Discussion:
Converting From 1 TB to 2 TB via Macrium Reflect Re-Image: Partitions?
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(PeteCresswell)
2018-06-19 00:16:26 UTC
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I want to replace a 1 TB drive that's on it's last legs with a 2-TB drive.

I imaged the sick drive with Macrium Reflect, creating a single file.

Here's what the drive looked like in Disk Manager:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rEFsF2H9F7mNJXjRA

When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data" partition
because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
new unused space.

I've tried to fool Mother Nature a number of ways - but with no success.

It seems like that HP_RECOVERY is both essential to the day-to-day operation
of the system ("Recovery" ????) AND is required to be the third partition
because I've tried to force the issue by allocating a beeeeg "Data" and then
restoring HP_RECOVERY at the end - but to no avail.

Is this a fool's errand?

My agenda is to make that extra TB available as part of the "Data" partition
so I have almost 1.5 TB available for "Data".
--
Pete Cresswell
VanguardLH
2018-06-19 00:42:37 UTC
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Post by (PeteCresswell)
I want to replace a 1 TB drive that's on it's last legs with a 2-TB
drive. I imaged the sick drive with Macrium Reflect, creating a
single file. When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a
system that works, but the additional space is unavailable for
expansion of the "Data" partition because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the
middle - between existing "Data" and the new unused space.
I've tried to fool Mother Nature a number of ways - but with no success.
That means you may get suggestions that duplicate your unidentified
"number of ways".
Post by (PeteCresswell)
My agenda is to make that extra TB available as part of the "Data" partition
so I have almost 1.5 TB available for "Data".
When you restored using Macrium, you could've enlarged the target or
destination partition. When presented with the target partition, you
could've resized it. Cannot resize smaller than the restore image but
can enlarge (image gets restored and partition gets enlarged). Since
you didn't do it at that time, you can enlarge the partition using a
variety of free partitioning tools, like:

Easeus Partition Master
https://www.easeus.com/partition-manager/epm-free.html

Aomei Partition Assistant Standard
https://www.aomeitech.com/pa/standard.html
(looks like a clone of Easeus' product)

Minitool Partition Wizard
https://www.minitool.com/partition-manager/partition-wizard-home.html

Paragon Partition Manager Free
https://www.paragon-software.com/free/pm-express/

Active@ Partition Manager
http://www.lsoft.net/partman.aspx

and good old Gparted (as a bootable CD or USB drive)
https://gparted.org/download.php
Paul
2018-06-19 01:04:10 UTC
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Post by (PeteCresswell)
I want to replace a 1 TB drive that's on it's last legs with a 2-TB drive.
I imaged the sick drive with Macrium Reflect, creating a single file.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rEFsF2H9F7mNJXjRA
When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data" partition
because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
new unused space.
I've tried to fool Mother Nature a number of ways - but with no success.
It seems like that HP_RECOVERY is both essential to the day-to-day operation
of the system ("Recovery" ????) AND is required to be the third partition
because I've tried to force the issue by allocating a beeeeg "Data" and then
restoring HP_RECOVERY at the end - but to no avail.
Is this a fool's errand?
My agenda is to make that extra TB available as part of the "Data" partition
so I have almost 1.5 TB available for "Data".
I had an answer all written up, but had to start over again.

Thought of an easier way.

*******

Original setup:

P1 P2 P4 P3
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+---------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: | DATA | HP Recovery |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+---------------+

You will need to use the Macrium Restore function *3* times.

1) Restore the first two partitions.

P1 P2
+-----+-----------------+-------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+

2) Restore the HP Recovery partition, by dragging and dropping it onto
the end of the new drive.

P1 P2 P3
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: | HP Recovery |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+

3) Restore the DATA partition. Drag and drop DATA onto the end of the
target drive. Hit the NEXT button. Hit the BACK button. Right-click
the DATA partition to get the "resize/align" menu. Resize the partition
to fill the disk.

P1 P2 P3 P4
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+--------------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: | HP Recovery | DATA |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+--------------------+

No other tools needed.

You can use "diskpart" to select disk 0, list partitions,
and see which partition is in which partition slot. I think
the third partition in your source drive, is in the fourth slot
of the partition table. And I'm hoping that no harm will be done
when putting the partitions back. You see, not only are you
cloning the disk, you're also putting the partitions back
in "partition table order". Any software using partition
numbers should remain happy, as a result of the original mistake.

HTH,
Paul
VanguardLH
2018-06-19 05:15:19 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by (PeteCresswell)
I want to replace a 1 TB drive that's on it's last legs with a 2-TB drive.
I imaged the sick drive with Macrium Reflect, creating a single file.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rEFsF2H9F7mNJXjRA
When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data" partition
because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
new unused space.
P1 P2 P4 P3
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+---------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: | DATA | HP Recovery |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+---------------+
You will need to use the Macrium Restore function *3* times.
1) Restore the first two partitions.
P1 P2
+-----+-----------------+-------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+
2) Restore the HP Recovery partition, by dragging and dropping it onto
the end of the new drive.
P1 P2 P3
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: | HP Recovery |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+
3) Restore the DATA partition. Drag and drop DATA onto the end of the
target drive. Hit the NEXT button. Hit the BACK button. Right-click
the DATA partition to get the "resize/align" menu. Resize the partition
to fill the disk.
P1 P2 P3 P4
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+--------------------+
| MBR | System Reserved | OS C: | HP Recovery | DATA |
+-----+-----------------+-------------+---------------+--------------------+
No other tools needed.
You can use "diskpart" to select disk 0, list partitions,
and see which partition is in which partition slot. I think
the third partition in your source drive, is in the fourth slot
of the partition table. And I'm hoping that no harm will be done
when putting the partitions back. You see, not only are you
cloning the disk, you're also putting the partitions back
in "partition table order". Any software using partition
numbers should remain happy, as a result of the original mistake.
HTH,
Paul
Not sure why he has to do any restores. Just use one of the partition
managers to move and resize the partitions.

The recovery partition is in the middle of the new 2 TB drive (which
would've been the end of the old 1 TB drive). After the recovery
partition on the new 2 TB drive is unallocated space.

.-.------------------.----------.--------------------.
|*| C: (Windows) | recovery | unallocated |
'-'------------------'----------'--------------------'
^
|__ MBR/UEFI

Use a partition manager to:

- Drag the recovery partition to the end of the unallocated space on the
new 2 TB drive. Now there will be unallocated space between the first
partition (Windows) and the recovery partition moved to the end.

.--- move to end --->
.-.------------------.----'-----.--------------------.
|*| C: (Windows) | recovery | unallocated |
'-'------------------'----------'--------------------'
becomes
.-.------------------.--------------------.----------.
|*| C: (Windows) | unallocated | recovery |
'-'------------------'--------------------'----------'

- Then resize the 1st partition so it consumes the unallocated space.

.-.------------------.--------------------.----------.
|*| C: (Windows) X-- enlarge C: --> | recovery |
'-'------------------'--------------------'----------'
becomes
.-.---------------------------------------.----------.
|*| C: (Windows) | recovery |
'-'---------------------------------------'----------'

Just do a partition move (recovery) and then enlarge a partition (C:).
Moving and resizing of partitions is usually faster than doing restores.

I was surprised that Macrium Reflect did not include a partitioning
manager. However, there are LOTS of choices and for free.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-19 05:30:40 UTC
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In message <1hk80vfe7ax12$***@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <***@nguard.LH>
writes:
[]
Post by VanguardLH
I was surprised that Macrium Reflect did not include a partitioning
manager. However, there are LOTS of choices and for free.
It does allow a _resize_ during restore (up or down, IIRR), though I
prefer to do that afterwards with a PM. (I use the EaseUS one, since it
works for me.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A clean, neat and orderly desk is a sign of a sick mind. (G6JPG's mind is
clearly extremely healthy ...)
VanguardLH
2018-06-19 06:47:03 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by VanguardLH
I was surprised that Macrium Reflect did not include a partitioning
manager. However, there are LOTS of choices and for free.
It does allow a _resize_ during restore (up or down, IIRR), though I
prefer to do that afterwards with a PM. (I use the EaseUS one, since it
works for me.)
I mentioned that in my first reply. I remember deciding where to
restore, enlarging the partition, and probably other partitioning tasks.
However, Reflect does not have a partition manager built into it to
allow using it to do all partitioning tasks. If you change the drives
often (add, delete, change partitioning, step on the MBR/UEFI bootstrap
code with a standard one, and other more advanced tasks), you really
need to use a partition manager. Most require you to install. Minitool
lets you run it from a bootable device as does GParted.
Char Jackson
2018-06-19 15:47:52 UTC
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Post by Paul
I had an answer all written up, but had to start over again.
Thought of an easier way.
You will need to use the Macrium Restore function *3* times.
LOL

No, a partition manager sorts it right out. A second restore is
completely unnecessary, let alone a third. If this was your "easier
way", I wonder what the first approach could have been. ;-)

I commend your thoroughness, but sometimes the solution is right in
plain sight.
--
Char Jackson
Mayayana
2018-06-19 11:42:35 UTC
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"(PeteCresswell)" <***@y.Invalid> wrote

| When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
| but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data"
partition
| because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
| new unused space.
|
If it were me I'd clean out all the muck. Assuming Paul's
diagram is correct (I can't see your picture without
alowing Google to run script)....

Do a restore and clean that up. Install your software.
Get rid of System Reserved by putting the boot files on C.
Make a disk image of that, so you have a fresh copy. Then
get rid of the HP partition. So you just have C and data
partitions. It's more work now but easier and more efficient
for the future.

I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
Ed Cryer
2018-06-19 13:40:46 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
| but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data"
partition
| because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
| new unused space.
|
If it were me I'd clean out all the muck. Assuming Paul's
diagram is correct (I can't see your picture without
alowing Google to run script)....
Do a restore and clean that up. Install your software.
Get rid of System Reserved by putting the boot files on C.
Make a disk image of that, so you have a fresh copy. Then
get rid of the HP partition. So you just have C and data
partitions. It's more work now but easier and more efficient
for the future.
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
It's the only way to get back to "ex factory" state.
OK, so not many people want that (including myself), but some do; to
give to a friend, pass on to a charity, fill their system with loads of
junk and then want a way back.

Ed
Mayayana
2018-06-19 15:48:35 UTC
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"Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote

|
| It's the only way to get back to "ex factory" state.

I understand that. But that can also be done by
making a disk image. I would then clean it up and
install software, before imaging, but if people like
an HP logo on their desktop then that's fine, too.

A disk image is also safer and simpler. If you
leave the restore partition and the separate system
boot partition then if the hard disk dies you've
lost everything. And if you want to put in a
new hard disk you're stuck with Pete's problem:
A convoluted system of unnecessary, interdependent
partitions that have to all be copied as-is.

With disk images there's no risk if the disk dies
and there can be as much backup of the images
as desired.
Ed Cryer
2018-06-19 16:33:52 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
|
| It's the only way to get back to "ex factory" state.
I understand that. But that can also be done by
making a disk image. I would then clean it up and
install software, before imaging, but if people like
an HP logo on their desktop then that's fine, too.
A disk image is also safer and simpler. If you
leave the restore partition and the separate system
boot partition then if the hard disk dies you've
lost everything. And if you want to put in a
A convoluted system of unnecessary, interdependent
partitions that have to all be copied as-is.
With disk images there's no risk if the disk dies
and there can be as much backup of the images
as desired.
I've just commissioned a new box of Win10 tricks. And I followed my
usual course.
Find fault with this for me - and give me nightmares.
1. Run it up, set up account, drive it for a while to see how it feels
and handles. Look for any errors and warnings under Event manager;
especially in the Windows System Log.
2. Remove all the crapware. I do this manually, one by one.
3. Take two backups: a) Win Sys Image, b) Macrium C image.
4. Load browser, email prog, plus tons of regulars like Foxit,
Irfanview, Sequoiaview, MS Office .....
5. Repeat 3 above, which will be repeated from now on very regularly.

Notice that I retain the OEM Recovery partition. They never exceed about
17GB. I'm not quite sure (frontal-lobe-consciously, that is) just why.
But I suspect my subconscious does; it's another safety layer to fall
back on, and it gets added to every Macrium image I take thereafter.
BTW, in case you're going to say that that's adding time to the Macrium
backups, let me tell you that the latest one took 23 mins for over 100GB.

Ed
Mayayana
2018-06-19 17:00:08 UTC
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"Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote

| I've just commissioned a new box of Win10 tricks. And I followed my
| usual course.
| Find fault with this for me - and give me nightmares.

I didn't know I was the dark cloud guy. :)

I think whatever works for you is fine. I view
my approach as the best for a number of reasons,
but your reasons might be different. Also, I've used
BootIt for this for many years. I don't know whether
Macrium has all the same functionality. I don't try
to save money when it comes to disk tools. BootIt
was $40 but it makes all disk-related jobs simple.

For me it's been about partitions and disk images
since Win9x. Back then I used Drive Image and Partition
Magic to enable multi-booting and maintain disk images.

Every computer I build or repair gets the
same treatment: Install, clean it up, get rid of extra
boot or recovery partitions, add data partitions,
make a disk image of a basic, cleaned up system and
back that up to both a data partition and DVDs.
Also, I always have 2 disks installed in my own box,
in case one dies.

So every computer I have has multiple disk image
backups ready to go in if anything goes wrong. No
muss, no fuss, no boot- or restore- partition mess
to deal with. No dependency on hard disk life.

My Win9x images used to always fit on a CD. My
basic XP disk image fits on a CD. My full XP image, with all
software set up, easily fits on a DVD. My Win7 backups
easily fit on 2 DVDs.

As far as speed, I'm not concerned about that
because once I have disk images I only back up data.
I can do that quickly and easily while I'm doing other
things because I separate it into categories: 1) Timely
data that changes, like work receipts, email, etc. 2) Data
that rarely changes and only needs occasional backup:
graphics, video, software installers, docs for various
things, etc.
It all gets copied to both disks. The timely backup
data is all on one partition and I just write it periodically
to a DVD.

If you're backing up 100 GB that's not really a disk
image. That's just backup. And you need an extra disk
or large size USB stick to store it because 95% of
what you're backing up isn't necessary.

I think of it like a tractor trailer. The OS/software is the
tractor. The data is in the trailer. (Data partitions.) They're
two fundamentally different kinds of binaries. One's the
tools, the other's the content.
It makes no sense to have the two stuck together, in
the same way that if you're shipping a truck full of produce
you don't need to lose it all just because the engine breaks
down in the desert. Rather, you hook up a new tractor
front-end and keep driving.

But I know that some people deeply disagree with
that logic. Some people feel very strongly that data
partitions don't make sense....
There's no accounting for taste. :)
Ed Cryer
2018-06-19 17:22:48 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| I've just commissioned a new box of Win10 tricks. And I followed my
| usual course.
| Find fault with this for me - and give me nightmares.
I didn't know I was the dark cloud guy. :)
I think whatever works for you is fine. I view
my approach as the best for a number of reasons,
but your reasons might be different. Also, I've used
BootIt for this for many years. I don't know whether
Macrium has all the same functionality. I don't try
to save money when it comes to disk tools. BootIt
was $40 but it makes all disk-related jobs simple.
For me it's been about partitions and disk images
since Win9x. Back then I used Drive Image and Partition
Magic to enable multi-booting and maintain disk images.
Every computer I build or repair gets the
same treatment: Install, clean it up, get rid of extra
boot or recovery partitions, add data partitions,
make a disk image of a basic, cleaned up system and
back that up to both a data partition and DVDs.
Also, I always have 2 disks installed in my own box,
in case one dies.
So every computer I have has multiple disk image
backups ready to go in if anything goes wrong. No
muss, no fuss, no boot- or restore- partition mess
to deal with. No dependency on hard disk life.
My Win9x images used to always fit on a CD. My
basic XP disk image fits on a CD. My full XP image, with all
software set up, easily fits on a DVD. My Win7 backups
easily fit on 2 DVDs.
As far as speed, I'm not concerned about that
because once I have disk images I only back up data.
I can do that quickly and easily while I'm doing other
things because I separate it into categories: 1) Timely
data that changes, like work receipts, email, etc. 2) Data
graphics, video, software installers, docs for various
things, etc.
It all gets copied to both disks. The timely backup
data is all on one partition and I just write it periodically
to a DVD.
If you're backing up 100 GB that's not really a disk
image. That's just backup. And you need an extra disk
or large size USB stick to store it because 95% of
what you're backing up isn't necessary.
I think of it like a tractor trailer. The OS/software is the
tractor. The data is in the trailer. (Data partitions.) They're
two fundamentally different kinds of binaries. One's the
tools, the other's the content.
It makes no sense to have the two stuck together, in
the same way that if you're shipping a truck full of produce
you don't need to lose it all just because the engine breaks
down in the desert. Rather, you hook up a new tractor
front-end and keep driving.
But I know that some people deeply disagree with
that logic. Some people feel very strongly that data
partitions don't make sense....
There's no accounting for taste. :)
I think the big PC manufacturers would agree with you about data
partitions. I've seen Acer, PcSpecialist and HP brand new PCs quite
recently, and they all came with partitions C and D; the latter named
"Data", the former something like Acer (C).
Mind you, everything is on the C. The D is empty, like Old Mother
Hubbard's cupboard.

