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Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10
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Mayayana
2018-06-11 14:00:22 UTC
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https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/

No help from Microsoft staff in any help
forums except Win10, the very latest MS Office,
etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
VanguardLH
2018-06-11 14:55:03 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.

"Keep 'em busy so they don't know the response is irrelevant." It's the
same reason you hear music "noise" while on hold, so you don't become
impatient to think that the call got disconnected because the hold is so
damn long. What, you've seen seen some slacker at work that stays busy
doing nothing hoping his supervisor doesn't realize he/she isn't doing
any actual work? That's what MS reps in the forums do: make noise,
don't address the issue, keep you busy, hope you don't realize they
haven't a clue how to actually troubleshoot the issue.

The only help you ever got in Microsoft's forums was from other users;
that is, you rely on peer support there, not Microsoft pseudo-support.
This isn't new. Been that way since the dawn of their web-based forums.
That those useless Microsoft reps that puke out fake advice are leaving
is probably a good thing: the user isn't misled into thinking they
received help and the thread doesn't look busy, so someone else that
could help is also not misled into thinking help was given. Those MS
reps are more trolls (experts in subterfuge to hide their ineptitude)
than in providing help.

Note: MVPs there are /*not*/ Microsoft employees.

Of course, Microsoft is going even further. Hell, why stop with a
threat of non-participation when you can be an even bigger asshole just
because you can. "Some forums will be locked, preventing users from
helping each other as well." You won't even be able to get peer support
there. Microsoft abandoned Usenet after a few years because they didn't
control Usenet (using the excuse that a later version of their Windows
product ceased including an NNTP server). They're doing the same in
their web-based forums: disable users giving useful help to other users
and instead having their uneducated and inexperienced rep puke out
canned responses that obviously do not target the issue.

Microsoft's choices have no effect here, though.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-11 15:57:34 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.

Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Ant
2018-06-11 21:26:18 UTC
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Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.
Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
--
Quote of the Week: "I never kill insects. If I see ants or spiders in
the room, I pick them up and take them outside. Karma is everything."
--Holly Valance
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
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Ron C
2018-06-12 00:47:00 UTC
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Post by Ant
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.
Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--
Paul
2018-06-12 01:20:01 UTC
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Post by Ron C
Post by Ant
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.
Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
There were people in the newsgroups, who actually used to "pursue"
such an MVP title, like it was an "IT Cert". It used to
"look good on your business card". Not everyone had a pecuniary interest,
and gave freely of their time without expectation of anything, but a few
were playing the angles. And vice-versa, there would be people in
the user community "sniping" at them. Some particular MVPs
had a "skill" for getting under the skin of the people
asking questions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Most_Valuable_Professional

There was a little of everything.

At the current time, the awards system focuses on "evangelism",
rather than "helping people". This means that partners or
"bloggers" stand to be rewarded as much as "question answerers".
And it also means that a generation of former MVPs were swept out
the door, to make room for a different kind of person entirely.

While Microsoft thinks this will generate a "Guy Kawasaki"
or a Bruce Tognazzini ("Tog on Design"), I don't think
anyone really notable will come out of the Microsoft system.
It's the era that's gone (the chance to make a difference),
not the people. About all an evangelist can be today
is a "sales person", a poofed-up suit with a sports car
and set of golf clubs. And that reflects the maturity
of the business. It's no longer "two guys in a garage
building something".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_evangelist

Paul
VanguardLH
2018-06-12 04:46:23 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Ron C
Post by Ant
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.
Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
There were people in the newsgroups, who actually used to "pursue"
such an MVP title, like it was an "IT Cert". It used to
"look good on your business card". Not everyone had a pecuniary interest,
and gave freely of their time without expectation of anything, but a few
were playing the angles. And vice-versa, there would be people in
the user community "sniping" at them. Some particular MVPs
had a "skill" for getting under the skin of the people
asking questions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Most_Valuable_Professional
There was a little of everything.
At the current time, the awards system focuses on "evangelism",
rather than "helping people". This means that partners or
"bloggers" stand to be rewarded as much as "question answerers".
And it also means that a generation of former MVPs were swept out
the door, to make room for a different kind of person entirely.
While Microsoft thinks this will generate a "Guy Kawasaki"
or a Bruce Tognazzini ("Tog on Design"), I don't think
anyone really notable will come out of the Microsoft system.
It's the era that's gone (the chance to make a difference),
not the people. About all an evangelist can be today
is a "sales person", a poofed-up suit with a sports car
and set of golf clubs. And that reflects the maturity
of the business. It's no longer "two guys in a garage
building something".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_evangelist
Those types of MVPs belong over in the prosyletizing newsgroups (aka the
*.advocacy newsgroups full of sanctimonious noisemakers stroking their
wee weenies in public).
Ron C
2018-06-12 05:40:39 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Paul
Post by Ron C
Post by Ant
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.
Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
There were people in the newsgroups, who actually used to "pursue"
such an MVP title, like it was an "IT Cert". It used to
"look good on your business card". Not everyone had a pecuniary interest,
and gave freely of their time without expectation of anything, but a few
were playing the angles. And vice-versa, there would be people in
the user community "sniping" at them. Some particular MVPs
had a "skill" for getting under the skin of the people
asking questions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Most_Valuable_Professional
There was a little of everything.
At the current time, the awards system focuses on "evangelism",
rather than "helping people". This means that partners or
"bloggers" stand to be rewarded as much as "question answerers".
And it also means that a generation of former MVPs were swept out
the door, to make room for a different kind of person entirely.
While Microsoft thinks this will generate a "Guy Kawasaki"
or a Bruce Tognazzini ("Tog on Design"), I don't think
anyone really notable will come out of the Microsoft system.
It's the era that's gone (the chance to make a difference),
not the people. About all an evangelist can be today
is a "sales person", a poofed-up suit with a sports car
and set of golf clubs. And that reflects the maturity
of the business. It's no longer "two guys in a garage
building something".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_evangelist
Those types of MVPs belong over in the prosyletizing newsgroups (aka the
*.advocacy newsgroups full of sanctimonious noisemakers stroking their
wee weenies in public).
For what it's worth, my question was somewhat cynical and sarcastic.
I lost track of the architecture way back in DOS days. The last time I
had a clue about assembly language dates back to 8088. For the
most part I used PCs as tools for data analysis or lab control, mostly
from higher level languages. Every now and then I'd have to delve deeper
to get equipment to work right.
~~
Thanks for the history lessons and perspective.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--
VanguardLH
2018-06-12 04:38:42 UTC
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Post by Ron C
Post by Ant
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
The microsoft.public.* newsgroups still exist. It was the private
(microsoft.private.*) newsgroups that disappeared from Usenet but those
private newsgroups were carried only on Microsoft's NNTP server (they
were not peered and required registration and loggin in).
Post by Ron C
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
[Microsoft] MVP = Most Valuable Professional

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Most_Valuable_Professional

There were outsiders from Microsoft that had proven over time to help
the community (in Usenet or the web-based forums). I remember one bozo
(don't remember his nym) who thought he could puke out hundreds of
worthless posts thinking that would earn him an MVP award not realizing
that you need to get nominated and there is a review process. I think
it was PC Butts who kept trying to pretend he was an MVP and even tried
to register a domain that misled he was an MVP (which the MVPs reported
to the registrar that got his domain registration revoked).

Awhile ago, an MVP (forget who) offered to nominate me for MVP status.
I politely refused. I didn't want some umbrella shadowing my content
because, gee, I needed to be a polite and neutered MS helper. I'd
rather be myself which can range to behavior that would not reflect well
upon an MVP. No leashes on me, please.

https://mvp.microsoft.com/en-us/Nomination/nominate-an-mvp
(I'm unaware that anyone attempting self-nomination gets the award.
"Oh, look at me, please make me special.")

