Dell, hell

[Wolffan]

There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.

https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/

I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

[T]

Post by Wolffan
There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Dell went to hell after Michael sold it.

Dell's Tech Support has always sucked. I especially
loved their practice of taking bad proprietary
returned hardware, putting it through the parts
cleaner, then putting it back in warranty
replacement hardware. They never replaced with new.
And you got back everyone else's problems. You
were basically screwed.

[TheGremlin]

On 6/25/21 7:41 PM, Wolffan wrote:> > There?s a severe bug in Dell?s Support Assist app, a Dell ?security?> program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30> million machines may be vulnerable.> > https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/> > I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.> Dell went to hell after Michael sold it.Dell's Tech Support has always sucked. I especiallyloved their practice of taking bad proprietaryreturned hardware, putting it through the partscleaner, then putting it back in warrantyreplacement hardware. They never replaced with new.And you got back everyone else's problems. Youwere basically screwed.

Dell wasn't ever really one of the better PC makers. It has always
been overpriced with relatively low end hardware.

[Shadow]

There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Anything that updates system files/drivers automatically
through "the cloud" is subject to this kind of thing. It's a
deliberate backdoor that can be targeted by the "bad guys". Both
normal criminals and government agencies(the last would have
"legitimate" certificates).
Much better is to allow the user to download, quarantine for a
few days then check the SHAs of the downloads with multiple AVs before
installing.
[]'s

[slate_leeper]

There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

I dumped "Support Assist" a couple of years ago.

Slightly off-topic: I recently checked for driver updates on the Dell
website. It told me I needed an emergency "safety" update for the CPU
chip driver. I followed the link provided, and downloaded the
"updated" driver. I then saw that it had the same version number in
the file name as the "older" driver I already have.

So I sent them a message, asking if the link was indeed to a NEW
driver as the email said. Their reply: "Drivers can be downloaded from
the Dell website...."

Yeah, that was helpful.

-dan z-

[Mark Lloyd]

On 6/26/21 7:14 AM, slate_leeper wrote:

[snip]

Post by slate_leeper
So I sent them a message, asking if the link was indeed to a NEW
driver as the email said. Their reply: "Drivers can be downloaded from
the Dell website...."
Yeah, that was helpful.
-dan z-

I've often gotten answers from "customer service" don't say anything
about the question I asked. A lot of these are read by bots. This
wouldn't be too bad if they could read.

[ray]

Post by Wolffan
There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Simple enough solution - don't get another Dell.

[Wolffan]

Post by ray

Post by Wolffan
There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Simple enough solution - don't get another Dell.

I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.

Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.

I hate Dell.

[pothead]

Post by Wolffan

Post by ray

Post by Wolffan
There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Simple enough solution - don't get another Dell.

I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

Me too.
Biggest problem with Dell is the BIOS. They hide many of the options so
the user can't see or change them and AFAIK there is no way around it
other than to side load a custom BIOS.
Then there is all the bloatware and trial software that is installed.
The tech support is useless. You are better off doing an Internet
search on your own.
While the price point is usually pretty good, the quality of the
components can be marginal.

IMHO there are much better choices to be made.

[TheGremlin]

The BIOS was awful with the majority. I've personally seen little
improvement with them over the years. An honest tech will tell
you they appreciate people buying Dells because its a future
repair in the making.

[TheGremlin]

At a job I worked last century with Gremlin the biggest name brand
computers with hd issues for the most part was Dell. They were
bad about using the near bottom tier for component sourcing. The
case designs contributed to the unwanted heat issues that you
outlined above.

The optiplex had to be one of the worst case designs they ever
came out with.

[Char Jackson]

I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary laptop is a
Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've had absolutely no
issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell laptop. I've never used a
Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.

My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one, the
speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since then, we use
external speakers, which is fine because the laptop rarely moves, and a USB
WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade, since it covers both the 2.4
and the 5GHz bands, whereas the internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

[Big Al]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary laptop is a
Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've had absolutely no
issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell laptop. I've never used a
Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one, the
speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since then, we use
external speakers, which is fine because the laptop rarely moves, and a USB
WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade, since it covers both the 2.4
and the 5GHz bands, whereas the internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I've had a few Dell laptops and I drove one in the ground it lasted so
long, and the 2nd one died when I poured a drink into the keyboard &
fried the MB.

The current Dell I'm on is about 18mo old and runs like a champ.
Running Linux & Windows 10.

[Johnny]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 12:51:30 -0400

Post by Big Al

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I
convinced the company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the
many hard drives killed by heat in two generations of Dell
‘business’ systems. After accounting saw just how many dead drives
we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved purchasing lisy, thank
you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers and
minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and
bought Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a
laptop purchased in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design
capacity, and whose hard drive was replaced by a SSD. And, yes,
the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills drives by overheating
them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary
laptop is a Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've
had absolutely no issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell
laptop. I've never used a Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one,
the speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since
then, we use external speakers, which is fine because the laptop
rarely moves, and a USB WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade,
since it covers both the 2.4 and the 5GHz bands, whereas the
internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I've had a few Dell laptops and I drove one in the ground it lasted
so long, and the 2nd one died when I poured a drink into the keyboard
& fried the MB.
The current Dell I'm on is about 18mo old and runs like a champ.
Running Linux & Windows 10.

I have a Dell Optiplex 7050 16 GB of RAM and a Samsung SSD. I think
it's the best computer I have ever had. I don't see how over heating
could ever be a problem, and the UEFI settings are very easy to navigate
compared to the HP UEFI settings. Of course I'm using Linux Mint.

[Sailfish]

Post by Johnny
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 12:51:30 -0400

Post by Big Al

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I
convinced the company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the
many hard drives killed by heat in two generations of Dell
‘business’ systems. After accounting saw just how many dead drives
we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved purchasing lisy, thank
you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers and
minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and
bought Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a
laptop purchased in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design
capacity, and whose hard drive was replaced by a SSD. And, yes,
the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills drives by overheating
them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary
laptop is a Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've
had absolutely no issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell
laptop. I've never used a Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one,
the speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since
then, we use external speakers, which is fine because the laptop
rarely moves, and a USB WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade,
since it covers both the 2.4 and the 5GHz bands, whereas the
internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I've had a few Dell laptops and I drove one in the ground it lasted
so long, and the 2nd one died when I poured a drink into the keyboard
& fried the MB.
The current Dell I'm on is about 18mo old and runs like a champ.
Running Linux & Windows 10.

I have a Dell Optiplex 7050 16 GB of RAM and a Samsung SSD. I think
it's the best computer I have ever had. I don't see how over heating
could ever be a problem, and the UEFI settings are very easy to navigate
compared to the HP UEFI settings. Of course I'm using Linux Mint.

Ditto, my XPS 8900 has been rock solid; although, I have experienced
problems with their laptop keyboards in the past.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Sailfish

Post by Johnny
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 12:51:30 -0400

Post by Big Al

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I
convinced the company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the
many hard drives killed by heat in two generations of Dell
‘business’ systems. After accounting saw just how many dead drives
we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved purchasing lisy, thank
you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers and
minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and
bought Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a
laptop purchased in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design
capacity, and whose hard drive was replaced by a SSD. And, yes,
the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills drives by overheating
them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary
laptop is a Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've
had absolutely no issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell
laptop. I've never used a Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one,
the speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since
then, we use external speakers, which is fine because the laptop
rarely moves, and a USB WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade,
since it covers both the 2.4 and the 5GHz bands, whereas the
internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I've had a few Dell laptops and I drove one in the ground it lasted
so long, and the 2nd one died when I poured a drink into the keyboard
& fried the MB.
The current Dell I'm on is about 18mo old and runs like a champ.
Running Linux & Windows 10.

I have a Dell Optiplex 7050 16 GB of RAM and a Samsung SSD. I think
it's the best computer I have ever had. I don't see how over heating
could ever be a problem, and the UEFI settings are very easy to navigate
compared to the HP UEFI settings. Of course I'm using Linux Mint.

Ditto, my XPS 8900 has been rock solid; although, I have experienced
problems with their laptop keyboards in the past.

I have a Dell laptop in a closet somewhere, but I can't remember
anything about its keyboard.


However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

[Joel]

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
reasons:

1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.

2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.

But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

[Snit]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Where I like getting mine from an OEM. A bit more expensive but if something
goes wrong I have a single contact. Also tied to how I tend to like macOS, so
there is not much choice in doing a home build. With their new chips the idea
of a Hackintosh is even less likely.

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

Rene

[Ant]

In alt.windows7.general Rene Lamontagne <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
...

Post by Rene Lamontagne
I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

That's impressive. Did it take long to build them?

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Ant
...

Post by Rene Lamontagne
I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

That's impressive. Did it take long to build them?

About 4 hrs each, then an hour or to to install and tune Windows 10.
This does not include reading the Motherboard manual end to end,
Which is done as step 1 the day before and which I consider a must do.

Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,

I *might* still be able to build them. But I don't want to run the risk
of screwing things up.

My fingers still work OK playing classical guitar, but that's different
from building computers.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

I think you're the only person here older than me.

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,

I *might* still be able to build them. But I don't want to run the risk
of screwing things up.
My fingers still work OK playing classical guitar, but that's different
from building computers.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

I think you're the only person here older than me.

Congratulation on the guitar playing, Something I tried to learn yet
could never do, the other thing is typing, Much as I tried I just could
not coordinate my fingers to those 2 tasks.
Yet I can build anything from Astronomical telescopes to engines
,circuit boards Arc welders any electronic gear or whatever crosses my
mind.

Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,

I *might* still be able to build them. But I don't want to run the risk
of screwing things up.
My fingers still work OK playing classical guitar, but that's different
from building computers.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

I think you're the only person here older than me.

Congratulation on the guitar playing,

Thanks.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Something I tried to learn yet
could never do,

I'm still taking lessons weekly. I'm a long way from being professional,
but I'm a pretty advanced amateur. I can play several pretty difficult
pieces, including my favorite, the Tàrrega "Capricho Arabe."

Post by Rene Lamontagne
the other thing is typing, Much as I tried I just could
not coordinate my fingers to those 2 tasks.

30 or so years ago I tried to learn to type using Mavis Beacon software.
I was doing OK, but I got tired of practicing, finally decided it wasn't
worth the trouble for me, and gave it up.

I type in a very unstandard manner, using just a few fingers. I'm pretty
fast, but I have to look at the keyboard. Typing without looking at the
keyboard is necessary for secretaries who have to look at what their
boss wrote, but not for me.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Yet I can build anything from Astronomical telescopes

It was about 60 years ago that I started to grind a 6" mirror, but I
never finished. It was a very boring process.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
to engines
,circuit boards Arc welders any electronic gear or whatever crosses my
mind.

I did build a harpsichord, though, also about 60 years ago. It was from
a Zuckerman kit, and when finished it looked almost exactly like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164888404452?hash=item26641d61e4:g:0V8AAOSwVThgsXWF

Later I built a treble viol and an Appalachian Dulcimer.

And back in my early teenage years, I wanted to be a radio amateur, and
built several devices, including a transmitter and a receiver.

I later built my own stereo amplifiers and tuner from kits.

I gave up wanting to be a radio amateur when I decided I wanted to be
World Chess Champion and devoted all my time and effort to that. I never
got to be anywhere near strong enough, but I became a pretty good
amateur. I knew, played against, and sometimes drew with or beat some of
the best players (including Bobby Fischer). 15 or 20 years ago, I taught
chess in a couple of local schools for a few years, but I almost never
play anymore. I think my last tournament was around 55 years ago, and
even my last offhand game was about 15 years ago.

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of
problems with them, but because of their design. I don't know why
Dell makes non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and
have somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,

I *might* still be able to build them. But I don't want to run the
risk of screwing things up.
My fingers still work OK playing classical guitar, but that's
different from building computers.
 > But What
 > can you expect at 87 years old. :-)
I think you're the only person here older than me.

Congratulation on the guitar playing,

Thanks.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Something I tried to learn yet
could never do,

I'm still taking lessons weekly. I'm a long way from being professional,
but I'm a pretty advanced amateur. I can play several pretty difficult
pieces, including my favorite, the Tàrrega "Capricho Arabe."

Post by Rene Lamontagne
the other thing is typing, Much as I tried I just could
not coordinate my fingers to those 2 tasks.

30 or so years ago I tried to learn to type using Mavis Beacon software.
I was doing OK, but I got tired of practicing, finally decided it wasn't
worth the trouble for me, and gave it up.
I type in a very unstandard manner, using just a few fingers. I'm pretty
fast, but I have to look at the keyboard. Typing without looking at the
keyboard is necessary for secretaries who have to look at what their
boss wrote, but not for me.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Yet I can build anything from Astronomical telescopes

It was about 60 years ago that I started to grind a 6"  mirror, but I
never finished. It was a very boring process.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
to engines
,circuit boards Arc welders  any electronic gear or whatever crosses my
mind.

I did build a harpsichord, though, also about 60 years ago. It was from
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164888404452?hash=item26641d61e4:g:0V8AAOSwVThgsXWF
Later I built a treble viol and an Appalachian Dulcimer.
And back in my early teenage years, I wanted to be a radio amateur, and
built several devices, including a transmitter and a receiver.
I later built my own stereo amplifiers and tuner from kits.
I gave up wanting to be a radio amateur when I decided I wanted to be
World Chess Champion and devoted all my time and effort to that. I never
got to be anywhere near strong enough, but I became a pretty good
amateur. I knew, played against, and sometimes drew with or beat some of
the best players (including Bobby Fischer). 15 or 20 years ago, I taught
chess in a couple of local schools for a few years, but I almost never
play anymore. I think my last tournament was around 55 years ago, and
even my last offhand game was about 15 years ago.

You too have had an interesting life The old saying goes, Variety is the
spice of life.
I wanted to be an electronics technician, took home study courses, Built
dozens of Heathkit and EICO kits including color TVs.

Ground polished and aluminized telescope mirrors and lens from 4 1/4
to 12 1/2 inches.
Ended up being a Power Engineer Third class.

Rene


Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of
problems with them, but because of their design. I don't know why
Dell makes non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and
have somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,

I *might* still be able to build them. But I don't want to run the
risk of screwing things up.
My fingers still work OK playing classical guitar, but that's
different from building computers.
 > But What
 > can you expect at 87 years old. :-)
I think you're the only person here older than me.

Congratulation on the guitar playing,

Thanks.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Something I tried to learn yet
could never do,

I'm still taking lessons weekly. I'm a long way from being professional,
but I'm a pretty advanced amateur. I can play several pretty difficult
pieces, including my favorite, the Tàrrega "Capricho Arabe."

Post by Rene Lamontagne
the other thing is typing, Much as I tried I just could
not coordinate my fingers to those 2 tasks.

30 or so years ago I tried to learn to type using Mavis Beacon software.
I was doing OK, but I got tired of practicing, finally decided it wasn't
worth the trouble for me, and gave it up.
I type in a very unstandard manner, using just a few fingers. I'm pretty
fast, but I have to look at the keyboard. Typing without looking at the
keyboard is necessary for secretaries who have to look at what their
boss wrote, but not for me.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Yet I can build anything from Astronomical telescopes

It was about 60 years ago that I started to grind a 6"  mirror, but I
never finished. It was a very boring process.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
to engines
,circuit boards Arc welders  any electronic gear or whatever crosses my
mind.

I did build a harpsichord, though, also about 60 years ago. It was from
https://www.ebay.com/itm/164888404452?hash=item26641d61e4:g:0V8AAOSwVThgsXWF
Later I built a treble viol and an Appalachian Dulcimer.
And back in my early teenage years, I wanted to be a radio amateur, and
built several devices, including a transmitter and a receiver.
I later built my own stereo amplifiers and tuner from kits.
I gave up wanting to be a radio amateur when I decided I wanted to be
World Chess Champion and devoted all my time and effort to that. I never
got to be anywhere near strong enough, but I became a pretty good
amateur. I knew, played against, and sometimes drew with or beat some of
the best players (including Bobby Fischer). 15 or 20 years ago, I taught
chess in a couple of local schools for a few years, but I almost never
play anymore. I think my last tournament was around 55 years ago, and
even my last offhand game was about 15 years ago.

You too have had an interesting life The old saying goes, Variety is the
spice of life.

Yep!

Post by Rene Lamontagne
I wanted to be an electronics technician, took home study courses, Built
dozens of Heathkit and EICO kits including color TVs.
Ground polished and aluminized telescope mirrors and lens from 4 1/4
to 12 1/2 inches.

That's very big.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Ended up being a Power Engineer Third class.

I've had three careers:

1. Photography
2. Programmer (starting in 1962) and manager of programmers.
3. VP of a manufacturing firm

(then back to programming manager).

[Sailfish]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Sailfish

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.

I am lucky to have a really retentive memory, I remember much of my
growing up years from about 3 years old, I was reading school books at 4
years old.


Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Sailfish

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But What
can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.

I am lucky to have a really retentive memory,

My memory is retentive for some things, but not others. For example, I
can still remember Chess games and opening lines I learned around 65
years ago.

If I were too play a game now, I would be nowhere near as good as I used
to be, but I would still be well above average.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
I remember much of my
growing up years from about 3 years old,

I remember almost nothing from that early an age.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
I was reading school books at 4
years old.

I can't remember how old I was when I first learned to read, but I know
that it was well before I started school at the age of six. I remember
reading the full "Les Miserables" (in translation) at about 7 years old.

[Sailfish]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Sailfish

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of
problems with them, but because of their design. I don't know why
Dell makes non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and
have somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I,
My fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it
kind of hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2
builds,But What can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.

I am lucky to have a really retentive memory,

My memory is retentive for some things, but not others. For example, I
can still remember Chess games and opening lines I learned around 65
years ago.
If I were too play a game now, I would be nowhere near as good as I used
to be, but I would still be well above average.

Regrettably, I was never even approached to average; though, the game
always intrigued me.

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne
I remember much of my
growing up years from about 3 years old,

I remember almost nothing from that early an age.

My earliest connection has always been when I was an infant playing with
a truck but nothing after until several years later.

[Sailfish]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Sailfish

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell
makes non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

I am still able to build them, Built 2 last fall for my son and I, My
fingers still work OK but my eyesight is really bad, makes it kind of
hard, but I persevere, that will probably be my last 2 builds,But
What can you expect at 87 years old. :-)

You put this 72 yr old youngster to shame.

I am lucky to have a really retentive memory, I remember much of my
growing up years from about 3 years old, I was reading school books at 4
years old.

+5

[Sruti]

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?

Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional

Is there anything missing from the list?

[FromTheRafters]

Post by Sruti

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?
Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional
Is there anything missing from the list?

Neon lights?

Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
usage it will have.

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by FromTheRafters

Post by Sruti

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?
Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional
Is there anything missing from the list?