Ed
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-19 20:16:29 UTC
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Ed Cryer <***@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:
[...]
Post by Ed Cryer
I think the big PC manufacturers would agree with you about data
partitions. I've seen Acer, PcSpecialist and HP brand new PCs quite
recently, and they all came with partitions C and D; the latter named
"Data", the former something like Acer (C).
Mind you, everything is on the C. The D is empty, like Old Mother
Hubbard's cupboard.
Out of interest: In your example(s), are C and D on disk, or is C on a
SSD and D on a HDD? And are these PCs 'desktops' or (also) laptops?

FWIW, lately, I see mostly ads for laptops with only a SSD, often not
larger than 256GB, or with a SSD and a 1 or 2TB HDD.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-19 20:21:27 UTC
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Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by Ed Cryer
I think the big PC manufacturers would agree with you about data
partitions. I've seen Acer, PcSpecialist and HP brand new PCs quite
recently, and they all came with partitions C and D; the latter named
"Data", the former something like Acer (C).
Mind you, everything is on the C. The D is empty, like Old Mother
Hubbard's cupboard.
Out of interest: In your example(s), are C and D on disk, or is C on a
SSD and D on a HDD? And are these PCs 'desktops' or (also) laptops?
Oops, typo:

Out of interest: In your example(s), are C and D one disk, or is C on a
SSD and D on a HDD? And are these PCs 'desktops' or (also) laptops?
Post by Frank Slootweg
FWIW, lately, I see mostly ads for laptops with only a SSD, often not
larger than 256GB, or with a SSD and a 1 or 2TB HDD.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-19 21:37:50 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
| I've just commissioned a new box of Win10 tricks. And I followed my
| usual course.
| Find fault with this for me - and give me nightmares.
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
If you're backing up 100 GB that's not really a disk
image. That's just backup. And you need an extra disk
or large size USB stick to store it because 95% of
what you're backing up isn't necessary.
I think of it like a tractor trailer. The OS/software is the
tractor. The data is in the trailer. (Data partitions.) They're
two fundamentally different kinds of binaries. One's the
tools, the other's the content.
The other way - the default, that you and I aren't fond of - is an RV.
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
It makes no sense to have the two stuck together, in
the same way that if you're shipping a truck full of produce
you don't need to lose it all just because the engine breaks
down in the desert. Rather, you hook up a new tractor
front-end and keep driving.
But I know that some people deeply disagree with
that logic. Some people feel very strongly that data
partitions don't make sense....
There's no accounting for taste. :)
I think the big PC manufacturers would agree with you about data
partitions. I've seen Acer, PcSpecialist and HP brand new PCs quite
recently, and they all came with partitions C and D; the latter named
"Data", the former something like Acer (C).
Mind you, everything is on the C. The D is empty, like Old Mother
Hubbard's cupboard.
Ed
Except that (a) they _default_ to making C: and D: the same size (though
can usually be adjusted if the user knows to do so at first turn-on when
these are set up), and (b) there _really_ needs to me a change by both
Microsoft and software producers, to make things _default_ - on
installation - to use D: if it exists.
And (b) is not going to happen, is it )-: - though I don't know why,
other than very petty saving of effort.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old people today - they don't know they're born! They should stay where they
belong: on the main stage at Glastonbury. - The Now Show, 2015-7-10&11
Ed Cryer
2018-06-19 21:48:39 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
| I've just commissioned a new box of Win10 tricks. And I followed my
| usual course.
| Find fault with this for me - and give me nightmares.
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
    If you're backing up 100 GB that's not really a disk
image. That's just backup. And you need an extra disk
or large size USB stick to store it because 95% of
what you're backing up isn't necessary.
    I think of it like a tractor trailer. The OS/software is the
tractor. The data is in the trailer. (Data partitions.) They're
two fundamentally different kinds of binaries. One's the
tools, the other's the content.
The other way - the default, that you and I aren't fond of - is an RV.
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
   It makes no sense to have the two stuck together, in
the same way that if you're shipping a truck full of produce
you don't need to lose it all just because the engine breaks
down in the desert. Rather, you hook up a new tractor
front-end and keep driving.
     But I know that some people deeply disagree with
that logic. Some people feel very strongly that data
partitions don't make sense....
    There's no accounting for taste. :)
I think the big PC manufacturers would agree with you about data
partitions. I've seen Acer, PcSpecialist and HP brand new PCs quite
recently, and they all came with partitions C and D; the latter named
"Data", the former something like Acer (C).
Mind you, everything is on the C. The D is empty, like Old Mother
Hubbard's cupboard.
Ed
Except that (a) they _default_ to making C: and D: the same size (though
can usually be adjusted if the user knows to do so at first turn-on when
these are set up), and (b) there _really_ needs to me a change by both
Microsoft and software producers, to make things _default_ - on
installation - to use D: if it exists.
And (b) is not going to happen, is it )-: - though I don't know why,
other than very petty saving of effort.
Yes. And that's why we've had people coming to us here. They form a plan
to create a C partition as small as possible, with the Data partition
holding Program Files etc. And they've screwed it up. They've done
things like simply cutting and pasting whole folders; and then the
system errors have accumulated until it overwhelms them.
Usually this involves installing a small-sized SSD.

Ed
Char Jackson
2018-06-19 23:00:34 UTC
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:37:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
| I've just commissioned a new box of Win10 tricks. And I followed my
| usual course.
| Find fault with this for me - and give me nightmares.
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
If you're backing up 100 GB that's not really a disk
image. That's just backup. And you need an extra disk
or large size USB stick to store it because 95% of
what you're backing up isn't necessary.
I think of it like a tractor trailer. The OS/software is the
tractor. The data is in the trailer. (Data partitions.) They're
two fundamentally different kinds of binaries. One's the
tools, the other's the content.
The other way - the default, that you and I aren't fond of - is an RV.
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
It makes no sense to have the two stuck together, in
the same way that if you're shipping a truck full of produce
you don't need to lose it all just because the engine breaks
down in the desert. Rather, you hook up a new tractor
front-end and keep driving.
But I know that some people deeply disagree with
that logic. Some people feel very strongly that data
partitions don't make sense....
There's no accounting for taste. :)
I think the big PC manufacturers would agree with you about data
partitions. I've seen Acer, PcSpecialist and HP brand new PCs quite
recently, and they all came with partitions C and D; the latter named
"Data", the former something like Acer (C).
Mind you, everything is on the C. The D is empty, like Old Mother
Hubbard's cupboard.
Ed
Except that (a) they _default_ to making C: and D: the same size (though
can usually be adjusted if the user knows to do so at first turn-on when
these are set up),
It's equally easy to resize partitions later, or as often as required.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
and (b) there _really_ needs to me a change by both
Microsoft and software producers, to make things _default_ - on
installation - to use D: if it exists.
And (b) is not going to happen, is it )-: - though I don't know why,
other than very petty saving of effort.
--
Char Jackson
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-19 16:07:33 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mayayana
| When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
| but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data"
partition
| because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
| new unused space.
|
If it were me I'd clean out all the muck. Assuming Paul's
diagram is correct (I can't see your picture without
alowing Google to run script)....
Do a restore and clean that up. Install your software.
Get rid of System Reserved by putting the boot files on C.
Make a disk image of that, so you have a fresh copy. Then
get rid of the HP partition. So you just have C and data
partitions. It's more work now but easier and more efficient
for the future.
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
It's the only way to get back to "ex factory" state.
OK, so not many people want that (including myself), but some do; to
give to a friend, pass on to a charity, fill their system with loads of
junk and then want a way back.
For this purpose I've made a (Macrium Reflect FREE) full image backup
of all partitions, *except* C: (etc.). Such a backup is rather small -
in my case 17.4GB (just a bit bigger than just the 'RECOVERY' [1]
partition (17.26GB)) - so keeping it 'forever' in case it's needed, is
mostly a non-issue.

[1] Also an HP system (HP Pavilion 15-p142nd laptop) with Windows 8.1,
but the partition is named 'RECOVERY', instead of 'HP_RECOVERY'.
Probably a (HP) 8.1 versus 7 difference.
(PeteCresswell)
2018-06-19 14:54:04 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.

But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty desktop
- so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
used day-to-day.

Vanguard, Paul, John, and you have given me hope.

I had thrown in the towel and just re-imaged to an old 1TB backup drive - but
now I think I will re-visit the scene with the 2TB drive.

First thing I will try is looking for Macrium's Resize-Partition option.

If that doesn't happen, I'll move on to Paul's approach and, if that does not
work out, will start looking for a partition manager that will do the job.

Seems pretty obvious that something else is going on that I am unaware of
vis-a-vis my incorrect assumption that the HP_RECOVERY partition was playing
an essential role.

The situation acts like there is a file (boot block?) somewhere that points
to Partition 0, Partition 1, Partition 2, and so-forth - and, when partitions
are moved around without changing that file, Bad Things happen.
--
Pete Cresswell
Char Jackson
2018-06-19 15:34:36 UTC
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Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Mayayana
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.
But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty desktop
- so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
used day-to-day.
Vanguard, Paul, John, and you have given me hope.
I had thrown in the towel and just re-imaged to an old 1TB backup drive - but
now I think I will re-visit the scene with the 2TB drive.
First thing I will try is looking for Macrium's Resize-Partition option.
If that doesn't happen, I'll move on to Paul's approach and, if that does not
work out, will start looking for a partition manager that will do the job.
I would recommend using VanguardLH's approach first. Grab a partition
manager and be amazed at how easy it is to do what you're trying to do.
My choice is the Minitool Partition Wizard, which he linked, but the
others should work as well.

No need to do another Macrium restore, and (sorry Paul!) no need to do
multiple restores. A partition manager will have you sorted within a few
minutes.
--
Char Jackson
Paul
2018-06-19 18:14:05 UTC
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Post by Char Jackson
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Mayayana
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.
But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty desktop
- so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
used day-to-day.
Vanguard, Paul, John, and you have given me hope.
I had thrown in the towel and just re-imaged to an old 1TB backup drive - but
now I think I will re-visit the scene with the 2TB drive.
First thing I will try is looking for Macrium's Resize-Partition option.
If that doesn't happen, I'll move on to Paul's approach and, if that does not
work out, will start looking for a partition manager that will do the job.
I would recommend using VanguardLH's approach first. Grab a partition
manager and be amazed at how easy it is to do what you're trying to do.
My choice is the Minitool Partition Wizard, which he linked, but the
others should work as well.
No need to do another Macrium restore, and (sorry Paul!) no need to do
multiple restores. A partition manager will have you sorted within a few
minutes.
You realize they're not multiple restores.

You restore partitions one at a time.

Two partitions are restored first (since both are part of the
boot OS, Macrium will use its boot repair logic when these
are done as a pair).

Then the fourth partition is restored separately.

Then the third partition is restored separately (can be
resized as well, or do the resize step in Disk Management).

This operation also does not require "backup and restore"
and can be done with the Macrium "cloning" option. Clone
the first two partitions. Clone the fourth. Clone the third.

Since the original partitions are not in partition table
order, after the restore they will be in physical order.
If you follow the order in the original post, partition
table entries 1 2 3 4 point to partitions 1 2 3 4 spread
in that order across the disk.

Paul
Char Jackson
2018-06-19 21:36:04 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Mayayana
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.
But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty desktop
- so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
used day-to-day.
Vanguard, Paul, John, and you have given me hope.
I had thrown in the towel and just re-imaged to an old 1TB backup drive - but
now I think I will re-visit the scene with the 2TB drive.
First thing I will try is looking for Macrium's Resize-Partition option.
If that doesn't happen, I'll move on to Paul's approach and, if that does not
work out, will start looking for a partition manager that will do the job.
I would recommend using VanguardLH's approach first. Grab a partition
manager and be amazed at how easy it is to do what you're trying to do.
My choice is the Minitool Partition Wizard, which he linked, but the
others should work as well.
No need to do another Macrium restore, and (sorry Paul!) no need to do
multiple restores. A partition manager will have you sorted within a few
minutes.
You realize they're not multiple restores.
You restore partitions one at a time.
Right, I understood what you were saying. I'm just saying that that's
completely over the top because a partition manager is much better
suited to do the task.

Your method is for those corner cases where something goes wrong, but
that won't be the case for 99.99% of people. It's good to have in your
back pocket, just in case, but it's extremely unlikely that anyone will
have to pull it out and use it. Just grab a decent partition manager,
click slide click, and enjoy the rest of your day. Easy peasy.
--
Char Jackson
Paul
2018-06-19 23:52:53 UTC
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Post by Char Jackson
Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Mayayana
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.
But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty desktop
- so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
used day-to-day.
Vanguard, Paul, John, and you have given me hope.
I had thrown in the towel and just re-imaged to an old 1TB backup drive - but
now I think I will re-visit the scene with the 2TB drive.
First thing I will try is looking for Macrium's Resize-Partition option.
If that doesn't happen, I'll move on to Paul's approach and, if that does not
work out, will start looking for a partition manager that will do the job.
I would recommend using VanguardLH's approach first. Grab a partition
manager and be amazed at how easy it is to do what you're trying to do.
My choice is the Minitool Partition Wizard, which he linked, but the
others should work as well.
No need to do another Macrium restore, and (sorry Paul!) no need to do
multiple restores. A partition manager will have you sorted within a few
minutes.
You realize they're not multiple restores.
You restore partitions one at a time.
Right, I understood what you were saying. I'm just saying that that's
completely over the top because a partition manager is much better
suited to do the task.
Your method is for those corner cases where something goes wrong, but
that won't be the case for 99.99% of people. It's good to have in your
back pocket, just in case, but it's extremely unlikely that anyone will
have to pull it out and use it. Just grab a decent partition manager,
click slide click, and enjoy the rest of your day. Easy peasy.
My method is SUPERIOR.

Data movement occurs ONCE.

It goes from ONE DISK TO THE OTHER.
NO "HEAD SLAP".

Now, knock it off.

Paul
Char Jackson
2018-06-20 01:21:44 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Paul
Post by Char Jackson
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Mayayana
I don't know why you think the HP partition is critical.
I always delete those. It's only useful if you don't have
backed up disk images of C.
That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.
But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty desktop
- so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
used day-to-day.
Vanguard, Paul, John, and you have given me hope.
I had thrown in the towel and just re-imaged to an old 1TB backup drive - but
now I think I will re-visit the scene with the 2TB drive.
First thing I will try is looking for Macrium's Resize-Partition option.
If that doesn't happen, I'll move on to Paul's approach and, if that does not
work out, will start looking for a partition manager that will do the job.
I would recommend using VanguardLH's approach first. Grab a partition
manager and be amazed at how easy it is to do what you're trying to do.
My choice is the Minitool Partition Wizard, which he linked, but the
others should work as well.
No need to do another Macrium restore, and (sorry Paul!) no need to do
multiple restores. A partition manager will have you sorted within a few
minutes.
You realize they're not multiple restores.
You restore partitions one at a time.
Right, I understood what you were saying. I'm just saying that that's
completely over the top because a partition manager is much better
suited to do the task.
Your method is for those corner cases where something goes wrong, but
that won't be the case for 99.99% of people. It's good to have in your
back pocket, just in case, but it's extremely unlikely that anyone will
have to pull it out and use it. Just grab a decent partition manager,
click slide click, and enjoy the rest of your day. Easy peasy.
My method is SUPERIOR.
Actually, IT'S NOT. When you introduce additional complexity to a task,
to any task, you add risk. This is someone's data at stake, so added
risk is something that should be avoided.