As I recall, MVP status must be renewed each year. Some ex-MVPs
continued to claim MVP status long after they were no longer an MVP.
They lied by continuing to add "MVP" to their moniker for a long expired
MVP status. This is like paying for your annual car tabs but then
trying to proffer them as your current tabs many years later. They keep
using a title they no longer deserve. If MVP status is not renewed, the
title is worthless since it is a measure of how you continue to assist
the community, not how well you sit on your hands thereafter.

When Microsoft abandoned Usenet, almost all MVPs moved over to Microsoft
web-based forums because that's where all the boobs moved to or the only
place they could figure out how to use (they knew how to use a web
browser but configuring an account in an NNTP account was far beyond
their eptitude). Instead of helping both places, they decided to go
where the higher percentage of uber-boobs resided, similar to how
malware authors attack an OS with the highest marketshare to enlarge the
effect of their endeavors.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-12 07:05:16 UTC
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In message <***@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <***@nguard.LH>
writes:
[]
Post by VanguardLH
As I recall, MVP status must be renewed each year. Some ex-MVPs
continued to claim MVP status long after they were no longer an MVP.
They lied by continuing to add "MVP" to their moniker for a long expired
MVP status. This is like paying for your annual car tabs but then
trying to proffer them as your current tabs many years later. They keep
using a title they no longer deserve. If MVP status is not renewed, the
title is worthless since it is a measure of how you continue to assist
the community, not how well you sit on your hands thereafter.
Actually, "MVP (2007)", or similar, might actually be _preferable_ to
some readers (including me, except I'm not sure what date[s] I'd want):
given the suspicion that those _currently_ qualifying (?) do so by
evangelism or other practices rather than actually producing useful
help, I might prefer "someone who was awarded/whatever MVP status in
200x, when it actually meant something" to "someone qualifying for MVP
status as currently defined".
Post by VanguardLH
When Microsoft abandoned Usenet, almost all MVPs moved over to Microsoft
web-based forums because that's where all the boobs moved to or the only
place they could figure out how to use (they knew how to use a web
browser but configuring an account in an NNTP account was far beyond
their eptitude). Instead of helping both places, they decided to go
(I like "eptitude": I've passed it on for carding as a usage example!)
Post by VanguardLH
where the higher percentage of uber-boobs resided, similar to how
malware authors attack an OS with the highest marketshare to enlarge the
effect of their endeavors.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"When the people fear the government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
Tim Slattery
2018-06-12 14:47:14 UTC
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Post by Ron C
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional. We were *not* MS employees,
and we were *not* recognized for promoting MS products. We were simply
newsgroup participants who were recognized by MS for the frequency and
quality of our posts. We were recognized for helping other newsgroup
users.

We were a disparate group, some were more likely to recommend MS
products, some less. We were all trying to figure out how to use them
and to transmit that knowledge to others.
--
Tim Slattery
tim <at> risingdove <dot> com
Ken Blake
2018-06-12 17:10:28 UTC
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Post by Tim Slattery
Post by Ron C
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional.
Still does <g>
Post by Tim Slattery
We were *not* MS employees,
And still aren't. <g> As a matter of fact, it's against Microsoft's
rules for a Microsoft employee to be an MVP.
Post by Tim Slattery
and we were *not* recognized for promoting MS products. We were simply
newsgroup participants who were recognized by MS for the frequency and
quality of our posts. We were recognized for helping other newsgroup
users.
We were a disparate group, some were more likely to recommend MS
products, some less.
That's for sure. They were always some (and still are) those who
thought, or at least said, that any Microsoft product under discussion
was the best of its type. They were simply being dishonest, as far as
I'm concerned. Some Microsoft products are the best of their type;
others are far from it.
Post by Tim Slattery
We were all trying to figure out how to use them
and to transmit that knowledge to others.
Yes, I completely agree.

I'll add to what Tim says (I was an MVP for 13 years and am now an
Insider MVP. I'm active both in the Microsoft forums and here in the
newsgroups. I'm sorry the Microsoft newsgroups gone; although the
web-based forums are possibly better for those looking for help, as
far as I'm concerned, they are much worse for those of us trying to
help others, and make us considerably less effective. It was best when
there were both forums and newsgroups, and a message posted to either
could be read on both; that better met the needs of both groups: those
asking for help and those giving help.

I recommend Microsoft products that I like and recommend *against*
Microsoft products I dislike. As a couple of examples, I like
WordPerfect much better than Word, and I think Edge is the worst
browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.

And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"

I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.

And as far as I know they are not really Microsoft employees. They
are contractors. Microsoft should do a much better job of selecting
these contractors, and be sure that regardless of where they live,
they understand English very well, and can write their answers in
English clearly. And Microsoft should also be very sure they know
their subject material very well. Or better yet, they could get rid of
those contractors entirely. They aren't needed; the volunteers--MVPs
and others--do a great job.

I've told several Microsoft employees what's wrong with their
contractors, but although they were sympathetic to my views, it had no
effect.

I've met many real Microsoft employees. There's an enormous difference
between them and those forum contractors. Microsoft does a much better
job of hiring real employees. And by the way, many of those real
employees also come from foreign countries, including India.

And to return to the subject--MVPs: I've met many of them, and many
also come from foreign countries including India. Most of them speak
and write excellent English and know their subject material very well.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-12 17:57:50 UTC
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[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tim Slattery
MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
I'm concerned. Some Microsoft products are the best of their type;
others are far from it.
Care to mention a few more (than the two below) that you think are? I
agree, though I can't think of specific examples at the moment.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
help others, and make us considerably less effective. It was best when
there were both forums and newsgroups, and a message posted to either
could be read on both; that better met the needs of both groups: those
asking for help and those giving help.
(Are you able to make such a comment "over there", or would it be
"moderated" out of existence?)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.
Having used it in such a situation, I agree that Outlook is very good
for use in a large corporate environment - as mail client, and also for
its other organisational features. (I can't comment on whether it's
better than any alternative, not having used any such _in such an
environment_.) As a _private_ email client, I think it's a bit complex
to set up for little (I can't think of any) visible benefit, but then
it's not aimed at that. I also agree Excel is very good, though I
haven't tried any of the alternatives. It (or rather Office) _is_ rather
expensive, and I suspect - for anyone who has not acquired it as some
sort of employee discount or _possibly_ student discount - it _may_ not
be worth the cost, for _many_ spreadsheets, compared to the free ones,
even if it _is_ superior.
Post by Ken Blake
And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"
I haven't used the MS forums as such, but when googling for example
specific error codes or symptoms, I have seen responses on the MS
website that do seem to be producing a stock reply to a question that is
not the one being asked. They often involve multi-step procedures which
seem - even if not intended as such - like the "tie up the questioner
for a while, and at least s/he won't come back for a bit", rather like
the "reboot your machine" beloved of helpdesks.
Post by Ken Blake
I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.
Very well put.
Post by Ken Blake
And as far as I know they are not really Microsoft employees. They
are contractors. Microsoft should do a much better job of selecting
these contractors, and be sure that regardless of where they live,
they understand English very well, and can write their answers in
English clearly. And Microsoft should also be very sure they know
Or at least provide a working feedback mechanism, that allows readers'
feedback, if sufficiently negative, to not only result in the removal of
that contractor, but also the removal of that answer.
Post by Ken Blake
their subject material very well. Or better yet, they could get rid of
those contractors entirely. They aren't needed; the volunteers--MVPs
and others--do a great job.
I've told several Microsoft employees what's wrong with their
contractors, but although they were sympathetic to my views, it had no
effect.
You're probably not reaching anyone with sufficient authority (such
people not usually be willing to interface).
Post by Ken Blake
I've met many real Microsoft employees. There's an enormous difference
between them and those forum contractors. Microsoft does a much better
job of hiring real employees. And by the way, many of those real
employees also come from foreign countries, including India.
And to return to the subject--MVPs: I've met many of them, and many
also come from foreign countries including India. Most of them speak
and write excellent English and know their subject material very well.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

1974: not one member of the British jury gave the Swedish band a single point.
Ken Blake
2018-06-12 19:57:28 UTC
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On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 18:57:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tim Slattery
MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional.
[]
Post by Ken Blake
I'm concerned. Some Microsoft products are the best of their type;
others are far from it.
Care to mention a few more (than the two below) that you think are? I
agree, though I can't think of specific examples at the moment.
Streets and Trips, although it's pretty much no longer needed, since
there are web sites that do the same thing even better.