Neon lights?
Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
usage it will have.

CPU cooler is a must
NVMe or SSD for C; drive
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card
No need for sound card, onboard sound is good

Accessories, Keyboard, Mouse Speakers and a good monitor
If you have some good parts on hand use them to cut cost.

Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by FromTheRafters

Post by Sruti

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?
Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional
Is there anything missing from the list?

Neon lights?
Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
usage it will have.

Yes.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU cooler is a must

Yes.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive

Yes. Not a must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

Yes, I probably won't get a video card, unless I can find something very
good at a very attractive price.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
No need for sound card, onboard sound is good

Yes, it's fine here.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
Accessories, Keyboard, Mouse Speakers and a good monitor
If you have some good parts on hand use them to cut cost.

I have all those in your last paragraph. The only things I'd like to
replace are my two 24"monitors. I'd like one or two much bigger ones,
but it's unlikely that I would spend the money for it/them. I'll stick
with what I have.

Unless more information to the contrary comes out between now and then,
I'll probably try upgrading to 11 before I upgrade the hardware.

[Roger Blake]

Post by Ken Blake
Yes. Not a must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

None of my PCs are new enough to support NVMe. I'm too cheap to buy/build a new
computer since my old ones do everything I need and SSD is plenty fast for my
purposes. (I would go NVMe though if I needed to buy something new unless it
was a lot more expensive.)

--

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Roger Blake

Post by Ken Blake
Yes. Not a must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

None of my PCs are new enough to support NVMe. I'm too cheap to buy/build a new
computer since my old ones do everything I need and SSD is plenty fast for my
purposes. (I would go NVMe though if I needed to buy something new unless it
was a lot more expensive.)

Both of my last builds have NVMe's my sons has a 256 GB and mine has 2
256 GB
plus each has a 256 GB SSD and a 1 TB spinning drive, most new M/Bs now
come with 2 NVMe sockets, and the price of these tiny drives is fairly
reasonable.

Rene

[Joel]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Roger Blake
None of my PCs are new enough to support NVMe. I'm too cheap to buy/build a new
computer since my old ones do everything I need and SSD is plenty fast for my
purposes. (I would go NVMe though if I needed to buy something new unless it
was a lot more expensive.)

Both of my last builds have NVMe's my sons has a 256 GB and mine has 2
256 GB
plus each has a 256 GB SSD and a 1 TB spinning drive, most new M/Bs now
come with 2 NVMe sockets, and the price of these tiny drives is fairly
reasonable.

I put a 1 TB NVMe SSD in my new box, no other storage drive, no
optical drive. The SSD was $110 from Newegg. I bought my first 1 TB
hard drive in 2009, and never needed anything larger.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by Roger Blake

Post by Ken Blake
Yes. Not a must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

None of my PCs are new enough to support NVMe. I'm too cheap to buy/build a new
computer since my old ones do everything I need and SSD is plenty fast for my
purposes. (I would go NVMe though if I needed to buy something new unless it
was a lot more expensive.)

Both of my last builds have NVMe's my sons has a 256 GB and mine has 2
256 GB
plus each has a 256 GB SSD and a 1 TB spinning drive, most new M/Bs now
come with 2 NVMe sockets, and the price of these tiny drives is fairly
reasonable.

+1
My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
so I chose that option.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 6/26/21 10:22 PM, Char Jackson wrote:

[snip]

Post by Char Jackson
My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
so I chose that option.

AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Char Jackson
My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
so I chose that option.

AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

Yes, quite common , NVMe can and will disable Sata ports, Says so in the
manual sand it on both my last builds with NVMe drives/

Rene

[Paul]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Char Jackson
My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
so I chose that option.

AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

That's the flex chipset at work.

Electrical signals on the chipset, now have multiple definitions.

This is similar to embedded or SOC tech, where an electrical
signal can have four definitions, and they're programmable.

It's the job of the engineer, to select electrical signals
and assign functions. And let me tell you, that job *sucks*,
especially if you have no guidance from the manufacturer.
You can sit there for hours, scratching your head and saying
"what exactly were they thinking, and what am I missing?".

In some cases, you can wire two peripherals on the motherboard,
to a single set of signals. Maybe this requires a re-driver for
SI reasons. The signal can run to a SATA connector (diff pair
for TX+- and RX+-), but the signals could also be used
as a PCI Express lane x1 (TX pair and RX pair for bidir PCIe)
or as USB3 pins. Since a lot of these diff technologies
are low amplitude, a lot of reuse is possible.

When you crack the manual on an enthusiast board, the manual
is "full of rules". It helps to examine the block diagram
of the motherboard first, but the resolution may not be
there to address this sort of reuse.

However, if you did your homework, for example, visited
Anandtech and saw their "review of Z97", then there can
be a diagram in there with the "flex diagram" and a table.
That will help a neophyte get the hang of how flex works.

This is different than OEM machines, where for the most part
an OEM sticks with a single electrical definition. This reduced support
costs from "stupid phone calls". Since OEM machines are not
properly documented (no BIOS manual), this is pretty clever
of them to not attempt options of any complexity.

I didn't get it at first either, but after a couple of
those chipset review articles, you could see the progression
from one chipset to the next.

Paul

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Paul

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Char Jackson
My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
so I chose that option.

AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not
be for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

That's the flex chipset at work.
Electrical signals on the chipset, now have multiple definitions.
This is similar to embedded or SOC tech, where an electrical
signal can have four definitions, and they're programmable.
It's the job of the engineer, to select electrical signals
and assign functions. And let me tell you, that job *sucks*,
especially if you have no guidance from the manufacturer.
You can sit there for hours, scratching your head and saying
"what exactly were they thinking, and what am I missing?".
In some cases, you can wire two peripherals on the motherboard,
to a single set of signals. Maybe this requires a re-driver for
SI reasons. The signal can run to a SATA connector (diff pair
for TX+- and RX+-), but the signals could also be used
as a PCI Express lane x1 (TX pair and RX pair for bidir PCIe)
or as USB3 pins. Since a lot of these diff technologies
are low amplitude, a lot of reuse is possible.
When you crack the manual on an enthusiast board, the manual
is "full of rules". It helps to examine the block diagram
of the motherboard first, but the resolution may not be
there to address this sort of reuse.
However, if you did your homework, for example, visited
Anandtech and saw their "review of Z97", then there can
be a diagram in there with the "flex diagram" and a table.
That will help a neophyte get the hang of how flex works.
This is different than OEM machines, where for the most part
an OEM sticks with a single electrical definition. This reduced support
costs from "stupid phone calls". Since OEM machines are not
properly documented (no BIOS manual), this is pretty clever
of them to not attempt options of any complexity.
I didn't get it at first either, but after a couple of
those chipset review articles, you could see the progression
from one chipset to the next.
   Paul

Yes it's in both my Asus manuals, it gives options and tells which Sata
port will be affected, It still pays to *RTFM*

I just ran the whynotwin11.exe on this AMD 5 3400G rig and got 11 green
OKs out of 11, I haven't checked my sons i7 8700 yet but should be OK.

Rene

[Char Jackson]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Char Jackson
My latest build has 3 NVMe slots, but you have to check the fine print. I
think one steals bandwidth from a PCIe slot, one disables a SATA port, and
the other disables something else. I'm not using that particular PCIe slot,
so I chose that option.

AFAIK, NVMe has no reason to disable a SATA port. That slot might not be
for NVMe but m.2 SATA (which uses a similar connector).

From my motherboard manual:

Installation Notices for the PCIEX4, M.2 and SATA Connectors:
Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the Chipset, the
availability of the SATA connectors may be affected by the type of device
installed in the M2. sockets. The M2M connector shares bandwidth with the
SATA3 4, 5 connectors. The M2A connector shares bandwidth with the SATA3
1; the M2P connector shares bandwidth with the PCIEX4 connector. Refer to
the following tables for details.

Then there's a table that essentially says the same thing.

So the reason is, "Due to the limited number of lanes provided by the
Chipset".

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by Roger Blake

Post by Ken Blake
Yes. Not a must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

None of my PCs are new enough to support NVMe. I'm too cheap to buy/build a new
computer since my old ones do everything I need and SSD is plenty fast for my
purposes. (I would go NVMe though if I needed to buy something new unless it
was a lot more expensive.)

Do you have a PCIe 4-lane slot? Then you can get an adapter card that
lets you use a NVMe, although a non-NVMe-aware system probably won't
boot from it.

I now have a system with 2 NVMe slots on the motherboard, but before
that I used such an adapter card to increase the speed of virtual machines.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0773ZR6L8/

[Paul]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

Yes, I probably won't get a video card, unless I can find something very
good at a very attractive price.

The Intel graphics don't come with driver updates
for as long as an NVidia or AMD card might. The latter
two are six years. Which means you want to catch cards
being released as brand new silicon, to get the best support.
It doesn't matter that it's a gamer card - what matters is
you're getting driver support.

My Optiplex refurb, yes, Windows Update does install an Intel
driver when you install Windows 10. But there's no
control panel to position Monitor 1 next to Monitor 2.
And the driver is old as the hills and probably eight
versions of WDDM too old.

Support is getting so shabby, these might as well
be SmartPhones.

Intel could sell you a standalone video card... but
what is their support policy on those ? Have they
even figured out their support policy yet ?

