softer suspension.

Have a good day,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-08 00:09:55 UTC
Permalink
In message <donaD.2282$***@fx14.iad>, Wolf K <***@sympatico.ca>
writes:
[]
Post by Wolf K
The components are made all over the place, and the parts and materials
that go into the components are made all over the place, too. By the
time the car is finished, parts of it have crossed borders (and
sometimes oceans) several times, including shipments between plants
This is being highlighted as one of the problems we're going to
experience after Brexit, if we don't get some sort of trade agreement in
place; at present, a lot of cars are "made" here (including German makes
like BMW), but using parts from all over Europe and beyond, which
themselves use parts from here, Europe, and beyond.
Post by Wolf K
Detroit is dead, but the USA assembles more cars these days than it did
in Detroit's heyday. That's a why a certain person's imposition of
tariffs is stupid. Car prices will go up, bigly.
(Even if the international nature wasn't the case, tariffs don't work
anyway, except very briefly for the protected manufacturers: as soon as
imported competition gets expensive due to the tariffs, local producers
up _their_ prices to match [you can't blame them, we'd do it in their
position], so the _consumer_ sees _all_ product - imported or
locally-made - go up, after a very short time - usually too short a time
for consumers to arrange a big purchase like a car. OK, the locally
"protected" manufacturers live high for a while, but their
competitiveness [efficiency of manufacture etc.] soon falls off, as
they're at an artificial advantage, and soon they _need_ the effective
subsidy just to continue.)
Post by Wolf K
Data point: My previous car was a 2005 Ford Escape, assembled in
Kansas, bought used. Drive-train was pure Mazda, as was most of the
sheet-metal and interior furniture. It was a "re-badged" Mazda Tribute
with a slightly softer suspension.
Have a good day,
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

G B Shaw said: "Few people think more than two or three times a year; I have
made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twice a week."
(quoted by "Dont Bother" [sic], 2015-8-24.)
Char Jackson
2018-08-08 05:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Data point: My previous car was a 2005 Ford Escape, assembled in Kansas,
bought used. Drive-train was pure Mazda, as was most of the sheet-metal
and interior furniture. It was a "re-badged" Mazda Tribute with a
slightly softer suspension.
To my knowledge, Ford never had an assembly plant in Kansas, did they?
They have one in Missouri, but that's "a whole state away", as the
locals say. (Claycomo, a suburb of Kansas City, MO.)

http://askus.thehenryford.org/faq/140528
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United_States#Ford_Motor_Company>
--
Char Jackson
Wolf K
2018-08-08 15:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Wolf K
Data point: My previous car was a 2005 Ford Escape, assembled in Kansas,
bought used. Drive-train was pure Mazda, as was most of the sheet-metal
and interior furniture. It was a "re-badged" Mazda Tribute with a
slightly softer suspension.
To my knowledge, Ford never had an assembly plant in Kansas, did they?
They have one in Missouri, but that's "a whole state away", as the
locals say. (Claycomo, a suburb of Kansas City, MO.)
Ah, my leaky memory: The door post label had "Kansas" on it, so it must
have been Kansas City. Thanks for the correction.


[...]
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-09 00:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
I'm reading how more and more, automakers are all buying major
components from the same range of suppliers. That is, Ford no longer
makes its own trannys, etc. So what is available for the high end
market now is because BMW has a deal for exclusive use for the next
couple years, and then the "innovation" will move down the make and
model, eventually "everybody" will have 8 speed "automated
transmission".
tschus
pyotr
It will likely be a BMW transmission, or else one built under license
from BMW. :-)
As I recall, BMW is licensing the transmissions from XYZ corp.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-07 15:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Mayayana
because everything was optional. So the base
price was low and you could get only the options
you wanted.
Though that presumably meant ordering from the factory, not the dealer;
on the whole I'd probably prefer to do that too, but would anticipate
getting poor service from dealers as a result. (Academic; I've never
actually bought a new car anyway, the closest being an ex-demo Lada.)
My mom would buy the dealer's "sample" - the one the salesman
drove. At the end of the model year. All the extras, a year's
maintenance, "used" but still "new". Such a deal.

And then there was Grandmother, who bought a new Buick Roadmaster
- loaded, and usually gave the old one to her daughter. The story
goes that one time Aunt D pulled into a gas station with it, and the
guy there exclaims "Lady, where did you get this car!?" To which my
Aunt replied "You'll never believe me, but I just got it from a little
old lady in Pasadena."

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Paul
2018-08-06 17:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window.
[...]
No hand-cranked car windows here anymore...
Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
in many years.
"Yes, You Can Still Buy a New Car With Manual Windows"

By Mike Hanley October 29, 2015

https://www.cars.com/articles/yes-you-can-still-buy-a-new-car-with-manual-windows-1420682584259/

But three years is a long time, and who knows
what the lineup shows this year.

And who knows what cars will look like, once
tariffs are priced in.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-08-06 17:57:44 UTC
Permalink
"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote

| "Yes, You Can Still Buy a New Car With Manual Windows"
|
| By Mike Hanley October 29, 2015
|
|
https://www.cars.com/articles/yes-you-can-still-buy-a-new-car-with-manual-windows-1420682584259/
|
| But three years is a long time, and who knows
| what the lineup shows this year.

Here's an article from last year:

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/top-12-cars-for-technophobes

My Nissan Frontier is first on the list. But it's mostly
sub-compact cars.
A similar list from 2 years ago:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/stripper-poll-how-many-vehicles-still-have-crank-windows-manual-locks-and-more

But that one doesn't seem to be accurate. They say
only some vans have fixed sterring columns. My pickup
has a fixed stereering column and the Ford F-150 I tried
also did. So I don't know where Car and Driver are getting
their stats. But to the extent that they might be accurate,
the pattern seems to match the other article: For
minimal standard options the possible vehicles are pickups,
jeeps and small sedans.
pjp
2018-08-06 22:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window.
[...]
No hand-cranked car windows here anymore...
Are cars with hand-cranked car windows still made? I haven't seen one
in many years.
Geez I haven't seen a hand cranked window in a car since I owned a Pony
30+ years ago :)

Although electric is convenient there are times I'd like to have it
disappear. One of my cars started having some electrical issues. One of
them is; I cannot get the back doors to unlock using switch. It is NOT
going to be easy to remove the covering with the door closed so one can
at least release the latch and open the doors far enough that if
neccessary one can disable the locks by disconnecting the wiring.

Radio goes off when one leaves the car and sometimes even if it was off
when in the car it starts while walking to house. Turn it off again with
key out and it stays off.

I'm starting to think it's the computer in the thing so looking at my
parts car and some wrenches me thinks to solve the problem. Either that
or make the problem car also a parts car as I own three Grand Am's and
almost all the parts fit any one of them.

I f'ing HATE cars!!! Such a wastefull product designed to wear out.
Mayayana
2018-08-07 01:02:18 UTC
Permalink
"pjp" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

| or make the problem car also a parts car as I own three Grand Am's and
| almost all the parts fit any one of them.
|

3 Grand Ams?! They still make those? Or do
they have cranks? A lot of investment in automotive
swank for a guy who hates cars. :)
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-06 17:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window.
[...]
No hand-cranked car windows here anymore...
Which is why automatic center punches get carried in cars &
trucks.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Char Jackson
2018-08-06 18:05:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 09:00:35 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window. But I'd like to be able to just open the door
and close the windows ("command switches on the driver's side"). Not
"open the door, scramble round to get the key in, close the windows,
and pull the key out."
When I was a kid, my dad had a pair of Lincoln Continentals that allowed
you to open/close the power windows without a key. On hot days, one of
us kids would get sent out to 'crack' the windows so the interior
wouldn't get so hot, then we'd have to go back and close the windows in
the evening. The keys were on top of the refrigerator, but they weren't
needed. My mom's cars, on the other hand, all either needed a key to
operate the power windows or they had hand cranks. We'd grab the keys
for the Cadillac and the Mercury, while the three Chevy's had the lowly
hand cranks.