Expression Web, although I have created a web site in quite a while,
so I can't be sure how it fares against the competition these days.

The original Solitaire. That may sound like a silly example, but
remember that its purpose was to teach people how to use the mouse,
and it did that very well.

There are probably others, but that's all that comes to mind.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
help others, and make us considerably less effective. It was best when
there were both forums and newsgroups, and a message posted to either
could be read on both; that better met the needs of both groups: those
asking for help and those giving help.
(Are you able to make such a comment "over there", or would it be
"moderated" out of existence?)
By "over there," do you mean on the forum? The only forums I go to are
those for Windows questions, so I've never made a comment like that on
a forum (where it would be inappropriate), but I've said it to
Microsoft employees

But I've said other negative things on the forums about what Microsoft
does, when I felt some such a comment was appropriate. Moderation
never deleted anything I've posted, as far as I know.

I've always felt that I'm going to be me, and say what I think. If
Microsoft doesn't like it, that's fine. They can remove my MVP status,
remove me from the forum, or do whatever they want.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.
Having used it in such a situation, I agree that Outlook is very good
for use in a large corporate environment - as mail client, and also for
its other organisational features. (I can't comment on whether it's
better than any alternative, not having used any such _in such an
environment_.) As a _private_ email client, I think it's a bit complex
to set up for little (I can't think of any) visible benefit, but then
it's not aimed at that.
One of the things I like best about Outlook is that the single entry
for a person contains e-mail address, physical address, phone number,
birthday, etc. It's not necessary to have multiple records for a
single person in multiple programs.

I haven't tried all e-mail clients, but over the years, I've tried
about half a dozen. I continue to like Outlook the best and come back
to it.

I don't find it too complex, but I can imagine others might.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I also agree Excel is very good, though I
haven't tried any of the alternatives.
The only other one I've tried is Quattro Pro, and I greatly prefer
Excel.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It (or rather Office) _is_ rather
expensive, and I suspect - for anyone who has not acquired it as some
sort of employee discount or _possibly_ student discount - it _may_ not
be worth the cost, for _many_ spreadsheets, compared to the free ones,
even if it _is_ superior.
Very true. Something like LibreOffice or OpenOffice is fine for many
people.

An aside: I was once at a Microsoft MVP meeting where Steve Ballmer
addressed the several thousand of us, telling us that Bing was just
being released, and that it was much better than Google. He asked us
to use Bing instead of Google, at least for a few months, so we could
see how much better it was.

I did as he asked, and used Bing for 2-3 months, then went back to
Google, which I thought, and still think, was much the better search
engine.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"
I haven't used the MS forums as such, but when googling for example
specific error codes or symptoms, I have seen responses on the MS
website that do seem to be producing a stock reply to a question that is
not the one being asked.
Yep. Sometimes because, with their poor English they didn't understand
the question, and sometimes just out of ignorance.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
They often involve multi-step procedures which
seem - even if not intended as such - like the "tie up the questioner
for a while, and at least s/he won't come back for a bit", rather like
the "reboot your machine" beloved of helpdesks.
Yes. Or worse, the "reformat and reinstall" of help desks. That almost
always works.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.
Very well put.
Thanks very much.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
And as far as I know they are not really Microsoft employees. They
are contractors. Microsoft should do a much better job of selecting
these contractors, and be sure that regardless of where they live,
they understand English very well, and can write their answers in
English clearly. And Microsoft should also be very sure they know
Or at least provide a working feedback mechanism, that allows readers'
feedback, if sufficiently negative, to not only result in the removal of
that contractor, but also the removal of that answer.
That might be better than nothing, but as far as I'm concerned, it
would be much better to avoid the problem in the first place, rather
than to fix it.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
their subject material very well. Or better yet, they could get rid of
those contractors entirely. They aren't needed; the volunteers--MVPs
and others--do a great job.
I've told several Microsoft employees what's wrong with their
contractors, but although they were sympathetic to my views, it had no
effect.
You're probably not reaching anyone with sufficient authority (such
people not usually be willing to interface).
Yes, I know. I only spoke to those people I was able to, and asked
them to pass on my comments to higher-ups. I don't know whether they
did or not, but I'm sure that even if I spoke to a higher-up myself,
it wouldn't matter. Microsoft is going to do it its own way.

And there's a lot more wrong with the forums than just the Microsoft
contractors. There's a lot that could be done to make them much
better.

It's just a dream of course, but if I were Microsoft CEO, there would
be lots of changes, and not just to the forums.

Ken
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
I've met many real Microsoft employees. There's an enormous difference
between them and those forum contractors. Microsoft does a much better
job of hiring real employees. And by the way, many of those real
employees also come from foreign countries, including India.
And to return to the subject--MVPs: I've met many of them, and many
also come from foreign countries including India. Most of them speak
and write excellent English and know their subject material very well.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-13 15:36:49 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Blake
browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.
Having used it in such a situation, I agree that Outlook is very good
for use in a large corporate environment - as mail client, and also for
its other organisational features. (I can't comment on whether it's
better than any alternative, not having used any such _in such an
environment_.) As a _private_ email client, I think it's a bit complex
to set up for little (I can't think of any) visible benefit, but then
it's not aimed at that. I also agree Excel is very good, though I
haven't tried any of the alternatives. It (or rather Office) _is_ rather
expensive, and I suspect - for anyone who has not acquired it as some
sort of employee discount or _possibly_ student discount - it _may_ not
be worth the cost, for _many_ spreadsheets, compared to the free ones,
even if it _is_ superior.
I use Open Office - because a) it is not Microsoft, B) free. Yes,
I did have to do a lot of fiddling with things to get my spreadsheets
at from home work at school, but ...

As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Steve Hayes
2018-06-14 01:38:57 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-14 03:19:33 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
I am still using Eudora. Might have to switch to Outlook for
"work" related reasons.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Steve Hayes
2018-06-14 03:36:41 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 20:19:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
I am still using Eudora. Might have to switch to Outlook for
"work" related reasons.
Perhaps you could use different readers for "work" and private e-mail?
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-14 17:06:43 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 20:19:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
I am still using Eudora. Might have to switch to Outlook for
"work" related reasons.
Perhaps you could use different readers for "work" and private e-mail?
Yeah, trying that.