If you stand by your method, that's fine. I can respect that, but I
surely wouldn't propose it as a general recipe for the current
situation. It has way too many unnecessary steps.
Post by Paul
Now, knock it off.
I'm not sure what that refers to.
--
Char Jackson
Mayayana
2018-06-19 15:43:04 UTC
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"(PeteCresswell)" <***@y.Invalid> wrote

| That was my knee-jerk reaction: just delete it.
|
| But when I do that, the system boots up throwing a dialog that reads
| something like "Desktop.ini not found" and there's basically an empty
desktop
| - so I jumped to the assumption that the HP partition contained some files
| used day-to-day.
|
I've never seen that. But I've also never done it
without first fixing the boot. Put the boot files
on C so you can rid of the system partition. Then
alo make sure the boot config is OK. (BCDEdit from
terabyte unlimited can do that. It's part of BootIt.
Probably Macrium also has a tool.

So then you just have a normal, bootable C rive
and you can dump everything else.
Mayayana
2018-06-20 03:14:05 UTC
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"(PeteCresswell)" <***@y.Invalid> wrote

| The situation acts like there is a file (boot block?) somewhere that
points
| to Partition 0, Partition 1, Partition 2, and so-forth - and, when
partitions
| are moved around without changing that file, Bad Things happen.

Expanding a bit for clarity, yes, the boot needs to
be in accord with the partitions, whether you
eliminate the system partition and/or the restore
partition or not.

In Win7 the boot record, BCD, is a binary file that
needs an editor, but as an example, here's the XP
version, boot.ini:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP
Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=AlwaysOff /usepmtimer

That's my current boot.ini, in C:\
It points to the first disk (0) first partition (1).
If I want to put another partition in front I
need to change 1 to 2. Likewise, if you have a
restore partition then moving it's position may
prevent a restore happening unless you manually
set that partition active at boot.

So you need to know about that, but as long as
you know there's no problem moving things around.

It seems silly to me to go to this trouble and still
leave those 2 junk partitions in place, but as others
have said, you certainly can do it. A decent disk
utility can "slide" partitions to a different position and
can also resize them. Though I'm not sure of the
wisdom of picking among freebies to do that. So
you could, say, slide the HP partition all the way to
the back and enlarge DATA. You can also just
make a partition behind HP. But if you add a
partition in front of HP, or eliminate the system
partition, then you'll need to edit the boot.
Paul
2018-06-20 03:34:02 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
It seems silly to me to go to this trouble and still
leave those 2 junk partitions in place
That all depends on your sense of adventure.

I have disks here, crying out to be fixed. But
since there is no need of freeing up resources,
I leave the materials there. A couple 500MB partitions
aren't going to hurt anything.

On my laptop, I needed to free up some partitions,
as part of transitioning from OEM Windows 7, to
a Microsoft disc install of Windows 7. So I put the
extra effort into finding out how the stuff was
wired, and whether it was safe to dismantle what
I was seeing.

"How to Remove the Windows "System Reserved" Partition"

https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=409

Some of the newer GPT laptop machines, say a machine
with a 1TB disk and six partitions, you have
to wonder what space aliens dreamed those up.
As 1TB is too small to really need GPT, and
it usually isn't possible to determine exactly
what each of the partitions is for. Sure, you
might recognize System Reserved and HP Recovery
for what they are, but then you find a couple more
small ones that make you wonder "what else is there?".
How can you delete those, if they defy identification ?
You can use a test plan, like boot and see if Windows
boots OK, but there's a few other conditions you should
be checking for, before congratulating yourself. It's
much better to find a consensus somewhere as to
what they're for, instead of attempting to do your
own test plan. You might miss something.

For the simpler cases, where the partition label
gives the game away, sure, try your hand at cleanup.

I only learn how this stuff works, by breaking stuff.
The lesson leaves more of an impression that way.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-06-20 13:51:59 UTC
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"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote

| Mayayana wrote:
|
| >
| > It seems silly to me to go to this trouble and still
| > leave those 2 junk partitions in place
|
| That all depends on your sense of adventure.
|
And sense of orderliness.

I especially like to get rid of the system partition
because I don't want a pointless, dangling dependency
for disk images. And the restore partition is pointless
once a disk image backup is made.

I can see why many people don't want to bother.
When I decide to deal with a new (to me) computer
I want to be thorough and do the job thoroughly so
that I don't need to mess with it again. Which
means leaving a new install on C drive, with data
partitions, and disk images in case the OS and/or
disk goes south.

I don't like to leave tools on the kitchen table or
clothes on the floor. I don't like an 8" deep sea of
coffee cups on the back seat floor of my truck.
But that's just me. :)

| Some of the newer GPT laptop machines, say a machine
| with a 1TB disk and six partitions

I think I've seen 3 extra partitions. I think a
Dell laptop had some kind of silly utilities partition.
But I don't see any big risk in dumping that. In fact,
that particular laptop had a messed up restore
partition. There was something like a.exe that was
supposed to kick off b.exe but didn't work. It took
me all day to figure out that the restore would work
if I booted a CD and then ran b.exe. It was as
though someone had deliberately broken the restore
function.
To me that's a good example of why to just clean
the whole thing up and be sure that it's working
and backed up.

As long as C is made whole and bootable, then imaged,
I don't see any reason to leave the rest. The rest is
meant for people who are not handy and, at best,
may be able to handle triggering a factory restore
if they need to... but weren't handy enough to
make some restore DVDs when they got the computer.
Steve Hayes
2018-06-21 02:29:10 UTC
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:51:59 -0400, "Mayayana"
Post by Mayayana
I especially like to get rid of the system partition
because I don't want a pointless, dangling dependency
for disk images. And the restore partition is pointless
once a disk image backup is made.
Unless you want to sell the computer, then you can use the restore
partition.

---
Ignore the following - it's spammers for spambot fodder.

***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
VanguardLH
2018-06-21 05:56:10 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Mayayana
I especially like to get rid of the system partition
because I don't want a pointless, dangling dependency
for disk images. And the restore partition is pointless
once a disk image backup is made.
Unless you want to sell the computer, then you can use the restore
partition.
Create an image the moment you get it. The imaged OS partition is the
same as the one the recovery image/setup will create. Since you have
your own image (and NOT on the same HDD that can die taking both the OS
partition and recovery partition), you don't need to waste space or add
confusion with a recovery partition. If you want to resell the computer
with exactly the same setup, well, include ALL partitions in an image
backup of the initial/factory-time disk state.

Too often the recovery "image" is a customized setup program. You end
up reinstalling the OS instead of restoring an image. Setup takes a lot
longer than just a reimage.

Create your own image backup. Then you don't have to hope the recovery
partition still exists, that it still contains the recovery program, and
that the factory-time recovery succeeds.
Post by Steve Hayes
---
Not a valid signature delimiter line, and you know it!
Post by Steve Hayes
Ignore the following - it's spammers for spambot fodder.
<bunch of email address>

Ah, so you didn't reply to help or discuss. You just wanted to spam
here to Joe Job some e-mail addresses. Stalkers are as much trolls as
those who they stalk.
Ed Cryer
2018-06-21 11:06:53 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Mayayana
I especially like to get rid of the system partition
because I don't want a pointless, dangling dependency
for disk images. And the restore partition is pointless
once a disk image backup is made.
Unless you want to sell the computer, then you can use the restore
partition.
Create an image the moment you get it. The imaged OS partition is the
same as the one the recovery image/setup will create. Since you have
your own image (and NOT on the same HDD that can die taking both the OS
partition and recovery partition), you don't need to waste space or add
confusion with a recovery partition. If you want to resell the computer
with exactly the same setup, well, include ALL partitions in an image
backup of the initial/factory-time disk state.
Too often the recovery "image" is a customized setup program. You end
up reinstalling the OS instead of restoring an image. Setup takes a lot
longer than just a reimage.
Create your own image backup. Then you don't have to hope the recovery
partition still exists, that it still contains the recovery program, and
that the factory-time recovery succeeds.
Post by Steve Hayes
---
Not a valid signature delimiter line, and you know it!
Post by Steve Hayes
Ignore the following - it's spammers for spambot fodder.
<bunch of email address>
Ah, so you didn't reply to help or discuss. You just wanted to spam
here to Joe Job some e-mail addresses. Stalkers are as much trolls as
those who they stalk.
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.

Ed
Mayayana
2018-06-21 12:40:17 UTC
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"Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote

| When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
| creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
| Your solution would restore that account.
|

Does anyone actually create accounts? I never have.
I don't have any computers with user logon and never
have.
And how many people actually want to give away
their computer with an official HP logo on the desktop?
That's like giving away pans or clothes without washing
them first. The logo is merely an unsightly ad.

If someone really wants to do that because they view an
HP logo as an anti-cootie guarantee, then they can make
restore DVDs. There's still no need to leave the restore
partition.

If it were me and I were giving away the computer,
I'd do a basic cleanup of ads and shovelware before
giving it away. Then I'd make a disk image of that.
I do the same for friends whose computers are messed
up: Do a factory restore, clean that up, then set up
basic, default programs, like Firefox, Thunderbird and
IrfanView. I usually also try to set them up with some
kind of basic, free AV. In other words, I maximize
security, privacy and functionality as much as possible
for people who don't know how to do it for themselves.

Some people might say, "But what if they want Chrome?"
In my experience most people don't know about software
programs. They don't like Chrome or Edge. They get
tricked into Chrome or Edge. I try to install the most basic,
useful and non-sleazy software to get people started,
knowing that they're unlikely to ever change anything
once I give them back their computer. Chrome is out
because it's Google spyware. I manage browser settings
for the same reason. The typical person is getting Google
as default search in a browser with a sneaky "awesome
bar" that sends every URL to Google. People have actually
been de-educated so that they get to Sears.com by typing
Sears and going to Google, no longer understanding that
Sears has a dedicated URL. So Google gets a full report of
their online activity. No wonder they're willing to pay $1
per install to be the default search engine. (Google is
currently paying about $3B/tear to Apple alone, just to
be the default search on Safari.)

All of that is to say that a typical computer these days
is a minefield of sleaze that most people don't know how
to clean up. Most people don't even know it's happening.
People tend to be trusting about things they don't
understand. That's a big part of Microsoft getting away
with their claim that by using Windows you're operating
on their private property, subject to their terms. Most
people will just take that claim at face value.

The last time my very elderly father had a computer
he got angry because it came with MS Office but after
3 months they wanted him to pay for it. Those cheats!
It was supposed to come with the computer!
Of course it probably said in the fine print on the case
that it was a 3-month *trial*, but companies like MS
depend on customers misunderstanding. Otherwise there
wouldn't be big, bright stickers with tiny fine print on
computer cases.

I can still remember my own view before I got a
computer. I thought the people at Microsoft were
scientists in lab coats. The Intel ads helped to create
that image. As did Symantec. Who wouldn't trust Albert
Einstein or Jonas Salk to set up their computer? That's
what people are up against. Flim flam artists using
big words and pretending to be Jonas Salk. And with
an OEM box it's coming from both sides. The OEM
company is pretending they built the computer while
companies buy access to install their shovelware.
The whole thing is designed to milk the customer.

And that includes the factory restore partition. Most
people never realize it's there. Something goes wrong
and they throw away their computer. Microsoft and
the OEMs knew what they were doing in eliminating
restore disks. It wasn't to save 50 cents. It was part
of a well-planned, longterm scam to acclimate people
to the idea that the OS is part of the hardware.
Ed Cryer
2018-06-21 18:09:52 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
| creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
| Your solution would restore that account.
|
Does anyone actually create accounts? I never have.
I don't have any computers with user logon and never
have.
And how many people actually want to give away
their computer with an official HP logo on the desktop?
That's like giving away pans or clothes without washing
them first. The logo is merely an unsightly ad.
If someone really wants to do that because they view an
HP logo as an anti-cootie guarantee, then they can make
restore DVDs. There's still no need to leave the restore
partition.
If it were me and I were giving away the computer,
I'd do a basic cleanup of ads and shovelware before
giving it away. Then I'd make a disk image of that.
I do the same for friends whose computers are messed
up: Do a factory restore, clean that up, then set up
basic, default programs, like Firefox, Thunderbird and
IrfanView. I usually also try to set them up with some
kind of basic, free AV. In other words, I maximize
security, privacy and functionality as much as possible
for people who don't know how to do it for themselves.
Some people might say, "But what if they want Chrome?"
In my experience most people don't know about software
programs. They don't like Chrome or Edge. They get
tricked into Chrome or Edge. I try to install the most basic,
useful and non-sleazy software to get people started,
knowing that they're unlikely to ever change anything
once I give them back their computer. Chrome is out
because it's Google spyware. I manage browser settings
for the same reason. The typical person is getting Google
as default search in a browser with a sneaky "awesome
bar" that sends every URL to Google. People have actually
been de-educated so that they get to Sears.com by typing
Sears and going to Google, no longer understanding that
Sears has a dedicated URL. So Google gets a full report of
their online activity. No wonder they're willing to pay $1
per install to be the default search engine. (Google is
currently paying about $3B/tear to Apple alone, just to
be the default search on Safari.)
All of that is to say that a typical computer these days
is a minefield of sleaze that most people don't know how
to clean up. Most people don't even know it's happening.
People tend to be trusting about things they don't
understand. That's a big part of Microsoft getting away
with their claim that by using Windows you're operating
on their private property, subject to their terms. Most
people will just take that claim at face value.
The last time my very elderly father had a computer
he got angry because it came with MS Office but after
3 months they wanted him to pay for it. Those cheats!
It was supposed to come with the computer!
Of course it probably said in the fine print on the case
that it was a 3-month *trial*, but companies like MS
depend on customers misunderstanding. Otherwise there
wouldn't be big, bright stickers with tiny fine print on
computer cases.
I can still remember my own view before I got a
computer. I thought the people at Microsoft were
scientists in lab coats. The Intel ads helped to create
that image. As did Symantec. Who wouldn't trust Albert
Einstein or Jonas Salk to set up their computer? That's
what people are up against. Flim flam artists using
big words and pretending to be Jonas Salk. And with
an OEM box it's coming from both sides. The OEM
company is pretending they built the computer while
companies buy access to install their shovelware.
The whole thing is designed to milk the customer.
And that includes the factory restore partition. Most
people never realize it's there. Something goes wrong
and they throw away their computer. Microsoft and
the OEMs knew what they were doing in eliminating
restore disks. It wasn't to save 50 cents. It was part
of a well-planned, longterm scam to acclimate people
to the idea that the OS is part of the hardware.
None of which will get a "factory restore"; something that is handled by
software that comes with the OEM machine; HP Recovery Management, Acer
Recovery M.... etc. And how does that work? It resets the whole HD from
the Recovery Partition.

Now, wait a minute. You're like me. You have an understanding of these
devilish things that most don't. You can think way outside the box, take
advantage of your broader insight, and personalise everything to your
heart's content.

One thing I didn't read in your tirade was this situation, one that
applies to this very PC I'm typing on now. The hardware has been
radically updated since it came from the factory, and a factory reset
would battle with that; DVD changed to Bluray, large SSD replaced HD,
more RAM; drivers and updated progs.