My current vehicles both have power windows, but neither has the
capability to operate the windows without a key being present. Of
course, you don't actually insert a key anymore. These days, just having
the key nearby is good enough. I keep it in my pocket.
Post by pyotr filipivich
First world problem and all that.
True that.
--
Char Jackson
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-07 02:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 09:00:35 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
Or you have to get in to turn the key, in order to close the
passenger side window before it rains.
I doubt 1-2 seconds to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car.
Yes,it is only "a couple seconds" more. It is an annoyance. And
yes, it probably takes less time to put the key in than to manually
crank up each window. But I'd like to be able to just open the door
and close the windows ("command switches on the driver's side"). Not
"open the door, scramble round to get the key in, close the windows,
and pull the key out."
When I was a kid, my dad had a pair of Lincoln Continentals that allowed
you to open/close the power windows without a key. On hot days, one of
us kids would get sent out to 'crack' the windows so the interior
wouldn't get so hot, then we'd have to go back and close the windows in
the evening. The keys were on top of the refrigerator, but they weren't
needed. My mom's cars, on the other hand, all either needed a key to
operate the power windows or they had hand cranks. We'd grab the keys
for the Cadillac and the Mercury, while the three Chevy's had the lowly
hand cranks.
My current vehicles both have power windows, but neither has the
capability to operate the windows without a key being present. Of
course, you don't actually insert a key anymore. These days, just having
the key nearby is good enough. I keep it in my pocket.
Hmmm - nope. "Of course, this being one of the Older Models
(1999), we did have such highfaluting technogizmos in those days."
Post by Char Jackson
Post by pyotr filipivich
First world problem and all that.
True that.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Mark Lloyd
2018-08-06 17:42:52 UTC
Permalink
On 08/05/2018 09:29 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

[snip]
Post by VanguardLH
I doubt 1-2 seconds
plus the time it takes to FIND the key (or at least go and get it)
Post by VanguardLH
to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car. By the time you realize that you
need to close the window, it has already started or has been raining.
The problem is the car owner refusing to let you have their car key to
close their windows (because they won't or cannot); however, in that
case, you're not getting into their car to close the window, anyway,
whether the window is mechanical or electrical.
There are rural locations where car owners leave their cars unlocked all
the time, even when going into "town" (grain silos with one convenience
store). Are we making generalizations based on unusual scenarios? Do
those folks actually have a higher density of new cars or are they
mostly driving old and rusty pickups?
I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
would be nice to live in a place like that again.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to
enlighten oneself and others." [Voltaire]
Mayayana
2018-08-06 18:03:53 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Lloyd" <***@mail.invalid> wrote

| I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
| would be nice to live in a place like that again.
|

There's actually been a pattern of breakins
in suburban Boston lately: People go into
unlocked cars and steal whatever may be useful.
I was amazed at how many people have no car
alarm, or at least don't use it, and don't lock
their car overnight. I lock it just to go into the
bank. I don't want anyone stealing my crank
window hardware. :)
VanguardLH
2018-08-07 01:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
| would be nice to live in a place like that again.
|
There's actually been a pattern of breakins
in suburban Boston lately: People go into
unlocked cars and steal whatever may be useful.
I was amazed at how many people have no car
alarm, or at least don't use it, and don't lock
their car overnight. I lock it just to go into the
bank. I don't want anyone stealing my crank
window hardware. :)
Or your old radio that has those pushbuttons: the mechanical ones that
moved the dial needle to a station (e.g. http://tinyurl.com/y9fochuw).

A long time ago, some boob tried to pry open my moonroof (mechanical
popup on the rear, hinged on the front, no electric motor. He didn't
get in that way but he damaged the metal body all around the moonroof.
Then he smashed in the driver's window. What did he steal? Yep, the
mechanical pushbutton AM/FM radio. No Bluetooth (wasn't around back
then), no electrical contact switches for buttons, no digital tuning, no
disc player, or USB port (also not available back then), and no
high-power amp. Just a super cheap (probably $29 back then) AM/FM
mechanical pushbutton radio. He damaged the dash while wrangling out
the radio and thought he had to yank out the glove compartment door to
get behind the radio. The whole dash got replaced (was a LOT easier
back then to remove the dash). This happened many decades ago. Other
than at flea markets or swap meets, I'm not sure you could even buy a
radio like that nowadays. I'm sure there are some places for car buffs
that want to stock their restored oldies with original-like gear.

The cops wanted my insurance report for the total cost of the damage.
The radio was miniscule for its value. I asked them why they cared.
The guy had gone around the neighborhood breaking into other cars, too,
and they wanted to amass a total damage value to move his crime into
some higher category with more intense consequences. I told the cop
that if he wanted that crappy radio that bad that I would've left my
doors unlock and my windows open and even prep for its removal. That
was the most basic stock radio I could get with the car back then
because I planned to replace it; however, the boob beat me to its
removal although in a rather a damaging way.

The insurance guy looked askance at me when I filed the report. He
stopped being suspicious when I added the cost for the roof and dash
damage. I asked why he was leery and he said "radio-only theft" often
occurs by owners that want to upgrade but they don't destroy their dash
making the radio disappear. While my deductible was only $50 back then,
I told him the type of radio and I could care less if it was in the car
or not. In fact, when I ordered the car (yeah, back then I never bought
off the lot), I didn't want a radio but couldn't order a car without one
(unless the dealer removed it upon delivery but that wouldn't save me
any money).

The police recommend NOT leaving your smartphone in your car. It's an
attractive target for smash-and-grab thieves. They carry a spring-
loaded steel punch, press it against a side window, whack, the glass
crumbles, and they dive in grabbing whatever they find. If they can see
something through the windows, that's their first target and might be
what spurred them to break into your car. I will be using my old
smartphone as a dashcam. It will get stowed in the center console when
I leave the car and put into the windshield holder only when I get back
in to use it. But other items can spur a break-in, like purses, money,
USB drives, shopping bags, etc.
pjp
2018-08-06 22:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]
Post by VanguardLH
I doubt 1-2 seconds
plus the time it takes to FIND the key (or at least go and get it)
Post by VanguardLH
to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car. By the time you realize that you
need to close the window, it has already started or has been raining.
The problem is the car owner refusing to let you have their car key to
close their windows (because they won't or cannot); however, in that
case, you're not getting into their car to close the window, anyway,
whether the window is mechanical or electrical.
There are rural locations where car owners leave their cars unlocked all
the time, even when going into "town" (grain silos with one convenience
store). Are we making generalizations based on unusual scenarios? Do
those folks actually have a higher density of new cars or are they
mostly driving old and rusty pickups?
I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
would be nice to live in a place like that again.
I live ib a place like that. My lawn tractor spends most of it's summer
simply parked in drivewazy with the key in it even when not home. Same
with 1/2 dozen other things. Barn doors are always open. In fact seldom
even lock the house when we go out and it's empty. Car is never locked
when in the driveway and seldom when in local villages. In
Halifax/Dartmout & or Truro Yes I push the fob button and lock it. Oh,
and no neighbours can even see our house but it's easily seen by
passerbyers on road so it'd not be easy to steal stuff entirely
unnoticed. And also when I want I can run a complete survelience system
covers entire aproaches to house from any direction.
VanguardLH
2018-08-07 01:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjp
Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]
Post by VanguardLH
I doubt 1-2 seconds
plus the time it takes to FIND the key (or at least go and get it)
Post by VanguardLH
to turn the ignition to On will matter regarding how
much water has rained into your car. By the time you realize that you
need to close the window, it has already started or has been raining.
The problem is the car owner refusing to let you have their car key to
close their windows (because they won't or cannot); however, in that
case, you're not getting into their car to close the window, anyway,
whether the window is mechanical or electrical.
There are rural locations where car owners leave their cars unlocked all
the time, even when going into "town" (grain silos with one convenience
store). Are we making generalizations based on unusual scenarios? Do
those folks actually have a higher density of new cars or are they
mostly driving old and rusty pickups?
I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
would be nice to live in a place like that again.
I live ib a place like that. My lawn tractor spends most of it's summer
simply parked in drivewazy with the key in it even when not home. Same
with 1/2 dozen other things. Barn doors are always open. In fact seldom
even lock the house when we go out and it's empty. Car is never locked
when in the driveway and seldom when in local villages. In
Halifax/Dartmout & or Truro Yes I push the fob button and lock it. Oh,
and no neighbours can even see our house but it's easily seen by
passerbyers on road so it'd not be easy to steal stuff entirely
unnoticed. And also when I want I can run a complete survelience system
covers entire aproaches to house from any direction.
What, you don't like big dogs?
Java Jive
2018-08-07 12:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjp
Post by Mark Lloyd
I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
would be nice to live in a place like that again.
I live ib a place like that.
Here in the UK, there are fewer and fewer places like that, though I
think many locals around here think this is one. The truth is that
rural crime is on the increase, because there are rich pickings stealing
agricultural equipment and exporting it immediately after theft, so that
it's being loaded onto a ship about the time it's noticed missing:

"Rural crime rise prompts 'medieval' defences"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45042294
Wolf K
2018-08-07 14:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Java Jive
Post by pjp
Post by Mark Lloyd
I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
would be nice to live in a place like that again.
I live ib a place like that.
Here in the UK, there are fewer and fewer places like that, though I
think many locals around here think this is one.  The truth is that
rural crime is on the increase, because there are rich pickings stealing
agricultural equipment and exporting it immediately after theft, so that
"Rural crime rise prompts 'medieval' defences"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45042294
The truth is that rural crime rates have in general been higher than
city crime rates everywhere. Country and small-town folk mistake low
numbers for low rates. Do the "incidents/100K people" math, and you'll
be amazed at how dangerous the peaceful countryside is.