Sometimes, I have to learn a different program than the one I use,
so that I can be Tech Support.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Ken Blake
2018-06-14 14:48:01 UTC
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 03:38:57 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
Two points:

1. I used to use Pegasus, but I moved to Outlook because I like it
better.

2. What I prefer or what Steve Hayes prefers should be ignored. As
always, what I recommend is trying the various alternatives and
choosing what *you* like best.
Steve Hayes
2018-06-15 05:30:19 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 03:38:57 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
1. I used to use Pegasus, but I moved to Outlook because I like it
better.
2. What I prefer or what Steve Hayes prefers should be ignored. As
always, what I recommend is trying the various alternatives and
choosing what *you* like best.
That's what I recommended. I did say "try".
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
Mayayana
2018-06-15 13:14:40 UTC
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"Steve Hayes" <***@telkomsa.net> wrote

| >2. What I prefer or what Steve Hayes prefers should be ignored. As
| >always, what I recommend is trying the various alternatives and
| >choosing what *you* like best.
|
| That's what I recommended. I did say "try".
|

Those are actually my favorite posts. It can
be very helpful to know what other people find
useful. Though it would be more helpful if you
detailed why you like it.

Someone recommended Claws the other day,
describing it as a substitute for OE. As an OE user
who's loathe to go through the hassle of converting
to TBird, with it's various rough edges, I decided
to give that a try.... One of these days.

I think Ken Blake is a person of strong opinions
who means well. So he can't help asserting that
what he thinks is the right way to think, but
then he dutifully adds a disclaimer: "You'd have
to be a nut to order the tofu burger, but, hey, I
respect your right to choose for yourself."
Steve Hayes
2018-06-16 05:37:05 UTC
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 09:14:40 -0400, "Mayayana"
Post by Mayayana
| >2. What I prefer or what Steve Hayes prefers should be ignored. As
| >always, what I recommend is trying the various alternatives and
| >choosing what *you* like best.
|
| That's what I recommended. I did say "try".
|
Those are actually my favorite posts. It can
be very helpful to know what other people find
useful. Though it would be more helpful if you
detailed why you like it.
One of the reasons that I recommend that people try Pegasus is that
it's free, so that if you try it and don't like it you've lost
nothing.

One of the reasons I like it is that it does everything I need. It
does one thing and does it well -- that's e-mail.

It doesn't work too well if you like sending or receiving e-mails with
everything in 18 point Comic Sans with lots of emoticons and screech
makrks, but it works pretty well with plain text and does proper reply
quoting.

I've been using it for a long time, and have quite a lot of mail
archives over the last 20 years. If I switched readers now it would
make it much more of a hassle to refer to earlier messages.
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
Mayayana
2018-06-16 13:14:17 UTC
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"Steve Hayes" <***@telkomsa.net> wrote

| One of the reasons that I recommend that people try Pegasus is that
| it's free, so that if you try it and don't like it you've lost
| nothing.
|
| One of the reasons I like it is that it does everything I need. It
| does one thing and does it well -- that's e-mail.
|

I had some time this week and ended up trying both
Pegasus and Claws. I don't think they're for me. Neither
would import from OE. Neither seems to handle
newsgroups. At least not that I could figure out. Neither
seemed to have a clear way to completely disable HTML
email.
I guess I'm still planning to move to TBird.... someday.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-16 14:20:28 UTC
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Mayayana <***@invalid.nospam> wrote:
[...]
Post by Mayayana
I guess I'm still planning to move to TBird.... someday.
If you ever do, then I advise to *first* clean up your (OE) folder
structure in such a way, that the tree of mail folders is structured the
exact same way as the corresponding (Windows) files.

Reason: The Thunderbird ImportExportTools Add-on is not aware of OE's
mail folder structure, as it is defined in (IIRC) the folders.dbx file.
So ImportExportTools uses the (Windows) *file* tree to decide what to
put where with which name, instead of the OE *mail folder* tree.

I.e. if you don't pre-clean/pre-check you might/will end up with a
totally messed up TB mail folder tree, both structure-wise and name-wise
(unless 'Singapore A c67' is an airline :-)).

There are quite a lot of other TB quirks for the OE/WM/WLM user to
overcome, but this is the most important one.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-16 17:18:43 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| One of the reasons that I recommend that people try Pegasus is that
| it's free, so that if you try it and don't like it you've lost
| nothing.
|
| One of the reasons I like it is that it does everything I need. It
| does one thing and does it well -- that's e-mail.
|
I had some time this week and ended up trying both
Pegasus and Claws. I don't think they're for me. Neither
would import from OE. Neither seems to handle
newsgroups.
I've never been a fan of using one programs for newsgroups & email
(and everything else). Perhaps because I started with Email over
here, rn over there, and the supposed advantages of the new Email All
In One Program weren't visible to me.
OTOH, maybe if I'd shifted twenty years ago, I'd only have one
program to complain about.

As for newsreaders, I'm sticking with Forte Agent, even though it
is broken and no longer handles temporary filters. (There is a fix,
it is a hack, but I'd have to update for the latest version. Which I
might do, someday, when I'm feeling flush.)

Although some days,. I'm included to just ignore all social media
- email, newsgroups, web sites. Turning into a grumpy old man in my
old age.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Ken Blake
2018-06-16 17:23:14 UTC
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 10:18:43 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
I've never been a fan of using one programs for newsgroups & email
(and everything else).
Nor I. I use Agent for newsgroups and Outlook for e-mail. I want what
I consider to be the best in each category, and just because some
program is best as an e-mail client doesn't mean it's also best as a
newsreader (and vice-versa).
Post by pyotr filipivich
Perhaps because I started with Email over
here, rn over there, and the supposed advantages of the new Email All
In One Program weren't visible to me.
But I didn't. I started with one program, Outlook Express, for both.
But that didn't last long.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-17 15:53:24 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 10:18:43 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
I've never been a fan of using one programs for newsgroups & email
(and everything else).
Nor I. I use Agent for newsgroups and Outlook for e-mail. I want what
I consider to be the best in each category, and just because some
program is best as an e-mail client doesn't mean it's also best as a
newsreader (and vice-versa).
Post by pyotr filipivich
Perhaps because I started with Email over
here, rn over there, and the supposed advantages of the new Email All
In One Program weren't visible to me.
But I didn't. I started with one program, Outlook Express, for both.
But that didn't last long.
"Back in my day" (Back in my day, "Color? We had color - amber or
green! Take your pick!" And we had to hand dial the connections. And
dirt was two dollars a pound when you could find it.) - I don't even
remember if Outlook was even around. I was using Unix shells over
dial up, so the options were mail and rn.
We did have windows, but it was an option, and not something which
booted up.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-17 16:03:46 UTC
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Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Ken Blake
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 10:18:43 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
I've never been a fan of using one programs for newsgroups & email
(and everything else).
Nor I. I use Agent for newsgroups and Outlook for e-mail. I want what
I consider to be the best in each category, and just because some
program is best as an e-mail client doesn't mean it's also best as a
newsreader (and vice-versa).
Post by pyotr filipivich
Perhaps because I started with Email over
here, rn over there, and the supposed advantages of the new Email All
In One Program weren't visible to me.
But I didn't. I started with one program, Outlook Express, for both.
But that didn't last long.
"Back in my day" (Back in my day, "Color? We had color - amber or
green! Take your pick!" And we had to hand dial the connections. And
dirt was two dollars a pound when you could find it.) - I don't even
remember if Outlook was even around. I was using Unix shells over
dial up, so the options were mail and rn.
We did have windows, but it was an option, and not something which
booted up.
Unix!? 'Back in my day', I already used email [1] before Unix or even
the term 'email' existed!

Amber or green!? What's wrong with teletypes!? On-line!? What's wrong
with paper-tape!? 'dial the connections'!? What's wrong with worldwide
leased lines!?