A factory-reset is something I'd never do. But how am I going to pass my
higher insight on to the millions who have PCs? How can I instill in
them all the competence I've acquired professionally? While I was
programming computers for a living, others were teaching kids, running
shops, selling insurance. And those millions need a simple road-map.
Those millions are the ones MS have in mind when they plan things like
forced OS updates and forced AV updates.
And a "factory reset" comes under the heading of these things. It's
designed and intended to help "the average user".

Ed
Mayayana
2018-06-21 19:57:50 UTC
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"Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote

| None of which will get a "factory restore"; something that is handled by
| software that comes with the OEM machine;

I already explained that. You have two options
(assuming for some strange reason you actually
want a "pure" factory restore):

1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.

2) Create restore DVDs. Don't all newer computers
have the option to create a DVD to do factory
restore? That was my understanding. Otherwise
your ability to keep using the machine depends on
the survival of your hard disk, which is a crazy
risk to take.

A third option is to download an ISO from MS and
use your OEM key with it. I did that recently with
a Win8 laptop that had a failed hard disk. I had to
jump through some hoops to get the ISO, but I got
it, it's legal, and it validated just fine.
bounder
2018-06-21 21:03:24 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| None of which will get a "factory restore"; something that is handled by
| software that comes with the OEM machine;
I already explained that. You have two options
(assuming for some strange reason you actually
1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.
Sounds like you might not be familiar with the fact that Macrium is the
clear favorite around the Windows groups for making disk (volume)
images. When you talk about making an image, most people will reach for
their installed copy of Macrium Reflect Free.
Post by Mayayana
2) Create restore DVDs. Don't all newer computers
have the option to create a DVD to do factory
restore? That was my understanding. Otherwise
your ability to keep using the machine depends on
the survival of your hard disk, which is a crazy
risk to take.
Ahem, see your 3rd option. ;-)
Post by Mayayana
A third option is to download an ISO from MS and
use your OEM key with it. I did that recently with
a Win8 laptop that had a failed hard disk. I had to
jump through some hoops to get the ISO, but I got
it, it's legal, and it validated just fine.
Everyone should have an image on hand, just in case, just like everyone
should have an ISO on hand, just in case. Not everyone does, of course.
Mayayana
2018-06-21 21:42:49 UTC
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"bounder" <***@lunes-mail.net.comm> wrote

| >
| > 1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
| > not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
| > I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.
|
| Sounds like you might not be familiar with the fact that Macrium is the
| clear favorite around the Windows groups for making disk (volume)
| images. When you talk about making an image, most people will reach for
| their installed copy of Macrium Reflect Free.
|

See the new posts from John and Ed. Ed seems
to think Macrium is for backup rather than imaging.
Not everyone knows the difference or agrees on
what it is. I've never used Macrium, so I don't
know what it can or can't do. I'm just trying to
clarify that any system can be imaged. (And as
you said, should be.)

That seems to be another issue that confuses
things. Originally there was the idea of disk images.
Then people started making images with incremental
updating, which is not really a case of using disk
images. It's just a complicated method of backup.
I get the impression that these days most people
who think they're making disk images are actually
just using a backup program -- like a homemade
version of System Restore.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-21 22:09:59 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| >
| > 1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
| > not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
| > I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.
|
| Sounds like you might not be familiar with the fact that Macrium is the
| clear favorite around the Windows groups for making disk (volume)
| images. When you talk about making an image, most people will reach for
| their installed copy of Macrium Reflect Free.
|
See the new posts from John and Ed. Ed seems
to think Macrium is for backup rather than imaging.
Not everyone knows the difference or agrees on
what it is. I've never used Macrium, so I don't
know what it can or can't do. I'm just trying to
clarify that any system can be imaged. (And as
you said, should be.)
Macrium Reflect Free is basically an imaging tool (that can also,
obviously, restore from those images, if you use the CD you can make
from it). You pick which partitions - including hidden ones - and it
makes a single file (of extension .mrimg - Macrium Reflect Image) from
them; by default, only the parts that actually have data on, so the
image file is smaller than the partitions being imaged. (It also can -
does by default - do some compression too.) When such an image is
restored to a new disc, the partitions, boot sector, etc., are restored
as they were, i. e. the restored disc is bootable.

(At least, that's my experience imaging all but my data partition; I
don't know what it does if you "image" only a data partition. I don't
use it for that, I use synctoy.)
Post by Mayayana
That seems to be another issue that confuses
things. Originally there was the idea of disk images.
Then people started making images with incremental
updating, which is not really a case of using disk
images. It's just a complicated method of backup.
Well, the initial one may be an image as you and I understand the term.
Post by Mayayana
I get the impression that these days most people
who think they're making disk images are actually
just using a backup program -- like a homemade
version of System Restore.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... she has never contracted A-listeria or developed airs and graces. Kathy
Lette on Kylie, RT 2014/1/11-17
Char Jackson
2018-06-21 22:51:06 UTC
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:09:59 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Macrium Reflect Free is basically an imaging tool (that can also,
obviously, restore from those images, if you use the CD you can make
from it). You pick which partitions - including hidden ones - and it
makes a single file (of extension .mrimg - Macrium Reflect Image) from
them; by default, only the parts that actually have data on, so the
image file is smaller than the partitions being imaged. (It also can -
does by default - do some compression too.) When such an image is
restored to a new disc, the partitions, boot sector, etc., are restored
as they were, i. e. the restored disc is bootable.
For completeness of the discussion, it's also a disk cloning tool. For
every disk/volume/partition (they play a bit loose with the
terminology), they provide the option to "Image this disk..." or to
"Clone this disk...". For a disk with multiple volumes, you can select
all volumes or a lesser number.
--
Char Jackson
Paul
2018-06-21 23:13:32 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| >
| > 1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
| > not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
| > I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.
|
| Sounds like you might not be familiar with the fact that Macrium is the
| clear favorite around the Windows groups for making disk (volume)
| images. When you talk about making an image, most people will reach for
| their installed copy of Macrium Reflect Free.
|
See the new posts from John and Ed. Ed seems
to think Macrium is for backup rather than imaging.
Not everyone knows the difference or agrees on
what it is. I've never used Macrium, so I don't
know what it can or can't do. I'm just trying to
clarify that any system can be imaged. (And as
you said, should be.)
That seems to be another issue that confuses
things. Originally there was the idea of disk images.
Then people started making images with incremental
updating, which is not really a case of using disk
images. It's just a complicated method of backup.
I get the impression that these days most people
who think they're making disk images are actually
just using a backup program -- like a homemade
version of System Restore.
Imaging means different things to different people.

Let's say I'm a detective at the 5th precinct, and
a 500GB drive comes in with "evidence" on it. I grab
a copy of dd (disk dump) and I record every sector.
To copy the 500GB of sectors off the drive, might take
two hours. For my trouble, I record present visible files,
as well as recently erased files. The recently erased
files might be recovered with additional work. This is
why forensic grade copies are made, to elicit evidence
found in the "white space" of the drive.

dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sdb # Disk cloning, forensic quality
dd if=/dev/sda of=C:\drug_deal_gone_bad.bin # Record image to a file, forensic

The file "C:\drug_deal_gone_bad.bin" would be 500GB
in size.

*******

Macrium on the other hand, includes cloning. It can be
done two ways (or claims to have the capability).

clone Disk0 to Disk1, using smart copy # Only occupied clusters copied

clone Disk0 to Disk1, dumb copy # Copy every sector
# Didn't work as advertised, copy
# time was too short. Should take
# two hours.
If I have 20GB of drug files on the 500GB
drive, then Macrium typically copies 20GB
of stuff. Any deleted files, their clusters
are not recorded at the destination.

Macrium offers cloning, a disk to disk operation.
You can clone a single partitions or a
disk full of partitions.

For backup purposes, Macrium records backups in
a file. We could call this imaging. Except, in the
paid version, multiple image files can be used,
with some of the files being differentials
or incrementals.

A Macrium backup of a 20GB partition on a 500GB
drive, would end up as a 20GB .mrimg file. That
means whatever is on the other 480GB of "white space"
is not a concern. Any deleted files are not recorded.

The terms they might use, are "backup" or "clone",
and you'll have to apply your own translation
as to what you think the operations should be called.

backup: copy occupied clusters to .mrimg file

clone: copy the occupied clusters on a source
partition, to an identical destination
partition. By not transferring all clusters,
only the "visible" part of the disk is copied.

Macrium seems to want to copy 20GB in either case. If
I could have got the "dumb copy" working years ago, I might
be more optimistic of getting a 500GB file from Macrium
(the kind a detective would like).

Macrium can also do all operations from its
Emergency Boot CD. Generally, to avoid problems,
the CD should be made on the machine in question, in order
that any drivers needed for the job, will be there.
Using the disc from my P5E on my X79, doesn't perhaps
guarantee that I can use a file share as a destination
for the operation - the network driver might be missing.
This was more of a problem on older versions of Macrium,
and maybe it's getting solved by using WinPE5 or WinPE10
as bases for building the CD. I can't say I've had
operational failures lately, so maybe this situation
has improved somewhat.

Other functions Macrium has:

1) Boot repair function on the CD, good for cases where
a cloned disk won't boot. Use Macrium boot repair first,
and if that isn't enough, follow it with Windows boot repair.

2) Macrium can convert a .mrimg to a .vhd, for usage in
a virtual machine environment. The .vhd cannot have more
than 2.2TB of files inside. Since .vhd files can be
mounted by "attaching" them in Windows, you can also use
.vhd as a "container that works most places". On WinXP,
the Microsoft vhdmount utility, plus an NTFS C: for WinXP,
would allow that .vhd to be mounted.

Some environments have a 137GB limit on a .vhd, others
allow the whole 2.2TB. For quantities of files larger
than 2.2TB, you'd need a .vhdx recipe (no recipe available).

Sysinternals disk2vhd can create .vhd or .vhdx files, if
you actually needed to make a 3TB one. But Macrium at the
moment, only supports the "smaller" (.vhd) flavor.

HTH,
Paul
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-22 13:32:50 UTC
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Paul <***@needed.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Post by Paul
For backup purposes, Macrium records backups in
a file. We could call this imaging. Except, in the
paid version, multiple image files can be used,
with some of the files being differentials
or incrementals.
Minor nit: Starting with version 6 - some 2 years ago -, Macrium
Reflect FREE can also make Differential (image) backups (but no
Incremental ones).

FWIW, I make Differential image backups until the size of the
Differential image backup is about 50% of the original Full image
backup. Then I make another Full image backup.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-22 13:32:50 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| > 1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
| > not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
| > I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.
|
| Sounds like you might not be familiar with the fact that Macrium is the
| clear favorite around the Windows groups for making disk (volume)
| images. When you talk about making an image, most people will reach for
| their installed copy of Macrium Reflect Free.
See the new posts from John and Ed. Ed seems
to think Macrium is for backup rather than imaging.
Not everyone knows the difference or agrees on
what it is. I've never used Macrium, so I don't
know what it can or can't do. I'm just trying to
clarify that any system can be imaged. (And as
you said, should be.)
Imaging *is* backup. If it's not for backup, then why are you making
an image in the first place? (let's not quibble about 'backup' versus
'archiving').

Imaging is a *type* of backup. I.e. 'image backup' versus 'file
backup', for example Macrium Reflect (FREE) versus for example (Windows
Vista/7) Backup and Restore.
Post by Mayayana
That seems to be another issue that confuses
things. Originally there was the idea of disk images.
Then people started making images with incremental
updating, which is not really a case of using disk
images. It's just a complicated method of backup.
No, differential/incremental image backup is still 'imaging'.

You seem to contrast 'imaging' versus 'backup'. (IMO) That's
incorrect, because imaging is (a type of) backup.
Post by Mayayana
I get the impression that these days most people
who think they're making disk images are actually
just using a backup program -- like a homemade
version of System Restore.
Macrium Reflect (FREE) is clearly an imaging program, because it makes
images (.mrimg files) of the (in-use or total) *sectors* (not files) in
a partition (or partitions).

So yes, they're 'just using a backup program', specifically an *image*
backup program.

So let's turn this issue around and ask: What do *you* consider to be
'[disk] imaging'/'a [disk] image'? And why do you consider '[disk]
imaging'/'a [disk] image' not to be 'backup' or/and vice versa?
Mayayana
2018-06-22 14:41:22 UTC
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"Frank Slootweg" <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| So let's turn this issue around and ask: What do *you* consider to be
| '[disk] imaging'/'a [disk] image'? And why do you consider '[disk]
| imaging'/'a [disk] image' not to be 'backup' or/and vice versa?

I thought I explained that. There's always been backup
of various kinds. Disk imaging is, of course, one form. I think
of disk image backup as making a copy of a partition that
can be reinstalled to the same or a different hard disk, as
opposed to data backup, and distinct from System Restore.

I think of disk image backup as a specific practice
of maintaining such images, especially OS partitions,
so that Windows doesn't have to be reinstalled from
scratch if a hard disk dies or an OS is badly damaged.
Images also make it easy for Pro versions to be moved
to a new computer. And such images are also used
in corporate IT, to put a pre-configured system on
new computers.
(Norton Ghost started that way, I think.)

Over time, the idea of disk image backup became
more popular and software began to arrive that was
a kind of hybrid, designed for ease of use and usable
by people who might not understand the idea of
disk partitions, or the idea of OS vs data. But they'd
heard about the importance of backup. People would
run their backup "disk image" software in Windows,
maintaining on-disk image backups that would frequently
update. Perhaps the first transitional product was when
Drive Image was changed from a bootable, disk imaging
utility to a .Net-based backup program.
Then there were a lot of people using Acronis. Those
people seemed to be using it specifically because they
could have real-time image backup, on-disk, without
needing to understand how it all worked.

To my mind that's closer to a RAID array than disk
image backup. It's in the same category as System
Restore, with the restore "point" being constantly
updated. That ends up being a very different approach
from what I'm calling disk image backup. It's a copy
of OS+data that's stored on-disk. It is, of course,
an image. But the way it's used differs fundamentally
from what I described.

I was trying to clarify the difference because several
people, such as Ed Cryer, seemed to think I was talking
about an on-disk, incremental, System Restore-esque
backup technique when I suggested making a disk image
of a freshly restored OEM system so that the restore
partition could be deleted. I'm not sure how many people
actually understand what myself and John were detailing:
a bootable program that makes a restorable image of a
partition that can be stored remotely and restored to
any hard disk. With *that* kind of disk image backup,
if such an image is made of a newly restored OEM
system, there's no need to save OEM restore partitions.
The disk image copied to external storage is a more
secure substitute.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-22 15:29:26 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| So let's turn this issue around and ask: What do *you* consider to be
| '[disk] imaging'/'a [disk] image'? And why do you consider '[disk]
| imaging'/'a [disk] image' not to be 'backup' or/and vice versa?
I thought I explained that. There's always been backup
of various kinds. Disk imaging is, of course, one form. I think
of disk image backup as making a copy of a partition that
can be reinstalled to the same or a different hard disk, as
opposed to data backup, and distinct from System Restore.
If you change 'data backup' to 'file backup' (i.e. also backing up
files which do not contain 'data', i.e. programs, etc., etc.), I think
everyone in this thread is in full agreement.

BTW, please let's leave System Restore out of this discussion, because
it's something completely different (and it's broken by design, so it's
not backup in any shape or form).
Post by Mayayana
I think of disk image backup as a specific practice
of maintaining such images, especially OS partitions,
so that Windows doesn't have to be reinstalled from
scratch if a hard disk dies or an OS is badly damaged.
Images also make it easy for Pro versions to be moved
to a new computer. And such images are also used
in corporate IT, to put a pre-configured system on
new computers.
(Norton Ghost started that way, I think.)
Not only Windows doesn't have to be re-installed, but neither does all
other software, all updates, all (re-)configuration, etc.. IOW, the
*system* does not have to be re-installed.

