Discussion:
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
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Bob J Jones
2018-04-29 20:56:00 UTC
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What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?

Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?

There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.

What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality (due to
the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is just not
available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about Win10 gripes.

Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about Windows 10,
since we all know that list is a mile long already.

What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
--
This TECHNICAL thread is not meant as a gripe thread about Windows 10!
mike
2018-04-29 21:28:54 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
1) buy a new computer.
Joe average is unwilling to jump thru hoops to get a lesser OS on his
new computer.
2) stay connected.
Society is caught in an endless loop. Desire to (re)broadcast every
thought of OTHER people drives software to do that which
drives the desire to use it which...
3) stay up to date.
Eventually, support for older OS's is no longer supported.
Move on or get left behind. Nobody wants that...

You're asking the wrong people.
Anybody reading this already has the information required to do whatever
they want to do.
For the vast majority of computer owners, it makes no difference at all.
They take whatever MS offers and they get on with posting cat pictures.
Your opinions make no difference to anybody.
Microsoft will continue to do whatever makes money for microsoft.
What we can or can't do makes no difference to anybody. The list
provides no new options to anyone.

Stated another way,
What are you gonna do with the list when you compile it?
Post by Bob J Jones
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality (due to
the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is just not
available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about Win10 gripes.
Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about Windows 10,
since we all know that list is a mile long already.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
This TECHNICAL thread is not meant as a gripe thread about Windows 10!
Good luck with that...
Rene Lamontagne
2018-04-29 21:40:14 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by mike
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
1) buy a new computer.
Joe average is unwilling to jump thru hoops to get a lesser OS on his
new computer.
2) stay connected.
Society is caught in an endless loop.  Desire to (re)broadcast every
thought of OTHER people drives software to do that which
drives the desire to use it which...
3) stay up to date.
Eventually, support for older OS's is no longer supported.
Move on or get left behind.  Nobody wants that...
You're asking the wrong people.
Anybody reading this already has the information required to do whatever
they want to do.
For the vast majority of computer owners, it makes no difference at all.
They take whatever MS offers and they get on with posting cat pictures.
Your opinions make no difference to anybody.
Microsoft will continue to do whatever makes money for microsoft.
What we can or can't do makes no difference to anybody.  The list
provides no new options to anyone.
Stated another way,
What are you gonna do with the list when you compile it?
Post by Bob J Jones
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical
functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality (due to
the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is just not
available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about Win10 gripes.
Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about Windows 10,
since we all know that list is a mile long already.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
This TECHNICAL thread is not meant as a gripe thread about Windows 10!
Good luck with that...
Windows 10 keeps this newsgroup alive. :-)

Rene
Rene Lamontagne
2018-04-29 21:42:30 UTC
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Post by mike
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
1) buy a new computer.
Joe average is unwilling to jump thru hoops to get a lesser OS on his
new computer.
2) stay connected.
Society is caught in an endless loop.  Desire to (re)broadcast every
thought of OTHER people drives software to do that which
drives the desire to use it which...
3) stay up to date.
Eventually, support for older OS's is no longer supported.
Move on or get left behind.  Nobody wants that...
You're asking the wrong people.
Anybody reading this already has the information required to do whatever
they want to do.
For the vast majority of computer owners, it makes no difference at all.
They take whatever MS offers and they get on with posting cat pictures.
Your opinions make no difference to anybody.
Microsoft will continue to do whatever makes money for microsoft.
What we can or can't do makes no difference to anybody.  The list
provides no new options to anyone.
Stated another way,
What are you gonna do with the list when you compile it?
Post by Bob J Jones
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical
functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality (due to
the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is just not
available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about Win10 gripes.
Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about Windows 10,
since we all know that list is a mile long already.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
This TECHNICAL thread is not meant as a gripe thread about Windows 10!
Good luck with that...
Windows 10 keeps this newsgroup alive.  :-)
Rene
OOPs wrong newsgroup.

Rene
Martin Edwards
2018-04-30 06:40:41 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by mike
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
1) buy a new computer.
Joe average is unwilling to jump thru hoops to get a lesser OS on his
new computer.
2) stay connected.
Society is caught in an endless loop.  Desire to (re)broadcast every
thought of OTHER people drives software to do that which
drives the desire to use it which...
3) stay up to date.
Eventually, support for older OS's is no longer supported.
Move on or get left behind.  Nobody wants that...
You're asking the wrong people.
Anybody reading this already has the information required to do whatever
they want to do.
For the vast majority of computer owners, it makes no difference at all.
They take whatever MS offers and they get on with posting cat pictures.
Your opinions make no difference to anybody.
Microsoft will continue to do whatever makes money for microsoft.
What we can or can't do makes no difference to anybody.  The list
provides no new options to anyone.
Stated another way,
What are you gonna do with the list when you compile it?
Post by Bob J Jones
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical
functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality (due to
the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is just not
available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about Win10 gripes.
Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about Windows 10,
since we all know that list is a mile long already.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
This TECHNICAL thread is not meant as a gripe thread about Windows 10!
Good luck with that...
Windows 10 keeps this newsgroup alive.  :-)
Rene
With refugees from the Hall of the Mountain King.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 02:28:59 UTC
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Post by mike
What are you gonna do with the list when you compile it?
I work in a field where the customers are stuck on one release
and they won't get off that release, even though we want them to
because (obviously) we make money when they buy new software.

We do not have a subscription model.
We give a 99-year license.

I just want to understand more about the delta in functionality between
Windows 10 and the prior releases.

Unfortunately, your response didn't add any value whatsoever to that
question, but I didn't expect everyone to understand the question (and I
knew it would turn into a Windows 10 gripes because people don't read the
question - they just respond to one or two keywords the way they *always*
respond - so no value is added by those people).

But some people do read and comprehend the question.
I'm hoping to get answers from *them* which are useful.

Hence the question...
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
mike
2018-04-30 04:07:34 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
Post by mike
What are you gonna do with the list when you compile it?
I work in a field where the customers are stuck on one release
and they won't get off that release, even though we want them to
because (obviously) we make money when they buy new software.
Thanks for answering that question.
If I understand correctly, you want to sell something to a customer.
Post by Bob J Jones
We do not have a subscription model.
We give a 99-year license.
I'd like to hear more about that. A 99-year 'lease' makes sense
on real estate that isn't on the coastline, but not much else.

Why would anybody buy a 99-year license on anything computer related?
But I digress...

If you wanna sell something, you need to present it from the customer's
frame of reference as a value that exceeds the cost. Be aware, that
the person who uses the value may not be the same person authorizing
purchase
of that value. Both points must be considered.
You get that information by talking directly with both factions.
A survey of a dozen denizens in a contentious newsgroup
is largely irrelevant.

The value to the customer is not in the features of the OS.
The value to the customer is the ability of the APPLICATION
to facilitate the task. In many cases, less intervention by the OS
is better. By that measure alone, win10 is a non-starter.

There is another significant bit of info that can be summarized as,
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
It costs a lot of money to retrain staff.
Errors are expensive.
You have to overcome that inertia.

I spent a lot of years in engineering management.
We'd go ask marketing what they wanted in a new product.
They'd go ask sales what customers wanted.
The answers were always "more" and "cheaper".

The way you get the info you need is to send an engineer
who is familiar with the job being done and capable of extrapolating
the customer visit into what they need and what they will likely
need in the future. The customer may not even understand that.
Those engineers are RARE, but when you have one, you can make
great new products that customers want.
Post by Bob J Jones
I just want to understand more about the delta in functionality between
Windows 10 and the prior releases.
I suggest that you don't care about delta in functionality of the OS.
You need to care about how you can leverage the new OS as a solution
to some problem or opportunity that the user can exploit.
You won't find that here. It's hard enough to get the customer to
verbalize it.
You can be sure that management will be far more interested in the
ability to reduce the errors in order processing than in the ability
of the user to post pictures of her cat...or to watch youtube videos
in a window.
Post by Bob J Jones
Unfortunately, your response didn't add any value whatsoever to that
question,
I'd have to agree.
Asking the right question is the key to finding the right answer.
That's why I expended a lot of effort to help.

but I didn't expect everyone to understand the question (and I
Post by Bob J Jones
knew it would turn into a Windows 10 gripes because people don't read the
question - they just respond to one or two keywords the way they *always*
respond - so no value is added by those people).
But some people do read and comprehend the question.
I'm hoping to get answers from *them* which are useful.
Hence the question...
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Wolf K
2018-04-30 14:25:05 UTC
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On 2018-04-30 00:07, mike wrote:
[...]
Post by mike
The way you get the info you need is to send an engineer
who is familiar with the job being done and capable of extrapolating
the customer visit into what they need and what they will likely
need in the future.  The customer may not even understand that.
Those engineers are RARE, but when you have one, you can make
great new products that customers want.
[...]

I know this is off-topic, and won't "add value", but I can't resist.
(I've changed the Subject as fair warning):

Context: I started out to be an an engineer (2 years). I eventually
shifted (drifted?) into English. Taught evening classes. One of my best
students ever was a guy who'd dropped out of Engineering for a year to
earn enough money to have a decent life-style when he dropped back into
the program. He became, I think, one of those RARE engineers who
understood that studying literature is essential if you want to succeed
with people.

Reading literature trains the imagination. Every poem, every story,
every play, is someone else's take on the world. As you become more
proficient in reading the stuff, you also become more proficient in
imagining what it's like to be another person. That is the essential
skill for sales. Sad fact is, even among sales people that skill is
rare. They often know how to con you, but that's not the same as
understanding you.

BTW, Bob, thanks very much or raising the original question. So far, the
answers you've garnered do not persuade me to switch to W10.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
JJ
2018-04-30 15:00:16 UTC
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Post by Wolf K
BTW, Bob, thanks very much or raising the original question. So far, the
answers you've garnered do not persuade me to switch to W10.
It's actually a good thread to show that Windows 10 doesn't offer much.
Especially for those who already use Windows 8.x. After all, Windows 10 is
basically an NT 6.4. It doesn't have major changes in comparison with
earlier NT 6.x versions.

I don't really care what version number it claims to be. I only sees it as
an attempt to catch up with Mac OS X's version number. Just like Firefox
trying to catch up Chrome's version number. Trying not to look inferior to
the competitor.
mechanic
2018-04-30 10:55:08 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Talk to Cortana?
Bob J Jones
2018-05-01 06:09:20 UTC
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Post by mechanic
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Talk to Cortana?
This is good as I had thought Cortana was on Windows 7, but it's not.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_programs/cortana-for-windows-7/808500a6-3607-4913-a234-649ae4ce9ae0

So here's the current list of what you can do, by virtue of the OS alone,
on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows 7 or Windows XP...