Who's next to p*ss even farther!? :-)

[1] Very early 70s.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-17 22:38:30 UTC
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Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Ken Blake
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 10:18:43 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
I've never been a fan of using one programs for newsgroups & email
(and everything else).
Nor I. I use Agent for newsgroups and Outlook for e-mail. I want what
I consider to be the best in each category, and just because some
program is best as an e-mail client doesn't mean it's also best as a
newsreader (and vice-versa).
Post by pyotr filipivich
Perhaps because I started with Email over
here, rn over there, and the supposed advantages of the new Email All
In One Program weren't visible to me.
But I didn't. I started with one program, Outlook Express, for both.
But that didn't last long.
"Back in my day" (Back in my day, "Color? We had color - amber or
green! Take your pick!" And we had to hand dial the connections. And
dirt was two dollars a pound when you could find it.) - I don't even
remember if Outlook was even around. I was using Unix shells over
dial up, so the options were mail and rn.
We did have windows, but it was an option, and not something which
booted up.
Unix!? 'Back in my day', I already used email [1] before Unix or even
the term 'email' existed!
And you had to stack the electrons by hand.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Amber or green!? What's wrong with teletypes!? On-line!? What's wrong
with paper-tape!? 'dial the connections'!? What's wrong with worldwide
leased lines!?
Who's next to p*ss even farther!? :-)
Bang addresses, and "You had transformers to step down the power?
Luxury! We used to have to have gran bite the wires in her teeth."

Ah, the good old days, they was rotten.
Post by Frank Slootweg
[1] Very early 70s.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-18 15:08:06 UTC
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pyotr filipivich <***@mindspring.com> wrote:
[...]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Bang addresses, and "You had transformers to step down the power?
Luxury! We used to have to have gran bite the wires in her teeth."
Ah, the good old days, they was rotten.
Yup, bang addresses:

...!hplabs!mcvax!hpuamsa![frank!root!news]
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-18 15:22:11 UTC
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Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Bang addresses, and "You had transformers to step down the power?
Luxury! We used to have to have gran bite the wires in her teeth."
Ah, the good old days, they was rotten.
...!hplabs!mcvax!hpuamsa![frank!root!news]
Oops, make that:

...!hplabs!mcvax!hpuamsa![frank|root|news]
Mayayana
2018-06-16 19:29:07 UTC
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"pyotr filipivich" <***@mindspring.com> wrote

|
| I've never been a fan of using one programs for newsgroups & email
| (and everything else). Perhaps because I started with Email over
| here, rn over there, and the supposed advantages of the new Email All
| In One Program weren't visible to me.
| OTOH, maybe if I'd shifted twenty years ago, I'd only have one
| program to complain about.
|

I've always used OE. Some people like
all sorts of formatting and colorcoding for
newsgroups. I guess that's a leftover
habit from the days before threadview.

I prefer just plain text, with a thread view
of the discussion. OE does that just fine.
It also handles filters. And it's easy to back up.

There are only two reasons I consider moving
from OE.

1) I might move from XP someday. :)
2) It doesn't handle current encryption methods.

For friends I always set up TBird. But I don't
know anyone who uses newsgroups. I try to
encourage them, but people just don't get it.
Which seems ironic to me. As I recall, chat groups
on AOL were one of the first attractions of getting
an ISP and being online.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-16 14:02:07 UTC
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Steve Hayes <***@telkomsa.net> wrote:
[...]

[About Pegasus:]
Post by Steve Hayes
I've been using it for a long time, and have quite a lot of mail
archives over the last 20 years. If I switched readers now it would
make it much more of a hassle to refer to earlier messages.
I assume that Pegasus either uses mbox format for its mail folders or
can export to mbox format. If so, most decent 'mailers' (MUAs) can use
or import mbox format, so - in that regard - switching shouldn't be a
problem.
Nil
2018-06-16 17:02:39 UTC
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Post by Frank Slootweg
I assume that Pegasus either uses mbox format for its mail folders
or can export to mbox format. If so, most decent 'mailers' (MUAs)
can use or import mbox format, so - in that regard - switching
shouldn't be a problem.
Pegasus does use mbox format, but the problem is that that format is
poorly defined and mbox files can rarely be moved as is between
applications. Specifically, I wasn't able to use Pegasus folders
directly in Thunderbird. Most messages imported OK but some were
corrupted.

In my experience, the best way to move mail between mail programs is
by using an IMAP server as an intermediary.
pyotr filipivich
2018-06-16 17:18:43 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 09:14:40 -0400, "Mayayana"
Post by Mayayana
| >2. What I prefer or what Steve Hayes prefers should be ignored. As
| >always, what I recommend is trying the various alternatives and
| >choosing what *you* like best.
|
| That's what I recommended. I did say "try".
|
Those are actually my favorite posts. It can
be very helpful to know what other people find
useful. Though it would be more helpful if you
detailed why you like it.
One of the reasons that I recommend that people try Pegasus is that
it's free, so that if you try it and don't like it you've lost
nothing.
One of the reasons I like it is that it does everything I need. It
does one thing and does it well -- that's e-mail.
It doesn't work too well if you like sending or receiving e-mails with
everything in 18 point Comic Sans with lots of emoticons and screech
makrks, but it works pretty well with plain text and does proper reply
quoting.
I've been using it for a long time, and have quite a lot of mail
archives over the last 20 years. If I switched readers now it would
make it much more of a hassle to refer to earlier messages.
That's the Big Issue: archived messages.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
Char Jackson
2018-06-17 05:12:22 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
One of the reasons that I recommend that people try Pegasus is that
it's free, so that if you try it and don't like it you've lost
nothing.
One of the reasons I like it is that it does everything I need. It
does one thing and does it well -- that's e-mail.
It doesn't work too well if you like sending or receiving e-mails with
everything in 18 point Comic Sans with lots of emoticons and screech
makrks, but it works pretty well with plain text and does proper reply
quoting.
Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
--
Char Jackson
Mayayana
2018-06-17 12:39:14 UTC
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"Char Jackson" <***@none.invalid> wrote

| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
|

And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)

Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.

There's only one case I currently deal with where
email doesn't work in plain text. It's from an
assisted living center. The director is not experienced
with computers and usually sends his emails as
JPG files. He doesn't write anything. He just pastes
in a JPG. But even then it's not a problem for me.
I get the JPG as an attachment.

If you look at the actual code of your emails, or
try setting a plain text view, I think you'll find that
most, perhaps all, contain an undecorated version
of what you normally see.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-17 14:47:34 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)
Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.
There's another reason for you not to switch from OE to Thunderbird,
unless you have to.

IIRC, in OE it's easy to configure OE in such a way that:

- You send in text/plain by default.

- For received email:

- It will render/show the text/plain part of a multipart/alternative
message. and you have the per-message option of rendering the
text/html part.

- It will render/show only the text of a text/html-only message.

- For replying to received email:

- You can use the format of the received message, i.e. reply in text
to a text-only message and in html if the message is (part) html.

Such a configuration is - AFAIK/AFAICT - not possible in Thunderbird.

TB will always render html and will use *your* default for replies,
not the format of the received message.

To add insult to injury, you can not see the Message Source without
opening - and hence rendering - the message. The only hack around this
is to 'Save As...' the message and then inspect it *outside* TB, i.e.
with Notepad or similar.