The NVidia and AMD cards, even the lowest end ones,
are two-slot cards and porkers. The era of "2D desktop cards"
seems to be gone now. You can't buy anything to directly
compete with Intel HD graphics, which has reasonable
dimensions and some capabilities. In fact, some ancient
pieces of silicon have started shipping again (GT730?)
in an attempt to "give the market something to buy".
Pretty pathetic. I can't see how driver support works
for that, as they're EOL. It's like buying a lump of coal.

Paul

[Char Jackson]

Post by Paul
The Intel graphics don't come with driver updates
for as long as an NVidia or AMD card might. The latter
two are six years. Which means you want to catch cards
being released as brand new silicon, to get the best support.
It doesn't matter that it's a gamer card - what matters is
you're getting driver support.

What kind of computer user needs (frequent) video card driver updates?
Gamers, I suppose, but who else? I've never needed a video driver update,
AFAICR, and I don't care about support. I still have a GT8600 installed in
a system here, although I tend to use RDP 99.9% of the time so it doesn't
get used much. It still works fine, though, and hasn't had a driver update
in a decade or so.

Post by Paul
My Optiplex refurb, yes, Windows Update does install an Intel
driver when you install Windows 10. But there's no
control panel to position Monitor 1 next to Monitor 2.

Doesn't every version of Windows since at least XP offer that functionality
out of the box? It's on the screen where you ask Windows to put a giant "1"
and "2" on the screens and if you don't like the layout, you just drag the
left one right or the right one left to switch them.

[Paul]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Paul
The Intel graphics don't come with driver updates
for as long as an NVidia or AMD card might. The latter
two are six years. Which means you want to catch cards
being released as brand new silicon, to get the best support.
It doesn't matter that it's a gamer card - what matters is
you're getting driver support.

What kind of computer user needs (frequent) video card driver updates?
Gamers, I suppose, but who else? I've never needed a video driver update,
AFAICR, and I don't care about support. I still have a GT8600 installed in
a system here, although I tend to use RDP 99.9% of the time so it doesn't
get used much. It still works fine, though, and hasn't had a driver update
in a decade or so.

Post by Paul
My Optiplex refurb, yes, Windows Update does install an Intel
driver when you install Windows 10. But there's no
control panel to position Monitor 1 next to Monitor 2.

Doesn't every version of Windows since at least XP offer that functionality
out of the box? It's on the screen where you ask Windows to put a giant "1"
and "2" on the screens and if you don't like the layout, you just drag the
left one right or the right one left to switch them.

OK.

My materials were:

1) Fresh 21H1 install.
2) Never seen two monitors, only one monitor.
3) Plug in VGA monitor in mid-session.
Device Manager acknowledged the new monitor.
The "discovery sound" came out through the speakers.
4) Display portion of Settings showed no dual monitor setup.

I just tried it now, and now it's working ? WTF ?

It didn't do this yesterday.

Loading Image...

What was happening yesterday, is the Display settings
window would not show the two rectangles. Now, if you
plug or unplug the second monitor, the Display panel
(still open) responds appropriately and puts up the
picture of the two monitors when there are two monitors.

Since it was a fresh install, maybe it was still
running the Microsoft Basic Display Adapter, but if it
was doing that, I wouldn't have had 1440x900 resolution
on the Acer monitor. And I don't recollect seeing
"circles are ovals" on that monitor at any time. It
seemed to be running a proper driver.

Paul

[Mark Lloyd]

On 6/26/21 6:42 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snp]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive

Yes. Not a  must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

NVMe speed depends on PCIe speed. For the fastest, you need a CPU that
supports PCIe 4. It'll still work on PCIe 3, but will be slower (but
still a lot faster than a SATA drive).

Also, note that drive letters (like C:) are a function of Windows, and
have nothing to do with the drive itself.

[snip]

I have all those in your last paragraph. The only things I'd like to
replace are my two 24"monitors. I'd like one or two much bigger ones,
but it's unlikely that I would spend the money for it/them. I'll stick
with what I have.

Make sure you don't need a new ethernet cable.

Unless more information to the contrary comes out between now and then,
I'll probably try upgrading to 11 before I upgrade the hardware.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snp]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive

Yes. Not a  must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

NVMe speed depends on PCIe speed. For the fastest, you need a CPU that
supports PCIe 4. It'll still work on PCIe 3, but will be slower (but
still a lot faster than a SATA drive).
Also, note that drive letters (like C:) are a function of Windows, and
have nothing to do with the drive itself.

I'm quite sure that Ken knows that. Referring to a C: drive is simply
shorthand for the Windows disk volume. That volume can use any available
drive letter, but it usually ends up being C:. A: and B: were historically
used for floppy drives, so C: was the next available letter.

Many years ago, after hearing that malware was being found that was looking
for hardcoded paths such as C:\Windows\system32, I built a system where my
Windows volume was D:. After that was up and running, I cloned it to a
second volume that I called C:, which I never booted into. If malware came
along and wanted to drop something into a directory on C:, it was free to
do that but it would never get executed.

Yes, there were a few problems or gaps in that strategy, but it seemed
smart at the time. :-)

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

I have all those in your last paragraph. The only things I'd like to
replace are my two 24"monitors. I'd like one or two much bigger ones,
but it's unlikely that I would spend the money for it/them. I'll stick
with what I have.

Make sure you don't need a new ethernet cable.

How did an Ethernet cable make its way into a video discussion?

[Apd]

Post by Char Jackson
Many years ago, after hearing that malware was being found that was
looking for hardcoded paths such as C:\Windows\system32, I built a
system where my Windows volume was D:. After that was up and running, I
cloned it to a second volume that I called C:, which I never booted
into. If malware came along and wanted to drop something into a
directory on C:, it was free to do that but it would never get executed.

My first NT based Win was Win2k and I installed it on D:\winnt\ to
dual boot alongside a DOS partition which I wanted to keep as C:.
I later created fake "Windows" directories on C: for the benefit of
malware. There were a few that used hard-coded paths but not the
majority, IME.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Apd

Post by Char Jackson
Many years ago, after hearing that malware was being found that was
looking for hardcoded paths such as C:\Windows\system32, I built a
system where my Windows volume was D:. After that was up and running, I
cloned it to a second volume that I called C:, which I never booted
into. If malware came along and wanted to drop something into a
directory on C:, it was free to do that but it would never get executed.

My first NT based Win was Win2k and I installed it on D:\winnt\ to
dual boot alongside a DOS partition which I wanted to keep as C:.
I later created fake "Windows" directories on C: for the benefit of
malware. There were a few that used hard-coded paths but not the
majority, IME.

Nice. Thank you, sir. I see that I wasn't the only one.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snp]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive

Yes. Not a  must, but very desirable. Especially NVMe. I don't think I'd
buy a SSD anymore.

NVMe speed depends on PCIe speed. For the fastest, you need a CPU that
supports PCIe 4. It'll still work on PCIe 3, but will be slower (but
still a lot faster than a SATA drive).
Also, note that drive letters (like C:) are a function of Windows, and
have nothing to do with the drive itself.

Yes, of course. I know that. My point was that I wanted an NVMe drive
to use for the WIndows C: drive.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 6/26/21 6:18 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

[snip]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU cooler is a must

It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
(AMD Ryzen 3700X).

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
No need for sound card, onboard sound is  good
Accessories, Keyboard, Mouse   Speakers and a good monitor
If you have some good parts on hand use them to cut cost.
Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU cooler is a must

It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
(AMD Ryzen 3700X).

I don't know about AMD CPUs, but I've never seen it included with an
Intel CPU.

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
No need for sound card, onboard sound is  good
Accessories, Keyboard, Mouse   Speakers and a good monitor
If you have some good parts on hand use them to cut cost.
Rene

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU cooler is a must

It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this year
(AMD Ryzen 3700X).

But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.

I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
learn!
[]

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU cooler is a must

It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this
year (AMD Ryzen 3700X).

But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.

I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
learn!
[]

Yes both Intel and AMD Have GPUs built into some of their CPUs that is
the Onboard graphics, The motherboard must be able to support these CPUs
and have either an HDMI or Displayport socket.

As an example my sons rig has an Intel i7 8700 CPU with Intel UHD 630
graphics.
My unit has an AMD 5 3400G CPU using Vega 11 graphics. the G denote
built in GPU.

Rene

[Ken Blake]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Rene Lamontagne
CPU cooler is a must

It may be included with the CPU. It was with the one I bought this
year (AMD Ryzen 3700X).

But watch out for case oddities: I recently read a review of a
Silverstone case by someone who had to get a different CPU cooler (I
don't know if that meant heatsink, fan, or both) to the one he'd bought,
as it wouldn't fit (unusual mounting arrangement of mobo in case).

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Rene Lamontagne
NVMe or SSD for C; drive
CPU graphics are good unless for heavy gaming, then video card

If your CPU includes graphics, and your main board supports that.

I was puzzled, and decided Rene probably meant motherboard graphics. I
didn't know CPUs ever included graphics, though I'm always willing to
learn!
[]

Yes both Intel and AMD Have GPUs built into some of their CPUs that is
the Onboard graphics,

Thanks for the clarification. I never knew that.

Post by Rene Lamontagne
The motherboard must be able to support these CPUs
and have either an HDMI or Displayport socket.
As an example my sons rig has an Intel i7 8700 CPU with Intel UHD 630
graphics.
My unit has an AMD 5 3400G CPU using Vega 11 graphics. the G denote
built in GPU.
Rene

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by FromTheRafters

Post by Sruti

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?
Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional
Is there anything missing from the list?

Neon lights?
Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
usage it will have.

IIRC, main boards usually include audio. Some CPUs include video,
however a lot don't.