1. Windows Store apps
2. Cortana searches
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access 2TB of RAM (instead of 512GB, 192GB, & 128GB previously)
5. HiDPI scale text & GUI to 200% (not just 150% previously)
6. Full-screen console mode
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

Is there anything else?
What is the priority order?
mechanic
2018-05-01 10:05:51 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by mechanic
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Talk to Cortana?
This is good as I had thought Cortana was on Windows 7, but it's not.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_programs/cortana-for-windows-7/808500a6-3607-4913-a234-649ae4ce9ae0
So here's the current list of what you can do, by virtue of the OS alone,
on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows 7 or Windows XP...
1. Windows Store apps
2. Cortana searches
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access 2TB of RAM (instead of 512GB, 192GB, & 128GB previously)
5. HiDPI scale text & GUI to 200% (not just 150% previously)
6. Full-screen console mode
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Is there anything else?
What is the priority order?
Timeline?
Ian Jackson
2018-05-01 12:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mechanic
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by mechanic
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Talk to Cortana?
This is good as I had thought Cortana was on Windows 7, but it's not.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-windows_pro
grams/cortana-for-windows-7/808500a6-3607-4913-a234-649ae4ce9ae0
So here's the current list of what you can do, by virtue of the OS alone,
on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows 7 or Windows XP...
1. Windows Store apps
2. Cortana searches
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access 2TB of RAM (instead of 512GB, 192GB, & 128GB previously)
5. HiDPI scale text & GUI to 200% (not just 150% previously)
6. Full-screen console mode
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Is there anything else?
What is the priority order?
Timeline?
Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
7?" ?
--
Ian
Mayayana
2018-05-01 13:00:00 UTC
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"Ian Jackson" <***@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote

| Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
| Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
| 7?" ?

Have you seen Cortana?

Loading Image...

She wants you. She's wet for you. And she's
wearing only the skimpiest, sheer, skintight,
circuitboard nightie from Tron.

Can you *really* be happy with Bob the
Nervous Paperclip when you know that Cortana
lives in new Win10 computers? :)
Ian Jackson
2018-05-01 14:50:40 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
| Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
| 7?" ?
Have you seen Cortana?
https://www.halopedia.org/File:CortanaH4_render.jpg
She looks distinctly unhealthy. My father drummed into me that I should
not associate with ladies like that.
Post by Mayayana
She wants you. She's wet for you. And she's
wearing only the skimpiest, sheer, skintight,
circuitboard nightie from Tron.
Is she any relation of Ford Cortina?
Post by Mayayana
Can you *really* be happy with Bob the
Nervous Paperclip when you know that Cortana
lives in new Win10 computers? :)
I haven't seem Bob for years. I think the last time I saw him was on
YouTube.
--
Ian
R.Wieser
2018-05-01 14:00:45 UTC
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Ian,
Post by Ian Jackson
Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows 7?"
?
Nope. The correct question is:

"What does your current OS *not* do/give you that you want to leave it
behind". Full stop.

The problem is that the answer most always comes down to "but the newer one
has shiny stuff that I simply must have", which ofcourse fully ignores the
question ... (but don't try to tell them that :-) ).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
mechanic
2018-05-01 17:39:24 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
7?" ?
Steve Jobs on user input on design questions:

“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's
not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want
before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked
customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster
horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them.
That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read
things that are not yet on the page.”

also:

“It’s not the customer’s job to know what they want”
Doomsdrzej
2018-05-01 18:25:03 UTC
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Post by Ian Jackson
Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
7?" ?
“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's
not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want
before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked
customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster
horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them.
That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read
things that are not yet on the page.”
“It´s not the customer´s job to know what they want”
Steve Jobs was right. Gnome 3 is actually a good demonstration of a
design team providing a user interface you didn't know you wanted. It
works beautifully and introduced a number of ideas that everyone else
seemed to copy.
Shadow
2018-05-01 20:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by Ian Jackson
Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
7?" ?
“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's
not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want
before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked
customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster
horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them.
That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read
things that are not yet on the page.”
“It´s not the customer´s job to know what they want”
Steve Jobs was right. Gnome 3 is actually a good demonstration of a
design team providing a user interface you didn't know you wanted. It
works beautifully and introduced a number of ideas that everyone else
seemed to copy.
And is the reason I still use a Gnome 2-based interface.
It just works.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
mike
2018-05-02 07:31:00 UTC
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Post by mechanic
Post by Ian Jackson
Should the question not be "What do you feel you really NEED to do on
Windows 10 that you miss not being able to do on Windows XP or Windows
7?" ?
“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's
not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want
before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked
customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster
horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them.
That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read
things that are not yet on the page.”
“It’s not the customer’s job to know what they want”
Yep.
Second best is empathizing with the customer.
Asking a newsgroup doesn't even show up on the list.

Windows 10 should strike fear into anybody trying to support something,
anything, based on it.
I have a friend who loses all his games every time win10 updates.
I just installed the latest update..."8Gadget is not supported and has
been removed."
I had to go get it again.
It pisses me off.
But, for a customer who only wants the 'capability' you sold him,
and was promised a99-year license, it's a nightmare...for YOU.

"Sorry mam, I understand your house is on fire...we'll dispatch the fire
truck
as soon as we untangle the latest windows 10 update...sorry for any
inconvenience...
Sears is having a great sale on water hoses, hold while I transfer you
to them?"
Mayayana
2018-05-02 12:21:20 UTC
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"mechanic" <***@example.net> wrote

| Steve Jobs on user input on design questions:
|
| ŽSome people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's
| not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want
| before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked
| customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster
| horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them.
| That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read
| things that are not yet on the page.¡
|
| also:
|
| ŽItÿs not the customerÿs job to know what they want¡

Steve Jobs also told the architect of his space donut
office building that the windows shouldn't open:
If you let people open things it only allows them to
screw things up.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all


Which is why we're here talking about Windows
preferences and not talking about how to switch to
an overpriced, glue-encased, kiddie-UI, spyware,
restricted Apple product.

The man was a salesman who dreamed of being
a Zen master, which is very different from being
an insightful designer. By many accounts he was a
psychopath -- a person with no empathy for others
and with no shame. Psychopaths often seem
charming and clever because of that lack of shame.
Which says something about the average person:
When we meet someone who's not embarassed
about themselves we assume they must be a
highly evolved "winner". Jobs managed to convince
a lot of intelligent people that to do as he says is
to be an independent, creative thinker. (Interestingly,
it seems to more often be the intelligent, sophisticated
people who are suckered by Jobs. Less sophisticated
people are not so impressed by zennie UIs with
jelly buttons that look "just so".

It's true that people often don't really know what
they want, or can't put words to it, but a good designer
empathizes and uplifts, without exploiting. Design
should be art, not marketing. There's a difference
between cooking someone's favorite foods well,
vs offering a giant, delicious cheesecake to a grossly
obese person. Jobs's designs were never edifying or
empathizing. They were candy for fat people.
Entertainment options for spoiled consumers. Which
is why the company is so ridiculously successful.

I'm not sure all of that applies here, though. While
people often don't know what they want, this group
is comprised mostly of techie people who think about
these things, do work on computers, and know the
details of the system. I think it's a very useful question
to ask people what they want and what they don't want
to give up. But I guess sometimes it does have to be
interpreted. If someone says they want a faster
computer that may mean their computer is too slow.
Or it might just mean that they've been reading too many
ads for new computers and *assume* that newer is
faster, and that their computer must be slow. Or it might
mean they use a program that they find confusing and
mistakenly think that a newer version will someone
function more efficiently.

I once had a friend who asked if I could fix her slow
computer. I did what I could, cleaned up, got rid of a sleazy
music player.... But in general the system was in good
shape. I told her that. "Oh!", the woman said, "the
music player was the part we were having trouble with!
We love that music player. It just seemed like it had
become slow." So a "slow computer" problem was
probably actually a bad Internet connection problem and I
made the mistake of assuming she knew the difference.
I had deleted the only program they used!
nospam
2018-05-02 13:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
Steve Jobs also told the architect of his space donut
commercial office buildings normally have windows that do *not* open.

this is particularly true when they're floor to ceiling windows.

the rest of your grossly ignorant rambling snipped.
Paul
2018-05-02 14:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by nospam
Post by Mayayana
Steve Jobs also told the architect of his space donut
commercial office buildings normally have windows that do *not* open.
At the Foxconn plant, it was to keep staff from jumping out.

It was so bad there, they added nets outside the building.

https://gizmodo.com/5574993/foxconn-is-installing-safety-nets-on-buildings

(Foxconn now owns Belkin and Linksys.)

By keeping the windows closed, Jobs saved on netting. Clever :-)

Paul
mechanic
2018-05-02 15:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
While people often don't know what they want, this group is
comprised mostly of techie people who think about these things,
do work on computers, and know the details of the system.
On that point, I think this group is mainly comprised of people from
an older generation, who are retired with too much time on their
hands, and are afraid of the future. Thus they hark back to an
earlier time when they understood the technology. Unfortunately
since Win98 there have been ten Moore periods so things are a
thousand times smaller, quicker and more powerful than those days,
and the software struggles to keep up.
Andy Burns
2018-05-02 15:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mechanic
I think this group is mainly comprised of people from
an older generation, who are retired with too much time on their
hands, and are afraid of the future. Thus they hark back to an
earlier time when they understood the technology. Unfortunately
since Win98 there have been ten Moore periods so things are a
thousand times smaller, quicker and more powerful than those days,
and the software struggles to keep up.
ITYM despite the hardware being thousands of times smaller/quicker/more
powerful, they sob to think that software has managed to piss away all
those advantages, to leave a system that's basically no faster at doing
tasks than before ...
Ian Jackson
2018-05-02 15:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mechanic
While people often don't know what they want, this group is
comprised mostly of techie people who think about these things,
do work on computers, and know the details of the system.
On that point, I think this group is mainly comprised of people from
an older generation, who are retired with too much time on their
hands, and are afraid of the future.
"Too much time on their hands"? Are you joking? Most retired people will
tell you that they simply don't know how they ever used to find enough
time to go to work!
--
Ian
Doomsdrzej
2018-05-02 15:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 2 May 2018 08:21:20 -0400, "Mayayana"
|
| ´Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's
| not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want
| before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked
| customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster
| horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them.
| That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read
| things that are not yet on the page.¡
|
|
| ´Itÿs not the customerÿs job to know what they want¡
Steve Jobs also told the architect of his space donut
If you let people open things it only allows them to
screw things up.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all
He sounds like a horrible individual; I feel honoured to share his
birthday. :)
Which is why we're here talking about Windows
preferences and not talking about how to switch to
an overpriced, glue-encased, kiddie-UI, spyware,
restricted Apple product.
The man was a salesman who dreamed of being
a Zen master, which is very different from being
an insightful designer. By many accounts he was a
psychopath -- a person with no empathy for others
and with no shame. Psychopaths often seem
charming and clever because of that lack of shame.
When we meet someone who's not embarassed
about themselves we assume they must be a
highly evolved "winner". Jobs managed to convince
a lot of intelligent people that to do as he says is
to be an independent, creative thinker. (Interestingly,
it seems to more often be the intelligent, sophisticated
people who are suckered by Jobs. Less sophisticated
people are not so impressed by zennie UIs with
jelly buttons that look "just so".
In the end, Steve Wozniak was the real brain behind the operation. The
problem is that like most Poles, he didn't want the spotlight and
wouldn't know what to do with it if he had it. Jobs, therefore, ran
with it by default.
It's true that people often don't really know what
they want, or can't put words to it, but a good designer
empathizes and uplifts, without exploiting. Design
should be art, not marketing. There's a difference
between cooking someone's favorite foods well,
vs offering a giant, delicious cheesecake to a grossly
obese person. Jobs's designs were never edifying or
empathizing. They were candy for fat people.
Entertainment options for spoiled consumers. Which
is why the company is so ridiculously successful.
Apple had the benefit of always producing the best _looking_ product.
Once you had it in your hands though, you started to see how it wasn't
in any way better than the competition. Mac OS 8-9 was a poor OS next
to Windows 9x, the iMac while pretty gave you limited upgradeability
compared to a regular desktop PC. People who didn't want to be
bothered loved them both, but would start to hate them if ever proper
multitasking and stability (OS 8-9) and expansion (iMac) became a
necessity.
I'm not sure all of that applies here, though. While
people often don't know what they want, this group
is comprised mostly of techie people who think about
these things, do work on computers, and know the
details of the system. I think it's a very useful question
to ask people what they want and what they don't want
to give up. But I guess sometimes it does have to be
interpreted. If someone says they want a faster
computer that may mean their computer is too slow.
Or it might just mean that they've been reading too many
ads for new computers and *assume* that newer is
faster, and that their computer must be slow. Or it might
mean they use a program that they find confusing and
mistakenly think that a newer version will someone
function more efficiently.
I once had a friend who asked if I could fix her slow
computer. I did what I could, cleaned up, got rid of a sleazy
music player.... But in general the system was in good
shape. I told her that. "Oh!", the woman said, "the
music player was the part we were having trouble with!
We love that music player. It just seemed like it had
become slow." So a "slow computer" problem was
probably actually a bad Internet connection problem and I
made the mistake of assuming she knew the difference.
I had deleted the only program they used!
What's fun about today's computers is that unlike what was sold in the
90s which truly became obsolete within eighteen months, you can hold
onto your machine for half a decade or more as long as you maintain
it. The slowness issue is no longer remedied with an upgrade; it can
be fixed with a software clean-up of some sort.
nospam
2018-05-02 15:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
the iMac while pretty gave you limited upgradeability
compared to a regular desktop PC.
so what? most people don't upgrade, but for those who do, apple had
*other* models, which were not only upgradable, but could be opened
without tools and some could even be used while open, which made
designing custom hardware very convenient.