Did I put you off TB enough already!? :-)
Mayayana
2018-06-17 14:56:24 UTC
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"Frank Slootweg" <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| TB will always render html and will use *your* default for replies,
| not the format of the received message.
|
Thanks. I hadn't noticed that. I did notice
that at least it won't retrieve remote images.

| To add insult to injury, you can not see the Message Source without
| opening - and hence rendering - the message. The only hack around this
| is to 'Save As...' the message and then inspect it *outside* TB, i.e.
| with Notepad or similar.
|
I did notice that. I have to drag an email out onto the
desktop to see the source.

| Did I put you off TB enough already!? :-)

Well, I was already put off. The funky way it
imports OE folders.... the mixed up storage of
server settings... lots of little things that don't
work quite right. But it's still the best option
I've found.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-17 15:37:26 UTC
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[...]
Post by Mayayana
| Did I put you off TB enough already!? :-)
Well, I was already put off. The funky way it
imports OE folders.... the mixed up storage of
server settings... lots of little things that don't
work quite right. But it's still the best option
I've found.
Indeed, also IMO it's the 'best' option. IOW: 'The best in a set of
flat tyres.'
Char Jackson
2018-06-17 15:03:30 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
And you like it that way?
Absolutely.
--
Char Jackson
Wolf K
2018-06-17 15:03:09 UTC
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Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)
Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.
There's another reason for you not to switch from OE to Thunderbird,
unless you have to.
- You send in text/plain by default.
[snip the alleged OE advantages]

Just the same in Tbird.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and
what is right to do. Potter Stewart
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-17 15:37:26 UTC
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Post by Wolf K
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)
Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.
There's another reason for you not to switch from OE to Thunderbird,
unless you have to.
- You send in text/plain by default.
[snip the alleged OE advantages]
Just the same in Tbird.
Sorry, what do you mean?

Yes, TB can send in text/plain by default, but my point is you can't
do that *and* the other listed points, i.e. the points you snipped (with
'[snip the alleged OE advantages]').

So in TB, you've to constantly reconfigure settings, while in OE you
can use one constant sane/safe configuration.

FYI, I've been using OE/WM ever since OE came out. Three years ago, I
had to switch to TB (for email), because 8.1 doesn't have WM (and WLM is
broken by_design/beyond_repair).
Wolf K
2018-06-17 19:14:23 UTC
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Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Wolf K
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)
Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.
There's another reason for you not to switch from OE to Thunderbird,
unless you have to.
- You send in text/plain by default.
[snip the alleged OE advantages]
Just the same in Tbird.
Sorry, what do you mean?
Yes, TB can send in text/plain by default, but my point is you can't
do that *and* the other listed points, i.e. the points you snipped (with
'[snip the alleged OE advantages]').
So in TB, you've to constantly reconfigure settings, while in OE you
can use one constant sane/safe configuration.
FYI, I've been using OE/WM ever since OE came out. Three years ago, I
had to switch to TB (for email), because 8.1 doesn't have WM (and WLM is
broken by_design/beyond_repair).
Sorry, I Deleted that post (I tend to delete everything after
reading/responding).

Anyhow, the features you listed are, as I recall them, all available in
Tbird.

Eg, Edit Contact -"Prefers to receive messages formatted as..."

Eg, Account Settings - Composition & Addressing - Compose messages in HTML

Eg, View messages a Plain text, Simple HTML or Original HTML

And so forth.

Anyhow, I don't "constantly reconfigure settings." I've set TB the way
I want it, and that's that. If people prefer HTML, well, they're outta
luck. But they'll still be reading my screeds in whatever default font
they've set. I sometimes toggle from Simple HTML to Original HTML, but
that's quite rare. In my experience, messages from i-devices with
in-line images sometimes require this. Full HTML doesn't add anything to
messages. It's just a waste of bandwidth.

The biggest single problem with email IMO is that with all the fonts and
text encodings available, there will always be funny characters
showing up when the sender's font/encoding settings are incompatible
with the recipient's settings. What we need is something like PDF for
email. You can always send PDF's of course, but PDFs are way too large
IMO. There has to be a way of creating lean'n'mean PDF type docs.

Gruss,
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and
what is right to do. Potter Stewart
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-17 20:41:32 UTC
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[...]
Post by Wolf K
Sorry, I Deleted that post (I tend to delete everything after
reading/responding).
Anyhow, the features you listed are, as I recall them, all available in
Tbird.
Eg, Edit Contact -"Prefers to receive messages formatted as..."
Thanks. I did see a similar thing under Tools -> Options ->
Composition -> General -> Configure text format behaviour -> Send
Options..., but that's about recipient domains, not their email
addresses. Edit Contact is a much more natural place.

I do not need this feature now, but I might need it in the future, so
thanks.
Post by Wolf K
Eg, Account Settings - Composition & Addressing - Compose messages in HTML
Yes, I know about this one. But OE has a 'Reply to messages using the
format in which they were sent' setting. That's a nice feature to have.
Post by Wolf K
Eg, View messages a Plain text, Simple HTML or Original HTML
Thanks! That is one of the features I was (not :-)) looking for. Never
thought of looking for it in that menu, probably because of where it was
in OE/WM/WLM (Options... -> 'Read' tab -> V Read all messages in plain
text).

So, thanks again!
Post by Wolf K
And so forth.
Anyhow, I don't "constantly reconfigure settings." I've set TB the way
I want it, and that's that. If people prefer HTML, well, they're outta
luck. But they'll still be reading my screeds in whatever default font
they've set. I sometimes toggle from Simple HTML to Original HTML, but
that's quite rare. In my experience, messages from i-devices with
in-line images sometimes require this. Full HTML doesn't add anything to
messages. It's just a waste of bandwidth.
The biggest single problem with email IMO is that with all the fonts and
text encodings available, there will always be funny characters
showing up when the sender's font/encoding settings are incompatible
with the recipient's settings. What we need is something like PDF for
email. You can always send PDF's of course, but PDFs are way too large
IMO. There has to be a way of creating lean'n'mean PDF type docs.
Yes, quite annoying.

Similarly we can't even use plain text indentation (with spaces),
tabs, etc., because the recipient probably has some weird proportional
font. So if I sent such a thing to LSWMBO, I must attach it as a .txt
file for her to be able to figure out what the heck it's all about! :-)

Why can't these people just use NetNews message format! :-)
Post by Wolf K
Gruss,
Groetjes en nogmaals bedankt. (Greetings and thanks again.)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-17 17:52:55 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
|
And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)
Or email clients set to automatically download remote images (which is
the default setting for many - all that I've looked at).
Post by Mayayana
Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.
An increasing number of sources, however, don't put the same content in
both parts. Many are just broken; some deliberately mislead - I have one
where the plain text part says "we tried to send you this email in HTML
(pictures and text) but failed; click here to see ...", whereas if I
change to the HTML part it works (a little) better.

I'd say the _majority_, these days, of the HTML parts rely on remote
images.

My fairly old client can _render_ HTML, i. e. interpret _formatting_
tags, and display (some) actually embedded images, but does not fetch
online ones, or - I think - run any _code_; therefore it is _safe_ to
view the HTML part. (I do have it set to read the plain part by default
though.)