Have a nice day,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 14:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolf K
Post by Java Jive
Post by pjp
Post by Mark Lloyd
I remember that (no need to lock doors) from when I was a child. It
would be nice to live in a place like that again.
I live ib a place like that.
Here in the UK, there are fewer and fewer places like that, though I
think many locals around here think this is one.  The truth is that
rural crime is on the increase, because there are rich pickings
stealing agricultural equipment and exporting it immediately after
theft, so that it's being loaded onto a ship about the time it's
"Rural crime rise prompts 'medieval' defences"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45042294
The truth is that rural crime rates have in general been higher than
city crime rates everywhere. Country and small-town folk mistake low
numbers for low rates. Do the "incidents/100K people" math, and you'll
be amazed at how dangerous the peaceful countryside is.
Have a nice day,
True. Although it _can_ still be valid: if one in a hundred people is a
criminal, then the chances of your car surviving are better in
Tubleweedville, population 50, than in "the city". (And if one of those
_is_ a criminal, chances are the local cop might know who he is, whereas
in the city, probably less so.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I'm the oldest woman on primetime not baking cakes.
- Anne Robinson, RT 2015/8/15-21
Mayayana
2018-08-07 14:34:45 UTC
Permalink
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| >The truth is that rural crime rates have in general been higher than
| >city crime rates everywhere. Country and small-town folk mistake low
| >numbers for low rates. Do the "incidents/100K people" math, and you'll
| >be amazed at how dangerous the peaceful countryside is.

| True.

You both think that? Yet with no links or references.
I'd be surprised if it's true. And I would expect the US
to be different from Britain. In Britain, rural is not so
far away as it is in the US. Also, in the US most rural
people have guns and are prepared to take care of
themselves. Both of those factors discourage rural
crime. But I have no figures and don't know where
one might find such figures. If they exist, I'd be
curious about a comparison of types of crime and
also percentage of people who knew the criminal.
I'd expect the type to vary. For instance, if a drunken
teenager walks down the street kicking off rearview
mirrors, the same teenager in the country might light
a brush fire. Mischief in both cases. But different
results.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-08-07 15:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| >The truth is that rural crime rates have in general been higher than
| >city crime rates everywhere. Country and small-town folk mistake low
| >numbers for low rates. Do the "incidents/100K people" math, and you'll
| >be amazed at how dangerous the peaceful countryside is.
| True.
You both think that? Yet with no links or references.
You snipped my followon, which was mostly "true, but:" - in part
agreeing with what you've said below.
Post by Mayayana
I'd be surprised if it's true. And I would expect the US
to be different from Britain. In Britain, rural is not so
far away as it is in the US. Also, in the US most rural
people have guns and are prepared to take care of
Though one gather that plenty of people in cities have them too
(especially the criminals)!
Post by Mayayana
themselves. Both of those factors discourage rural
crime. But I have no figures and don't know where
one might find such figures. If they exist, I'd be
curious about a comparison of types of crime and
also percentage of people who knew the criminal.
I'd expect the type to vary. For instance, if a drunken
teenager walks down the street kicking off rearview
mirrors, the same teenager in the country might light
a brush fire. Mischief in both cases. But different
results.
The increase in rural crime here, according to reports on the box this
morning, seems to be mainly the theft of expensive agricultural
machinery, to be taken abroad. (Though as with most reports, I don't
think it's a sudden increase - just something the media have decided to
report on for no obvious reason. [Maybe some statistics have just been
released. But they don't usually give a reason for their choice of
subject.]) This being a somewhat smaller country, as someone said in one
of the reports, "they're on a ship by the time someone notices they're
missing."
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it jams - force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
VanguardLH
2018-08-06 02:22:14 UTC
Permalink
But what happens when another pointless sensor or chip goes, and you
can't turn on the heat?
It's been a long time since I saw cables running to flapper valves to
determine which air flow was allowed. The dash controls have, for a
long time, operated vacuum-controlled motors to determine the position
of the flappers. So, either you have a switch in the dash, even if it a
slide lever, controlling a motor or you have logic controlling the
motor. With either method, I've seen the motors fail a lot more often
than whatever switch or electronics was used to control the motor. One
reason why electronics replaced mechanical switches is that electronics
outlive mechanical switches. When the motor goes, doesn't matter if a
switch or electronic control is still working. Vacuum-operated motors
fail as do electrically-operated motors (I don't know of any data
measuring the failure rate of vacuum- versus electrically-operated
motors).

Trying to find a vacuum leak with the old mechanical setup is tougher
than checking voltages or current with the electrical stuff. It is the
vacuum motor, or the hose to it, or along the hose, or the supply for
the vacuum, and where is that, and so on?
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition or windows.
I must not be as tall a you, or I have wider cars than you. It is
difficult for me to reach over to the passenger side to roll down a
mechanically-operated window on that side, plus that motion mandates
that I am out of position to watch the road. Even worse is if you want
to roll down the rear windows, especially in some localities where a
camera catching you driving while turned backward stretching over the
front seats to reach something in the back awards you with a careless
driving ticket. Just because I get in a car with all the windows rolled
up doesn't mean I want it that way during the entire trip.

I like an electric trunk release. A couple wires run to the trunk where
is a motor versus a mechanical cable where the cable stretches with use
and can get rusted. Instead of either fully closed or fully open, I can
decide by just how much the rear/gate door opens. Not all garages or
locations allow full opening of my rear/hatch door, and I'd rather not
scratch the door on an obstruction. Yes, I could get out and use one
hand to control the opening of the door but eventually I need both hands
to remove or add items into the cargo area, and that means releasing the
door which then moves up to hit the obstruction. With an electric rear
door, I can set the opening height to something less to fully open and
have it stay that way while my hands are occupied with cargo items. I
can even set a memory so, for example, opening the rear door while the
car is inside my garage will prevent it from hitting the rolled up
garage door and its chain track.
Both are very expensive and superfluous. Power windows might be nice
when I get too old to reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with the car turned
off.
You can engage the electrical systems without having to start the car.
If the car owner grants you entry into their car, why wouldn't they give
you their key?
That can be maddening at the beach while you wait for the driver to
get in and start the car.
They would still have to get into the car to operate the mechanical
window crank. If you're inside someone else's car, and they have
granted you permission for entry into their car, why would they refuse
to give you the car key so you could put the ignition into the On (not
Start) position to use the electric windows?

Since you must open the car door whether it has mechanical or electrical
windows, why not just use the opened door to grant inside access? After
opening a door, to me it doesn't matter if the window is mechanical or
electrical since I won't be using the window as I already have access to
inside the car. Yeah, *if* the owner leaves their car unlocked and *if*
they won't give you the car key then you cannot use the electrical
window but I fail to see why you need to open a window when you or they
have already opened a door. I can't recall ever using the windows when
loading/unloading my car. Instead I open a door. Windows are for your
hands and arms to reach out/in, or sometimes to extend how long an item
you can stow inside the car, like when carrying back some long 2x4's
from the hardware store.