One thing I like to include is a memory (like SD) card reader that fits
in the 3.5-inch bay.

However, one little thing my last main board didn't include was a little
system speaker - needed to hear the startup and any error beeps.
https://www.amazon.com/Motherboard-Speaker-Desktop-Computer-Internal/dp/B079DKDSJ9/

[Ken Blake]

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by FromTheRafters

Post by Sruti

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?
Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional
Is there anything missing from the list?

Neon lights?
Seriously though, audio board, graphics board - a lot depends upon what
usage it will have.

IIRC, main boards usually include audio.

Yes.

Post by Mark Lloyd
Some CPUs include video,
however a lot don't.

CPUs? I think you mean motherboards, not CPUs.

Post by Mark Lloyd
One thing I like to include is a memory (like SD) card reader that fits
in the 3.5-inch bay.
However, one little thing my last main board didn't include was a little
system speaker - needed to hear the startup and any error beeps.
https://www.amazon.com/Motherboard-Speaker-Desktop-Computer-Internal/dp/B079DKDSJ9/

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 13:45:20, Mark Lloyd <***@mail.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
[]

Post by Mark Lloyd
However, one little thing my last main board didn't include was a
little system speaker - needed to hear the startup and any error beeps.
https://www.amazon.com/Motherboard-Speaker-Desktop-Computer-Internal/dp/
B079DKDSJ9/

I wouldn't expect the little speaker to come with the motherboard - more
with the case, or as a standalone item (probably salvaged from an old
case). I have seen little piezo sounders attached to the standard
speaker connector, and could imagine one of _those_ being supplied with
the mobo - just sort of hanging over the mobo by the stiffness of the
wires, as they're so light, rather than actually being mounted/fixed to
the case.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Sruti

Post by Ken Blake
I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Is this what you need to build a computer?
Case
CPU
Memory modules
Main board
HD Cables
Power unit
Hard disk
Thermal paste
Additional internal fans - optional
Is there anything missing from the list?

CPU fan (or water cooler)
CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)
SSD or NvME drive(s)
Graphics Card (optional)

[Mark Lloyd]

On 6/26/21 6:32 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snip]

Post by Ken Blake
CPU fan (or water cooler)
CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)

I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

Post by Ken Blake
SSD or NvME drive(s)
Graphics Card (optional)

Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Ken Blake
CPU fan (or water cooler)
CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)

I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

I think I was an early adopter of getting rid of floppy drives and all
optical drives. I still have a CD/DVD-R drive in a drawer somewhere,
intended to be mounted internally, but using life events as a time gauge, I
probably haven't dragged it out since about 2010-2011. At this point, I
probably never will. I also have a few packages of unused CD-Rs and DVD-Rs
but those, too, must be well over a decade old and may not be in good shape
anymore.

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Ken Blake
SSD or NvME drive(s)
Graphics Card (optional)

Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

When I was building my latest system, a few of the AMD CPUs included
onboard graphics but all of the Intel CPUs that I was considering had that
feature. I don't think I've seen or heard of a motherboard that didn't have
one or more graphics ports of some kind, whether it was VGA, HDMI,
DisplayPort, etc.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Ken Blake
CPU fan (or water cooler)
CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)

I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

I have a separate USB-connected one, but I still prefer to have one
built-in. They're very inexpensive.

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Ken Blake
SSD or NvME drive(s)
Graphics Card (optional)

Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

I don't think any CPU does, and in my experience, most motherboards do.

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Ken Blake
CPU fan (or water cooler)
CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)

I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

I have a separate USB-connected one, but I still prefer to have one
built-in. They're very inexpensive.

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by Ken Blake
SSD or NvME drive(s)
Graphics Card (optional)

Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

I don't think any CPU does, and in my experience, most motherboards do.

Many Intel CPU,s have onboard graphics using the IntelUHD630 set, AMD
make it easier, their CPUs With onboard graphics end with a G example '5
3400G' using the Vega 8 or 11 set.
Most of the better MBs now have onboard graphics capability with an HDMI
or DIsplayport socket.

Rene

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Ken Blake
CPU fan (or water cooler)
CD/DVD drive (optional, but I want one)

I still have one in each of my desktop computers, but don't use them
very much. A separate USB-connected one should be suitable.

Post by Ken Blake
SSD or NvME drive(s)
Graphics Card (optional)

Required with a CPU and main board that don't provide graphics. Many
CPUs don't, and IIRC very few main boards do.

I think you'll find nowadays most motherboards now _do_ include a basic
graphics "board" - it's sort of reached the stage audio did a few years
ago (and before that, disc controllers and serial/parallel ports!).

What may initially seem odd is that some _high end_ boards didn't - the
assumption being that if someone was building a PC using a high-end
motherboard, they wouldn't be happy with basic graphics, so would be
adding a good graphics board of their own choice anyway. Though I've not
seen a mobo without on-board graphics for some time - but I don't look
at gaming motherboards, so such may still exist.

[Sailfish]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems
with them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts. Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

Like you, I used to buy barebones and build it myself but fat fingers
and blinky eyesight stopped me.

I split the purchase with my system, going with an on-sale Dell box and
then added a 600W power supply, a graphics card plus dual 2TB
harddrives, which I've since upgraded to 4TB. It was cheaper at the time
but since bitcoin mining took hold (now possibily letting up?)
purchasing a decent gaming card is ridiculously over-priced.

[...w¡ñ§±¤n]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Joel

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

That's a good example of why I prefer to self-assemble a computer, I
don't want to be handheld by an OEM, with their peripherals with the
corporate name all over the parts.  Not to say that's the *only*
reason, by a long shot, but it illustrates the overall point.

I used to self-assemble computer, but I no longer do, primarily for two
1. At my age, I am now close to all thumbs.
2. If something doesn't work, I want somebody else to troubleshoot it.
But I don't buy brand-name computers. I pick the components and have
somebody else assemble them.

For desktops, I've been happy with both 'build your own, have someone build.
For the latter I've always choose a company with a long term history.
Too many mom and pop shops are skewed towards troubleshooting user created
problems than building systems properly, burning in and testing prior to
delivery and short term employee retention. My favorite builder, but
pricey, is Puget Systems(Lifetime tech support)- have had three systems
from them and not a single problem.

For laptops and tablets.
- Laptop...only two choices Lenovo or Acer
- Tablets - Surface or Yoga

[Sailfish]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Sailfish

Post by Johnny
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 12:51:30 -0400

Post by Big Al

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I
convinced the company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the
many hard drives killed by heat in two generations of Dell
‘business’ systems. After accounting saw just how many dead drives
we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved purchasing lisy, thank
you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers and
minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and
bought Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a
laptop purchased in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design
capacity, and whose hard drive was replaced by a SSD. And, yes,
the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills drives by overheating
them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary
laptop is a Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've
had absolutely no issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell
laptop. I've never used a Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one,
the speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since
then, we use external speakers, which is fine because the laptop
rarely moves, and a USB WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade,
since it covers both the 2.4 and the 5GHz bands, whereas the
internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I've had a few Dell laptops and I drove one in the ground it lasted
so long, and the 2nd one died when I poured a drink into the keyboard
& fried the MB.
The current Dell I'm on is about 18mo old and runs like a champ.
Running Linux & Windows 10.

I have a Dell Optiplex 7050 16 GB of RAM and a Samsung SSD. I think
it's the best computer I have ever had. I don't see how over heating
could ever be a problem, and the UEFI settings are very easy to navigate
compared to the HP UEFI settings. Of course I'm using Linux Mint.

Ditto, my XPS 8900 has been rock solid; although, I have experienced
problems with their laptop keyboards in the past.

I have a Dell laptop in a closet somewhere, but I can't remember
anything about its keyboard.
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

My system came with non-illuminated keys so I never really used it
except as a temporary backup. I now use backlit keyboards. My current
one is a Logitech K800 which has a great feel to it, at least for my liking.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 6/26/21 10:19 PM, Sailfish wrote:

[snip]

Post by Sailfish
My system came with non-illuminated keys so I never really used it
except as a temporary backup. I now use backlit keyboards. My current
one is a Logitech K800 which has a great feel to it, at least for my liking.

When ordering my latest laptop, I decided on a backlit keyboard. That
has been a good decision.

Fn-SPACE turns on the white LEDs.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Sailfish
My system came with non-illuminated keys so I never really used it
except as a temporary backup. I now use backlit keyboards. My current
one is a Logitech K800 which has a great feel to it, at least for my liking.

When ordering my latest laptop, I decided on a backlit keyboard. That
has been a good decision.
Fn-SPACE turns on the white LEDs.

My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each of my
systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]

Post by Sailfish
My system came with non-illuminated keys so I never really used it
except as a temporary backup. I now use backlit keyboards. My current
one is a Logitech K800 which has a great feel to it, at least for my liking.

When ordering my latest laptop, I decided on a backlit keyboard. That
has been a good decision.
Fn-SPACE turns on the white LEDs.

My 2013 laptop came with a lighted keyboard. Needless to say, each of my
systems since then has had a lighted keyboard. I consider it a must-have.

I've never had one. Maybe the next time I buy a keyboard, I'll give it
at try.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)

[Ken Blake]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)

No (and a much better keyboard would be very inexpensive), but there's
nothing harder to do than convincing my wife that she should.

She also insists on using Microsoft Edge and Outlook.exe, so that
whenever I go to her computer to help her with a problem (which is very
often) I have trouble trying to figure how to do what she wants to do.