<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/6j1Fmc6PY2u6c6GG.large>

<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/LG2YPVaHQQ1nWjIE.large>

<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/FScb4AU52CGNDjhq.large
<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/BPGoOxpVpqOqwmjl.large>
Doomsdrzej
2018-05-02 15:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by nospam
Post by Doomsdrzej
the iMac while pretty gave you limited upgradeability
compared to a regular desktop PC.
so what? most people don't upgrade, but for those who do, apple had
*other* models, which were not only upgradable, but could be opened
without tools and some could even be used while open, which made
designing custom hardware very convenient.
<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/6j1Fmc6PY2u6c6GG.large>
<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/LG2YPVaHQQ1nWjIE.large>
<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/FScb4AU52CGNDjhq.large
<https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/BPGoOxpVpqOqwmjl.large>
We all know the benefits of a G5 Mac like the one you showed. However,
that machine, while making upgrades easy, was also grossly overpriced,
consumed an inordinate amount of electricity in comparison to the
power it provided and was noisier than the PC competition. I mentioned
the iMac specifically because it was a high seller unlike your
machine.
nospam
2018-05-02 16:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
We all know the benefits of a G5 Mac like the one you showed.
you clearly do not, and the same design was used for the mac pro.
Post by Doomsdrzej
However,
that machine, while making upgrades easy, was also grossly overpriced,
consumed an inordinate amount of electricity in comparison to the
power it provided and was noisier than the PC competition.
wrong on all counts.
Post by Doomsdrzej
I mentioned
the iMac specifically because it was a high seller unlike your
machine.
again, most people aren't interested in upgrading. if they were, they'd
have bought something other than an all-in-one, including from dell:

<http://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/desktop-and-all-in-one-pcs/sf/inspi
ron-desktops>

plus, imacs weren't as difficult to upgrade as you claim either:
<https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_
US/imac/late09_replace_access_door.png>

John Doe
2018-04-29 22:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
As with every operating system, it ages.
Installation becomes more difficult as it ages.
Hardware is less supported as it ages.
Some software runs slower on an old operating system.
My days of worrying about bulk/bloatware are gone.
I use blazing fast NVMe drives that can easily hold Windows 10 and all
of my software.

The fact Microsoft is trying to turn the desktop PC into a smartphone
has one benefit. It necessitates compactness.
--
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you,
that you do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to
the OS? 1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it
isn't OS related) 2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I
don't - but some do) 3. Support (but that's a marketing decision -
not technical functionality) 4. Cascaded menus (but this can be
fudged on the newer operating systems) 5. ? 6. ? 7. ? 8. ? 9. ?
10. ?
Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality
(due to the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is
just not available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about
Win10 gripes.
Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about
Windows 10, since we all know that list is a mile long already.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just
can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to
the OS)?
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 02:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Doe
The fact Microsoft is trying to turn the desktop PC into a smartphone
has one benefit. It necessitates compactness.
This one point wasn't in the original post so I thank you.

That makes it, so far, this as the major differences in functionality:
1. 64-bit
2. Subscriptions & updates
3. Support
4. Cascaded menus
5. Touch screen
6. DirectX 12 (for gamers only though)
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
JJ
2018-04-30 03:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
5. Touch screen
Touch screen monitors usually provide the necessary driver and softwares for
at least Windows 7. So, Windows 10 isn't needed for touch screens. Some
ticket machines have a touch screen and they use Windows XP Embedded.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 03:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
Touch screen monitors usually provide the necessary driver and softwares for
at least Windows 7. So, Windows 10 isn't needed for touch screens. Some
ticket machines have a touch screen and they use Windows XP Embedded.
Thanks for confirming that Win7 is a touch-screen enabled OS, so that
knocks out that item, along with the 64-bit OS & OS support knocked out by
Mayayana and directX essentially added by the links from Bob_S where this
is the current summary of what OS functionality exists in Win10 that isn't
in either WinXP or Win7.

1. The subscription OS often updates
2. Touch screen OS
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Steve Hayes
2018-04-30 10:29:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:29:08 +0000 (UTC), Bob J Jones
Post by Bob J Jones
1. 64-bit
As far as I am aware, there have been 64-bit versions of Windows XP,
Vista and 7, so you can scrub that one.

If I ever hace to xgrade to Windows 10, I'll be looking for a 32-bit
version.
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
Bob_S
2018-04-30 01:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
Please note that this thread is asking for technical functionality (due to
the operation system alone!) that is on Windows 10 that is just not
available on the earlier versions - it's not asking about Win10 gripes.
Specifically this is not a thread about what you hate about Windows 10,
since we all know that list is a mile long already.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
Here's a couple of links that may help fill in some of the missing answers:

https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/buying-advice/windows/windows-10-vs-windows-xp-3622746/
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm

Got lazy and wasn't going to type out what is readily available.
--
Bob S.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 02:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Got lazy and wasn't going to type out what is readily available.
Most "news" articles are nearly worthless shills.
Both articles you cited fit that description of being nearly worthless.

*Most articles are mindless marketing bullshit.*

I value the insight from real users here who aren't selling me something.
Post by Bob_S
https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/buying-advice/windows/windows-10-vs-windows-xp-3622746/
That entire article was almost completely fluff.
It was something a fifth grader could have written.

There was only 1 potentially useful item we didn't already think of:
* DirectX 12 (for gamers only though)

So I'll add DirectX to the list. Thanks.
(The rest of the stuff in that article was well-known marketing garbage.)
Post by Bob_S
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm
WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?

The biggest deal in Windows 10 over WinXP/Win7 is MKV?
Huh?

Windows 10 supports MKV?
WinXP & Win7 don't support MKV?

Makes no sense.
At least not to me.

WTF? Snap assist? Really? Is this a bullshit marketing article or what?

Continium? WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?

WTF? The Command Prompt? Who on earth actually believes this bullshit?

WTF? The Spartan Browser? That article is complete marketing bullshit.
Like most of these bullshit marketing articles.

Maybe you misunderstood the request.
I wanted input from "real users" - not mindless Microsoft marketing bullshit
JJ
2018-04-30 03:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Bob_S
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm
WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?
The biggest deal in Windows 10 over WinXP/Win7 is MKV?
Huh?
Windows 10 supports MKV?
WinXP & Win7 don't support MKV?
Makes no sense.
At least not to me.
MKV support is not provided by the OS. It's provided by the Windows Media
Foundation library (WMF). It's the main multimedia library for the Windows
OS, and it's required by Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center, but
WMF is not required by the system. It's actually separate from the system,
and it can be removed entirely without fatally crippling the system. Unlike
MSIE where its libraries has been heavily used by the system.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 03:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
MKV support is not provided by the OS. It's provided by the Windows Media
Foundation library (WMF). It's the main multimedia library for the Windows
OS, and it's required by Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center, but
WMF is not required by the system. It's actually separate from the system,
and it can be removed entirely without fatally crippling the system. Unlike
MSIE where its libraries has been heavily used by the system.
Thanks for confirming that the MKV support was bullshit where that article
was so chock full of mindless marketing bullshit that one has to wonder who
reads that useless crap.

The actual apps are not part of this question since we're only asking what
people can do with the Win10 OS that they can't already do in wither the
WinXP or Win7 OS.

But to cover apps, I've never used the windows media player in my entire
life, and I've been on Windows as long as anyone here has (just like I
don't use Internet Explorer).

I use VLC and Media Player Classic plus the KLite Codec Packs.
And I've never had a problem (that I can recall) playing MKV container
files.

So that article was complete bullshit, notwistanding the "command prompt"
and "Spartan Browser" and "snap assist" bullshit. I can't believe that
article even exists, since it seems like it was autogenerated by a bullshit
marketing spewer.

What i was asking for wasn't mindless marketing bullshit.

I'm asking a simple question that only a real user would know answers to.

The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
JJ
2018-04-30 04:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Me as a user? None.
I only need the Edge browser because it's me as a software developer.
But as a consumer, none. Because I don't use Edge for my internet surfing.
Mayayana
2018-04-30 13:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"JJ" <***@vfemail.net> wrote

| I only need the Edge browser because it's me as a software developer.

Not as a web developer? What need is there of Edge
for software, since IE is still the IE automation provider?
JJ
2018-04-30 13:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| I only need the Edge browser because it's me as a software developer.
Not as a web developer? What need is there of Edge
for software, since IE is still the IE automation provider?
Web is a software, but not all softwares are web.
I do both.
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 16:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Me as a user? None.
I only need the Edge browser because it's me as a software developer.
But as a consumer, none. Because I don't use Edge for my internet surfing.
Edge is my main browser but I feel as though I can't expect much out
of it and almost have to hold my breath while using it. Every other
browser seems superior but Edge's built-in bookmark syncing has
prevented me from losing a number of important links. I know this
functionality is available everywhere else but Edge's doesn't require
an extension or even to enter a username and password since it's
attached to the account you use logging into Windows.
Brian Gregory
2018-04-30 18:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Me as a user? None.
I only need the Edge browser because it's me as a software developer.
But as a consumer, none. Because I don't use Edge for my internet surfing.
Edge is my main browser but I feel as though I can't expect much out
of it and almost have to hold my breath while using it. Every other
browser seems superior but Edge's built-in bookmark syncing has
prevented me from losing a number of important links. I know this
functionality is available everywhere else but Edge's doesn't require
an extension or even to enter a username and password since it's
attached to the account you use logging into Windows.
You must have a gmail account surely?