I've had to replace mechanical window lever mechanisms inside car doors,
and the same for motors. Can't say one is tougher to replace than the
other. However, replacing the shattered glass can be a bitch because
too often extricating the rail at the bottom that holds the glass window
can be tough due to rusting or bad access through those holes in the
inside metal panel of the door.

I can see mechanical windows have an advantage if the car's battery is
dead or removed; however, again, once I have a door opened (and my cars
still have a mechanical key lock in addition to the electric motor to
lock/unlock the doors) then it is unimportant if the window works or not
by any means.
Mayayana
2018-08-06 02:40:55 UTC
Permalink
"VanguardLH" <***@nguard.LH> wrote

|
| It's been a long time since I saw cables running to flapper valves to
| determine which air flow was allowed.

That's what my 2004 Tacoma had. It always worked just
fine. Though it didn't have AC. just heat.

| I must not be as tall a you, or I have wider cars than you. It is
| difficult for me to reach over to the passenger side to roll down a
| mechanically-operated window on that side, plus that motion mandates
| that I am out of position to watch the road. Even worse is if you want
| to roll down the rear windows....
| I like an electric trunk release.

I have a pickup. No rear windows. No trunk.
It is certainly easier to have electric windows.
I just don't think they're worth the expense.
And that's before you end up having to repair
them. Further, it's actually rare that I want to
open the passenger window.

| > Both are very expensive and superfluous. Power windows might be nice
| > when I get too old to reach across to put down the passenger-side
| > window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with the car turned
| > off.
|
| You can engage the electrical systems without having to start the car.
| If the car owner grants you entry into their car, why wouldn't they give
| you their key?
|
| > That can be maddening at the beach while you wait for the driver to
| > get in and start the car.
|
| They would still have to get into the car to operate the mechanical
| window crank. If you're inside someone else's car, and they have
| granted you permission for entry into their car, why would they refuse
| to give you the car key so you could put the ignition into the On (not
| Start) position to use the electric windows?

Yes, if I need to get into the car I could borrow the
key. I'm just talking about basic convenience. I'm out
on a hot day. I'm not driving. The driver remotely unlocks
the doors. But then I have to wait for them to get in
and start the car before I try to open the window. Not
a terribly big deal, but an inconvenience that I don't
see any need for.

I'm guessing you're one of those people who has
dual-zone seat heaters. And maybe 3-speed
hemmorhoid scratchers built into the genuine
leather seats? :)
VanguardLH
2018-08-06 05:38:39 UTC
Permalink
I'm guessing you're one of those people who has dual-zone seat
heaters. And maybe 3-speed hemmorhoid scratchers built into the
genuine leather seats? :)
Nope, no heated seats. Wasn't an option back in 2004 when I bought the
2-year old Subie (so it's a 2002). It does have lumbar adjust which I
max out - and I really need it; else, I'd have to use a lumbar pillow in
the driver seat.

Nope, no vibrator, either, or whatever you implied by the "scratchers".

My aunt got a new 2018 Outback. It has the heated seats. She and my
mother love it as they aren't sitting on a cold seat for very long. We
have some nasty cold winters here. When I ride in her car, I notice my
butt is getting uncomfy and realize the heater is still on, so I tap the
button to turn it off. Haven't been riding in her car during the winter
to know if a heated seat makes that much difference, well, to me, that
is. Before she had that car, she had a seat heating pad (back and
bottom) in her prior car. So, one way or the other, she was going to
have a heated seat. Maybe it depends on how old you are as to whether
this would be considered a wanted feature.

Would I want heated seats in my own car? I'm not sure. Been driving
for decades with a ice-cold butt during the winter until my butt warms
up the seat. Maybe when I get another 20 years older it would be
something that I'd like to have for them old bones of mine. Ever notice
when you sit on an ice-cold seat that the rearview mirror isn't adjusted
the same as after your butt warms the seat? That's because your butt
heated the cushion which flexed more and you're lower in the seat. Yep,
we get really cold winters here, so the seats are very stiff at first.

I did install a slip-on padded wheel cover. Sure makes a difference in
summer. Instead of having a super-heated steering wheel upon return to
my car which makes it very uncomfortable to drive until my hands absorb
enough heat to cool down the steering wheel, I'm not bothered with
having to handle a hot steering wheel. Even in winter it's nice not
having to grab an icicle to steer.

It also has front and rear outlets for the A/C. That helps when I'm in
front but mom is in the back. She likes it a lot colder than I, so I'm
not getting overcooled because she wants it colder. Yep, there is a
back seat versus your pickup which is apparently not an extended cab or
designed to as a passenger vehicle.

I like a tilt-able steering wheel. That's because I've yet to find any
car that has the steering column at exactly the right height and angle
for my best liking of positioning. Nothing fancy is needed. Just a
release lever that basically acts like a vise to lock the steering
column at a different angle. When I was obese, the steering wheel was
higher. After losing a lot of weight, the steering wheel is lower.

Would I like a 5-point seat harness in my car? Yep, but there's no
where to attach one unless I install a rollbar inside the passenger
compartment. Do I prefer a 3-point seat belt? Hell YES. The 2-point
lap belts were worthless in a crash. I had one car with automatic
belts: you got in, turned the key, and the belt top moved from the front
of the door to behind you. Still had to fasten the lap belt, though.
That actually got me accustomed to always having on a seat belt, so now
when I get in a car and start driving without the belt that I feel
"off", like something's missing, and realize to put on the belt. It's
not in my latest car and I miss the auto belt although putting it on for
me. Was damn easy to snap off if I didn't want the belt over the seat
when the car was turned on. Grandma would kid that my car was attacking
her as she always took longer to settle into her seat than for me
getting in and starting the car.

Is having tire pressure sensors better than you remembering to
occasionally go around to each tire with a pressure gauge to check?
Hmm, I don't need or want that feature but I can see how it is a safety
feature because way too many car owners NEVER check their tire
pressures. If they're lucky, pressures get checked maybe once a year,
like when they get an oil change. For cars that don't have the sensors
built-in with the monitoring electronics, you can get an app on your
smartphone that works with sensors you'll have to add to the wheels
(which obviously means the wheels have to get rebalanced). If you do
regular maintenance on your car and do the walkaround before getting in
then this would be an extravagance. Sorry, but that's not the behavior
of most car owners. It's a safety feature in *spite* of the laziness of
most car owners. That's also the point of the ECU with its error codes
to issue an alert when something really goes bad or has been bad for
awhile. How many car owners can recognize a ticking valve lifter? Car
makers have been adding more safety devices because of the stupidity and
laziness of car owners even back when cars had rotors inside of
distributors that was damn easy to replace.

Stabilizer or sway bars got added to keep down the off-side tire to
maintain some traction and prevent rollover. I'm sure at that time
there were old foggies saying they weren't necessary and just something
to up the price of the car. Or shocks with variable needle widths so
ride was smooth but got stiffer with better control when the ride got
harsh.

As far as all the "goodies" are concerned, a lot depends on what you
want to pay for rather than does it really improve anything. I've seen
folks complaining that someone spends a ton more money on a luxury car
than their cheapo commuter car. Depends on how much you can afford. If
someone rich spends the same percentage of their income as you do on
your car then they have paid out the same percentage as you. They can
afford more so they can buy more. You don't want to invest a lot of
money in goodies in your car. Other drivers may spend more time in
their cars, see them as personal carriers rather than as utility trucks,
and can afford the goodies. When I used to have a ton of disposable
income, geez, did I spend a lot more. Whose to berate me for spending
more when I have more? Well, probably those that don't have a much
because they're envious.