She's good doing some things, but she's terrible with computers, and
often asks me the same questions again and again. I use Quicken for all
our financial record-keeping and a couple of years ago, she wanted to
take that over from me. I absolutely refused to let her. It would have
taken no time at all for her to royally screw it all up.

[Char Jackson]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)

No (and a much better keyboard would be very inexpensive), but there's
nothing harder to do than convincing my wife that she should.

That can be a significant hill to climb.

Post by Ken Blake
She also insists on using Microsoft Edge and Outlook.exe, so that
whenever I go to her computer to help her with a problem (which is very
often) I have trouble trying to figure how to do what she wants to do.
She's good doing some things, but she's terrible with computers, and
often asks me the same questions again and again. I use Quicken for all
our financial record-keeping and a couple of years ago, she wanted to
take that over from me. I absolutely refused to let her. It would have
taken no time at all for her to royally screw it all up.

Not to be morbid or anything, but I assume you've created notes of some
kind in case you exit stage left before her, leaving her to figure
everything out and carry on.

At my house, I take care of the recurring bills and the annual taxes, while
my wife handles the investments. We talk frequently, and I think each of us
could very easily take over from the other if we had to.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Ken Blake
However I hate the Dell desktop keyboards, not because of problems with
them, but because of their design. I don't know why Dell makes
non-standard keyboards.

Yes, but, is there anything easier to change than a keyboard? :-)

No (and a much better keyboard would be very inexpensive), but there's
nothing harder to do than convincing my wife that she should.

That can be a significant hill to climb.

Post by Ken Blake
She also insists on using Microsoft Edge and Outlook.exe, so that
whenever I go to her computer to help her with a problem (which is very
often) I have trouble trying to figure how to do what she wants to do.
She's good doing some things, but she's terrible with computers, and
often asks me the same questions again and again. I use Quicken for all
our financial record-keeping and a couple of years ago, she wanted to
take that over from me. I absolutely refused to let her. It would have
taken no time at all for her to royally screw it all up.

Not to be morbid or anything, but I assume you've created notes of some
kind in case you exit stage left before her, leaving her to figure
everything out and carry on.

She'll never figure it out. I've given all the information to our son,
who is a computer professional.


And by the way, she's been having some still-undiagnosed medical
problems this year. I'm worried that she may die well before me.

Post by Char Jackson
At my house, I take care of the recurring bills and the annual taxes, while
my wife handles the investments. We talk frequently, and I think each of us
could very easily take over from the other if we had to.

Great!

[Paul]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary laptop is a
Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've had absolutely no
issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell laptop. I've never used a
Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one, the
speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since then, we use
external speakers, which is fine because the laptop rarely moves, and a USB
WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade, since it covers both the 2.4
and the 5GHz bands, whereas the internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

It makes a difference whether the product has Management Engine
enabled or not, as an attack surface. ME is normally a part of their
Business lineup.

All those refurb Optiplexes have Q chipsets with ME, but it
should be de-equipped from a "mostly operational" point of view.

Thanks to Intel, we can't have a motherboard jumper labeled "ME OFF",
so it is never entirely possible to dismiss remote attacks. Or
remote invitations to "enter" for that matter.

As two examples, the Test Machine (home build) has an ME hidden in it,
but it's disabled (wrong SKU so should not work). The Optiplex has a Q45
chipset and ME is "available". But who knows what it's capable
of right now, as I'm sitting here. It could dial out. It has
Computrace, which is set to "disabled" in the BIOS, as some
sort of joke (Computrace should still work, no matter what).

Maybe the OEM computers you people got are "Wonder Ponies",
but on the other hand, they're "filled with stuff that squeaks".
And again, thanks to Intel and others, are not particularly
trustworthy.

As an example of something that squeaks, the Business laptops
have passwords. The passwords are stored in a 2K serial EEPROM.
Let's say you don't set the passwords. A colleague could come
by your desk and set the password on you. Now, in the old days,
you'd just pull the CMOS battery and it's all fixed (no password
again). Well, on the Business laptops, pulling the battery does
nothing, and the <unknown> password prompt is staring you in
the face. This means you're pretty well "bound" to the password
scheme and must use it. Or, someone will play an expensive joke on
you (needs "factory reset").

That's why I do all my computing with the Celeron 300 and 440BX
chipset. Because all it did, was be a computer. It had no
pretenses to being an Internet Poker Machine.

Paul

[TheGremlin]

Paul <***@needed.invalid> Wrote in message:r Ponies",but on the
other hand, they're "filled with stuff that squeaks".And again,
thanks to Intel and others, are not particularlytrustworthy.As an
example of something that squeaks, the Business laptopshave
passwords. The passwords are stored in a 2K serial EEPROM.Let's
say you don't set the passwords. A colleague could comeby your
desk and set the password on you. Now, in the old days,you'd just
pull the CMOS battery and it's all fixed (no passwordagain).
Well, on the Business laptops, pulling the battery doesnothing,
and the <unknown> password prompt is staring you inthe face. This
means you're pretty well "bound" to the passwordscheme and must
use it. Or, someone will play an expensive joke onyou (needs
"factory reset").That's why I do all my computing with the
Celeron 300 and 440BXchipset. Because all it did, was be a
computer. It had nopretenses to being an Internet Poker Machine.
Paul

Computrace is/was a subscription service. For anti theft. And
depending on how it was implemented it could be nothing more than
an eeprom flash away from removal.

The dell password setting u mentioned has a backdoor to it. Theres
a "master" password based on your service id tag. With the right
software or a friendly Dell technician you can use the master
password to get in and remove the previously set password without
having to know what it was.

[Shadow]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 15:03:56 -0400 (EDT), TheGremlin

Post by TheGremlin
other hand, they're "filled with stuff that squeaks".And again,
thanks to Intel and others, are not particularlytrustworthy.As an
example of something that squeaks, the Business laptopshave
passwords. The passwords are stored in a 2K serial EEPROM.Let's
say you don't set the passwords. A colleague could comeby your
desk and set the password on you. Now, in the old days,you'd just
pull the CMOS battery and it's all fixed (no passwordagain).
Well, on the Business laptops, pulling the battery doesnothing,
and the <unknown> password prompt is staring you inthe face. This
means you're pretty well "bound" to the passwordscheme and must
use it. Or, someone will play an expensive joke onyou (needs
"factory reset").That's why I do all my computing with the
Celeron 300 and 440BXchipset. Because all it did, was be a
computer. It had nopretenses to being an Internet Poker Machine.
Paul
Computrace is/was a subscription service. For anti theft. And
depending on how it was implemented it could be nothing more than
an eeprom flash away from removal.
The dell password setting u mentioned has a backdoor to it. Theres
a "master" password based on your service id tag. With the right
software or a friendly Dell technician you can use the master
password to get in and remove the previously set password without
having to know what it was.

True. I had to resort to a third party "master password
remover" to unlock a Dell which was given to my sister and she gave to
me. Otherwise I couldn't install XP on it.
On the upside, that laptop still works. It's an i7 from circa
2010.
[]'s

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Shadow
On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 15:03:56 -0400 (EDT), TheGremlin

[]

Post by Shadow

Post by TheGremlin
The dell password setting u mentioned has a backdoor to it. Theres
a "master" password based on your service id tag. With the right
software or a friendly Dell technician you can use the master
password to get in and remove the previously set password without
having to know what it was.

True. I had to resort to a third party "master password
remover" to unlock a Dell which was given to my sister and she gave to
me. Otherwise I couldn't install XP on it.

What was the remover? Was it freeware, or if not what did it cost?

Post by Shadow
On the upside, that laptop still works. It's an i7 from circa
2010.
[]'s

My 8x-yo friend has now had a Dell laptop (W7), which I obtained from
ebay for her so not new then, for at least a couple of years - may not
seem long, but her previous two laptops (not Dells) died mysteriously
(just died totally).

[Char Jackson]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 14:54:56 -0400, Paul <***@needed.invalid> wrote:

<...>

Post by Paul
That's why I do all my computing with the Celeron 300 and 440BX
chipset. Because all it did, was be a computer. It had no
pretenses to being an Internet Poker Machine.

I had a Celeron 300 and a 44BX mobo from Abit, probably 25 years ago. The
first thing I did was bump the Celeron to 450. I can't imagine trying to
use that hardware today.

[Paul]

Post by Char Jackson
<...>

Post by Paul
That's why I do all my computing with the Celeron 300 and 440BX
chipset. Because all it did, was be a computer. It had no
pretenses to being an Internet Poker Machine.

I had a Celeron 300 and a 44BX mobo from Abit, probably 25 years ago. The
first thing I did was bump the Celeron to 450. I can't imagine trying to
use that hardware today.

What's funny is, if you do a memory bandwidth measurement
(like with memtest), it only measures "300MB/sec" and slower
than a modern SSD :-) Now, that's pathetic.

The 300 --> 450 thing was the "free overclock", because
the cacheless Celeron would do that without any voltage
modification. I ran mine for another 10 minutes that way
and turned it back down. With the hardware bottlenecks of
the day, who would even know it was running 450.

I had a similar experience with my AthlonXP. I turned up
the clock on it, and... couldn't feel or see a difference.
Turned it back down again. Another case of "bus bottleneck
ruins fun".

Paul

[David E. Ross]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary laptop is a
Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've had absolutely no
issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell laptop. I've never used a
Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one, the
speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since then, we use
external speakers, which is fine because the laptop rarely moves, and a USB
WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade, since it covers both the 2.4
and the 5GHz bands, whereas the internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I bought a Dell Inspiron 660 in 2013. It still works great.