[Another point is that most clients these days (all but the one I use, I
think), if they are doing images that are included in the email rather
than link to online ones, can only handle them if the images are all at
the end, with _links_ in the text where they want the image to appear;
if they receive an email or news post with truly _embedded_ images, they
break it, and present any text that comes _after_ the image(s) as if it
were an attachment.]
Post by Mayayana
There's only one case I currently deal with where
email doesn't work in plain text. It's from an
assisted living center. The director is not experienced
with computers and usually sends his emails as
JPG files. He doesn't write anything. He just pastes
in a JPG. But even then it's not a problem for me.
I get the JPG as an attachment.
A plain text message can include images - or rather, obviously, a
non-HTML one can; I mean it doesn't have to be in HTML to include
images.
Post by Mayayana
If you look at the actual code of your emails, or
try setting a plain text view, I think you'll find that
most, perhaps all, contain an undecorated version
of what you normally see.
And most of the longer-standing clients _do_ have an option you can set
as to which version you'd like to see by default. (As well as that
option, mine presents two buttons at the top of any email that contains
both, so I can easily choose the other one.) Some _may_ offer that
choice based on the sender, I don't know (i. e. "I know I always have to
read the HTML version of Fred's emails)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Never make the same mistake twice...there are so many new ones to make!
Mayayana
2018-06-17 20:26:27 UTC
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| Or email clients set to automatically download remote images (which is
| the default setting for many - all that I've looked at).

I'm surprised. TBird doesn't. Nothing should.
Remote images are pretty much by definition
web bugs.

On the other hand, I don't do much commercial
online. No online banking, shopping, etc.

| My fairly old client can _render_ HTML, i. e. interpret _formatting_
| tags, and display (some) actually embedded images, but does not fetch
| online ones, or - I think - run any _code_; therefore it is _safe_ to
| view the HTML part. (I do have it set to read the plain part by default
| though.)
|

Probably. Maybe. That's what they all say before
the bug hits. :) A few years ago there was a JPG
attack that used a bug in gdiplus.dll. It can happen.
Or someone might come up with some kind of encoding
that tricks your email into executing a seeming JPG.
Text is safer and HTML is unnecessary.


| [Another point is that most clients these days (all but the one I use, I
| think), if they are doing images that are included in the email rather
| than link to online ones, can only handle them if the images are all at
| the end, with _links_ in the text where they want the image to appear;
| if they receive an email or news post with truly _embedded_ images, they
| break it, and present any text that comes _after_ the image(s) as if it
| were an attachment.]

What you describe is "truly embedded". Maybe you
mean a data URI with inline base-64 text? There isn't
any reason to need that. The standard is to create
a unique ID that links to a base-64 encoded image
at the end.

| A plain text message can include images - or rather, obviously, a
| non-HTML one can; I mean it doesn't have to be in HTML to include
| images.

It can include them as attachments, but not displayed.
Plain text means plain text. I can't even see ketchup red
comic sans on a bile yellow background. (I used to know
someone who sent here email like that.)
With attachments one can look at the email and
possibly the encoding before the image displays. Though
actually, these days I often look directly at the source
code of anything I'm not sure about, before letting it
preview.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-17 23:14:24 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Or email clients set to automatically download remote images (which is
| the default setting for many - all that I've looked at).
I'm surprised. TBird doesn't. Nothing should.
I'm pleased to hear it; TB is my default choice when setting up a new
person, as it's to me the best compromise between {how I think a
news/mail client should work} and {widely enough used that there's a
_reasonable_ chance of finding someone to help with it} (and also {ISPs
and similar might have a page on how to set it to work with them}).
Post by Mayayana
Remote images are pretty much by definition
web bugs.
I haven't done any analysis for a while, so you're probably right. Last
time I looked, some of the "images" - especially company letterheads and
the like - were remote images to reduce the load on the outgoing mail
server (total size of all emails sent).
Post by Mayayana
On the other hand, I don't do much commercial
online. No online banking, shopping, etc.
I do some - ebay etc. - but I find that's almost entirely via the
browser anyway; the confirmation emails are usually usable in plain text
(though their formatting looks horrible).
Post by Mayayana
| My fairly old client can _render_ HTML, i. e. interpret _formatting_
| tags, and display (some) actually embedded images, but does not fetch
| online ones, or - I think - run any _code_; therefore it is _safe_ to
| view the HTML part. (I do have it set to read the plain part by default
| though.)
|
Probably. Maybe. That's what they all say before
the bug hits. :) A few years ago there was a JPG
attack that used a bug in gdiplus.dll. It can happen.
Or someone might come up with some kind of encoding
that tricks your email into executing a seeming JPG.
I remember the JPG one. (Buffer overflow wasn't it?) Turnpike (and
IrfanView) don't use the vulnerable Microsoft libraries that that one
used, to display JPEGs.
Post by Mayayana
Text is safer and HTML is unnecessary.
Definitely.
Post by Mayayana
| [Another point is that most clients these days (all but the one I use, I
| think), if they are doing images that are included in the email rather
| than link to online ones, can only handle them if the images are all at
| the end, with _links_ in the text where they want the image to appear;
| if they receive an email or news post with truly _embedded_ images, they
| break it, and present any text that comes _after_ the image(s) as if it
| were an attachment.]
What you describe is "truly embedded". Maybe you
mean a data URI with inline base-64 text? There isn't
any reason to need that. The standard is to create
a unique ID that links to a base-64 encoded image
at the end.
I'm not sure what a URI is. What I mean is that, in order for the
recipient to _see_ this, there seem to be two ways of _encoding_ it:

some text
[image 1]
some more text
[image 2]
some final text

The way I mean by "truly embedded" sends it like this (no HTML required,
either):

some text
[image 1, encoded in MIME or UU]
some more text
[image 2, encoded]
some final text

but the way most clients seem to create is

some text
[pointer 1, often in the form <cid:xxxxx>]
some more text
[pointer 2]
some final text
[image 1, encoded] <== these not _necessarily_ in the same
[image 2, encoded] <== order as the pointers

_Most_ modern clients, if they receive an email of the "truly embedded"
format, will at best display up to and maybe including image 1, but will
present the "some more text", image 2, and the "some final text", as
just a list of attachments at the end (or wherever they normally present
a list of attachments).
Post by Mayayana
| A plain text message can include images - or rather, obviously, a
| non-HTML one can; I mean it doesn't have to be in HTML to include
| images.
It can include them as attachments, but not displayed.
Plain text means plain text. I can't even see ketchup red
Well, I can send and receive emails of the truly embedded type,
_without_ involving any HTML. (In fact I don't think I can create them
_with_ HTML.)
Post by Mayayana
comic sans on a bile yellow background. (I used to know
someone who sent here email like that.)
Yes, to me, plain text means that the text itself is plain - contains no
formatting other than that created by tabs and spaces. Not even "in a
unispaced font" - _no_ font. (A depressing number of clients allow the
user to specify a variable-spaced font for reading plain-text messages,
but that's a different problem.)
Post by Mayayana
With attachments one can look at the email and
possibly the encoding before the image displays. Though
actually, these days I often look directly at the source
code of anything I'm not sure about, before letting it
preview.
Certainly the safest option. I tend to rely on the safety of IrfanView
which I have to use more and more often these days, as a lot of images
won't view in Turnpike's old image-viewer.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
- Søren Kierkegaard, Danish Philosopher
Mayayana
2018-06-18 01:21:40 UTC
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| >Remote images are pretty much by definition
| >web bugs.
|
| I haven't done any analysis for a while, so you're probably right. Last
| time I looked, some of the "images" - especially company letterheads and
| the like - were remote images to reduce the load on the outgoing mail
| server (total size of all emails sent).

That's possible. Putting it in the email adds
1/3 for base-64 encryption. It can also be done
for both reasons.

Another problem with remote links is that they
make phishing emails easier. Those will often link
to images from domains like wellsfargo.com, to give
the appearance of an official banking email.

But the web bug problem is substantial and
arguably a good reason not to allow remote
linking. Companies like Constant Contact advertise
the ability to know when an email is opened and
how much of it is read. I assume they depend
on webmail read in a browser, but allowing remote
images in an email client also makes that tracking
possible.