I could get a fully decked out car, and I did this last time (in cash
which threw the dealer for a bit when I refused to sign some papers that
had to do with credit checks since I wasn't getting a loan). Or I could
get a cheapy econo boxy that barely meets my commuter needs. Nah, no
thanks, but someone with less money doesn't have a choice. Does more
stuff in the car means more can go bad and maintenance and repair costs
go up? Hell yeah but again that depends on what you want and what you
can afford. In fact, in the not so far away future, I probably will get
a cheap commuter car (that I consider safe enough) just so I don't have
to risk my decked-out baby to other drivers or even to the salt during
winter. I have a pricey full-featured Outback (still don't like the
Forester) but I mostly drive my oldie 2002 Subie wagon. Some folks buy
lots of shoes. Some buy lots of hunting rifles, like my dad who had
half a dozen engraved Weatherbys. You probably have something that
interests you most where you spend more than do others. We all lust
after different things.
Paul
2018-08-06 06:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
My aunt got a new 2018 Outback. It has the heated seats. She and my
mother love it as they aren't sitting on a cold seat for very long. We
have some nasty cold winters here. When I ride in her car, I notice my
butt is getting uncomfy and realize the heater is still on, so I tap the
button to turn it off. Haven't been riding in her car during the winter
to know if a heated seat makes that much difference, well, to me, that
is. Before she had that car, she had a seat heating pad (back and
bottom) in her prior car. So, one way or the other, she was going to
have a heated seat. Maybe it depends on how old you are as to whether
this would be considered a wanted feature.
I'm surprised cars have enough power for stuff like that.

I thought if you jam the field winding on an alternator
(a test procedure mechanics use), you get about 12V @ 70A
from it. About 840W. And out of that, you have to run
the fuel pump, ignition computer, headlights, plus any of those
heating loads. It's a wonder there's enough power
to do it.

Paul
VanguardLH
2018-08-06 10:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by VanguardLH
My aunt got a new 2018 Outback. It has the heated seats. She and my
mother love it as they aren't sitting on a cold seat for very long. We
have some nasty cold winters here. When I ride in her car, I notice my
butt is getting uncomfy and realize the heater is still on, so I tap the
button to turn it off. Haven't been riding in her car during the winter
to know if a heated seat makes that much difference, well, to me, that
is. Before she had that car, she had a seat heating pad (back and
bottom) in her prior car. So, one way or the other, she was going to
have a heated seat. Maybe it depends on how old you are as to whether
this would be considered a wanted feature.
I'm surprised cars have enough power for stuff like that.
I thought if you jam the field winding on an alternator
from it. About 840W. And out of that, you have to run
the fuel pump, ignition computer, headlights, plus any of those
heating loads. It's a wonder there's enough power
to do it.
I forget why I mentioned it at the car shop but said something like
"Yeah, and the starter sucks down 60 amps." The shop guy said, "Oh,
some suck up a lot more than that, even up to 200 amps." Seems 400A is
typical for starting a car and 1000A for bigger cars, and why you have
to not just check the cranking amps for your battery but also its CCA
(cold cranking amps) if you're in an area that has wintery cold
temperatures.

As for how much the car draws when running and whether the alternator
keeps the battery [re]charged depends on the output of the alternator.
From what I see at some online auto parts stores, a typical alternator
can put out 110A to 145A. Obviously the alternator must put out more
than the car and all its accessories will consume so there is some left
to recharge the battery after you sucked it down after a start. The one
listed for my oldie 2002 Subaru Legacy wagon puts out 90A. The one
listed for my new 2018 Outback puts out less at 80A. The amp rating is
for when the alternator is spinning at some high RPM, like 6000. When
idling, the alternator spins a lot slower so it puts out less. I'm
pretty sure the parts stores only listed the high RPM rating.

https://www.lifewire.com/understanding-alternator-output-ratings-534785

I know some guys that installed monster audio systems in their cars with
huge subwoofers and high-volume speakers with matching stereo amps who
had to put in bigger alternators. Otherwise, their battery went dead
and they couldn't start their car.

Since the heated seats, power windows, radio, power seats, digital
console, Eyesight, tire pressure sensors, electric trunk release, and so
on are all factory equipment, so the maker ensures the alternator can
handle the load. It's in my old car without all the gadgets where I add
some that I could end up overtaking the capacity of the alternator to
keep the battery charged or recharging it after a start. However, the
fuse in the cigarette lighter port to which I'm connecting all these
extras will guarantee I won't be surpassing the alternator's capacity.
I think the cigarette light has a 10A fuse. On some cars, it can carry
more load (15A for Chevy, 20A for Ford). The fuse (and wiring gauge)
determine the upper limit of all the accessories I'd add to my old car.
Luckily it's a fuse that's easily replaced rather than a fusible link
somewhere inline with the wiring.

What good would be the power ports with whatever fused rating they have
if they were unusable due to using the factory equipment? Some cars
even have options for even power ports. The heated seat pads that I've
seen suck down 8A. Some power ports remain powered when the engine is
off. I haven't test what happens to them in my new car. In the old
one, the cigarette lighter port goes off with the car. Heated seats are
stock gear in the new car, so it's up to the maker to design them to be
usable. Add-on heated seat pads in my old car will have to use the
cigarette lighter port, but 8A is less than 10A and the pads will turn
off when the car turns off. However, I haven't yet gotten old enough
where I need my butt warmed when I get into an icy car during winter.
After blowing the fuse a couple times, I'd know when I was overloading
the cigarette lighter port. In the new car, it better handle all the
loads from the factory gear.
Paul
2018-08-06 13:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Paul
Post by VanguardLH
My aunt got a new 2018 Outback. It has the heated seats. She and my
mother love it as they aren't sitting on a cold seat for very long. We
have some nasty cold winters here. When I ride in her car, I notice my
butt is getting uncomfy and realize the heater is still on, so I tap the
button to turn it off. Haven't been riding in her car during the winter
to know if a heated seat makes that much difference, well, to me, that
is. Before she had that car, she had a seat heating pad (back and
bottom) in her prior car. So, one way or the other, she was going to
have a heated seat. Maybe it depends on how old you are as to whether
this would be considered a wanted feature.
I'm surprised cars have enough power for stuff like that.
I thought if you jam the field winding on an alternator
from it. About 840W. And out of that, you have to run
the fuel pump, ignition computer, headlights, plus any of those
heating loads. It's a wonder there's enough power
to do it.
I forget why I mentioned it at the car shop but said something like
"Yeah, and the starter sucks down 60 amps." The shop guy said, "Oh,
some suck up a lot more than that, even up to 200 amps." Seems 400A is
typical for starting a car and 1000A for bigger cars, and why you have
to not just check the cranking amps for your battery but also its CCA
(cold cranking amps) if you're in an area that has wintery cold
temperatures.
As for how much the car draws when running and whether the alternator
keeps the battery [re]charged depends on the output of the alternator.
From what I see at some online auto parts stores, a typical alternator
can put out 110A to 145A. Obviously the alternator must put out more
than the car and all its accessories will consume so there is some left
to recharge the battery after you sucked it down after a start. The one
listed for my oldie 2002 Subaru Legacy wagon puts out 90A. The one
listed for my new 2018 Outback puts out less at 80A. The amp rating is
for when the alternator is spinning at some high RPM, like 6000. When
idling, the alternator spins a lot slower so it puts out less. I'm
pretty sure the parts stores only listed the high RPM rating.
https://www.lifewire.com/understanding-alternator-output-ratings-534785
I know some guys that installed monster audio systems in their cars with
huge subwoofers and high-volume speakers with matching stereo amps who
had to put in bigger alternators. Otherwise, their battery went dead
and they couldn't start their car.
Since the heated seats, power windows, radio, power seats, digital
console, Eyesight, tire pressure sensors, electric trunk release, and so
on are all factory equipment, so the maker ensures the alternator can
handle the load. It's in my old car without all the gadgets where I add
some that I could end up overtaking the capacity of the alternator to
keep the battery charged or recharging it after a start. However, the
fuse in the cigarette lighter port to which I'm connecting all these
extras will guarantee I won't be surpassing the alternator's capacity.
I think the cigarette light has a 10A fuse. On some cars, it can carry
more load (15A for Chevy, 20A for Ford). The fuse (and wiring gauge)
determine the upper limit of all the accessories I'd add to my old car.
Luckily it's a fuse that's easily replaced rather than a fusible link
somewhere inline with the wiring.
What good would be the power ports with whatever fused rating they have
if they were unusable due to using the factory equipment? Some cars
even have options for even power ports. The heated seat pads that I've
seen suck down 8A. Some power ports remain powered when the engine is
off. I haven't test what happens to them in my new car. In the old
one, the cigarette lighter port goes off with the car. Heated seats are
stock gear in the new car, so it's up to the maker to design them to be
usable. Add-on heated seat pads in my old car will have to use the
cigarette lighter port, but 8A is less than 10A and the pads will turn
off when the car turns off. However, I haven't yet gotten old enough
where I need my butt warmed when I get into an icy car during winter.
After blowing the fuse a couple times, I'd know when I was overloading
the cigarette lighter port. In the new car, it better handle all the
loads from the factory gear.
The long term average matters.