[David E. Ross]

Post by David E. Ross

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

I know this is a "I hate Dell" thread, but my personal/primary laptop is a
Dell Inspiron 15R SE 7520, bought in early 2013. I've had absolutely no
issues with it and would gladly buy another Dell laptop. I've never used a
Dell desktop, so I don't know about that.
My other laptop is an HP dv7-6185, bought in mid-2009. On that one, the
speakers and the WiFi module died a couple years ago. Since then, we use
external speakers, which is fine because the laptop rarely moves, and a USB
WiFi dongle. The WiFi dongle is an upgrade, since it covers both the 2.4
and the 5GHz bands, whereas the internal WiFi only covered 2.4GHz.

I bought a Dell Inspiron 660 in 2013. It still works great.

While other Inspiron versions are listed as impacted, I noticed that my
Ispiron 660 is not on the list. Does that mean I do not have to do
anything to protect my PC?

[Ken Blake]

Post by Wolffan

Post by ray

Post by Wolffan
There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop & laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Simple enough solution - don't get another Dell.

I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.
Certain members of my family have looked at the nice low price and bought
Dells, against my advice; only one is still operational, a laptop purchased
in 2018 and whose battery is at 81% of design capacity, and whose hard drive
was replaced by a SSD. And, yes, the dead drive died due to heat. Dell kills
drives by overheating them, laptop, desktop, whatever.
I hate Dell.

My wife has a low price Dell desktop, which she's had for six or seven
years. It's been fine and meets her very modest needs. She's never had a
problem with it.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2021 at 11:21:45, Wolffan <***@zoho.com> wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
[]

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.

[]

Post by Wolffan
I hate Dell.

When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

I ask because friends have a SFF Dell in which two (non-Dell) drives
have failed, with conventional symptoms - just got slower and slower.
Rest of machine has been fine.

The general public tends to regard Dell as a good make (especially for
laptops); industry seems to use a lot of them, so price/reliability
can't be _that_ bad - industry doesn't buy cheap after a while. Though
does tend to only want 3-5 years. Refurbishers seem to have almost
entirely Dell and HP systems.

Among home builders/tweakers like us, the general moan I've been aware
of until this thread has been that Dell do their own thing - BIOS,
parts/layout (the latter meaning you often couldn't fit standard parts
because they wouldn't fit); these aspects wouldn't bother the general
public. (And I think the parts/layout aspect at least must have improved
somewhat, otherwise I can't see how refurbishers could base their
offerings on Dell so much.)

[Wolffan]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.

[]

Post by Wolffan
I hate Dell.

When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I ask because friends have a SFF Dell in which two (non-Dell) drives
have failed, with conventional symptoms - just got slower and slower.
Rest of machine has been fine.
The general public tends to regard Dell as a good make (especially for
laptops); industry seems to use a lot of them, so price/reliability
can't be _that_ bad - industry doesn't buy cheap after a while. Though
does tend to only want 3-5 years. Refurbishers seem to have almost
entirely Dell and HP systems.

oh, they’ll last 2-3 years. And then die. We had a 5 year refresh cycle.
Typically we’d replace the HDD at least once per machine. One machine went
through three drives in 5 years.

We stopped buying Dells.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Among home builders/tweakers like us, the general moan I've been aware
of until this thread has been that Dell do their own thing - BIOS,
parts/layout (the latter meaning you often couldn't fit standard parts
because they wouldn't fit); these aspects wouldn't bother the general
public. (And I think the parts/layout aspect at least must have improved
somewhat, otherwise I can't see how refurbishers could base their
offerings on Dell so much.)

Dell liked to use non-standard mobos and power supplies. Dell BIOSes
(depending on the system) also might not support many PCI cards; you might
have to buy a card from an approved list. We had a few guys in graphics who
were dead set against Macs; we gave them Dells, configured with heavy-duty
graphic cards... which displayed 1024x768 or even 800x600. It turned out that
the graphic cards were not supported by the Dell mobo. Replacing them with
supported cards would have given the required capability. Dell wanted so much
for the cards that the machines would have cost more than comparable Macs;
officially, we’d gone with Dell to save money. (Yes, really, using stuff
off the approved list boosted the overall price above what Apple wanted.
Thank you, Dell, for trying to gouge in a way obvious even to accountants.)
The boys got Macs and learned to live with it. The Dells were stripped of the
graphic cards and sent off elsewhere, and the graphic cards returned.

Note that Dell was not alone in the above; HP pulled the same shit.

[Snit]

Post by Wolffan

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.

[]

Post by Wolffan
I hate Dell.

When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I ask because friends have a SFF Dell in which two (non-Dell) drives
have failed, with conventional symptoms - just got slower and slower.
Rest of machine has been fine.
The general public tends to regard Dell as a good make (especially for
laptops); industry seems to use a lot of them, so price/reliability
can't be _that_ bad - industry doesn't buy cheap after a while. Though
does tend to only want 3-5 years. Refurbishers seem to have almost
entirely Dell and HP systems.

oh, they’ll last 2-3 years. And then die. We had a 5 year refresh cycle.
Typically we’d replace the HDD at least once per machine. One machine went
through three drives in 5 years.
We stopped buying Dells.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Among home builders/tweakers like us, the general moan I've been aware
of until this thread has been that Dell do their own thing - BIOS,
parts/layout (the latter meaning you often couldn't fit standard parts
because they wouldn't fit); these aspects wouldn't bother the general
public. (And I think the parts/layout aspect at least must have improved
somewhat, otherwise I can't see how refurbishers could base their
offerings on Dell so much.)

Dell liked to use non-standard mobos and power supplies. Dell BIOSes
(depending on the system) also might not support many PCI cards; you might
have to buy a card from an approved list. We had a few guys in graphics who
were dead set against Macs; we gave them Dells, configured with heavy-duty
graphic cards... which displayed 1024x768 or even 800x600. It turned out that
the graphic cards were not supported by the Dell mobo. Replacing them with
supported cards would have given the required capability. Dell wanted so much
for the cards that the machines would have cost more than comparable Macs;
officially, we’d gone with Dell to save money. (Yes, really, using stuff
off the approved list boosted the overall price above what Apple wanted.
Thank you, Dell, for trying to gouge in a way obvious even to accountants.)
The boys got Macs and learned to live with it. The Dells were stripped of the
graphic cards and sent off elsewhere, and the graphic cards returned.
Note that Dell was not alone in the above; HP pulled the same shit.

Often when you compared similar hardware and comparable software Macs were
less expensive than Dells (any many other OEMs). What you could not do with
Macs is leave stuff out. If you were getting an iMac you were getting a
webcam, even if you did not want one or wanted a higher end one; you were
getting a high end monitor even if you wanted a lower end one; you were
getting an IR port even if you did not need it; etc.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Wolffan

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.

[]

Post by Wolffan
I hate Dell.

When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

There are two Dell computers here: my wife's desktop (5-6 years old) and
my laptop (10 years old?). Neither of them has ever had a hard drive
replaced or has had any other problems. We've had other in the past
without problems.

I don't claim that Dell makes the world's best computers, but in my
experience they are nowhere near as bad as you and others in this thread
have made them out to be. They are inexpensive, and usually good value.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Wolffan

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wolffan
I haven’t bought a Dell for personal use for over 20 years. I convinced the
company to not buy Dells by stacking up a few of the many hard drives killed
by heat in two generations of Dell ‘business’ systems. After accounting
saw just how many dead drives we’d accumulated, Dell was off the approved
purchasing lisy, thank you, Jesus. Those who had to deal with Optiplex towers
and minitowers a decade ago will know exactly what I’m talking about.

[]

Post by Wolffan
I hate Dell.

When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

There are two Dell computers here: my wife's desktop (5-6 years old) and
my laptop (10 years old?).

Thinking about the laptop, it's probably closer to 15 years old.

Post by Ken Blake
Neither of them has ever had a hard drive
replaced or has had any other problems. We've had other in the past
without problems.
I don't claim that Dell makes the world's best computers, but in my
experience they are nowhere near as bad as you and others in this thread
have made them out to be. They are inexpensive, and usually good value.

I forgot to mention that my current desktop computer has two 24" Dell
monitors. I've had those for about ten years. I like them a lot and I've
never had any problems with them either.

[AJL]

Post by Ken Blake
I don't claim that Dell makes the world's best computers, but in my
experience they are nowhere near as bad as you and others in this
thread have made them out to be. They are inexpensive, and usually
good value.

I have a 13 incher. Dell laptop I mean. I just got it last December. So
far my only complaint is that some surfaces I use it on block the
bottom vents causing the fan to run. Otherwise the fan never runs. I
have been changing to a flat surface when the fan starts out of an
abundance of caution for my new toy but that's a PITA. So from now on
it's sink or swim on any surface. I'll report back if there's a heat
failure. Course with the Dell broke I'll have to use my Chromebook which
BTW has no annoying vents or fan... (Yes that was tongue in cheek, the
CB has about half the power of the Dell.)

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

Post by Wolffan

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

Ah, basically it just fries the electronics, by the sound of it. My
friends' ones, the drives just got slower and slower, which in my
experience means increasing numbers of bad sectors, so it maybe wasn't
heat death.
[]

[Paul]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wolffan

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

Ah, basically it just fries the electronics, by the sound of it. My
friends' ones, the drives just got slower and slower, which in my
experience means increasing numbers of bad sectors, so it maybe wasn't
heat death.
[]

Do you remember the Capacitor Plague ?