Use Chrome and your bookmarks will sync to Chrome on your Linux systems
and Chrome on your Android phone too.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 21:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:37:26 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Me as a user? None.
I only need the Edge browser because it's me as a software developer.
But as a consumer, none. Because I don't use Edge for my internet surfing.
Edge is my main browser but I feel as though I can't expect much out
of it and almost have to hold my breath while using it. Every other
browser seems superior but Edge's built-in bookmark syncing has
prevented me from losing a number of important links. I know this
functionality is available everywhere else but Edge's doesn't require
an extension or even to enter a username and password since it's
attached to the account you use logging into Windows.
You must have a gmail account surely?
Only because I have an Android phone but I try to avoid using Google
as much as possible because of how unethical the company is.
Post by Brian Gregory
Use Chrome and your bookmarks will sync to Chrome on your Linux systems
and Chrome on your Android phone too.
I'm aware, but I'd rather Google has as little of my information as
possible.
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 13:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Bob_S
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm
WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?
The biggest deal in Windows 10 over WinXP/Win7 is MKV?
Huh?
Windows 10 supports MKV?
WinXP & Win7 don't support MKV?
Makes no sense.
At least not to me.
MKV support is not provided by the OS. It's provided by the Windows Media
Foundation library (WMF). It's the main multimedia library for the Windows
OS, and it's required by Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center, but
WMF is not required by the system. It's actually separate from the system,
and it can be removed entirely without fatally crippling the system. Unlike
MSIE where its libraries has been heavily used by the system.
Windows 10 supports h264 and MKV but has no understanding of h265
which is a fantastic, space-saving codec.
Brian Gregory
2018-04-30 18:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Bob_S
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm
WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?
The biggest deal in Windows 10 over WinXP/Win7 is MKV?
Huh?
Windows 10 supports MKV?
WinXP & Win7 don't support MKV?
Makes no sense.
At least not to me.
MKV support is not provided by the OS. It's provided by the Windows Media
Foundation library (WMF). It's the main multimedia library for the Windows
OS, and it's required by Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center, but
WMF is not required by the system. It's actually separate from the system,
and it can be removed entirely without fatally crippling the system. Unlike
MSIE where its libraries has been heavily used by the system.
Windows 10 supports h264 and MKV but has no understanding of h265
which is a fantastic, space-saving codec.
So no better than Windows 7.

Plus trivial to install free software to add support such as:
http://www.cccp-project.net/
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Shadow
2018-04-30 19:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:41:23 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Bob_S
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm
WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?
The biggest deal in Windows 10 over WinXP/Win7 is MKV?
Huh?
Windows 10 supports MKV?
WinXP & Win7 don't support MKV?
Makes no sense.
At least not to me.
MKV support is not provided by the OS. It's provided by the Windows Media
Foundation library (WMF). It's the main multimedia library for the Windows
OS, and it's required by Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center, but
WMF is not required by the system. It's actually separate from the system,
and it can be removed entirely without fatally crippling the system. Unlike
MSIE where its libraries has been heavily used by the system.
Windows 10 supports h264 and MKV but has no understanding of h265
which is a fantastic, space-saving codec.
So no better than Windows 7.
http://www.cccp-project.net/
Or Videolan (VLC) (freeware). handles MKV and h265. And runs
on XP or worse.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
Brian Gregory
2018-04-30 22:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Shadow
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:41:23 +0100, Brian Gregory
Post by Brian Gregory
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Bob_S
https://www.winxdvd.com/answers/windows-10-vs-windows-xp.htm
WTF? Did a Microsoft Marketing intern write that article?
The biggest deal in Windows 10 over WinXP/Win7 is MKV?
Huh?
Windows 10 supports MKV?
WinXP & Win7 don't support MKV?
Makes no sense.
At least not to me.
MKV support is not provided by the OS. It's provided by the Windows Media
Foundation library (WMF). It's the main multimedia library for the Windows
OS, and it's required by Windows Media Player and Windows Media Center, but
WMF is not required by the system. It's actually separate from the system,
and it can be removed entirely without fatally crippling the system. Unlike
MSIE where its libraries has been heavily used by the system.
Windows 10 supports h264 and MKV but has no understanding of h265
which is a fantastic, space-saving codec.
So no better than Windows 7.
http://www.cccp-project.net/
Or Videolan (VLC) (freeware). handles MKV and h265. And runs
on XP or worse.
[]'s
Well yes, if you don't mind always using VLC to play H.265.

Add CCCP and Windows Media Player will be able to play H.265.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Bob_S
2018-04-30 03:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Wow... glad you found it so helpful. Next time I'll try to read your mine
to ensure that taking the time to offer some assistance isn't wasted.

Don't hold your breath though.

Bob S.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 03:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Don't hold your breath though.
I apologize that I had to say the truth about the articles.
I'm sorry.

There was one item that was useful in those two articles, so it has been
added - for which I appreciate your help.

Anyway, to stay on topic, here's the current summary given the answers so
far.

1. The subscription OS often updates
2. Touch screen OS
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Frank Slootweg
2018-04-30 16:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Bob J Jones <***@startmail.com> (or is it 'Ragnusen Ultred'?) wrote:
[...]
Post by Bob J Jones
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
It's still not clear why you've left out Windows Vista and Windows
8.1. By accident or on purpose? If the latter, why?

[Rewind:]
Post by Bob J Jones
Anyway, to stay on topic, here's the current summary given the answers so
far.
1. The subscription OS often updates
Same for 7 and 8.1.
Post by Bob J Jones
2. Touch screen OS.
Same for 8.1.
Post by Bob J Jones
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
Who (really) cares?
Post by Bob J Jones
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
No Windows Store apps don't run on Win 7. And (AFAIK) Win8 WS apps
don't run on Win10 and vice versa. Can you say "No (backward)
compatibility!"?
Post by Bob J Jones
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
[Rewind:]
Post by Bob J Jones
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Well, (add-on) hardware/software compatibility is mainly
'functionality' *of* the OS, but to a certain extend also functionality
*in* the OS. So such functionality of Windows X :-) might be useful to
me, as a user, compared to Windows Y.

Other that that, for me, Windows 10 does not offer any functionality
over 8.1, 7, Vista or XP.
Bob J Jones
2018-05-01 06:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Frank Slootweg
It's still not clear why you've left out Windows Vista and Windows
8.1. By accident or on purpose? If the latter, why?
It's obvious to me, but probably not to others since they're not likely
used to what happens in B2B software.

In our B2B situation, everyone sits behind the major release that they set
up their environment of tens of thousands of users on.

So, they don't wnt to move off that environment.

In practice, even if you release quarterly for ten years, what happens is
that almost all the customers are behind only a couple of major releases.

It's just what happens.

I don't know if that happens with Windows but I assumed that most people
are on XP or Win7 or Win10.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Bob J Jones
1. The subscription OS often updates
Same for 7 and 8.1.
If the subscription model for Win7 is the same as Win 10, then I'll remove
it.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Bob J Jones
2. Touch screen OS.
Same for 8.1.
Someone said it was the same for Win7, so I have removed it.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Bob J Jones
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
Who (really) cares?
I'm trying to find the 10 most important things that Win 10 has that isn't
on Win7 and WinXP.

We haven't even gotten to half that so, for now, it has to be on the list.

But I do understand that it's not likely important.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Bob J Jones
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
No Windows Store apps don't run on Win 7. And (AFAIK) Win8 WS apps
don't run on Win10 and vice versa. Can you say "No (backward)
compatibility!"?
This means we can keep the windows store apps on the list.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Well, (add-on) hardware/software compatibility is mainly
'functionality' *of* the OS, but to a certain extend also functionality
*in* the OS. So such functionality of Windows X :-) might be useful to
me, as a user, compared to Windows Y.
Other that that, for me, Windows 10 does not offer any functionality
over 8.1, 7, Vista or XP.
Here is the list from everyone so far.

1. Windows Store apps
2. Cortana searches
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access 2TB of RAM (instead of 512GB, 192GB, & 128GB previously)
5. HiDPI scale text & GUI to 200% (not just 150% previously)
6. Full-screen console mode
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

Is there anything else?
What is the priority order?
Mayayana
2018-04-30 02:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Bob J Jones" <***@startMail.com> wrote

| What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
| 1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)

No, it isn't. So why mention it? My Win7 box
is 64-bit. All of my computers have AMD CPUs
that will support 64-bit anything.
And very few things actually benefit from
64-bit. The most notable would be media editing
programs that can benefit from having a lot of
RAM. 64-bit is still something that's being done
in preparation for a time when it will be needed.
You're android love doll will need 64-bit in order
to act convincingly like a human.

| 2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)

You mean subscription software from Windows
Store? Win8 has that. Doesn't Win7 still get
updates? In any case, that has nothing to do
with "things you can do".

| 4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)

?? Have I missed something? Start Menu and
program menus cascade on Win98.

The main reason given for new versions is security,
which is a red herring issue. I have no doubt that
my XP box with no AV is safer than Win10 -- because
I'm careful online and no one is targetting XP. Security
risks are caused by allowing executable code from
a remote machine.

The only sensible reason to buy new OSs is
support for hardware or software that's new.
Adobe Photoshop doesn't support XP. Firefox
recently dropped support for XP, as did Libre
Office. New games may not run on Win7. Newer
hardware might be an issue. Those are *real*
reasons why you might need to update.

Anyone currently running XP has to accept
that support is going to start being dropped.
Whether that's a problem depends on what they
want to do.
Windows 7? Win10 has barely caught up with
Win7 usage online. It's probably still far behind
among offline machines. And Win7 is still supported
by MS. Most software support lasts well past
Microsoft support. So unless you're a teenager
obsessed with the newest games, software support
for Win7 is not likely to be an issue for at least 5
years. That's all the more true in the case of Win10
because corporate entities have avoided it as much
as possible. They're the ones who pay for software.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 02:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In <news:pc5v3f$9vi$***@dont-email.me>, Mayayana <***@invalid.nospam>
wrote:

This is part II of a two-part answer (because part 1 was already long).
Post by Mayayana
| 2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
You mean subscription software from Windows
Store? Win8 has that. Doesn't Win7 still get
updates? In any case, that has nothing to do
with "things you can do".
Good point.
I meant that Windows 10 is a "subscription" model.

I did not mean any particular apps.
But we can remove that from the list.

The reason I mentioned it was only because people are all pre-programmed on
their responses. They only have one response programmed in their minds once
any given set of keywords show up in a thread.