The car battery is like the bank. It offers a "bill payer loan"
when you start the car. As long as the long term average of charging
beats consumption, the battery "stays up".

I've measured the starting conditions on my previous car with
two meters. The clamp-on ammeter measures peak DC. The regular
(voltage) multimeter measures "peak" or "trough". If the meter measures
12V initially, you can measure the downward-going value as your
measurement option. The meter will detect and record the
lowest value for you, so you can set the meter up, then climb
into the car and attempt to start it.

With those in place, and the meters taking one reading per second,
the car starter motor ended up getting 9V @ 150A, for a 2 liter
engine. The battery terminals go from 12.8V or so, down to 9V,
due to internal impedance. At the sampling rate of the kit,
I could easily miss the absolutely highest value, but
the measurement sounds realistic. This was measured at somewhere
between -15C and -20C.

The load in that case doesn't last forever. The car charges
the battery at a lower current flow level over a longer time,
to pay back the short term high current event. The charging
current is initially high (as the car brings the battery
terminals back from 9V to 13V+). And soon it would be
charging at a relatively low level for the rest of the
trip, to "pay back the bank".

*******

The fuses in a car, are intended to protect the gauge
of wire used.

The wiring is selected for the intended current flow level.
While we use the lighter socket for appliances, it still
has to properly run a lighter coil (that little nichrome
toaster element).

The fuse on my little car, was 25A or so, which is on the
low side. Other cars have the lighter fused at a higher value.
I managed to blow the fuse, plugging in a DC powered tire
pump (that I received as a gift). I don't generally
attempt such tests, unless I have spare fuses handy.
I no longer consider the lighter socket as a power
source, due to wasting fuses on testing previously.

Some cars have two lighter sockets. The electrical design
would assume both are being used at the same time, so the
fusing scheme would have to be gauged accordingly. Would
they use two fuses ? Who knows.

*******

I know how little capacity the battery has, just with
my recent alternator problem, and the drive to the shop.
I placed a new battery in the car (the previous day).
I used a smart charger, to make sure it was filled to
the top. (I didn't use my dumb charger, as I didn't
want to compromise a new battery on the very first day.)
I verified the battery was charged with a multimeter.
I started the drive to the shop, and the battery
charging light started flashing after only about
a third of my trip. Which means the ampacity of the
battery was used up, the terminal voltage
falling below the acceptable level, in only a
fraction of the trip across town. And that's with
DTR (daytime running) lights, and no attempt to pull
DTR relay. The regular headlights weren't on.

At the shop, they told me the alternator wasn't
dead, but also wasn't putting out enough voltage
to keep the battery charged. But it did provide
enough current (if the RPMs were high enough),
that I was able to finish the trip without incident.

So the "loan department" at the bank, doesn't seem
to have a lot of money to loan. Even though the battery
has that stupid ampere-hours rating (theory says
the battery should have run the car all the
way to the shop on its own), it's not necessarily
going to manifest itself under real conditions. In my
case at least, if I was exceeding the long term
average for a moderate length trip, the battery
could stay down in the danger zone.

They could put any size alternator they wanted in
the thing, except if it was made large enough,
it would stall the car. The engine has to be
strong enough, to handle the accessory load
from that thing (at low RPM). The price you'd
pay, is having to set the idle higher to handle
the mechanical load without stalling.

As for the control, the voltage regulator maintains
a constant charging voltage, by means of a bang-bang
controller. The field winding is modulated and uses
PWM, to define enough output to keep the battery
charging. When I refer to "jamming" the field,
that presents a "constant logic 1" in a sense,
keeping the field winding at its highest current
flow value continuously. When you jam the field winding
and run the engine at sufficient RPMs (i.e. higher than
idle), the battery goes up to around 18 volts, and
a lot of current flows into the battery as a result.
This will cause a spectacular battery failure if
done long enough (the shop had seen a few messes
from this kind of failure condition - my car has
an early version of a protection scheme for that).

All the DC devices in the car, need to have sufficient
voltage ratings for continuous operation at the elevated
voltage, as well as a rating to handle "load dump"
transients. While the car battery filters a lot of stuff,
things like your car stereo have to absorb insults without
dying. And so they also have a load dump spec. This is why
you shouldn't connect non-automotive rated electrical items
to the car, without considering how dirty the battery rail is.
It's hardly a 12.800V source.

These are the specs of the audio amp chip (automotive) I
use here. A TDA2003.

8V to 18V Nominal operation.
28V max Continuous operation "from two 12V batteries in series".
Apparently some yokels connect two batteries in series
or use a nominal 24V battery, to start a 12V car ???
The amp chip can withstand that.
40V max Pulse train (load dump) rating. Needs external LC filter.
The spec sheet says the suggested circuit can withstand
up to 120V if the pulses from load dump are short enough.
Mine doesn't have the recommended circuit because
the DC source is a clean one (the amp runs my
computer speakers).

It's more than an amp - it's designed like a tank.

I suspect any situation offering more than 18V, causes
the output stage to disconnect, to protect the speakers.
The rest of the specs are intended to cover "preventing
damage" to the amp chip. It also has thermal shutdown.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-08-06 14:05:25 UTC
Permalink
"VanguardLH" <***@nguard.LH> wrote

| As far as all the "goodies" are concerned, a lot depends on what you
| want to pay for rather than does it really improve anything. I've seen
| folks complaining that someone spends a ton more money on a luxury car
| than their cheapo commuter car. Depends on how much you can afford.

That's some pretty fancy justification footwork.
I don't think it usually has much to do with what one
can afford. I remember back in the 60s the cliche of
dirt-poor existence was to live in a shack, with a big
TV and a Cadillac in the driveway. People buy luxury
because they think of consumer products as talismans
that hold happiness and success. They want to be
winners. Look at ads on TV. Luxury will make you a
winner. If you want luxury that shows you're a winner.
Why do you suppose people pay $4K to sit on a boat
for a week, being treated like royalty while they risk
a norovirus infection? It's a fantasy purchase. Those
people usually can't really afford it. They save up all
year at jobs they dislike so that they can act like
royalty on a cruise ship for a week.

People buy convenience for a similar reason. They
imagine a successful life to be one of relaxation
and entertainment. We want to be comfortable. Beyond
that we want to be titillated and we want to be winners.

That's not to say that extra features are necessarily
bad. But people don't buy luxury because they reasonably
calculate that headlight wipers will be worth an extra
$500. They just simply hope to be winners. They buy
luxury in an attempt to treat chronic anxiety and self-
loathing.

Woops... gotta go.... My automatic bread butterer is
almost done and I have to put a new piece of toast in....
I wish I could also have an auto-bread-jam-spreader
but right now that's only a dream, for when I win the
lottery. :)

|
| We all lust
| after different things.

Yes. But maybe a more interesting question would be
what is desire and what do we do with it. Do you assume
it should be fulfilled as much as possible? That's what an
animal does.
VanguardLH
2018-08-07 01:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| As far as all the "goodies" are concerned, a lot depends on what you
| want to pay for rather than does it really improve anything. I've seen
| folks complaining that someone spends a ton more money on a luxury car
| than their cheapo commuter car. Depends on how much you can afford.
That's some pretty fancy justification footwork.
I don't think it usually has much to do with what one
can afford. I remember back in the 60s the cliche of
dirt-poor existence was to live in a shack, with a big
TV and a Cadillac in the driveway. People buy luxury
because they think of consumer products as talismans
that hold happiness and success. They want to be
winners. Look at ads on TV. Luxury will make you a
winner. If you want luxury that shows you're a winner.
Why do you suppose people pay $4K to sit on a boat
for a week, being treated like royalty while they risk
a norovirus infection? It's a fantasy purchase. Those
people usually can't really afford it. They save up all
year at jobs they dislike so that they can act like
royalty on a cruise ship for a week.
People buy convenience for a similar reason. They
imagine a successful life to be one of relaxation
and entertainment. We want to be comfortable. Beyond
that we want to be titillated and we want to be winners.
That's not to say that extra features are necessarily
bad. But people don't buy luxury because they reasonably
calculate that headlight wipers will be worth an extra
$500. They just simply hope to be winners. They buy
luxury in an attempt to treat chronic anxiety and self-
loathing.
Woops... gotta go.... My automatic bread butterer is
almost done and I have to put a new piece of toast in....
I wish I could also have an auto-bread-jam-spreader
but right now that's only a dream, for when I win the
lottery. :)
|
| We all lust
| after different things.
Yes. But maybe a more interesting question would be
what is desire and what do we do with it. Do you assume
it should be fulfilled as much as possible? That's what an
animal does.
I can do without after I'm dead.
Mark Lloyd
2018-08-06 17:55:08 UTC
Permalink
On 08/05/2018 09:40 PM, Mayayana wrote:

[snip]
Post by Mayayana
I have a pickup. No rear windows.
Mine does have a rear window. It was useful when the A/C quit.