Re-installing Windows is relatively simple. It's the rest, which is
very time consuming and a major nightmare.
Post by Mayayana
Over time, the idea of disk image backup became
more popular and software began to arrive that was
a kind of hybrid, designed for ease of use and usable
by people who might not understand the idea of
disk partitions, or the idea of OS vs data. But they'd
heard about the importance of backup. People would
run their backup "disk image" software in Windows,
maintaining on-disk image backups that would frequently
update. Perhaps the first transitional product was when
Drive Image was changed from a bootable, disk imaging
utility to a .Net-based backup program.
Then there were a lot of people using Acronis. Those
people seemed to be using it specifically because they
could have real-time image backup, on-disk, without
needing to understand how it all worked.
Indeed many people in these newsgroups use image backup that way,
because - for them - such backup is fast enough, (external) disk storage
is cheap enough and such software can often also restore files/folders
from the image backup.

*I* do not use image backup that way (I use image backup *and*
(seperate) file backup), but such use is perfectly OK.

FWIW, I think these people are very well aware of the concepts ('disk
partitions' and 'OS vs data') involved.
Post by Mayayana
To my mind that's closer to a RAID array than disk
image backup. It's in the same category as System
Restore, with the restore "point" being constantly
updated. That ends up being a very different approach
from what I'm calling disk image backup. It's a copy
of OS+data that's stored on-disk. It is, of course,
an image. But the way it's used differs fundamentally
from what I described.
I was trying to clarify the difference because several
people, such as Ed Cryer, seemed to think I was talking
about an on-disk, incremental, System Restore-esque
backup technique when I suggested making a disk image
of a freshly restored OEM system so that the restore
partition could be deleted. I'm not sure how many people
a bootable program that makes a restorable image of a
partition that can be stored remotely and restored to
any hard disk. With *that* kind of disk image backup,
if such an image is made of a newly restored OEM
system, there's no need to save OEM restore partitions.
The disk image copied to external storage is a more
secure substitute.
FWIW, AFAICT everybody understood perfectly what you meant.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-22 15:55:30 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| So let's turn this issue around and ask: What do *you* consider to be
| '[disk] imaging'/'a [disk] image'? And why do you consider '[disk]
| imaging'/'a [disk] image' not to be 'backup' or/and vice versa?
I thought I explained that. There's always been backup
of various kinds. Disk imaging is, of course, one form. I think
of disk image backup as making a copy of a partition that
can be reinstalled to the same or a different hard disk, as
opposed to data backup, and distinct from System Restore.
As I recall it, "images" are bitwise copies, so that everything
(including the "blank" part is copied. Very useful for Discovery in
legal cases. Because it is a bitwise copy, it takes a long time to
accomplish, and you need to copy it to a larger drive.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Ed Cryer
2018-06-22 17:50:48 UTC
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Post by pyotr filipivich
As I recall it, "images" are bitwise copies, so that everything
(including the "blank" part is copied. Very useful for Discovery in
legal cases. Because it is a bitwise copy, it takes a long time to
accomplish, and you need to copy it to a larger drive.
Very wrong! So wrong that if I were you I'd run now before the wolves
catch you.

Ed
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-22 23:42:58 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Post by pyotr filipivich
As I recall it, "images" are bitwise copies, so that everything
(including the "blank" part is copied. Very useful for Discovery in
legal cases. Because it is a bitwise copy, it takes a long time to
accomplish, and you need to copy it to a larger drive.
Very wrong! So wrong that if I were you I'd run now before the wolves
catch you.
It's been over twenty years since I was using some one else's
proprietary software.

I no longer care.
Post by Ed Cryer
Ed
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-21 21:51:31 UTC
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Post by bounder
Post by Mayayana
| None of which will get a "factory restore"; something that is
|handled by
| software that comes with the OEM machine;
I already explained that. You have two options
(assuming for some strange reason you actually
1) Do a restore and then make a disk image. I'm
not talking about a backup by Macrium or some such.
I'm talking about an actual image of C drive.
Sounds like you might not be familiar with the fact that Macrium is the
clear favorite around the Windows groups for making disk (volume)
images. When you talk about making an image, most people will reach for
their installed copy of Macrium Reflect Free.
[]
Yes, that does seem to be most people's option. I reach for my Macrium
boot CD.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... she has never contracted A-listeria or developed airs and graces. Kathy
Lette on Kylie, RT 2014/1/11-17
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-21 20:36:04 UTC
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In message <pgg0t4$rqo$***@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer
<***@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Ed
What if you don't install Macrium, but use a Macrium boot CD that you
made earlier on another machine: if you image a brand new OEM PC
(imaging all "partitions" that are there), and later restore from that
image, will the OEM PC appear as at initial setup (e. g. ask you to
choose partition sizes or whatever initial setup does)?

(The only time I've ever used the _installed_ version of Macrium was to
make the CD in the first place [I think, other than just copying a CD
you'd made already, you _have_ to run the software to make the CD]; when
making images, I always boot from the CD. I haven't even installed
Macrium on this PC.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

While no one was paying attention, weather reports became accurate and the
news became fiction. Did not see that coming. - Scott Adams, 2015
Ed Cryer
2018-06-21 21:26:29 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Ed
What if you don't install Macrium, but use a Macrium boot CD that you
made earlier on another machine: if you image a brand new OEM PC
(imaging all "partitions" that are there), and later restore from that
image, will the OEM PC appear as at initial setup (e. g. ask you to
choose partition sizes or whatever initial setup does)?
(The only time I've ever used the _installed_ version of Macrium was to
make the CD in the first place [I think, other than just copying a CD
you'd made already, you _have_ to run the software to make the CD]; when
making images, I always boot from the CD. I haven't even installed
Macrium on this PC.)
I really don't know if that would work.

Switch on your new OEM PC and it goes straight into its Windows setup;
takes all your details and preferences, trundles away, gives you control
within the account it's created.

Your suggestion means that you'd have to switch on your new OEM PC,
change boot sequence, reboot with Macrium disc in.
I suppose that if that worked, then yes, you could image the pristine
disc. But I don't know if the way the OEM has set it up would allow it.

Anyway, I have another suggestion.
Do full setup; do whatever else you want to do. Load all your stuff.
And then, whenever you want, take an image of just the Recovery partition.

Ed
Paul
2018-06-21 21:45:20 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Ed
What if you don't install Macrium, but use a Macrium boot CD that you
made earlier on another machine: if you image a brand new OEM PC
(imaging all "partitions" that are there), and later restore from that
image, will the OEM PC appear as at initial setup (e. g. ask you to
choose partition sizes or whatever initial setup does)?
(The only time I've ever used the _installed_ version of Macrium was
to make the CD in the first place [I think, other than just copying a
CD you'd made already, you _have_ to run the software to make the CD];
when making images, I always boot from the CD. I haven't even
installed Macrium on this PC.)
I really don't know if that would work.
Switch on your new OEM PC and it goes straight into its Windows setup;
takes all your details and preferences, trundles away, gives you control
within the account it's created.
Your suggestion means that you'd have to switch on your new OEM PC,
change boot sequence, reboot with Macrium disc in.
I suppose that if that worked, then yes, you could image the pristine
disc. But I don't know if the way the OEM has set it up would allow it.
Anyway, I have another suggestion.
Do full setup; do whatever else you want to do. Load all your stuff.
And then, whenever you want, take an image of just the Recovery partition.
Ed
Keywords:

sysprep
generalize
sealing
oobe (Out Of the Box Experience)

It's possible to put an OS back into a factory state,
if you're an IT guy, loaded WADK onto your technician
machine and worked on the C: image.

I think you can load WADK onto the C: of the technician
machine, then bring over a laptop drive and put it
back in the OOBE state.

I've never done any of this stuff, so can't help
with details.

If I have my factory restore partition, my DVD set
I made when the machine was new, my Macrium backup
early in the life of the product, I probably no longer
care about the issue. As I have "belt and suspenders",
and couldn't give a damn about a 12GB partition still
being there. My assumption is, I will drop dead, and
if someone picks up the laptop, and sees the factory
restore, they can prepare the machine for easy disposal.

Now, if it was a tablet with eMMC, that would be an
entirely different handling case. One of the reasons
I don't own a tablet, is I "don't want to learn how
to maintain a tablet". Desktops are just too easy.

Paul
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-21 22:13:09 UTC
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In message <pgh69f$ld5$***@dont-email.me>, Paul <***@needed.invalid>
writes:
[]
Post by Paul
If I have my factory restore partition, my DVD set
I made when the machine was new, my Macrium backup
early in the life of the product, I probably no longer
care about the issue. As I have "belt and suspenders",
and couldn't give a damn about a 12GB partition still
being there. My assumption is, I will drop dead, and
if someone picks up the laptop, and sees the factory
restore, they can prepare the machine for easy disposal.
Now, if it was a tablet with eMMC, that would be an
entirely different handling case. One of the reasons
I don't own a tablet, is I "don't want to learn how
to maintain a tablet". Desktops are just too easy.
Well, and laptops.

Like you, I haven't learnt how to play with tablets yet. (Unless you
count a smartphone, and I _really_ haven't learnt how to do much with
that either.)
Post by Paul
Paul
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... she has never contracted A-listeria or developed airs and graces. Kathy
Lette on Kylie, RT 2014/1/11-17
Ed Cryer
2018-06-22 14:10:32 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Ed
What if you don't install Macrium, but use a Macrium boot CD that you
made earlier on another machine: if you image a brand new OEM PC
(imaging all "partitions" that are there), and later restore from
that image, will the OEM PC appear as at initial setup (e. g. ask you
to choose partition sizes or whatever initial setup does)?
(The only time I've ever used the _installed_ version of Macrium was
to make the CD in the first place [I think, other than just copying a
CD you'd made already, you _have_ to run the software to make the
CD]; when making images, I always boot from the CD. I haven't even
installed Macrium on this PC.)
I really don't know if that would work.
Switch on your new OEM PC and it goes straight into its Windows setup;
takes all your details and preferences, trundles away, gives you
control within the account it's created.
Your suggestion means that you'd have to switch on your new OEM PC,
change boot sequence, reboot with Macrium disc in.
I suppose that if that worked, then yes, you could image the pristine
disc. But I don't know if the way the OEM has set it up would allow it.
Anyway, I have another suggestion.
Do full setup; do whatever else you want to do. Load all your stuff.
And then, whenever you want, take an image of just the Recovery partition.
Ed
sysprep
generalize
sealing
oobe    (Out Of the Box Experience)
It's possible to put an OS back into a factory state,
if you're an IT guy, loaded WADK onto your technician
machine and worked on the C: image.
I think you can load WADK onto the C: of the technician
machine, then bring over a laptop drive and put it
back in the OOBE state.
I've never done any of this stuff, so can't help
with details.
If I have my factory restore partition, my DVD set
I made when the machine was new, my Macrium backup
early in the life of the product, I probably no longer
care about the issue. As I have "belt and suspenders",
and couldn't give a damn about a 12GB partition still
being there. My assumption is, I will drop dead, and
if someone picks up the laptop, and sees the factory
restore, they can prepare the machine for easy disposal.
Now, if it was a tablet with eMMC, that would be an
entirely different handling case. One of the reasons
I don't own a tablet, is I "don't want to learn how
to maintain a tablet". Desktops are just too easy.
   Paul
Here's a version for non-IT-guys.
1. Do the full guided setup.
2. Image the whole lot with Macrium.
3. Do a factory-restore with the OEM-provided software.
4. Image that with Macrium, and keep safe.
5. Restore image 2 above.
6. Duplicate image 2 for safety.

Ed
Ant
2018-06-23 00:38:22 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Here's a version for non-IT-guys.
1. Do the full guided setup.
2. Image the whole lot with Macrium.
3. Do a factory-restore with the OEM-provided software.
4. Image that with Macrium, and keep safe.
5. Restore image 2 above.
6. Duplicate image 2 for safety.
Too bad OEM companies don't include the physical discs anymore. Do they
still provider options to make discs from the internal drives at least?
--
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Paul
2018-06-23 01:24:47 UTC
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Post by Ant
Post by Ed Cryer
Here's a version for non-IT-guys.
1. Do the full guided setup.
2. Image the whole lot with Macrium.
3. Do a factory-restore with the OEM-provided software.
4. Image that with Macrium, and keep safe.
5. Restore image 2 above.
6. Duplicate image 2 for safety.
Too bad OEM companies don't include the physical discs anymore. Do they
still provider options to make discs from the internal drives at least?
Mine did:

The system prompts to create discs, soon after
setup and usage.

Acer 3-DVD set for C: partition restoration

Acer single CD for hardware drivers
(in case reinstalling later from MS media)

Microsoft System Restore CD for putting back
Windows 7 style backups.

A total of five discs.

*******

On a tablet without an optical drive, the machine
is more likely to need a USB key to hold resources
like that. Just one of those hidden costs.

Paul
Ed Cryer
2018-06-23 12:14:50 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Ant
Post by Ed Cryer
Here's a version for non-IT-guys.
1. Do the full guided setup.
2. Image the whole lot with Macrium.
3. Do a factory-restore with the OEM-provided software.
4. Image that with Macrium, and keep safe.
5. Restore image 2 above.
6. Duplicate image 2 for safety.
Too bad OEM companies don't include the physical discs anymore. Do
they still provider options to make discs from the internal drives at
least?
The system prompts to create discs, soon after
setup and usage.
   Acer 3-DVD set for C: partition restoration
   Acer single CD for hardware drivers
     (in case reinstalling later from MS media)
   Microsoft System Restore CD for putting back
      Windows 7 style backups.
A total of five discs.
*******
On a tablet without an optical drive, the machine
is more likely to need a USB key to hold resources
like that. Just one of those hidden costs.
   Paul
So do my Acers. They have an Acer eRecovery Management program that
includes "Create Factory Default Disc" (N.B the singular noun) amongst
other functions such as restore to ex-factory state.
I never did this because I include the restore partition in my regular
Macrium backups.

My tablet has a mini USB port and handles optical drives excellently. So
that I have actually installed Macrium on it, taken backup images and
put M on the boot menu.

Ed
Ant
2018-06-23 23:52:22 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Ant
Post by Ed Cryer
Here's a version for non-IT-guys.
1. Do the full guided setup.
2. Image the whole lot with Macrium.
3. Do a factory-restore with the OEM-provided software.
4. Image that with Macrium, and keep safe.
5. Restore image 2 above.
6. Duplicate image 2 for safety.
Too bad OEM companies don't include the physical discs anymore. Do they
still provider options to make discs from the internal drives at least?
The system prompts to create discs, soon after
setup and usage.
Acer 3-DVD set for C: partition restoration
Acer single CD for hardware drivers
(in case reinstalling later from MS media)
Microsoft System Restore CD for putting back
Windows 7 style backups.
A total of five discs.
Oh right. I remember my Acer test desktop PC at work a few years ago
doing that to me. I think HP also had that option too. This was in the
early 2010s though.
--
Quote of the Week: "At high tide the fish eat ants; at low tide the ants eat fish." --Thai Proverb
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-21 21:58:48 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Ed
What if you don't install Macrium, but use a Macrium boot CD that you
made earlier on another machine: if you image a brand new OEM PC
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
Your suggestion means that you'd have to switch on your new OEM PC,
change boot sequence, reboot with Macrium disc in.
Ah, you may be right: I was assuming that new machines defaulted to
boot-from-CD-if-there's-one-there; I may be well wrong about that. (And
yes, you would have to turn it on briefly to use the eject button so you
could actually put the CD in, unless you used the paperclip hole.)
Post by Ed Cryer
I suppose that if that worked, then yes, you could image the pristine
disc. But I don't know if the way the OEM has set it up would allow it.
Me neither.
Post by Ed Cryer
Anyway, I have another suggestion.
Do full setup; do whatever else you want to do. Load all your stuff.
And then, whenever you want, take an image of just the Recovery partition.
That's the more normal situation. I was thinking about people who might
want to sell/give away PCs in "as new" condition; I can't see me ever
doing that (in much the same way as I run my cars into the ground,
rather than selling them).
Post by Ed Cryer
Ed
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... she has never contracted A-listeria or developed airs and graces. Kathy
Lette on Kylie, RT 2014/1/11-17
Ed Cryer
2018-06-22 15:26:02 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Ed
What if you don't install Macrium, but use a Macrium boot CD that you
made earlier on another machine: if you image a brand new OEM PC
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
Your suggestion means that you'd have to switch on your new OEM PC,
change boot sequence, reboot with Macrium disc in.
Ah, you may be right: I was assuming that new machines defaulted to
boot-from-CD-if-there's-one-there; I may be well wrong about that. (And
yes, you would have to turn it on briefly to use the eject button so you
could actually put the CD in, unless you used the paperclip hole.)
Post by Ed Cryer
I suppose that if that worked, then yes, you could image the pristine
disc. But I don't know if the way the OEM has set it up would allow it.
Me neither.
Post by Ed Cryer
Anyway, I have another suggestion.
Do full setup; do whatever else you want to do. Load all your stuff.
And then, whenever you want, take an image of just the Recovery partition.
That's the more normal situation. I was thinking about people who might
want to sell/give away PCs in "as new" condition; I can't see me ever
doing that (in much the same way as I run my cars into the ground,
rather than selling them).
Post by Ed Cryer
Ed
John
It would work if the thing POSTed; if it went into the normal pre-boot
sequence, gave you the choice of enter BIOS, change boot order, boot
from current setting.
But (and this is where I can't be 100% certain) I don't think they do;
they go straight into boot from C and pick up in the Win setup sequence
where the sysprep has left off.