I was trying to head off having to respond to all those pre-programmed
responses.
It failed.
Post by Mayayana
| 4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
?? Have I missed something? Start Menu and
program menus cascade on Win98.
Yes. You did miss something.
Nobody was asking about Win98.

The reason I picked the major releases out there is that my problem set
with other software includes two major releases even though there are
myriad releases in between.

So this discussion only applies to WinXP, Win7, and Win10.
Post by Mayayana
The main reason given for new versions is security,
which is a red herring issue.
I completely agree.
Lots of reasons why I agree.
You know security. So do I. It's a red herring.

Only Microsoft Marketing brings it up. :)
Post by Mayayana
I have no doubt that
my XP box with no AV is safer than Win10 -- because
I'm careful online and no one is targetting XP. Security
risks are caused by allowing executable code from
a remote machine.
Yep. Red herring is security.
I agree.
Post by Mayayana
The only sensible reason to buy new OSs is
support for hardware or software that's new.
This is a valid issue - but really - is it a problem?
Can't XP or Win7 run on almost anything that's new today?
Post by Mayayana
Adobe Photoshop doesn't support XP.
That's a red herring since it's not functionality "of" the operating
system.
Post by Mayayana
Firefox
recently dropped support for XP, as did Libre
Office.
That's a red herring because it's not functionality "of" the operating
system.
Post by Mayayana
New games may not run on Win7. Newer
hardware might be an issue. Those are *real*
reasons why you might need to update.
All red herrings unrelated to the question.
I understand your request for clarification, so, that's why I'm responding
in detail.

The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Post by Mayayana
Anyone currently running XP has to accept
that support is going to start being dropped.
Whether that's a problem depends on what they
want to do.
Red herring. We already listed that so there is no added value repeating
it.
Post by Mayayana
Windows 7? Win10 has barely caught up with
Win7 usage online. It's probably still far behind
among offline machines.
Huh? What does that mean?
Post by Mayayana
And Win7 is still supported
by MS.
This is true, but we are combining WinXP and Win7 where you're semantically
correct, but it's just a point if we bought too many arguments.

I do understand your clarification.
I'm just saying it's not what I was seeking as added value.
Post by Mayayana
Most software support lasts well past
Microsoft support.
Yup. But that doesn't help answer the question.
Post by Mayayana
So unless you're a teenager
obsessed with the newest games, software support
for Win7 is not likely to be an issue for at least 5
years.
One of the mostly marketing bullshit articles that someone pointed me to
mentioned DirectX support.

So far, that's the only added value in this thread yet.

I don't play games.
Is DirectX support in Win10 a big deal over Win7/WinXP or not?
Post by Mayayana
That's all the more true in the case of Win10
because corporate entities have avoided it as much
as possible. They're the ones who pay for software.
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 03:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| 4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
?? Have I missed something? Start Menu and
program menus cascade on Win98.
Oooooooooops. This was my bad.

Forgive me Mayayana. I goofed on the cascaded menus.
That's lost functionality.

My brain did a thinko.
Mayayana
2018-04-30 13:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Bob J Jones" <***@startMail.com> wrote

| > ?? Have I missed something? Start Menu and
| > program menus cascade on Win98.
|

You both attacked and apologized on this one, but
I'm still trying to figure out what the heck you're
talking about with "cascading". :) I've only dabbled
with Win10 UI, but I don't remember anything
especially novel about it. Unless you count
the "anti-3D" design trend, which is as trivial as it
is tasteless.

| > Adobe Photoshop doesn't support XP.
|
| That's a red herring since it's not functionality "of" the operating
| system.
|

You said you were trying to think through your
stategy in the face of customers who aren't
buying new software from you. I daresay that new,
incompatible software versions is a big reason for
updating the OS.

You didn't explain how that relates to your
product, but it sounded like you have a new version
that requires Win10 and it's not selling. Personally
I'd go for carrot rather than stick: Add relevant
features instead of dead-ending old versions. Or
just accept that there's a limited market for the
2016 Farmers Almanac. But that's a big topic.

Before Microsoft started trying to sell Windows
as a service they acknowledged and defined it as
a platform. A platform for software and hardware
functionality. Windows is only supposed to be the
framework that makes it all usable. It's not supposed
to be a barking trinket salesman or a spyware,
marketing data dealer. That's all a semi-visible sideline.
The role as a platform *is* its functionality. So, isn't
support for new hardware types, and new software
that uses new APIs, the main reason to update?

I built a new Win7-64 box for my ladyfriend awhile
back because she does a lot of high quality photo
editing/printing and I figured the 64-bit would be
worth it. If she'd wanted the latest version of
Paint Shop Pro or Aftershot Pro, that would have
also been a reason to move to Win7. Thus, software
update as motivater to update Windows.

(Though 7 is still sitting there. She doesn't want to
leave XP for a theoretical, mysterious benefit named
"ram". Especially given that she's not finding that
she has to wait for operations on XP, which already
provides her with about 3 GB RAM. Her ridiculously
expensive photo prointer laos has XP drivers. I'm
not sure about Win7 drivers. I doubt it has Win10
drivers.)

| > New games may not run on Win7. Newer
| > hardware might be an issue. Those are *real*
| > reasons why you might need to update.
|
| All red herrings unrelated to the question.

New games are related to DirectX updates. Game
makers are the ones who provide the breakthroughs in
functionality. And game fans are fanatical about
getting maximum gaming function. They want their
hot e-chicks to have convincing hair and their fast
battle action to be as fast as possible. (It reminds
me of people who used to spend thousands on
4-foot-high quadrophonic speakers in the 70s, only
to pump Black Sabbath through them. Silly, but
their gotta-have-it attitude funds development.)

| The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
| isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
|

So far I don't need anything past XP. 64-bit will be
important at some point, but it's just now achieving
compatibility. And I wrote my own Explorer Bar for
folders that I'm quite fond of, but which only works
in 32-bit Explorer. So I'm in no hurry for 64-bit.

But I don't think I'm typical. Gamers want new.
Corporate types who think of their conputer as
synonymous with MS Office want/need regular
updates.


| > Windows 7? Win10 has barely caught up with
| > Win7 usage online. It's probably still far behind
| > among offline machines.
|
| Huh? What does that mean?
|

The various survey companies that count computers
by putting web bug spyware on website visitors' machines
(scorecardresearch, for instance) announced just
recently that Win10 users were finally more numerous
than Win7 users. But that's online. (And of course
it's also very rough guessing. Fox, Victorias Secret,
ESPN, CBS, Facebook and BBC probably each show
different numbers and each have different relevance.
For instance, what does 7 vs 10 mean on Facebook if
phones are the vast majority of their visitors?)

Older Windows versions are used in vast numbers that
often don't get counted simply because they're not
considered part of the visible "market". That includes retail
cash registers, work computers in the corporate world,
etc. Computers for work are practical. If they still work
there's no reason to update. Architects, sign makers,
artists, scientists, retail stores, restaurants.....
Those are all people who are likely to be faced with
extortionary software costs if they buy a new computer.
(I once knew an architect using AutoCAD on Win3 in
the late 90s. He'd got it cheap as a student and the
Win98 version was crazy expensive.)

There was an interesting article awhile back. (Maybe
a year or so. I don't remember.) At that time, Win10
showed a bigger fraction at US gov't sites on weekends
than on weekdays. The conclusion was that they were
seeing the avoidance of Win10 in the corporate world
and the inevitable increase among retail buyers.

So the real numbers are close to 50/50 online for
Win10 vs Win7, and the real numbers for total machines
actually in use would probably show a much smaller
fraction of win10 machines.

| > And Win7 is still supported
| > by MS.
|
| This is true, but we are combining WinXP and Win7 where you're
semantically
| correct, but it's just a point if we bought too many arguments.
|
We? XP and 7 are different. The reasons to stay
with them are different. There's no credible reason
for most people to leave Win7. WinXP, however,
now requires some work to maintain. The question
of what Win10 offers, therefore, varies with each.
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 02:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
| 1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
No, it isn't. So why mention it?
[This is part I of a two-part answer (because part I was already long).]

Because I know most people are stupid.
Most people will instantly say stuff that doesn't answer the question.

Most people have pre-prared responses to just one or two keywords.
So, it doesn't matter what the question is.

Once you have one or two of those keywords, their pre-programmed response
kicks in instantly. They can't help themselves.

Want proof? Just look at the answers so far. :)
Post by Mayayana
My Win7 box
is 64-bit. All of my computers have AMD CPUs
that will support 64-bit anything.
Yes. I know. I do.
I was just trying to NOT have to argue this point.

I had wanted people to actually stay on topic of the question.
That's the only reason it was included.

I guess it didn't work.
Post by Mayayana
And very few things actually benefit from
64-bit.
Yes. I know. I really do.
A lot of things are slower, but let's stop talking about 64-bit because you
can ask *any* question on the planet that includes the term "64-bit" and
people will instantly respond with their pre-programmed responses.

You think I don't know that?
I was trying to head off at the pass what I *knew* people respond to.

Most people are stupid.
They don't read the question.
They don't even understand the question.

So the whole point was to weed out the stupid people.
It didn't work. :(

I know you're not stupid, but I'm still wasting everyone's time by agreeing
with you that 64-bit is unrelated - but I just wanted to NOT have to
discuss it since it's not the answer to the question.

So I agree with you and will remove it from the list.

I'll take the rest of your helpful comments separately where...

The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
JJ
2018-04-30 03:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
| 1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
No, it isn't. So why mention it? My Win7 box
is 64-bit.
That and the other points, I think they're for people who aren't familiar
with computers and/or Windows.
Post by Mayayana
All of my computers have AMD CPUs
that will support 64-bit anything.
Except for IA-64, ARM v8, and everything else 64-bit which are not x86-64
compatible. :)
mechanic
2018-04-30 11:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Anyone currently running XP has to accept that support is going to
start being dropped.
You mean that people should realise that it's no longer 2014? There
have been at least six OS upgrades since then.
Shadow
2018-04-30 18:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by mechanic
You mean that people should realise that it's no longer 2014? There
have been at least six OS upgrades since then.
The original question was:

What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or
Windows 7 ?

NOT "what's trendy" ?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
JJ
2018-04-30 03:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.

- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.

- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.

- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.

- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.

- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.

I only need the last one, though...
Bob J Jones
2018-04-30 03:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I only need the last one, though...
Thanks for that input.

Some of this is good, some generally accepted as crap.
So let's go down the list to pull out the goodies!
Post by JJ
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.'
This is likely good if it's true.
Can 64-bit Win10 use more ram than 64-bit Win7?
Post by JJ
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
This was added thanks to one of the cites by another person.
Thanks.
Post by JJ
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
Hmmmmmmmmm...... is this just a gimmick or is it really useful?
If the Win10 scaling maximum is 200%, what was the Win7 scaling max?
Post by JJ
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
I don't understand this.
But I'll add it as others might.
Post by JJ
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
Windows 7 can't do this?
If so, then it's probably a good deal for some people.
Post by JJ
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I think the courts already separated the browser from the OS.
So this is not something of any use to anyone.
Nor is the Edge browser generally considered all that functional.
Post by JJ
I only need the last one, though...
Sorry I wrote what I did above about Edge. :)

But the browser is not part of the OS (according to the courts).
It's just an app that happens to only run on Windows 10.