As to the side windows, I didn't like being hit in the ear that much
(wind at 70MPH). Opening the rear window ventilated the vehicle fine.
Post by Mayayana
No trunk.
It is certainly easier to have electric windows.
I just don't think they're worth the expense.
And that's before you end up having to repair
them. Further, it's actually rare that I want to
open the passenger window.
I have no need for electric windows, except for the very rare occurrence
of wanting to open the passenger-side window while driving.

[snip]
Post by Mayayana
Yes, if I need to get into the car I could borrow the
key. I'm just talking about basic convenience. I'm out
on a hot day. I'm not driving. The driver remotely unlocks
the doors. But then I have to wait for them to get in
and start the car before I try to open the window. Not
a terribly big deal, but an inconvenience that I don't
see any need for.
The last time I was in a car with power windows, you don't have to start
the car (of even turn the key to 'accessory') to operate the windows.
Post by Mayayana
I'm guessing you're one of those people who has
dual-zone seat heaters. And maybe 3-speed
hemmorhoid scratchers built into the genuine
leather seats? :)
BTW, I have wanted heated seats, but I just used a heating pad. That's a
lot easier to deal with if it fails. Also I don't need it very often
(IIRC, it's been over 9 years since I used it).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to
enlighten oneself and others." [Voltaire]
Mayayana
2018-08-06 18:11:12 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Lloyd" <***@mail.invalid> wrote

| As to the side windows, I didn't like being hit in the ear that much
| (wind at 70MPH).
|

I used to find that with my earlier trucks. My new
truck has a semi-xtra-cab with semi-usable seats
in back. (I took one out for storage and kept on
for the rare times there are two passengers.) I
find the extra space in back makes all the difference.
The air flows back there instead of pounding on my
left ear.

| The last time I was in a car with power windows, you don't have to start
| the car (of even turn the key to 'accessory') to operate the windows.
|
I've never seen that. I don't think it's common. Though
I don't know why. Maybe to protect the battery?

| BTW, I have wanted heated seats, but I just used a heating pad. That's a
| lot easier to deal with if it fails. Also I don't need it very often
| (IIRC, it's been over 9 years since I used it).
|

I could see putting down a non-conductive pad.
I don't see the need for heat. My latest truck has cloth
seats rather than vinyl and I find that good enough
in cold weather. After all, it's only cold for the first
5 minutes. But I do have trouble with the steering wheel
as I get older. I like to wear gloves when it's really cold.
Wolf K
2018-08-06 18:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]
 I have a pickup. No rear windows.
Mine does have a rear window. It was useful when the A/C quit.
As to the side windows, I didn't like being hit in the ear that much
(wind at 70MPH). Opening the rear window ventilated the vehicle fine.
[...]

Open windows at highway speed creates drag that will cost you far more
in fuel than the A/C does.

Reminder: Drag increases as the 4th power of the speed. 2 times the
speed ==> 16 times the drag.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Mayayana
2018-08-06 18:38:08 UTC
Permalink
"Wolf K" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote

| Open windows at highway speed creates drag that will cost you far more
| in fuel than the A/C does.
|
I typically do both. If it's hot enough for AC
I'll use it, but only to take the edge off of the
heat. So I leave the window open and have a
cool breeze blowing on me. Is that costing me
a few cents? I'm not worried.
Wolf K
2018-08-06 18:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| Open windows at highway speed creates drag that will cost you far more
| in fuel than the A/C does.
|
I typically do both. If it's hot enough for AC
I'll use it, but only to take the edge off of the
heat. So I leave the window open and have a
cool breeze blowing on me. Is that costing me
a few cents? I'm not worried.
More than a few cents. 2-4 mpg, actually.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Mayayana
2018-08-06 21:00:08 UTC
Permalink
"Wolf K" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote

| > I typically do both. If it's hot enough for AC
| > I'll use it, but only to take the edge off of the
| > heat. So I leave the window open and have a
| > cool breeze blowing on me. Is that costing me
| > a few cents? I'm not worried.
| >
| >
|
| More than a few cents. 2-4 mpg, actually.

I don't believe that. I'm supposedly getting
19/23 mpg. That means I would have to
be losing 10-20% of my gas simply by opening
the window. That's absurd. They used to also
claim that 55 MPH saved gas. I don't believe
that either.

And if I were really worried I'd be doing a lot
of other things, like making an air deflector
for my front grille, like trucks often have on top
of the cab. I've got several square feet of flat
radiator facing the oncoming wind.
pjp
2018-08-06 22:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| > I typically do both. If it's hot enough for AC
| > I'll use it, but only to take the edge off of the
| > heat. So I leave the window open and have a
| > cool breeze blowing on me. Is that costing me
| > a few cents? I'm not worried.
| >
| >
|
| More than a few cents. 2-4 mpg, actually.
I don't believe that. I'm supposedly getting
19/23 mpg. That means I would have to
be losing 10-20% of my gas simply by opening
the window. That's absurd. They used to also
claim that 55 MPH saved gas. I don't believe
that either.
And if I were really worried I'd be doing a lot
of other things, like making an air deflector
for my front grille, like trucks often have on top
of the cab. I've got several square feet of flat
radiator facing the oncoming wind.
Sunroof, cools car, plenty of wind but not dir4ectly on you, little
noise. I love them :)
Wolf K
2018-08-06 23:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
| > I typically do both. If it's hot enough for AC
| > I'll use it, but only to take the edge off of the
| > heat. So I leave the window open and have a
| > cool breeze blowing on me. Is that costing me
| > a few cents? I'm not worried.
| >
| >
|
| More than a few cents. 2-4 mpg, actually.
I don't believe that. I'm supposedly getting
19/23 mpg.
Oops, forgot, you have smaller gallons than we do. OK 1-3MPG, depending
on your car.
Post by Mayayana
That means I would have to
be losing 10-20% of my gas simply by opening
the window. That's absurd. They used to also
claim that 55 MPH saved gas. I don't believe
that either.
And if I were really worried I'd be doing a lot
of other things, like making an air deflector
for my front grille, like trucks often have on top
of the cab. I've got several square feet of flat
radiator facing the oncoming wind.
Two things affect gas mileage most:
a) driving style;
b) drag.

Data point: My current car monitors and calculates fuel consumption. As
accurate as tracking manually per tank of gas. After about 1 hour's
driving, the average settles down, unless some factor increases or
decreases it. Such as wind. On a trip West three years ago, on one day
driving across Manitoba and Saskatchewan, fuel consumption ranged from
7.4l/100km (31.8 m/US gallon) to 10.4 l/100km (22.6 m/US gallon. Reason:
ran with a tailwind, then with a headwind, of about 50 to 60km/h (per
weather report), cruising at 110 km/h. The range was a surprise: I
didn't think aerodynamic drag could have such an effect.

I searched on "aerodynamic drag and fuel consumption for cars" and found
some interesting links. I also found that my claim that drag increases
as the fourth power is incorrect, that's for drag in water. At highway
speed about 50% of the power output fuel is used to overcome aerodynamic
drag.