If they did POST, then you could change to boot from DVD or USB, and do
whatever you wanted. You could treat your new OEM machine as a
bare-bones computer; completely format C, load chosen OS, bypass all the
crapware removal that we hate so much. You'd have the hardware and a
Win10 licence; so you could get the very latest Win10 downloaded
elsewhere and set it up with all updates.

Ed
Mayayana
2018-06-22 15:31:58 UTC
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"Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote

| It would work if the thing POSTed; if it went into the normal pre-boot
| sequence, gave you the choice of enter BIOS, change boot order, boot
| from current setting.
| But (and this is where I can't be 100% certain) I don't think they do;
| they go straight into boot from C and pick up in the Win setup sequence
| where the sysprep has left off.

That's hard to believe. I have seen awkward
designs, where you have to set it to boot
from CD and even then it will ask approval
before it does. And it can be hard to get
into BIOS when you have to press a certain key
at exactly the right moment. But I've never
heard of such a thing as a computer with no
BIOS access at all. Usually there are things in
there you might need to adjust on occasion.
VanguardLH
2018-06-22 09:23:43 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.

The OEM uses a sysprep image (by family line and model within family)
and ply a sticker on the case whose product key won't match the volume
license for the sysprep image they put on that computer and why you
should use Magic Jellybean or similar to record the product key for the
actual sysprep image on the HDD.

We're in the Windows 7 newsgroup. Maybe you were thinking of Windows 10
that has you create a Microsoft account; however, that is optional - you
don't have to create an MS account to complete the install but that
assumes YOU are doing the install and it isn't a pre-built PC. Even if
a pre-built, the OEM obviously cannot predefine an MS account for you.
They're reusing the same image to prep all the same model they're
selling to every customer, so they cannot create an account.

Enlighten us what account you speak of.
Ed Cryer
2018-06-22 14:17:46 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.
The OEM uses a sysprep image (by family line and model within family)
and ply a sticker on the case whose product key won't match the volume
license for the sysprep image they put on that computer and why you
should use Magic Jellybean or similar to record the product key for the
actual sysprep image on the HDD.
We're in the Windows 7 newsgroup. Maybe you were thinking of Windows 10
that has you create a Microsoft account; however, that is optional - you
don't have to create an MS account to complete the install but that
assumes YOU are doing the install and it isn't a pre-built PC. Even if
a pre-built, the OEM obviously cannot predefine an MS account for you.
They're reusing the same image to prep all the same model they're
selling to every customer, so they cannot create an account.
Enlighten us what account you speak of.
You're right about Win10. I use Win7 but I haven't done an OEM setup on
ones for decades. Win10, OTOH, many.

I must enlighten you about "account". An account is necessary; that's
the "a" in UAC.
Are you overlooking the fact that that "a" can be a "local" one?

Ed
VanguardLH
2018-06-22 17:39:46 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.
The OEM uses a sysprep image (by family line and model within family)
and ply a sticker on the case whose product key won't match the volume
license for the sysprep image they put on that computer and why you
should use Magic Jellybean or similar to record the product key for the
actual sysprep image on the HDD.
We're in the Windows 7 newsgroup. Maybe you were thinking of Windows 10
that has you create a Microsoft account; however, that is optional - you
don't have to create an MS account to complete the install but that
assumes YOU are doing the install and it isn't a pre-built PC. Even if
a pre-built, the OEM obviously cannot predefine an MS account for you.
They're reusing the same image to prep all the same model they're
selling to every customer, so they cannot create an account.
Enlighten us what account you speak of.
You're right about Win10. I use Win7 but I haven't done an OEM setup on
ones for decades. Win10, OTOH, many.
I must enlighten you about "account". An account is necessary; that's
the "a" in UAC.
Are you overlooking the fact that that "a" can be a "local" one?
And now you bring up UAC as though it were referenced before.

Oh, a Windows account aka user account. Okay, so why not either boot
using the Macrium CD and do an image of the drive (all partitions)
before you load or login to Windows to create an account, or you can
delete user profiles; however, deleting a profile only removes it from
the registry. You still have to delete (better to permanently wipe) the
userprofile folder for each account you have logged into.

Despite your mention that lots must be changed in the BIOS to boot from
the CD drive, if there is one, or from a USB drive, most PCs that I've
worked on already have those as the default boot order. Else, most
users wouldn't have a clue why they cannot boot from those sources. For
a PC to be configured to list the HDD first and then the other sources
or no other sources means someone went into the BIOS to change away from
the defaults in an attempt to lockdown that PC. How would users even
install Windows from a CD if the BIOS didn't boot from the device before
trying the HDD? While the CD or USB drive may be bootable before the
HDD, I've seen some that timeout. The BIOS/UEFI presents a prompt
asking the user to hit some key if they want to boot from those other
sources. If the user doesn't hit the key in, say, 5 seconds then the
BIOS/UEFI skips those boot sources and move on to the next one in the
boot order list.
VanguardLH
2018-06-22 17:45:50 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.
The OEM uses a sysprep image (by family line and model within family)
and ply a sticker on the case whose product key won't match the volume
license for the sysprep image they put on that computer and why you
should use Magic Jellybean or similar to record the product key for the
actual sysprep image on the HDD.
We're in the Windows 7 newsgroup. Maybe you were thinking of Windows 10
that has you create a Microsoft account; however, that is optional - you
don't have to create an MS account to complete the install but that
assumes YOU are doing the install and it isn't a pre-built PC. Even if
a pre-built, the OEM obviously cannot predefine an MS account for you.
They're reusing the same image to prep all the same model they're
selling to every customer, so they cannot create an account.
Enlighten us what account you speak of.
You're right about Win10. I use Win7 but I haven't done an OEM setup on
ones for decades. Win10, OTOH, many.
I must enlighten you about "account". An account is necessary; that's
the "a" in UAC.
Are you overlooking the fact that that "a" can be a "local" one?
And now you bring up UAC as though it were referenced before.
Oh, a Windows account aka user account. Okay, so why not either boot
using the Macrium CD and do an image of the drive (all partitions)
before you load or login to Windows to create an account, or you can
delete user profiles; however, deleting a profile only removes it from
the registry. You still have to delete (better to permanently wipe) the
userprofile folder for each account you have logged into.
Despite your mention that lots must be changed in the BIOS to boot from
the CD drive, if there is one, or from a USB drive, most PCs that I've
worked on already have those as the default boot order. Else, most
users wouldn't have a clue why they cannot boot from those sources. For
a PC to be configured to list the HDD first and then the other sources
or no other sources means someone went into the BIOS to change away from
the defaults in an attempt to lockdown that PC. How would users even
install Windows from a CD if the BIOS didn't boot from the device before
trying the HDD? While the CD or USB drive may be bootable before the
HDD, I've seen some that timeout. The BIOS/UEFI presents a prompt
asking the user to hit some key if they want to boot from those other
sources. If the user doesn't hit the key in, say, 5 seconds then the
BIOS/UEFI skips those boot sources and move on to the next one in the
boot order list.
Oh, an even if you want to argue that users have no bootstrap from their
prior PC to be creating a bootable Macrium rescue CD to do a whole-drive
image before loading Windows to create a user account, ANY image of all
partitions made at ANY time will include the recovery partition. So, if
you have no Macrium boot CD to start with, and later when you want to
get rid of the PC onto someone else, restore using that Macrium image
which has the recovery partition and run the recovery to lay a default
Windows image onto the drive. Probably want to wipe the OS partition
(and all others except the recovery partition) to make sure no personal
data gets left behind in clusters used before but not allocated in the
fresh recovered image.
Ed Cryer
2018-06-22 17:58:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by VanguardLH
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.
The OEM uses a sysprep image (by family line and model within family)
and ply a sticker on the case whose product key won't match the volume
license for the sysprep image they put on that computer and why you
should use Magic Jellybean or similar to record the product key for the
actual sysprep image on the HDD.
We're in the Windows 7 newsgroup. Maybe you were thinking of Windows 10
that has you create a Microsoft account; however, that is optional - you
don't have to create an MS account to complete the install but that
assumes YOU are doing the install and it isn't a pre-built PC. Even if
a pre-built, the OEM obviously cannot predefine an MS account for you.
They're reusing the same image to prep all the same model they're
selling to every customer, so they cannot create an account.
Enlighten us what account you speak of.
You're right about Win10. I use Win7 but I haven't done an OEM setup on
ones for decades. Win10, OTOH, many.
I must enlighten you about "account". An account is necessary; that's
the "a" in UAC.
Are you overlooking the fact that that "a" can be a "local" one?
And now you bring up UAC as though it were referenced before.
Oh, a Windows account aka user account. Okay, so why not either boot
using the Macrium CD and do an image of the drive (all partitions)
before you load or login to Windows to create an account, or you can
delete user profiles; however, deleting a profile only removes it from
the registry. You still have to delete (better to permanently wipe) the
userprofile folder for each account you have logged into.
Despite your mention that lots must be changed in the BIOS to boot from
the CD drive, if there is one, or from a USB drive, most PCs that I've
worked on already have those as the default boot order. Else, most
users wouldn't have a clue why they cannot boot from those sources. For
a PC to be configured to list the HDD first and then the other sources
or no other sources means someone went into the BIOS to change away from
the defaults in an attempt to lockdown that PC. How would users even
install Windows from a CD if the BIOS didn't boot from the device before
trying the HDD? While the CD or USB drive may be bootable before the
HDD, I've seen some that timeout. The BIOS/UEFI presents a prompt
asking the user to hit some key if they want to boot from those other
sources. If the user doesn't hit the key in, say, 5 seconds then the
BIOS/UEFI skips those boot sources and move on to the next one in the
boot order list.
Oh, an even if you want to argue that users have no bootstrap from their
prior PC to be creating a bootable Macrium rescue CD to do a whole-drive
image before loading Windows to create a user account, ANY image of all
partitions made at ANY time will include the recovery partition. So, if
you have no Macrium boot CD to start with, and later when you want to
get rid of the PC onto someone else, restore using that Macrium image
which has the recovery partition and run the recovery to lay a default
Windows image onto the drive. Probably want to wipe the OS partition
(and all others except the recovery partition) to make sure no personal
data gets left behind in clusters used before but not allocated in the
fresh recovered image.
Imaging the recovery partition with the rest of the HD/SSD is what I
always do. And (incidentally) I do it with this Win7 box; have done for
years.

Ed
Ant
2018-06-23 00:44:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by VanguardLH
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.
The OEM uses a sysprep image (by family line and model within family)
and ply a sticker on the case whose product key won't match the volume
license for the sysprep image they put on that computer and why you
should use Magic Jellybean or similar to record the product key for the
actual sysprep image on the HDD.
We're in the Windows 7 newsgroup. Maybe you were thinking of Windows 10
that has you create a Microsoft account; however, that is optional - you
don't have to create an MS account to complete the install but that
assumes YOU are doing the install and it isn't a pre-built PC. Even if
a pre-built, the OEM obviously cannot predefine an MS account for you.
They're reusing the same image to prep all the same model they're
selling to every customer, so they cannot create an account.
Enlighten us what account you speak of.
You're right about Win10. I use Win7 but I haven't done an OEM setup on
ones for decades. Win10, OTOH, many.
I must enlighten you about "account". An account is necessary; that's
the "a" in UAC.
Are you overlooking the fact that that "a" can be a "local" one?
And now you bring up UAC as though it were referenced before.
Oh, a Windows account aka user account. Okay, so why not either boot
using the Macrium CD and do an image of the drive (all partitions)
before you load or login to Windows to create an account, or you can
delete user profiles; however, deleting a profile only removes it from
the registry. You still have to delete (better to permanently wipe) the
userprofile folder for each account you have logged into.
Despite your mention that lots must be changed in the BIOS to boot from
the CD drive, if there is one, or from a USB drive, most PCs that I've
worked on already have those as the default boot order. Else, most
users wouldn't have a clue why they cannot boot from those sources. For
a PC to be configured to list the HDD first and then the other sources
or no other sources means someone went into the BIOS to change away from
the defaults in an attempt to lockdown that PC. How would users even
install Windows from a CD if the BIOS didn't boot from the device before
trying the HDD? While the CD or USB drive may be bootable before the
HDD, I've seen some that timeout. The BIOS/UEFI presents a prompt
asking the user to hit some key if they want to boot from those other
sources. If the user doesn't hit the key in, say, 5 seconds then the
BIOS/UEFI skips those boot sources and move on to the next one in the
boot order list.
Oh, an even if you want to argue that users have no bootstrap from their
prior PC to be creating a bootable Macrium rescue CD to do a whole-drive
image before loading Windows to create a user account, ANY image of all
partitions made at ANY time will include the recovery partition. So, if
you have no Macrium boot CD to start with, and later when you want to
get rid of the PC onto someone else, restore using that Macrium image
which has the recovery partition and run the recovery to lay a default
Windows image onto the drive. Probably want to wipe the OS partition
(and all others except the recovery partition) to make sure no personal
data gets left behind in clusters used before but not allocated in the
fresh recovered image.
Imaging the recovery partition with the rest of the HD/SSD is what I
always do. And (incidentally) I do it with this Win7 box; have done for
years.
Isn't it better to make images for each partition? Like an image for
recovery, an image for OS, image for whatever left, etc.? It seems
easier to manage that way for my setups.
--
Quote of the Week: "At high tide the fish eat ants; at low tide the ants eat fish." --Thai Proverb
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-23 03:12:59 UTC
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[]
Post by Ant
Post by Ed Cryer
Imaging the recovery partition with the rest of the HD/SSD is what I
always do. And (incidentally) I do it with this Win7 box; have done for
years.
Isn't it better to make images for each partition? Like an image for
recovery, an image for OS, image for whatever left, etc.? It seems
easier to manage that way for my setups.
Depends _why_ you're making images. I image (C: & any hidden partition),
to a single image file (which means when I restore from it, the boot
sector/master table/whatever get set up for me) so that in the event of
drive failure, I can restore my system - OS (including activation),
updates, software, configurations, and tweaks - all in one go. [I backup
_data_ using just synctoy - basically just a copy.] Some people might be
doing it so they can restore an as-new condition to sell or give away;
others might be imaging for other reasons again.

I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original configuration
anyway. Or, for that matter, if you aren't - though in that case, I'm
not sure I'd image some of them at all. But I'll be interested to see
others' answers to your question!

I'm probably not seeing your point about separate images for each
partition making it "easier to manage for my setups"; perhaps if you
explained why, I'd understand how. (Or how/why.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Address the chair!" "There isn't a chair, there's only a rock!" "Well, call
it a chair!" "Why not call it a rock?" (First series, fit the sixth.)
Paul
2018-06-23 04:09:46 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original configuration
anyway. Or, for that matter, if you aren't - though in that case, I'm
not sure I'd image some of them at all. But I'll be interested to see
others' answers to your question!
That's to control "fault size".

If you have a large disk, you put all the partitions in
one .mrimg, all it takes is one error to break the "Verify".