Here's the updated list with everyone's comments added.
Thanks.

1. The subscription OS often updates
2. Touch screen OS
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Paul
2018-04-30 04:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by JJ
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I only need the last one, though...
Thanks for that input.
Some of this is good, some generally accepted as crap.
So let's go down the list to pull out the goodies!
Post by JJ
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.'
This is likely good if it's true.
Can 64-bit Win10 use more ram than 64-bit Win7?
Post by JJ
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
This was added thanks to one of the cites by another person.
Thanks.
Post by JJ
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
Hmmmmmmmmm...... is this just a gimmick or is it really useful?
If the Win10 scaling maximum is 200%, what was the Win7 scaling max?
Post by JJ
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
I don't understand this.
But I'll add it as others might.
Post by JJ
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
Windows 7 can't do this?
If so, then it's probably a good deal for some people.
Post by JJ
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I think the courts already separated the browser from the OS.
So this is not something of any use to anyone.
Nor is the Edge browser generally considered all that functional.
Post by JJ
I only need the last one, though...
Sorry I wrote what I did above about Edge. :)
But the browser is not part of the OS (according to the courts).
It's just an app that happens to only run on Windows 10.
Here's the updated list with everyone's comments added.
Thanks.
1. The subscription OS often updates
2. Touch screen OS
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
The graphics scaling feature might also be referred
to as "HiDPI" support. Even applications have to support
aspects of it though. I mean, modern browsers cannot
even figure out how big my screen is, when delivering
video (causing the video window to be wider than the
browser window). And that's on an ordinary screen,
not an Apple monitor.

https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2017/04/04/high-dpi-scaling-improvements-desktop-applications-windows-10-creators-update/

I hadn't heard about MKV support. The one I'd heard about
(and briefly tested) was FLAC support. But I don't have
any really good A/B FLAC samples for comparative listening.
(All I could find is some "scratchy" orchestral recordings.)
Some people apparently keep their music collections in
that format.

Paul
Char Jackson
2018-04-30 15:30:32 UTC
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Post by Paul
I hadn't heard about MKV support. The one I'd heard about
(and briefly tested) was FLAC support. But I don't have
any really good A/B FLAC samples for comparative listening.
(All I could find is some "scratchy" orchestral recordings.)
Some people apparently keep their music collections in
that format.
The parts of my music collection that I actually care about are all in
FLAC.
Bob J Jones
2018-05-01 06:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Char Jackson
The parts of my music collection that I actually care about are all in
FLAC.
Does Win10 have Flac support that Win7 & WinXP don't have?
Paul
2018-05-01 10:52:06 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Char Jackson
The parts of my music collection that I actually care about are all in
FLAC.
Does Win10 have Flac support that Win7 & WinXP don't have?
AFAIK, yes.

I don't even think FLAC was available on Win10 on the first
release. It came later.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-05-01 12:23:01 UTC
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"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote

| > Does Win10 have Flac support that Win7 & WinXP don't have?
|
| AFAIK, yes.
|
| I don't even think FLAC was available on Win10 on the first
| release. It came later.
|

Why would that matter? It's an open format. VLC
supports it. Free tools are available to work with it.
Saying only Win10 supports FLAC is like saying Windows
supports ZIP, or that Windows added PNG support when
it was added to Paint.

Technically that's true, up to a point, but ZIP programs
are freely available, as are image viewers. I've never
actually used Windows ZIP functionality. Presenting ZIP
files as folders is too confusing. (Nor have I ever used a
Microsoft audio player, for that matter, or a Microsoft
image viewer.)

DirectX versions matter because earlier Windows
versions can't get them. File formats, on the other hand,
are not directly connected with Windows functionality.
In general, the programs that handle them are not using
Windows API in any essential way. For instance,
before Windows had gdiplus.dll to handle JPG, people
just used any one of numerous 3rd-party libraries to
do it. It wasn't as though people using Win9x couldn't
edit or save JPG files.
Paul
2018-05-01 13:44:57 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| > Does Win10 have Flac support that Win7 & WinXP don't have?
|
| AFAIK, yes.
|
| I don't even think FLAC was available on Win10 on the first
| release. It came later.
|
Why would that matter? It's an open format. VLC
supports it. Free tools are available to work with it.
Saying only Win10 supports FLAC is like saying Windows
supports ZIP, or that Windows added PNG support when
it was added to Paint.
Technically that's true, up to a point, but ZIP programs
are freely available, as are image viewers. I've never
actually used Windows ZIP functionality. Presenting ZIP
files as folders is too confusing. (Nor have I ever used a
Microsoft audio player, for that matter, or a Microsoft
image viewer.)
DirectX versions matter because earlier Windows
versions can't get them. File formats, on the other hand,
are not directly connected with Windows functionality.
In general, the programs that handle them are not using
Windows API in any essential way. For instance,
before Windows had gdiplus.dll to handle JPG, people
just used any one of numerous 3rd-party libraries to
do it. It wasn't as though people using Win9x couldn't
edit or save JPG files.
FLAC itself is a "nothing-burger".

However, it's the willingness to entertain FLAC that matters.

Remember that we used to live in a ".bmp .wav .wmv" universe,
with very limited thought processes.

You still aren't going to get Microsoft to include
anything with patent/licensing fees. There's always
a charge for those (when going non-FOSS).

Paul
Char Jackson
2018-05-01 15:12:41 UTC
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Post by Paul
FLAC itself is a "nothing-burger".
The FLAC file format is far from a nothing-burger. However, Windows
support for FLAC could certainly be called a nothing burger since there
are so many great tools already existing.

I presume you meant the latter and not the former.
Paul
2018-05-01 18:12:38 UTC
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Post by Char Jackson
Post by Paul
FLAC itself is a "nothing-burger".
The FLAC file format is far from a nothing-burger. However, Windows
support for FLAC could certainly be called a nothing burger since there
are so many great tools already existing.
I presume you meant the latter and not the former.
I thought it was clear that "Microsoft changing their minds"
and doing this, is the note worthy part. I couldn't
tell you how they go about deciding to add support
for something. The little people at Microsoft don't
"draw straws" to see who does stuff like this.
I don't think I've seen a "white paper" on the Microsoft site,
announcing they've come to their senses and will no longer be
insular on format support.

Something like FLAC, if there's no licensing fee,
that's probably the biggest barrier to entry for them.

But if a format means paying MPLA two bucks, that's
not going to happen. That was one incentive to get
rid of Media Center. That, and providing Guide Data.
Anything which has "costs" associated with it, I'm
sure some executives discuss that every time a
new OS comes along.

When NVidia put five DSP cores into the MCP-T Southbridge,
I and all the customers who bought one, thought the
concept was great. One of the DSP cores was dedicated
to AC3 encoding in hardware, done with 50 millisecond
latency (to be sent to a receiver with S'PDIF). Well,
what happened ? NVidia promptly discontinued the hardware
feature, and the only reason for doing that, is the licensing
fee associated with the AC3 encoding. That was a barrier
to ever doing that a second time. Presumably this
chopped too much profit off their bottom line, and
was just an experiment at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_AC-3

"The last patent covering AC-3 expired March 20, 2017,
so it is now generally free to use."

Great, I'm so excited :-/ It's like discovering there
is no longer a patent on "buggy whips".

Paul
Doomsdrzej
2018-05-01 15:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 1 May 2018 06:09:19 +0000 (UTC), Bob J Jones
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Char Jackson
The parts of my music collection that I actually care about are all in
FLAC.
Does Win10 have Flac support that Win7 & WinXP don't have?
Yes. Windows Media Player even allows you rip to FLAC if you choose
to.
Shadow
2018-05-01 16:19:45 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
On Tue, 1 May 2018 06:09:19 +0000 (UTC), Bob J Jones
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by Char Jackson
The parts of my music collection that I actually care about are all in
FLAC.
Does Win10 have Flac support that Win7 & WinXP don't have?
Yes. Windows Media Player even allows you rip to FLAC if you choose
to.
I don't know anyone that uses a OS without third party
software. It's like booting the Linux Kernel with no apps at all
installed. (Linux is just the Kernel plus a few utils/scripts to boot
it.)
There are a myriad of FLAC manipulating utilities out there,
most of them free.
No, that's not a feature. It's extra space and memory used for
something you don't really need. And it probably encodes some UniqueID
in anything you produce, so you can be tracked. I'd call it a bug.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
JJ
2018-04-30 04:08:17 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
This is likely good if it's true.
Can 64-bit Win10 use more ram than 64-bit Win7?
All 64-bit editions of Windows:
Windows XP and Vista can use RAM up to 128GB only.
Windows 7 = 192GB.
Windows 8 = 512GB.
Windows 10 = 2TB.

Sauces:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_editions#Advantages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista_editions#Comparison_chart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions#Comparison_chart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions#Comparison_chart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_editions#Comparison_chart
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by JJ
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
Hmmmmmmmmm...... is this just a gimmick or is it really useful?
If the Win10 scaling maximum is 200%, what was the Win7 scaling max?
Older Windows can only scale up to 150%.

I don't use it either, but this feature can only be done from the system. It
can't be done from third party software.
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by JJ
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
I don't understand this.
But I'll add it as others might.
Consoles are text based window such as the Command Prompt. In full screen
mode, the window will be maximized without any window titlebar or border -
just like the old DOS, or *nix without GUI. If you're on 32-bit Windows,
press ALT+ENTER to toggle full screen. Full screen mode is not available on
64-bit Windows until Windows 10.
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by JJ
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
Windows 7 can't do this?
If so, then it's probably a good deal for some people.
No. It requires a library which is only available in Windows 8+. The library
can not be migrated into older Windows, and there's no emulator or wrapper
or workaround to run "app" on system older than Windows 8.
Post by Bob J Jones
Post by JJ
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I think the courts already separated the browser from the OS.
So this is not something of any use to anyone.
Nor is the Edge browser generally considered all that functional.
Post by JJ
I only need the last one, though...
Sorry I wrote what I did above about Edge. :)
But the browser is not part of the OS (according to the courts).
It's just an app that happens to only run on Windows 10.
Yes, it's not for everyone, and it's not part of the system. The ones who
actually need it would be web developers. Edge is like DirectX 12. It's not
available for, or runnable in older Windows versions. It just happen to run
only in Windows 10.
Post by Bob J Jones
Here's the updated list with everyone's comments added.
Thanks.
1. The subscription OS often updates
2. Touch screen OS
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access more ram than the 64-bit Win7 can
5. Scale text & GUI to 200% (what was the Win7 limit?)
6. Console runs in full-screen mode (need better explanation)
7. Windows Store apps (these don't run on Win7?)
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
The question is what is inherently a functionality in Win10 (the OS) that
isn't in WinXP or Win7 that is useful to you, as a user?
Paul
2018-04-30 05:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
This is likely good if it's true.
Can 64-bit Win10 use more ram than 64-bit Win7?
Windows XP and Vista can use RAM up to 128GB only.
Windows 7 = 192GB.
Windows 8 = 512GB.
Windows 10 = 2TB.
What's wrong with this, is a lack of large page support.