Two hits are:
https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-aerodynamics-affect-fuel-efficiency
http://www.arcindy.com/effect-of-aerodynamic-drag-on-fuel-economy.html

Have a good day,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Do you know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proven to
work? Medicine. (T. Minchin)
Mark Lloyd
2018-08-06 17:36:42 UTC
Permalink
On 08/05/2018 01:18 PM, Mayayana wrote:

[snip]
Post by Mayayana
Sounds great. But what happens when another pointless
sensor or chip goes, and you can't turn on the heat?
In a traditional car it's really just turning on a fan. Climate
control is Rube Goldberg-style idiocy -- a vastly more
complex contraption, and for what? So that you don't
have to decide whether you're hot or cold.
I drive an older vehicle that doesn't have these automatic climate
controls. I don't find it to be a problem to make the adjustments.
Post by Mayayana
I was most pleased to not have to get electronic ignition
or windows. Both are very expensive and superfluous.
Power windows might be nice when I get too old to
reach across to put down the passenger-side
window. On the other hand, they don't work at all with
the car turned off. That can be maddening at the beach
while you wait for the driver to get in and start the car.
I had a friend who almost lost a dog because of power windows. The dog
was sticking his head out the window, like dogs often do and must have
hit the UP button with a paw. She heard the choking and had to pull over
quickly.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to
enlighten oneself and others." [Voltaire]
Char Jackson
2018-08-06 18:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]
Post by Mayayana
Sounds great. But what happens when another pointless
sensor or chip goes, and you can't turn on the heat?
In a traditional car it's really just turning on a fan. Climate
control is Rube Goldberg-style idiocy -- a vastly more
complex contraption, and for what? So that you don't
have to decide whether you're hot or cold.
I drive an older vehicle that doesn't have these automatic climate
controls. I don't find it to be a problem to make the adjustments.
Back in the day, I spent a summer in a mobile home that had no automatic
climate control and I survived just fine. These days my house has an
automatic thermostat that turns on the AC or the heat, as needed, so I
don't have to. Likewise, my vehicles have dual zone climate controls so
that the driver and the passenger can tailor things as they like. They
also happen to have heated and cooled seats. None of it is required, but
it sure is nice.
Post by Mark Lloyd
I had a friend who almost lost a dog because of power windows. The dog
was sticking his head out the window, like dogs often do and must have
hit the UP button with a paw. She heard the choking and had to pull over
quickly.
Not just dogs; kids have died after getting their head caught in the
power window. That's why power window switches are no longer designed in
such a way as to allow that to happen.
--
Char Jackson
Mayayana
2018-08-06 18:33:04 UTC
Permalink
"Char Jackson" <***@none.invalid> wrote

| Back in the day, I spent a summer in a mobile home that had no automatic
| climate control and I survived just fine. These days my house has an
| automatic thermostat that turns on the AC or the heat, as needed, so I
| don't have to.
|
That's how you know you've gone from middle
aged to elderly. For the old it's a lifesaver. But
there are costs. When I have my windows open
on a 70F day I find it sad to hear the neighbors'
AC starting up. There's wonderful fresh air outside,
probably cooler than the air in their house. I can
smell the phlox and the roses. Or maybe the
honeysuckle. Or the lilacs. I can hear the birds.
But people quickly get used to climate control
and then never open the windows, living cut off
from the outdoors. My neighbors on one side are
college students. But their windows are never open!

Today it's about 95F here. I'm staying indoors
with a small fan blowing on me. I've left the windows
open but turned off the exhaust fans until evening.
I wouldn't want to miss the few weeks of humid,
warm weather that we get. It's sexy and gentle to
the body. No tensing up to shiver. Later I'll have
some watermelon and take another shower.
Summertime.

When I was a child we used to have an old lady
who rented from us. I'd visit her room on a hot day.
She had Lavender Refresher from S. S. Pierce. I
think it was basically alcohol with a bit of lavender
oil, in a spray bottle. We'd take turns spraying our
necks, then fanning them with a hand fan. She had
a beautiful collection of hand fans, some made of
ivory. It was a very richly sensory experience that's
still clear in my mind. Similarly, having a hot drink
after hours outside freezing is a unique, rich experience.
Climate control removes all of that richness.

Also, if you get used to climate control it's very
hard to adapt to the sensations of changeable
temperatures, especially as you get older. So you
end up having to stay in climate control all the
time.
VanguardLH
2018-08-07 01:49:56 UTC
Permalink
My neighbors on one side are college students. But their windows are
never open!
That might be a good thing for you. Reduces the noise you hear when
they play their stereo. The young think more noise means more fun.
Also, if you get used to climate control it's very hard to adapt to
the sensations of changeable temperatures, especially as you get
older. So you end up having to stay in climate control all the time.
Acclimation would require the occupants to remain within the premises
for many days, if not weeks, to become that innured to a tiny
temperature and humidity change. Well, if the occupants aren't leaving
their home much, what does it matter if they become acclimatized to
their nearly-constant living conditions? How many folks around you are
members of the Polar Bear Club?


Most participants are men. Geez, my own sex embarrasses me a lot. Dumb
nuts. Oh wait, after they dive in, they don't have any nuts to see.
pyotr filipivich
2018-08-07 02:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mayayana
|
That's how you know you've gone from middle
aged to elderly. For the old it's a lifesaver. But
there are costs. When I have my windows open
on a 70F day I find it sad to hear the neighbors'
AC starting up. There's wonderful fresh air outside,
probably cooler than the air in their house. I can
smell the phlox and the roses. Or maybe the
honeysuckle. Or the lilacs. I can hear the birds.
But people quickly get used to climate control
and then never open the windows, living cut off
from the outdoors. My neighbors on one side are
college students. But their windows are never open!
We got the ductless heat pump. Meh - over hyped. But it does
keep the front room and bedroom "cool" (below 75). I'm the one who
monitors the outside temp, and when it goes below 75, just open the
window and cut in the fan.

The back office has the old fashioned window AC, I leave it at 75,
and when the temps drop, switch from "recycle" to outside air. Let
the fan run all night, it cools enough.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
VanguardLH
2018-08-07 01:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Mark Lloyd
I had a friend who almost lost a dog because of power windows. The dog
was sticking his head out the window, like dogs often do and must have
hit the UP button with a paw. She heard the choking and had to pull over
quickly.
She had to pull over? That meant she was driving. So why couldn't she
use the driver-side window controls? Of course, driving with the
windows open presents its own risk to the dog. Oh oh, where'd the dog
go?
Post by Char Jackson
Not just dogs; kids have died after getting their head caught in the
power window. That's why power window switches are no longer designed in
such a way as to allow that to happen.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/12/which-power-window-switches-are-safer/index.htm

I'm surprise auto-reverse motors (they change direction when the load
gets too high, like trying to close on a kid's neck) are yet mandated in
the US. Even my electric garage door opener will reverse if the door
hits a restriction on closing. It has the optical sensors to see if
there is something low in the doorway but I can reach out and block the
door from closing which makes it go back up.

"autoreverse is required in the United States only in vehicles with
auto/one-touch-up windows and remotely controlled windows."

Now I know why my old '02 car has auto down AND UP: push the button past
a depression and the window will continue rolling down or up without
having to keep pressing the button. Handy when I drive up to a drive
through to get the window down with a single press but not have to
maintain pressure on the window switch. Handy, too, to roll it back up
but keep both hands on the steering wheel (since I'm likely having to
turn when leaving the drive through). The new car only has auto down:
it will continue rolling down when pressed and released, but no
continuos rolling up (my finger comes off the switch and the window
stops). And, yep, the new car has lever switches instead of rockers.
Art Todesco
2018-08-04 12:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by pjp
Well wife just came home with a phone has Bluetooth and seeing as I have
a Bluetooth adapter for a PC I figured I'd check it out.
Some issues getting devices "paired" but believe that now happens
reliably.
Problem is I don't see what the fuss is all about. It does appear I may
be able to connect the pc to the internet thru the phone but nothing
else. I figured I'd be able to browse the SD card etc. in the phone but
that doesn't seem available.
It's some sort of Samsung phone btw.
Am I missing something?
I think the big thing for bluetooth is using a hands free device like an
earbud. I can't say it always works well, but I think my problem is not
in bluetooth itself, but the connection quality I have in a mountainous
area. I also use bluetooth to connect my cell phone (Samsung) to my
home cordless phone (Panasonic) to allow me to receive and make calls on
the cell phone from the cordless phone. In addition I have used APK
Extractor on the cell to transfer program files (APKs) from one cell
phone to another. To move files like pictures to my PC I always use
Airdroid.
Loading...