Separating the partitions, backing up one at a time,
each .mrimg has a copy of the MBR partition table, so
you should try to keep a backup set "consistent" in
terms of the partition structure. While it's not
the end of the world to have modified something, I
don't know if there are any corner cases you might
care about.

You could probably afford to put several 20GB partitions
into one .mrimg.

But if the partitions are 2TB and take half the day to
write, chances are those should be done individually.
Then if one is ruined, the others might not be ruined.

I haven't researched what mechanisms exist to "step over"
an error. Presumably part of the backup operation, is
writing out clusters in cluster_order. At the end of the
backup is some sort of directory structure (because there's
a delay at the end, implying something is going on when
it hits 100%). If some clusters were damaged, the restore
process should be able to consult the directory structure
and say what is damaged. But it didn't work that way for
me when I had a couple bad .mrimg files. The restore
just stopped. (The bad files were caused by bad RAM, not
by a hard drive problem. Backups made recently on the
same computer with new RAM installed, pass Verify, and
I actually tested a couple during my last backup set to
make sure it's still good.)

Paul
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-23 04:41:25 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original
configuration anyway. Or, for that matter, if you aren't - though in
that case, I'm not sure I'd image some of them at all. But I'll be
interested to see others' answers to your question!
That's to control "fault size".
If you have a large disk, you put all the partitions in
one .mrimg, all it takes is one error to break the "Verify".
Separating the partitions, backing up one at a time,
each .mrimg has a copy of the MBR partition table, so
I didn't know that; thanks. So if you restore an image that contained
just your D: partition, say, the MBR is refreshed?
Post by Paul
you should try to keep a backup set "consistent" in
terms of the partition structure. While it's not
the end of the world to have modified something, I
don't know if there are any corner cases you might
care about.
You could probably afford to put several 20GB partitions
into one .mrimg.
But if the partitions are 2TB and take half the day to
write, chances are those should be done individually.
Then if one is ruined, the others might not be ruined.
I definitely take your point there! I image my C: and any hidden
partitions, which comes to a few tens of GB; for my data partition, I
copy, rather than imaging - I use synctoy. So that I could - though have
never had to - access individual files without needing the
image-unwrapper (such as Macrium); and, also, your fault size limit
principle, of not putting all eggs in one basket. (I'd rather not image
C: either, but the practicalities - I think started as an antipiracy
measure, but developed to include lots else since - mean imaging is the
only practical backup for most of us.)
Post by Paul
I haven't researched what mechanisms exist to "step over"
an error. Presumably part of the backup operation, is
writing out clusters in cluster_order. At the end of the
backup is some sort of directory structure (because there's
a delay at the end, implying something is going on when
I'd noticed that delay - hadn't occurred to me that it might be for that
reason though!
Post by Paul
it hits 100%). If some clusters were damaged, the restore
process should be able to consult the directory structure
and say what is damaged. But it didn't work that way for
me when I had a couple bad .mrimg files. The restore
just stopped. (The bad files were caused by bad RAM, not
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Odds are, the phrase "It's none of my business" will be followed by "but".
Paul
2018-06-23 04:48:42 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Paul
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original
configuration anyway. Or, for that matter, if you aren't - though in
that case, I'm not sure I'd image some of them at all. But I'll be
interested to see others' answers to your question!
That's to control "fault size".
If you have a large disk, you put all the partitions in
one .mrimg, all it takes is one error to break the "Verify".
Separating the partitions, backing up one at a time,
each .mrimg has a copy of the MBR partition table, so
I didn't know that; thanks. So if you restore an image that contained
just your D: partition, say, the MBR is refreshed?
In some cases, the MBR is "compared".

And the stupid tool will ask you "do you want the
original partition table or do you want to let
me fix this mess". That's why I don't generally
recommend capturing disks while the partition
tables are "all different". You don't want to be
sitting there with that "what do I do now" look
on your face.

Suffice to say, the tool keeps records for its
own purposes. They aren't "partitions floating in space",
and the partition table info is part of records keeping.
It tries to do the best it can, with the hand
of cards you deal to it :-)

At the very least, it's going to need to preserve
the "boot flag", the 0x80 thing that the Windows
boot code uses to find the correct partition to
start from. Most other numbers in the partition table
can be modified, as the user deals cards to the
tool, and the tool tries to do its best to
keep up.

Paul
Ed Cryer
2018-06-23 12:26:31 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Paul
 I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original
configuration  anyway. Or, for that matter, if you aren't - though
in that case, I'm  not sure I'd image some of them at all. But I'll
be interested to see  others' answers to your question!
That's to control "fault size".
If you have a large disk, you put all the partitions in
one .mrimg, all it takes is one error to break the "Verify".
Separating the partitions, backing up one at a time,
each .mrimg has a copy of the MBR partition table, so
I didn't know that; thanks. So if you restore an image that contained
just your D: partition, say, the MBR is refreshed?
In some cases, the MBR is "compared".
And the stupid tool will ask you "do you want the
original partition table or do you want to let
me fix this mess". That's why I don't generally
recommend capturing disks while the partition
tables are "all different". You don't want to be
sitting there with that "what do I do now" look
on your face.
Suffice to say, the tool keeps records for its
own purposes. They aren't "partitions floating in space",
and the partition table info is part of records keeping.
It tries to do the best it can, with the hand
of cards you deal to it :-)
At the very least, it's going to need to preserve
the "boot flag", the 0x80 thing that the Windows
boot code uses to find the correct partition to
start from. Most other numbers in the partition table
can be modified, as the user deals cards to the
tool, and the tool tries to do its best to
keep up.
   Paul
I save the whole C drive just like John. I don't think I ever exceeded
120GB, though.
Each partition in the image is accessible and mountable as a virtual
drive, just by right-clicking the image and choosing "explore image"
from the context menu.

Ed
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-23 22:31:12 UTC
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In message <pglea7$3ng$***@dont-email.me>, Ed Cryer
<***@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:
[]
Post by Ed Cryer
I save the whole C drive just like John. I don't think I ever exceeded
120GB, though.
Each partition in the image is accessible and mountable as a virtual
drive, just by right-clicking the image and choosing "explore image"
from the context menu.
Ed
Only if Macrium is installed on that machine (and associated with that
filetype, though installing it will probably do that).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anything you add for security will slow the computer but it shouldn't be
significant or prolonged. Security software is to protect the computer, not
the primary use of the computer.
- VanguardLH in alt.windows7.general, 2018-1-28
Mayayana
2018-06-23 12:48:53 UTC
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| >Isn't it better to make images for each partition? Like an image for
| >recovery, an image for OS, image for whatever left, etc.? It seems
| >easier to manage that way for my setups.
| >
| Depends _why_ you're making images. I image (C: & any hidden partition),
| to a single image file (which means when I restore from it, the boot
| sector/master table/whatever get set up for me) so that in the event of
| drive failure, I can restore my system - OS (including activation),
| updates, software, configurations, and tweaks - all in one go. [I backup
| _data_ using just synctoy - basically just a copy.] Some people might be
| doing it so they can restore an as-new condition to sell or give away;
| others might be imaging for other reasons again.
|
| I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
| partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original configuration
| anyway.

I put an OS image on one or two DVDs. What you're
describing is basically a disk clone. It may be compressed,
but you're backing up all of your data unnecessarily.
(Assuming "synctoy" is something you use to back up
data seaprately from imaging.)

I don't know how big that ends up being, but it sounds
like you need a 2nd hard disk just to hold your backup.
In that case, why not just copy disk to disk?

So a big part of the reason to image partitions separately
is to have conveniently-sized backups that don't require
a hard disk or expensive USB stick to store. That's just
wasting space. But it requires a little planning to do itr more
efficiently. If you just install Windows on a 500 GB C drive
and put all of your files in your docs folder then you may
be stuck backing up one giant pile of stuff. Every time you
want to back up one doc you're also backing up GBs of
system files unnecessarily. Even if you have some kind of
tool to only back up changed files, you're still maintaining
a massive backup that you don't need.

I think this also gets back to whether people are
willing to deal with partitioning and disk issues. You
shouldn't need to be backing up restore partitions,
MBRs, or anything like that. If you're using a disk
image program it should be able to make an image
of any partition and restore it to any disk. But that
does require getting into more details. For instance,
you need to know about boot config. If you make an
image of Win7 that's the second partition and then
install it to a disk as 1st partition, it won't boot. It
will try to boot the 2nd partition. And even that will only
work if you've set it active. But once you work out
those details you no longer need to be tied to disk
layout with your backups.

On a typical disk I'll have 1-3 OSs and maybe 5
data partitions. One of those is changeable data like
business receipts, email, current desktop, programming
work, website files, etc. One is graphics/video. One
is non-changing data like manuals for appliances,
programming docs, Windows SDKs, program installers,
etc.

I also like to use a 2nd disk for redundancy. And
I make disk images of fresh OSs, configured and with
most software installed.
With that setup in place, I make occasional copies
of the graphics and non-changing data. I make regular
backups to DVD of the changing data. That comes to
less than 1 GB. I never need to back up Windows
because I already have disk images of a fresh,
configured system.

If there are problems I can put back the OS quickly
without disturbing the data. There's nothing important
that I have only on C drive.

With XP the OS+software is about 1.5 GB. I make
the C partition 10 GB. With 7 I make it 60 GB. The
basic OS image is 7-9 GB and requires 2 DVDs to
store.

That's also a big part of the reason I like to avoid
bloat. Bloated software is typically a sign of sloppy
or inexperienced programmers. But it also takes up a
lot of space. Many people respond to that by saying,
"Well, these days hard disk space doesn't cost much."
But that misses the point. The same basic software
that used to be 30 MB is now often 300 MB. It's crazy.
It's sloppy. And it's inefficient. (A big part of Vista/7
bloat is that MS forces one to accept a copy of the
whole install DVD on disk, along with a copy of every
single library that happens by during the course of
using the computer. Win7 can grow to 40-60 GB for
one reason only: So that plug and play appears to
be improved. Just in case you end up somehow installing
an Intel graphics chip on your AMD system, you have
the drivers ready to go. :)

You might have an attic the size of a football field,
but that's not a reason to fill it with junk. With a little
planning, Windows and data can still be realistically
stored on DVDs and/or inexpensive-sized USB sticks.
I have images for all of our computers, ready to restore,
and backed up to numerous locations. All on CDs or DVDs.

But people are different. There's one category of people
that I can think of offhand who can never have efficient
backup. That's the people who hoard and never weed.
The people who have 100 GB of music and videos,
along with 2 TB of photos. They'll never look
at most of that again. Probably most of the photos are
worthless. But to those people it's their riches and they
want it all backed up. They have no choice but to buy
extra hard disks and copy disk-to-disk. Nothing else is
big enough to back up their football-field-sized attic.
They're the same people who, 30 years ago, would
have had a floor-to-celing bookshelf to store their photo
albums. And when you go to dinner you're careful not
to walk near that room, lest they invite you in: "Did
you ever see the pictures from our 1970 trip to the
Yukon? Oh, you gotta see them. The snow is amazing!
Come on in. Here, sit on the sofa while I find the 4
Yukon trip albums..... Let's see.... I should probably
organize these albums alphabetically, but it's all moving
to a bigger library once we finish building the addition.
Maybe I'll organize it all then.... Oh, here we go! I found
Yukon Trip #2, anyway..."
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-24 00:02:35 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| >Isn't it better to make images for each partition? Like an image for
| >recovery, an image for OS, image for whatever left, etc.? It seems
| >easier to manage that way for my setups.
| >
| Depends _why_ you're making images. I image (C: & any hidden partition),
| to a single image file (which means when I restore from it, the boot
| sector/master table/whatever get set up for me) so that in the event of
| drive failure, I can restore my system - OS (including activation),
| updates, software, configurations, and tweaks - all in one go. [I backup
| _data_ using just synctoy - basically just a copy.] Some people might be
| doing it so they can restore an as-new condition to sell or give away;
| others might be imaging for other reasons again.
|
| I can't think of a good reason for making separate images for each
| partition, _if_ you're anticipating restoring the original configuration
| anyway.
I put an OS image on one or two DVDs. What you're
describing is basically a disk clone. It may be compressed,
but you're backing up all of your data unnecessarily.
(Assuming "synctoy" is something you use to back up
data seaprately from imaging.)
No. I make a Macrium image - often uncompressed. That's a single file,
on an external disc. Of my C: partition and the hidden ones, so that I
can restore everything in one go, to a new disc if necessary. Sorry, by
"everything" I mean the OS and updates and tweaks and software, _not_
data; data I just copy to the backup drive. (SyncToy is just a
(SysInternals) utility that makes the copying go faster, by only copying
what's changed since last time.)
Post by Mayayana
I don't know how big that ends up being, but it sounds
like you need a 2nd hard disk just to hold your backup.
In that case, why not just copy disk to disk?
Because (a) I keep several images/copies on the backup disk, (b) I have
images/copies from more than one computer on it.
Post by Mayayana
So a big part of the reason to image partitions separately
is to have conveniently-sized backups that don't require
a hard disk or expensive USB stick to store. That's just
wasting space. But it requires a little planning to do itr more
efficiently. If you just install Windows on a 500 GB C drive
and put all of your files in your docs folder then you may
be stuck backing up one giant pile of stuff. Every time you
I don't; I keep all my _data_ - sounds, images, videos, downloaded
installers, genealogy stuff, documents - on D:; more or less all that's
on C: is stuff that needs _maintaining_, and/or would take a _long_ time
to reconfigure as I like it.
Post by Mayayana
want to back up one doc you're also backing up GBs of
system files unnecessarily. Even if you have some kind of
tool to only back up changed files, you're still maintaining
a massive backup that you don't need.
That's always a matter of opinion. _Everybody_ backs up stuff they don't
need backed up, and doesn't back up stuff they later wish they had! (And
that applies to both images and backups.)
Post by Mayayana
I think this also gets back to whether people are
willing to deal with partitioning and disk issues. You
shouldn't need to be backing up restore partitions,
MBRs, or anything like that. If you're using a disk
image program it should be able to make an image
of any partition and restore it to any disk. But that
Yes, but given the small size of the restore partition and MBRs compared
to even just the C: partition, it's negligible extra storage (and time):
and also, after the distressing event of a hard disc failure, many
people don't want to have to mess around restoring individual partitions
when they get the replacement - they just want to set it going, and
leave it to it.
Post by Mayayana
does require getting into more details. For instance,
you need to know about boot config. If you make an
image of Win7 that's the second partition and then
install it to a disk as 1st partition, it won't boot. It
will try to boot the 2nd partition. And even that will only
work if you've set it active. But once you work out
those details you no longer need to be tied to disk
layout with your backups.
On a typical disk I'll have 1-3 OSs and maybe 5
I don't think that makes you a typical user, even here! OK, among those
here, I'm nearer the "user" end of the spectrum - I just want to _use_
the computer, rather than tinker with it, especially as I get older. I
take precautions that enable me to resume if the HD dies, but otherwise
am not trying new (to me) OSs and the like.
Post by Mayayana
data partitions. One of those is changeable data like
business receipts, email, current desktop, programming
work, website files, etc. One is graphics/video. One
is non-changing data like manuals for appliances,
programming docs, Windows SDKs, program installers,
etc.
I also like to use a 2nd disk for redundancy. And
I make disk images of fresh OSs, configured and with
most software installed.
I would, but I use a laptop (despite the fact that I never thought I
would use it as more than a toy, or for its portability, when I got my
first one [one that had been upgraded to Windows 98: I don't think it
was even built for that] - but soon found I was using it as my main
machine), and most don't have more than one drive bay.
Post by Mayayana
With that setup in place, I make occasional copies
of the graphics and non-changing data. I make regular
backups to DVD of the changing data. That comes to
less than 1 GB. I never need to back up Windows
because I already have disk images of a fresh,
configured system.
Again, that's one of the places we differ: I wouldn't _want_ an image of
a _fresh_ system, because I know (or even, I don't!) how long it would
take me to restore such a system - reinstall software, and tweak
everything how I like it. (Even ignoring all the OS updates.) The _only_
reason _I_ would make such an image would be to protect the activation
status of the OS (and any software that was subject to similar, but I
don't have any such). Since my image of my tweaked system also has this,
I don't need the "pristine" one. OK, there's always the chance I might
make some change that "breaks" the OS, and not notice I'd done so until
too late - but having two or more backups/images (taken at intervals of
a few months) protects me from that to _some_ extent (I could go back to
a previous one).
Post by Mayayana
If there are problems I can put back the OS quickly
without disturbing the data. There's nothing important
that I have only on C drive.
With XP the OS+software is about 1.5 GB. I make
the C partition 10 GB. With 7 I make it 60 GB. The
basic OS image is 7-9 GB and requires 2 DVDs to
store.
I think my XP C: was about 25G, to include the OS and all _installed_
software (plus the data from the few badly-behaved softwares that would
insist on using C:; I don't allow many of those). On this 7, it's 100G,
but that's probably too big, just because it's a 1T (actually 931G of
course); only 31.5G of it is currently occupied.
Post by Mayayana
That's also a big part of the reason I like to avoid
bloat. Bloated software is typically a sign of sloppy
You and me both.
Post by Mayayana
or inexperienced programmers. But it also takes up a
lot of space. Many people respond to that by saying,
"Well, these days hard disk space doesn't cost much."
But that misses the point. The same basic software
that used to be 30 MB is now often 300 MB. It's crazy.
It's sloppy. And it's inefficient. (A big part of Vista/7
Yup. The same attitude prevails re processor power. But I still feel
efficient code (like IrfanView, for example) is slicker, even with
modern multicore processors: I think it's in the _mindset_ of the
programmer. (The code doesn't _do_ unnecessary things.)
Post by Mayayana
bloat is that MS forces one to accept a copy of the
whole install DVD on disk, along with a copy of every
single library that happens by during the course of
using the computer. Win7 can grow to 40-60 GB for
one reason only: So that plug and play appears to
be improved. Just in case you end up somehow installing
an Intel graphics chip on your AMD system, you have
the drivers ready to go. :)
That WinSXS folder they tell us its wisest not to mess with is a big
part of that, isn't it? It accounts for 7.16G of the 31.5G on my C:, and
that's after only a year or two of real use (and not being very
enthusiastic about installing "up"dates).
Post by Mayayana
You might have an attic the size of a football field,
but that's not a reason to fill it with junk. With a little
planning, Windows and data can still be realistically
stored on DVDs and/or inexpensive-sized USB sticks.
I have images for all of our computers, ready to restore,
and backed up to numerous locations. All on CDs or DVDs.
But people are different. There's one category of people
that I can think of offhand who can never have efficient
backup. That's the people who hoard and never weed.
The people who have 100 GB of music and videos,
along with 2 TB of photos. They'll never look
(And probably operate their digital camera at its maximum resolution all
the time. I have mine - which is only 3M anyway! [but has a good lens]
set to 1M most of the time.)
Post by Mayayana
at most of that again. Probably most of the photos are
worthless. But to those people it's their riches and they
want it all backed up. They have no choice but to buy
extra hard disks and copy disk-to-disk. Nothing else is
big enough to back up their football-field-sized attic.
They're the same people who, 30 years ago, would
have had a floor-to-celing bookshelf to store their photo
albums. And when you go to dinner you're careful not
to walk near that room, lest they invite you in: "Did
you ever see the pictures from our 1970 trip to the
Yukon? Oh, you gotta see them. The snow is amazing!
Come on in. Here, sit on the sofa while I find the 4
Yukon trip albums..... Let's see.... I should probably
organize these albums alphabetically, but it's all moving
to a bigger library once we finish building the addition.
Maybe I'll organize it all then.... Oh, here we go! I found
Yukon Trip #2, anyway..."
I guess the computer equivalent is not having - or only having very few
- subdirectories, so you have hundreds (or thousands) of files at each
level. If I have more than a few tens of items in a folder (and that
includes the subfolders too in the count!), I feel it's time to
subdivide (and sometimes weed). But Microsoft themselves are one of the
worst offenders in this respect.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anything you add for security will slow the computer but it shouldn't be
significant or prolonged. Security software is to protect the computer, not
the primary use of the computer.
- VanguardLH in alt.windows7.general, 2018-1-28
Mayayana
2018-06-24 01:07:32 UTC
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| Again, that's one of the places we differ: I wouldn't _want_ an image of
| a _fresh_ system, because I know (or even, I don't!) how long it would
| take me to restore such a system - reinstall software, and tweak
| everything how I like it.