Who cares if you have 2TB of RAM, if every access to it,
takes granular page table walks (4K pages). This does
affect application speed, for anything that might have
actually taken advantage of 2TB of RAM. Imagine how
long it would take to even initialize that much RAM
(especially if some poorly crafted boot code in Windows 10
has a memory size dependency).

There are a few issues like that, which the tech wizards
at Microsoft aren't interested in fixing.

1) Large pages for consumer versions (when large
amounts of RAM are present). At least leave a working
registry entry so we can play with it if we want.
If mixing page sizes is a runtime disaster, we can
just turn it off again. (I want this for my RAMDisk,
which uses most of my excess RAM. The RAMDisk is
effectively a static allocation at startup.)

Many times we've been promised large pages, but
it... just... doesn't... work.

2) Adjusting Interrupt Limiter for whizzy new hardware.
(It's possible WinXP-era limits are still in place.)
The limit used to be around the 10K to 15K per second
range or so. My SSD can probably do around 85K IOPS.

3) Slug-slow NTFS stack. Fix it.

4) Explorer handling of large folders. (If only it
was as good as the handling "dir" manages in
Command Prompt! "Dir" on large folders is amazing!!!)

So while in 2018, we can have Chocolate Malted Poo Emojis,
we can't have improvements that actually count for
something. Why buy an 8700K, if it's only held back ?
Why buy NVMe storage ? All the efforts of hardware
companies are just wasted.

Paul
JJ
2018-04-30 06:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
This is likely good if it's true.
Can 64-bit Win10 use more ram than 64-bit Win7?
Windows XP and Vista can use RAM up to 128GB only.
Windows 7 = 192GB.
Windows 8 = 512GB.
Windows 10 = 2TB.
What's wrong with this, is a lack of large page support.
Who cares if you have 2TB of RAM, if every access to it,
takes granular page table walks (4K pages). This does
affect application speed, for anything that might have
actually taken advantage of 2TB of RAM. Imagine how
long it would take to even initialize that much RAM
(especially if some poorly crafted boot code in Windows 10
has a memory size dependency).
There are a few issues like that, which the tech wizards
at Microsoft aren't interested in fixing.
1) Large pages for consumer versions (when large
amounts of RAM are present). At least leave a working
registry entry so we can play with it if we want.
If mixing page sizes is a runtime disaster, we can
just turn it off again. (I want this for my RAMDisk,
which uses most of my excess RAM. The RAMDisk is
effectively a static allocation at startup.)
Many times we've been promised large pages, but
it... just... doesn't... work.
2) Adjusting Interrupt Limiter for whizzy new hardware.
(It's possible WinXP-era limits are still in place.)
The limit used to be around the 10K to 15K per second
range or so. My SSD can probably do around 85K IOPS.
3) Slug-slow NTFS stack. Fix it.
4) Explorer handling of large folders. (If only it
was as good as the handling "dir" manages in
Command Prompt! "Dir" on large folders is amazing!!!)
So while in 2018, we can have Chocolate Malted Poo Emojis,
we can't have improvements that actually count for
something. Why buy an 8700K, if it's only held back ?
Why buy NVMe storage ? All the efforts of hardware
companies are just wasted.
Paul
Well said. Or... complained.

If they aren't fixed, even on Windows 10, then there would be no difference
on having Windows 10.

Also... I suspect that the RAM limit is just a business strategy. It's
64-bit for crying out loud. It's not difficult or complicating to increase
the page table.

Explorer's major slowdown is due to its need to display the icon, and
optionaly the file type.
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 16:14:59 UTC
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Post by Paul
3) Slug-slow NTFS stack. Fix it.
Do you have any examples of its sluggish performance? You've been very
informative so far.
Paul
2018-04-30 18:29:03 UTC
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Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by Paul
3) Slug-slow NTFS stack. Fix it.
Do you have any examples of its sluggish performance? You've been very
informative so far.
Seek, access, stat(), Agent Ransack search: somewhere between 4000 and 10000
files per second.

Doesn't particularly seem to matter if accessed files are
already in the System Read Cache.

SATA SSD 85000 IOPS capability

NVMe SSD several times higher than SATA SSD capability

This means that people spending money on fancy storage,
aren't getting their moneys worth.

*******

File creation test (where file fits within $MFT on NTFS)
versus file creation on Linux TMPFS.

NTFS - about 4000 files per second created, in a large directory
- compiled with MinGW.
- test stopped, because it was going to take too long to complete
- when a file is small enough, it's stored inside the $MFT entry
and doesn't use regular clusters.

TMPFS - about 186000 files per second created (using the
same program, and compiling on GCC for Linux).
- finished in about 30 seconds or so.

The NTFS storage device in the test was a RAMDisk.
So we can't blame the lethargy on "seek time".
TMPFS is the Linux equivalent of a RAMDisk.
Ubuntu Studio LiveDVD used, because it has 8 million inodes for the test case.

I don't expect a journaled file system to go all that fast.
You'd probably find similar performance problems
in EXT4 if you looked. But I have the feeling that
not enough work has been done on NTFS. They *are*
adding features to NTFS, but it's for the purpose
or torturing people. It's not practical stuff.

As an example, use the Format command in Windows 10, and
notice there are new cluster size options. All the way back
to WinXP, the max cluster was 64KB (the default is 4KB).
Win10 supports even larger choices. But, there's no backward
compatibility. If I plug the volume with the larger clusters
into WinXP, all it does is give me a "Que?" as it doesn't
comprehend what that partition is, and can't mount it.
Naturally, when that "extra fat" NTFS hits Linux, it's
not going to be able to mount it either. Smells of
"exclusivity" kinda. There are other tricks, such
as using "compactOS:Always" as a way to prevent Linux
from performing certain operations on system files.
Since that one is based on a Reparse Point, Linux will not
be able to respond to that one at all. Which means you
must do "compactOS:Never" before heading to Linux. And even
then, I can find files that are still buggered, just not in
System32.

They mess around, but "only to break stuff".

Paul
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 13:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I only need the last one, though...
The ability to run Microsoft Edge isn't much of a feature though. It's
a pretty bad browser IMO but I use it only because it loads so fast
and doesn't require an additional installation.
JJ
2018-04-30 14:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
The ability to run Microsoft Edge isn't much of a feature though. It's
a pretty bad browser IMO but I use it only because it loads so fast
and doesn't require an additional installation.
Yes, that's true after some more thought. It's not an OS functionality. So,
scratch that.

What are the things that you consider as bad? Please do compare with other
browsers.
Mike S
2018-04-30 22:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I only need the last one, though...
The ability to run Microsoft Edge isn't much of a feature though. It's
a pretty bad browser IMO but I use it only because it loads so fast
and doesn't require an additional installation.
LOL, "it's not a feature, it's a bug".
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 23:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike S
Post by Doomsdrzej
Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
- Scale text and GUI up to 200%. e.g. for 4K+ monitors.
- Run consoles in full screen mode. But still in graphics video mode,
though.
- Run "app" applications. i.e. those from Windows Store.
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I only need the last one, though...
The ability to run Microsoft Edge isn't much of a feature though. It's
a pretty bad browser IMO but I use it only because it loads so fast
and doesn't require an additional installation.
LOL, "it's not a feature, it's a bug".
I wouldn't go that far. It's a swift browser with just enough
functionality to be the primary one but I doubt anyone other than
myself would use it over Chrome, Firefox or Vivaldi.
Mayayana
2018-05-01 00:37:15 UTC
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"Doomsdrzej" <***@nsn.s> wrote

| I wouldn't go that far. It's a swift browser with just enough
| functionality to be the primary one but I doubt anyone other than
| myself would use it over Chrome, Firefox or Vivaldi.

I actually block it on my own website. If I
detect Edge or IE11 I show a message explaining
that Microsoft have broken their browser, and
thus my website, and that people can use IE11
and set compatibility for my site, or they can use
*any* other browser except Edge.

Edge not only broke all of IE-specific functionality.
It also won't run on anything but Win10. In that
sense it's even less a mainstream browser than Safari.
If webmasters have to buy a new computer just to
test a browser then it's a niche browser.

Even if I could easily test with Edge, I already
have a whole set of webpages just to accommodate
IE. I'm not about to create a 3rd set, where 2 sets
cater to Microsoft and the 3rd renders fine in all
other browsers.
Paul
2018-05-01 01:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| I wouldn't go that far. It's a swift browser with just enough
| functionality to be the primary one but I doubt anyone other than
| myself would use it over Chrome, Firefox or Vivaldi.
I actually block it on my own website. If I
detect Edge or IE11 I show a message explaining
that Microsoft have broken their browser, and
thus my website, and that people can use IE11
and set compatibility for my site, or they can use
*any* other browser except Edge.
Edge not only broke all of IE-specific functionality.
It also won't run on anything but Win10. In that
sense it's even less a mainstream browser than Safari.
If webmasters have to buy a new computer just to
test a browser then it's a niche browser.
Even if I could easily test with Edge, I already
have a whole set of webpages just to accommodate
IE. I'm not about to create a 3rd set, where 2 sets
cater to Microsoft and the 3rd renders fine in all
other browsers.
If you were serious about testing MSEdge, you'd check
the modern.ie webpage (the domain has been changed so
it won't scare people quite as much). The Win10 machines
have actual expiry dates, whereas some of the older platforms
didn't. For example, I have a Win7 Enterprise version they
were pushing from here, that still boots (but will reboot
after half an hour), so I can do some limited testing
without having to worry about activation or re-arm issues.

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/#downloads

There's also mention of something called BrowserStack,
whatever that is.

I'm running Win10 in a VM, on a WinXP machine, to give
you some idea how far back you can go on a host. But this
config won't last forever. The hosting software has received
its last update.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-05-01 02:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote

| If you were serious about testing MSEdge, you'd check
| the modern.ie webpage

I'm serious about not testing it. If Microsoft wants
to make a broken, niche browser I'm not going to
waste my time trying to accommodate it. The only
way I might support it would be if they made a version
for Win7. Then I'd try it and if it were standards
compliant, as they claim -- if it rendered my non-IE
pages well -- then I'd give it those pages. But I
won't write new pages just for Edge. And I won't
give Edge the pages I give to other browsers
without knowing for sure that it can handle them.

I also won't bend over backward to test something
they've deliberately made incompatible, not only
with other OSs, but with all other versions of
Windows!