There was one model of Dell, with a 99% failure rate.
That's a virtual guarantee the motherboard would go
out on it.

And you couldn't shop on Ebay and pick up a motherboard
from there to fix it, because that motherboard might
already be dead or in the process of dying.

On some of the other Dells, there was fallout, but at
a lesser rate. Still not a good situation.

These were defective electrolytics, missing the "stabilizer"
in the electrolyte composition. Someone stole an electrolyte
formula, but missed some of the chemicals. The end result,
was a number of shady firms started making caps where the
electrolyte could eat right through the metal sleeving.

To repair the 99% Dell, you need the motherboard to be
"re-capped". Selecting and buying the caps, is only
a small fraction of the "fun ahead". You know how hard
electrolytics are to get out of PCBs, and in this case,
computer motherboards are not very good, as PCB tech
goes. The fillets are easily ripped right out of the board,
ruining the board. You can get copper trace repair kits,
but I don't know of a way to do a decent job of fixing a
fillet. (Because, on a multilayer board, the fillet
contacts inner layers and you can't repair tracks on
those.)

In any case, nobody really wants to re-cap boards that
were never designed for maintainability. We had "beautiful"
design rules at my first employer - you would have no
problem re-capping their products. The caps just "fall out".
But hardly anyone else knows how to do that. They all
rely on interference fit technique, which sucks (5 thou
clearance between cap leg and hole diameter).

With capacitor plague, sometimes there is a puff of gray
smoke, out the fan vent, a few days before it tips over.
And that smoke is coming from a dried out cap.

The problem with cap failures, is collateral damage.
A cap failure can cause an inductor to char, or a
MOSFET to burn badly enough, you can't read the part number
off it. If a board is going to fail, you want to catch
the problem before it burns. If you're early, only the
caps need to be replaced. If you're late, it's a forensic
electronics exercise (find picture of good unit, estimate
what the part number is).

Paul

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by Paul

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wolffan

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
When it kills HDs by heat, what are the symptoms - do they just die
suddenly, or become erratic, or do they fail by increasing numbers of
bad sectors just making them slower and slower?

they become erratic, and then on booting the computer displays ‘Hard Drive
Not Found’. If you remove the drive and attach it to a SATA to USB adapter,
the drive does not show up on a Windows machine. It shows on a Mac, but has a
volume size of zero, and can’t be formatted or partitioned. Basically,
it’s a paperweight.

Ah, basically it just fries the electronics, by the sound of it. My
friends' ones, the drives just got slower and slower, which in my
experience means increasing numbers of bad sectors, so it maybe wasn't
heat death.
[]

Do you remember the Capacitor Plague ?
There was one model of Dell, with a 99% failure rate.
That's a virtual guarantee the motherboard would go
out on it.
And you couldn't shop on Ebay and pick up a motherboard
from there to fix it, because that motherboard might
already be dead or in the process of dying.
On some of the other Dells, there was fallout, but at
a lesser rate. Still not a good situation.
These were defective electrolytics, missing the "stabilizer"
in the electrolyte composition. Someone stole an electrolyte
formula, but missed some of the chemicals. The end result,
was a number of shady firms started making caps where the
electrolyte could eat right through the metal sleeving.
To repair the 99% Dell, you need the motherboard to be
"re-capped". Selecting and buying the caps, is only
a small fraction of the "fun ahead". You know how hard
electrolytics are to get out of PCBs, and in this case,
computer motherboards are not very good, as PCB tech
goes. The fillets are easily ripped right out of the board,
ruining the board. You can get copper trace repair kits,
but I don't know of a way to do a decent job of fixing a
fillet. (Because, on a multilayer board, the fillet
contacts inner layers and you can't repair tracks on
those.)
In any case, nobody really wants to re-cap boards that
were never designed for maintainability. We had "beautiful"
design rules at my first employer - you would have no
problem re-capping their products. The caps just "fall out".
But hardly anyone else knows how to do that. They all
rely on interference fit technique, which sucks (5 thou
clearance between cap leg and hole diameter).
With capacitor plague, sometimes there is a puff of gray
smoke, out the fan vent, a few days before it tips over.
And that smoke is coming from a dried out cap.
The problem with cap failures, is collateral damage.
A cap failure can cause an inductor to char, or a
MOSFET to burn badly enough, you can't read the part number
off it. If a board is going to fail, you want to catch
the problem before it burns. If you're early, only the
caps need to be replaced. If you're late, it's a forensic
electronics exercise (find picture of good unit, estimate
what the part number is).
   Paul

I've only had 1 bad cap board, an Abit, can't remember the model number,
ordered a cap kit from Mouser for abut $18 then spent a half a day
recapping it, A bitch of a job but it worked fine after till I sold
that PC.

Rene

[Char Jackson]

Post by Paul
Do you remember the Capacitor Plague ?

I do, but the problem with telling that kind of story is that people who
are reading casually might think that there's still a 'capacitor plague' or
that it affected one PC maker more than others. Both of those premises are
essentially false.

<snip>

[Paul]

Post by Char Jackson

Post by Paul
Do you remember the Capacitor Plague ?

I do, but the problem with telling that kind of story is that people who
are reading casually might think that there's still a 'capacitor plague' or
that it affected one PC maker more than others. Both of those premises are
essentially false.
<snip>

That's why the sentence begins "do you remember",
as in the past tense.

Checking the tops of caps, remains a debug step.
Especially if you've seen a puff of gray smoke
go out the back of a desktop at start.

Paul

[Rene Lamontagne]

Post by ray

Post by Wolffan
There’s a severe bug in Dell’s Support Assist app, a Dell ‘security’
program bundled with 129 Dell desktop &  laptop systems. Approximately 30
million machines may be vulnerable.
https://eclypsium.com/2021/06/24/biosdisconnect/
I now have yet another reason to hate bloody Dell.

Simple enough solution - don't get another Dell.

My first PC was a Delll 'Dimension XPS 100, 700 Mhz CPU, 16 MB of
memory, Creative soundblaster card, Number9 video card, a Travan 1000
tape drive and a set of Altec Lansing ACS-31 speakers with subwoofer
I Paid $4100.00 cdn for the system in 1995, It was a great system for
the time and never had a moments trouble , I sold it in 2000, and
started building my own systems since then, my last 2 builds were last year.

Rene

[Java Jive]

Post by Rene Lamontagne

Post by ray
Simple enough solution - don't get another Dell.

My first PC was a Delll 'Dimension XPS 100, 700 Mhz CPU, 16 MB of
memory, Creative soundblaster card, Number9 video card, a Travan 1000
tape drive and a set of Altec Lansing ACS-31 speakers with subwoofer
I Paid $4100.00 cdn for the system in 1995, It was a great system for
the time and never had a moments trouble , I sold it in 2000, and
started building my own systems since then, my last 2 builds were last year.

Yes, and no. I have little experience of Dell desktops/towers, because
my last firm before I retired used Compaqs, then HPs after the merger,
Thinkpads for laptops. However, since then I've owned a number of Dell
laptops, and most have been mostly fine.

My first was a Latitude D610, which is still working, though its
original IDE HD has died a year or so ago, and given the difficulty of
finding a reliable replacement, it runs now off a SATA one in the CD/DVD
drive bay. The problem with this is that even though the internal drive
has been removed from the BIOS boot order, it still hangs on boot while
it looks for one, and I have to press <F1> when inevitably it fails.
Not very bright programming of the BIOS there certainly, but at least it
still works. I originally bought it to digitise my vinyl collection,
because the best HiFi was downstairs while all my computing stuff was in
my office upstairs. I plugged the amp into a USB Terratec sound card,
and sent each digitisation upstairs via WiFi when it was done. After
some initial teething problems the system worked very well.

The next one was the sole exception, a second-hand/used Dell Precision
M4300 which had a major design fault in that the battery tended to hang
out of the bottom a little way, so if you picked it up to move it and
touched the battery, you'd disconnect the power momentarily and the
machine would hang or reboot. It also developed a fault with the
underside RAM socket, so I could only put 2GB in it, and finally the
video chip blew, which a search then revealed to be the most common
cause of death in these machines, nearly all seemed to die this way. I
don't agree with advice above to ignore Dells completely, but that
particular model is certainly one to avoid completely.

Confusingly however, Dell Precision M6300s, 6 not 4, are fine. I have
two of these, one running XP, the other W7, and both Ubuntu also. They
have nice big screens, and, if a little slow for W7 by today's
standards, so far have been very reliable. They are quite heavy though,
perhaps more of a luggable than a portable.

And I'm typing this on a Dell Inspiron laptop bought in 2012/3 which is
still my main PC, and has been fine. One thing that struck me as being
dumb about this model series at the time I purchased this one, is that
they did an HD screen version, but the optical drive was not Blu-Ray!
Duh! Given that streaming was far less common at the time, what was the
point of having an HD screen if you couldn't play HD material in the
optical drive! So obviously I saved some money by buying the normal
screen version, but my saving was Dell's loss.

There are other criticisms in the thread, for example about driver
downloads. The different models vary, and the similarity of names
between radically different hardware, exemplified by the Precision M4300
(really bad) and M6300 (really quite decent) models also makes getting
the right drivers confusingly difficult. I find the best way is to use
the service tag on the label underneath, which IIRC can also be read in
the BIOS if the label has been removed or become unreadable. However,
this doesn't always find all the drivers, and occasionally I've found
yellow question marks in Device Manager requiring searching Dell's site
to find the missing driver, which is certainly a PITA, and, given the
correct service tag, really shouldn't be necessary.