Actually it sounds like we're doing pretty much the
same thing. By fresh system I mean Windows with all
drivers and most software installed, and with
configuration done as much as possible. So all I
need to do it to import backed up data, like email,
and it's ready to go.
The only things I don't set up are things like Libre
Office, which takes up a lot of room and I don't really
customize the setup.

Like you, I might also occasionally do a current
image, if I'm doing something risky. But mostly I
depend on my "fresh" image and backed up data.

|> Win7 can grow to 40-60 GB for
| >one reason only: So that plug and play appears to
| >be improved. Just in case you end up somehow installing
| >an Intel graphics chip on your AMD system, you have
| >the drivers ready to go. :)
|
| That WinSXS folder they tell us its wisest not to mess with is a big
| part of that, isn't it? It accounts for 7.16G of the 31.5G on my C:, and
| that's after only a year or two of real use (and not being very
| enthusiastic about installing "up"dates).

Yes. Winsxs is mainly what I'm talking about. There's
also a smaller driver backup, but that can be deleted.
Winsxs starts out at about 4 GB, being basically a copy of
the install DVD. It would be nice if they asked before
doing that.

There is, also, one other factor: I'm not sure of the
details on Win7 but sxs means "side-by-side". It's an
idea to cure "DLL hell". It used to be that things could
easily get screwed up when Acme editor installed abc.dll
v. 4.1 and then Ace Editor overwrote that with v. 3 or
v. 5, or even v. 4.11. Microsoft once had a famous
case where they had different DLLs for RichEdit, a core
component. Their instructions for people who needed to
install it with their software were bizarre:

-----------------------------------------------
There are three different Riched32.dll files that have the version number
5.0.1458.47, and one of them is not redistributable. This article describes
the differences between these files and includes additional distribution
information.

MORE INFORMATION
Each of the three Riched32.dll files with the version number 5.0.1458.47,
and has a different size. These versions are:

. A 169KB version (general release).
. A 176KB version that is optimized for loading on Windows 98, but is
identical in code to the general release version.
. A 225KB version that was released by the Microsoft Exchange group. It is
intended to cover all localized versions and is dependent upon GAPI32.dll.

Of these three versions of Riched32.dll 5.0.1458.47, you can only distribute
the 169KB or 176KB versions. If the target computer is already using the
225KB version, do not replace it with another Riched32.dll with the same
version number or older.

Also, keep the following in mind when distributing Riched32.dll using
third-party setup programs:

. If the target computer is running NT 4.0, your setup program should not
replace Riched32.dll.
. Riched32.dll is a part of the operation system installation of Windows
2000. Setup programs installing to Windows 2000 should not install
Riched32.dll.
---------------------------------------------

Similar problems could happen with COM libraries.

Side-by-side is the slightly dubious idea that the problem
can be solved by letting each program have its own
version of a library, and store it in their private program
folder if need be. So you can end up with, say, the
Visual C++ runtimes in an almost limitless variety.
First there's a version for each releas: VC 2008,
VC 2010, etc. But then there are also incremental versions.
I have 11 versions of the VC 2008 runtime just on
my XP system! Probably each one was installed by a
different program.

Winsxs seems to be an institutionalizing of that idea.
If 67 versions of abcdef.dll float by then Windows will
grab a copy of each and put it into winsxs. That way
the Ace software can use v. 1.413.2 and Acme can use
1.413.3. In 99% of cases it won't make any difference.
Like copying all drivers to disk, it's an extremely sloppy,
bloated way to make windows seem more stable.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-24 02:14:05 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Again, that's one of the places we differ: I wouldn't _want_ an image of
| a _fresh_ system, because I know (or even, I don't!) how long it would
| take me to restore such a system - reinstall software, and tweak
| everything how I like it.
Actually it sounds like we're doing pretty much the
same thing. By fresh system I mean Windows with all
drivers and most software installed, and with
configuration done as much as possible. So all I
need to do it to import backed up data, like email,
and it's ready to go.
Ah, right. I'd assumed you meant an as-new system with no software
beyond the OS.
[]
Post by Mayayana
| That WinSXS folder they tell us its wisest not to mess with is a big
| part of that, isn't it? It accounts for 7.16G of the 31.5G on my C:, and
| that's after only a year or two of real use (and not being very
| enthusiastic about installing "up"dates).
Yes. Winsxs is mainly what I'm talking about. There's
also a smaller driver backup, but that can be deleted.
(I wouldn't mind; drivers, if they're pure drivers and not megabloatware
[I'm looking at you, hp, with printer install discs - well, all printer
manufacturers], are arguably useful, and certainly small.)
Post by Mayayana
Winsxs starts out at about 4 GB, being basically a copy of
the install DVD. It would be nice if they asked before
doing that.
I wouldn't mind just that; IIRR, I used to usually copy the '98 install
CD - or the bit with the CABs in it, anyway - to somewhere on the HD; I
actually installed from that, which meant anything that subsequently
would have asked me to re-insert the CD, didn't.
Post by Mayayana
There is, also, one other factor: I'm not sure of the
details on Win7 but sxs means "side-by-side". It's an
idea to cure "DLL hell". It used to be that things could
[]
Post by Mayayana
Similar problems could happen with COM libraries.
Like many things, I thought the original concept of DLLs was a good
idea; even updates to them. But insufficient care was taken in ensuring
backward compatibility when updating.
Post by Mayayana
Side-by-side is the slightly dubious idea that the problem
can be solved by letting each program have its own
version of a library, and store it in their private program
folder if need be. So you can end up with, say, the
Visual C++ runtimes in an almost limitless variety.
Once we got beyond a certain point in the cheapness of disc space, that
was a workable, if lazy, solution. Though if you were going to have your
own version anyway, then you might as well not bother with separate
DLLs, but just include the code in the executables that wanted it.
[]
Post by Mayayana
Winsxs seems to be an institutionalizing of that idea.
If 67 versions of abcdef.dll float by then Windows will
grab a copy of each and put it into winsxs. That way
the Ace software can use v. 1.413.2 and Acme can use
1.413.3. In 99% of cases it won't make any difference.
Like copying all drivers to disk, it's an extremely sloppy,
bloated way to make windows seem more stable.
Again, I wouldn't mind that sloppy approach _too_ much if it kept
human-readable logs, showing what had installed what (and, I suppose,
including notes on what _hadn't_ installed what because it was already
there - i. e. a log of what _used_ what), so anyone so minded can clean
it up if they wish. At present, I just accept it - 7-8G is irritating,
but not yet more than that on a "1T" drive.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder...
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-22 14:50:17 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Ed Cryer
When you set up a brand new OEM PC, it takes you through account
creation before you can do anything (even install Macrium).
Your solution would restore that account.
Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
established when you "set up" a new OEM PC? The pre-built (OEM) PC is
already setup before you even get it. I've gotten stuck working on
several pre-builts and don't remember ever being forced to create some
"account" before the PC is usable nor after starting to use it.
The installation process asks for a 'Username' and a 'Password'.
*That* 'creates' the account. (At least that's the case for XP, Vista
and 8.1, so assume 7 is similar.)

So my (local) account is 'Frank'. The OEM (HP) didn't know that when
it shipped the laptop.

So yes, an account is created or at least named, which - in this
context - amounts to the same thing.

[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Enlighten us what account you speak of.
The one with your name! :-)
Mayayana
2018-06-22 15:10:35 UTC
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"Frank Slootweg" <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| > Not a clue what you are talking about. WHAT account is forcibly
| > established when you "set up" a new OEM PC?

| The installation process asks for a 'Username' and a 'Password'.
| *That* 'creates' the account. (At least that's the case for XP, Vista
| and 8.1, so assume 7 is similar.)
|
| So my (local) account is 'Frank'. The OEM (HP) didn't know that when
| it shipped the laptop.
|

I think that's something that most people are
not really aware of. There's no requirement to
have a password or boot screen. That's mostly
a corporate thing. When I set up a system for
someone I just name the user Admin, Def, or
some such. For the sake of privacy. Since it won't
matter to them and they generally won't see it,
it's best not to use real names. Current user name
can show up in all kinds of places. (Frank should be
OK, though. No one will know which Frank you are. :)

But all of this was also a red herring issue. There's
no need to boot into the new setup and configure
it before making a disk image.

What I can't figure out is why so many people
want to give away their computer with an
official HP logo booting to the desktop. Maybe
those are the people who want the computer
to log them in as "Xavier T. Winterbottom" so
they can feel their computer is personalized, and
they assume the next person will want similar
"personalization"?

Little do they know that it serves no purpose other
than to provide more personal data for "telemetry"
collection.

In fact, it can sometimes be much better not
to provide any info at all, since it's not relevant
in the first place on a single-user, SOHo computer.
I have a brother who once bought a scanner for
his Mac that came with a full, free version of
Photoshop 4. When he went to buy the update to
PS5, Adobe refused. He had entered his company
name in setup and Adobe thus claimed that he
didn't own the license, even though he'd never
actually used the software at work, had registered it
at install, and had bought the scanner himself! In
the meantime, he'd left the company he'd been
working for. Fortunately, they were nice enough
to write a letter for Adobe, attesting that they
had not bought the scanner or provided the
software. So eventually the update went through.

I avoid dealing with the likes of Adobe. But since
that time I'm all the more careful to avoid entering
info during setup. It's none of their business. If
forced I'll enter something like
name: default
company: none

I wouldn't put it past Adobe to say I can't have
an update because "none, inc" owns my computer.
On the other hand, Adobe no longer has updates,
anyway. It's the rental way or the highway now
with them.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-27 02:10:22 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
I think that's something that most people are
not really aware of. There's no requirement to
have a password or boot screen. That's mostly
a corporate thing. When I set up a system for
someone I just name the user Admin, Def, or
some such. For the sake of privacy.
Place I bought second hand laptops from makes the default account
"Owner".
So when I set this box up - I named it "Owner" too.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
pjp
2018-06-27 03:37:00 UTC
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Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Mayayana
I think that's something that most people are
not really aware of. There's no requirement to
have a password or boot screen. That's mostly
a corporate thing. When I set up a system for
someone I just name the user Admin, Def, or
some such. For the sake of privacy.
Place I bought second hand laptops from makes the default account
"Owner".
So when I set this box up - I named it "Owner" too.
I usually use "Anyone" and leave password blank. Then machine boots to
desktop unless/until another user created or "Anyone" is assigned a
password.

Brian Gregory
2018-06-22 16:35:19 UTC
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Post by (PeteCresswell)
I want to replace a 1 TB drive that's on it's last legs with a 2-TB drive.
I imaged the sick drive with Macrium Reflect, creating a single file.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rEFsF2H9F7mNJXjRA
When I just restore the image to the 2 TB file, I get a system that works,
but the additional space is unavailable for expansion of the "Data" partition
because "HP_RECOVERY" sits in the middle - between existing "Data" and the
new unused space.
I've tried to fool Mother Nature a number of ways - but with no success.
It seems like that HP_RECOVERY is both essential to the day-to-day operation
of the system ("Recovery" ????) AND is required to be the third partition
because I've tried to force the issue by allocating a beeeeg "Data" and then
restoring HP_RECOVERY at the end - but to no avail.
Is this a fool's errand?
My agenda is to make that extra TB available as part of the "Data" partition
so I have almost 1.5 TB available for "Data".
Is there no way to move the HP_RECOVERY partition to the end of the
drive before trying to expand the Data partition?

Usually that's what you have to do. I'm pretty certain I remember doing
it fairly easily somehow. If not with the Windows Disk Management
perhaps with PartedMagic or something similar.
--
Brian Gregory (in England).
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