I actually take some satisfaction in doing my
part to thwart Edge working. If they want to
make a browser they should do it, and stop
trying to use it to keep people on Windows.
Doomsdrzej
2018-05-01 15:27:49 UTC
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On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:37:15 -0400, "Mayayana"
Post by Mayayana
| I wouldn't go that far. It's a swift browser with just enough
| functionality to be the primary one but I doubt anyone other than
| myself would use it over Chrome, Firefox or Vivaldi.
I actually block it on my own website. If I
detect Edge or IE11 I show a message explaining
that Microsoft have broken their browser, and
thus my website, and that people can use IE11
and set compatibility for my site, or they can use
*any* other browser except Edge.
Edge not only broke all of IE-specific functionality.
It also won't run on anything but Win10. In that
sense it's even less a mainstream browser than Safari.
If webmasters have to buy a new computer just to
test a browser then it's a niche browser.
Even if I could easily test with Edge, I already
have a whole set of webpages just to accommodate
IE. I'm not about to create a 3rd set, where 2 sets
cater to Microsoft and the 3rd renders fine in all
other browsers.
I don't blame you for doing so since I can't trust Edge to follow
standards (given Microsoft's history) or even provide as much
functionality as the competition. Still, I enjoy simplicity in
browsing and Edge allows me as much of that as I can ask for. I know
that Vivaldi, my previous choice, is better but I stopped caring.
Mark Lloyd
2018-04-30 17:48:05 UTC
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Post by JJ
Post by Bob J Jones
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY can you do on Windows 10 that you just can't do
on Windows XP or Windows 7 (that is related directly to the OS)?
- Use larger RAM. i.e. the physical memory.
If your system has more than 192GB. I don't expect many systems have
that much.

I found this page that lists the RAM limits of different versions of
Windows (XP - 10): https://www.ricksdailytips.com/windows-memory-limits/
Post by JJ
- Use new features/functions of DirectX v12. i.e. better 3D graphics. IOTW,
play the latest games.
[snip]
Post by JJ
- Use Microsoft Edge web browser.
I only need the last one, though...
The only time I use Edge is when I want to see how a website looks in
different browsers.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Put your trust in Allah, but tie up your camel first." -- Arab proverb
Paul in Houston TX
2018-04-30 04:00:24 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
If you have a Kaby Lake, 6th gen Xeon, or a Ryzen then there will be no
win7 functionality without a hack that most people would not want to attempt.
JJ
2018-04-30 04:25:43 UTC
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Post by Paul in Houston TX
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
If you have a Kaby Lake, 6th gen Xeon, or a Ryzen then there will be no
win7 functionality without a hack that most people would not want to attempt.
That's more like a bug of old OS, than new OS feature. There isn't any
patch/update, so the only workaround is to hack it - where technically, both
patch/update and hack, do the same thing. It's just a matter of official and
unofficial, thoroughly tested or not, and was done by professional or not.

I'm guessing that Windows 10 isn't really required to use those CPUs.
Windows 8 or 8.1 could be usable for those CPUs.
Paul in Houston TX
2018-04-30 04:55:59 UTC
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Post by JJ
Post by Paul in Houston TX
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
If you have a Kaby Lake, 6th gen Xeon, or a Ryzen then there will be no
win7 functionality without a hack that most people would not want to attempt.
That's more like a bug of old OS, than new OS feature. There isn't any
patch/update, so the only workaround is to hack it - where technically, both
patch/update and hack, do the same thing. It's just a matter of official and
unofficial, thoroughly tested or not, and was done by professional or not.
I'm guessing that Windows 10 isn't really required to use those CPUs.
Windows 8 or 8.1 could be usable for those CPUs.
It was designed that way. There is also a hack to get most w10 updates.
Doomsdrzej
2018-04-30 16:03:05 UTC
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On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:00:24 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
Post by Paul in Houston TX
Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
If you have a Kaby Lake, 6th gen Xeon, or a Ryzen then there will be no
win7 functionality without a hack that most people would not want to attempt.
Preventing certain processors from running on an older but still-used
version of your operating system seems like a dick move by Microsoft.
Sam E
2018-04-30 17:53:07 UTC
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On 04/29/2018 11:00 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

[snip]
Post by Paul in Houston TX
If you have a Kaby Lake, 6th gen Xeon, or a Ryzen then there will be no
win7 functionality without a hack that most people would not want to attempt.
You could install Linux and run Windows in a virtual machine. It makes
backup easy too, the whole Windows disk is a file in Linux.
Mike S
2018-04-30 11:37:53 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP
<snip>
Run modern browsers so you can render modern web pages correctly.
Mayayana
2018-04-30 16:24:27 UTC
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"Mike S" <***@yahoo.com> wrote

| > What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP
| <snip>
| Run modern browsers so you can render modern web pages correctly.


?? I'm running Firefox 52. It's true that the very latest
FF won't install on XP. But the very latest is not the
same as "modern". Modern is a sneaky word. It implies
a value judgement -- up-to-date as opposed to
old-fashioned. But it actually means nothing in this
context.

My first memory of its use was with Microsoft calling
Metro trinket apps "modern". Microsoft are very adept
at twisting language to make marketing look like facts.
They were trying to define phone apps on computers,
presented as a service, as being "next-gen computing".

If you look at the average commercial webpage you'll
see that most still accommodate IE 7 or 8. What they
increasingly don't accommodate is people who disable
script, thus disabling their spyware. I keep seeing new
tricks to block functionality: CSS panels that block the
page and get set to display: none by script. Wacky
IMG tags that go to great lengths not to allow the
SRC to work....

But conversely, they try hard to accommodate browsers
and OSs because they want as many visitors as possible.

Here's a sample that shows how much they try to be
compatible. I just went to nyt.com and looked at the
source. This is at the top:

------------------------------------------
<!--[if (gt IE 9)|!(IE)]> <!--> <html lang="en" class="no-js
edition-domestic app-homepage" itemscope
xmlns:og="http://opengraphprotocol.org/schema/"> <!--<![endif]-->
<!--[if IE 9]> <html lang="en" class="no-js ie9 lt-ie10 edition-domestic
app-homepage" xmlns:og="http://opengraphprotocol.org/schema/"> <![endif]-->
<!--[if IE 8]> <html lang="en" class="no-js ie8 lt-ie10 lt-ie9
edition-domestic app-homepage"
xmlns:og="http://opengraphprotocol.org/schema/"> <![endif]-->
<!--[if (lt IE 8)]> <html lang="en" class="no-js lt-ie10 lt-ie9 lt-ie8
edition-domestic app-homepage"
xmlns:og="http://opengraphprotocol.org/schema/"> <![endif]-->
-------------------------------------------------------------

That code indicates that they have different page versions
for everything from IE7 (maybe even 6) up to IE11. Why don't
they do similar for other browsers? Because the others are
standards compliant. Most pages will work fine in just about
any version of any other browser. So browser usability has
almost nothing to do with OS version. Though I should note
that people on 56K modems will have trouble with the wildly
bloated 2-5 MB pages that are common today. :)

Even if I started using Win10 today I wouldn't install
the latest Firefox because it breaks some of my
extensions. Chrome? Spyware. Edge? That's not even
a serious question.
Brian Gregory
2018-04-30 18:32:17 UTC
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Post by Bob J Jones
What can you do on Windows 10 that you can't do on Windows XP or Windows 7?
Stated more clearly, what FUNCTIONALITY is of importance to you, that you
do on Windows 10 by virtue of the operating system alone?
There are already obvious things, so let's get them out of the way first.
What top-ten FUNCTIONALITY is on Windows 10 related directly to the OS?
1. 64-bit (I say it 1st only because others will but it isn't OS related)
2. Subscriptions & updates (if you want them - I don't - but some do)
3. Support (but that's a marketing decision - not technical functionality)
4. Cascaded menus (but this can be fudged on the newer operating systems)
Surely that's 4 things you can do in any Windows since and including XP?

I don't think there is anything at all.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
Bob J Jones
2018-05-01 06:11:29 UTC
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Post by Brian Gregory
I don't think there is anything at all.
This seems to be the best we can collectively come up with that all will
agree upon as functionality in Windows 10 that isn't in Win7 or WinXP.

1. Windows Store apps
2. Cortana searches
3. DirectX 12 in the OS
4. Access 2TB of RAM (instead of 512GB, 192GB, & 128GB previously)
5. HiDPI scale text & GUI to 200% (not just 150% previously)
6. Full-screen console mode
7. ?
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?

I was expecting a lot more than just that.
Michael Logies
2018-05-01 06:16:14 UTC
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On Tue, 1 May 2018 06:11:29 +0000 (UTC), Bob J Jones
Post by Bob J Jones
I was expecting a lot more than just that.
You are missing compresson of RAM and Bitlocker I wrote about in
alt.comp.os.windows-10.
R.Wieser
2018-05-01 07:55:15 UTC
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Bob,
Post by Bob J Jones
6. Full-screen console mode
You can scratch that from the list. Under XP it just needs a MODE CON.

But that's something to consider when deciding to switch over to Win 10 ?
Really ?

As for the other points, only #4 (a larger addres-space access) seems to be
"technical functionality".

Ofcourse, DirectX 12 (un)availability is probably a deal-breaker to a "must
be able to play the newest-of-the-newest" gamer crowd.

Just as HiDPI upscaling could be to the (AFAIK dropped by MS) "media center"
type of users.

Just as the last two, Cortana searches and Windows store apps could be for
the gadget and consumer type of user (as in: buy-play-forget ).

So none of the above are actually a "technical functionality" of the *OS*,
but just (for the time being) "only delivered and/or working with Windows
10" kind of software/services (a cheap way to increase percieved value).


And aint it funny how its hard, even for the crowd in these newsgroups (XP,
W7 and W10), to get a list with an actual 'technical functionality'
difference, even for OSes more than a decade-and-a-half apart ? What does
that tell you ? :-)


By the way: Do add a list with things Win 10 *can't* do, and Win XP or 7
still can. Suddenly coming to the realisation that a piece of software or
hardware won't run under the new OS anymore, and your (hobby/professional)
life depends on it isn't quite what you would call "funny" ...

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Michael Logies
2018-05-01 08:19:41 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
By the way: Do add a list with things Win 10 *can't* do, and Win XP or 7
still can.
Worst for me: The GUI for changing access rights in the NTFS for
several (marked) files or directories has disappeared. Now file for
file has to be changed...
NTFS Permissions Tools help a bit, but development has stopped, I
think:
http://www.freewarefiles.com/NTFS-Permissions-Tools_program_104491.html
Mayayana
2018-05-01 12:35:19 UTC
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"Bob J Jones" <***@startMail.com> wrote

|
| This seems to be the best we can collectively come up with that all will
| agree upon as functionality in Windows 10 that isn't in Win7 or WinXP.
|
| 1. Windows Store apps
| 2. Cortana searches
| 3. DirectX 12 in the OS
| 4. Access 2TB of RAM (instead of 512GB, 192GB, & 128GB previously)
| 5. HiDPI scale text & GUI to 200% (not just 150% previously)
| 6. Full-screen console mode

MS Office 2019. Was that mentioned?

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsitpro/2018/02/01/changes-to-office-and-windows-servicing-and-support/

That's going to push a lot of suckers into
Win10. Interestingly, MSO 2019 will only be
available in Click-To-Run form, which is a
transitional format, essentially a "cloud app"
without the subscription.

It's becoming like one of those dreary sci-fi
movies, where a nasty, autocratic ruler crushes
life inside the gates of a protected city, while
life outside the walls of the city is free but
dangerous.
Microsoft are quickly moving toward total
control of a kiosk Windows computer, while
the rest of us will have to cobble together
Linux, older Windows versions, and whatever
hardware still works with the older Windows
versions.

So I guess that's Windows 10 killer app #8:
Protection under Microsoft's dictatorship. :)
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