Today I went to celebrate Fathers Day at the
assisted living place where my father lives. The
email sent to tell me about the event had external
links to Facebook with unique IDs. It also had a
link to sidekickopen08.com, with a GUID. I did
a whois on that domain and found it's owned by
Hubspot, which turns out to be a "CRM" and
marketing company. That was just in what was
supposed to be a fairly personal from an assited
living center. Two sleazy, datamining companies
were set to collect a record of my reading the email.

And it's not just images. Recently a friend asked
me to look at her "liberal" news email. She gets news
emails from a liberal activist group, which she then
forwards to friends. I think it's thehill.com. The emails
are stuffed with links to other sites, some less reputable
than others. At least one of the links had her full name,
home address and email address base-64-encoded in
the link. So anyone she forwards to who follows that
link will be reporting her personal info as the source
of their click. Not only her info, but enough to put her
on a postal mailing list as well as an email mailing list.
And that's the people who claim to be the good guys.
The data collection is ravenous.

I've been noticing that kind of thing has also been
increasing on websites. You click a link to sears.com
and the link is not to sears.com. Rather, it's something
like:
thissleazywebsite.com&x=sears.com/somepage.html&
adclient=1734&ID=12345678-1234-1234-1234-123456789012
.... and so on.

Little tricks to connect the dots of one's activity are
popping up everywhere.

| I remember the JPG one. (Buffer overflow wasn't it?) Turnpike (and
| IrfanView) don't use the vulnerable Microsoft libraries that that one
| used, to display JPEGs.
|

Gdiplus.dll is very basic. It was made to be an
update to gdi.dll. Gdi is the basic graphics library
that deals with fonts, drawing, handling images,
etc. Gdiplus adds things like parsing JPG files.
But that bug was many years ago and it was
patched. I only mention it because it's an example
of how hard it is to be sure about computer
security. Virtually all bugs require executable code,
but that one didn't.

| some text
| [image 1]
| some more text
| [image 2]
| some final text
|
| The way I mean by "truly embedded" sends it like this (no HTML required,
| either):
|
| some text
| [image 1, encoded in MIME or UU]
| some more text
| [image 2, encoded]
| some final text
|

The only way I know of to do that would be a
data URI in HTML. It's inline base-64 encoding.
Some pages embed fonts that way. It's also a
handy way to embed images in an HTML file
wtihuot needing to have any external files:

<IMG WIDTH=360 HEIGHT=287 SRC="data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AA......


| but the way most clients seem to create is
|
| some text
| [pointer 1, often in the form <cid:xxxxx>]
| some more text
| [pointer 2]
| some final text
| [image 1, encoded] <== these not _necessarily_ in the same
| [image 2, encoded] <== order as the pointers
|
| _Most_ modern clients, if they receive an email of the "truly embedded"
| format, will at best display up to and maybe including image 1, but will
| present the "some more text", image 2, and the "some final text", as
| just a list of attachments at the end (or wherever they normally present
| a list of attachments).

I'd be curious to see the code of "truly
embedded". I've never seen that before.
The internal linking to a separate MIME
section is the standard. If it uses a CID
it links to a section marked with
Content-ID: [same as CID]

If it's an attachment that's indicated by
Content-Disposition.

That's all standards for email formatting. I don't
know of any other methods. Even if it were just
encoded inline like you describe, there would have
to be some kind of standard marker that tells the
client what that blob of base-64 is supposed to be.

| Well, I can send and receive emails of the truly embedded type,
| _without_ involving any HTML. (In fact I don't think I can create them
| _with_ HTML.)

If it's not too much trouble maybe you could post one,
taking out most of the base-64 for brevity. I'm curious
what it is you're talking about.
Frank Slootweg
2018-06-18 15:19:54 UTC
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Mayayana <***@invalid.nospam> wrote:
[...]
Post by Mayayana
It can include them as attachments, but not displayed.
Plain text means plain text. I can't even see ketchup red
comic sans on a bile yellow background. (I used to know
someone who sent here email like that.)
With attachments one can look at the email and
possibly the encoding before the image displays. Though
actually, these days I often look directly at the source
code of anything I'm not sure about, before letting it
preview.
This thread cause me to look at the source of a message I sent a few
days ago.

It was a text/plain message with a text/plain attachment (.txt
file). But while the .txt file was pure ASCII (0-127) text, Thunderbird
base64-encoded the attachment, so viewing the source of the message did
not show the innocent text of the attachment, but the base64-encoded
'gibberish'. Sigh!

[At least the text/plain message was not base64-encoded, so *its*
content could be seen in the source.]
Mayayana
2018-06-18 15:33:38 UTC
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"Frank Slootweg" <***@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| It was a text/plain message with a text/plain attachment (.txt
| file). But while the .txt file was pure ASCII (0-127) text, Thunderbird
| base64-encoded the attachment, so viewing the source of the message did
| not show the innocent text of the attachment, but the base64-encoded
| 'gibberish'. Sigh!
|
| [At least the text/plain message was not base64-encoded, so *its*
| content could be seen in the source.]

I sometimes get base-64-encoded text content.
Email programs know to handle it, so I usually don't
notice unless I'm looking at a suspicous email's
source code.

I don't know what the point is, unless to get past
spam filters. Since it's base-64 it makes the email
larger, yet there's no added security, since base-64
is obvious and easy to decode.

Maybe it's a leftover from a more innocent time when
base-64 was considered to be encryption. In MIME
standards it's a typical option to pass username and
password as base-64. Someone must have thought
that was more private than plain text.

Steve Hayes
2018-06-18 04:32:45 UTC
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On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:52:55 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Mayayana
| Everyone's situation is different, but for me I'd say that significantly
| less than 1% of my email is plain text. I've been using Outlook since
| the late 1990's, so I guess that's where I'll stay.
|
And you like it that way? Plain text is safer,
with better privacy. (Spyware web bugs from the
likes of Constant Contact won't work in plain text.
Though they also shouldn't work in an email client.
They're designed for use with web-based email
readers.)
Or email clients set to automatically download remote images (which is
the default setting for many - all that I've looked at).
I have set Pegasus NOT to do that, and it pops up a warning whenever
it encounters an e-mail that links to remote images.

When I get such e-mail I usually delete it unread. If people want to
refer to a web page all they need to do us put the URL in the mail --
that saves bandwidth and space on my disk, and if i want to read it, I
can click on it and open my web browser.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Mayayana
Most of my email has HTML, too. But the vast
majority of that is actually "multi-part". The
email program will usually generate a plain text
version of HTML email. That's been the standard
ever since HTML email was invented, because at
that time many people didn't have HTML capability.
If you set your reader for plain text then that's
the version you'll see.
An increasing number of sources, however, don't put the same content in
both parts. Many are just broken; some deliberately mislead - I have one
where the plain text part says "we tried to send you this email in HTML
(pictures and text) but failed; click here to see ...", whereas if I
change to the HTML part it works (a little) better.
Yes, I have ones where what they put in the plain text part is "Your
mail reader is not HTLM capable".

It is HTML cap[able that is what I see because I have set it by
default to open the plain text version, and if I get mail that says
that agauin I usually delete it. It's usually spam anyway, and I
regard HTML mail as a spammer's trick.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'd say the _majority_, these days, of the HTML parts rely on remote
images.
My fairly old client can _render_ HTML, i. e. interpret _formatting_
tags, and display (some) actually embedded images, but does not fetch
online ones, or - I think - run any _code_; therefore it is _safe_ to
view the HTML part. (I do have it set to read the plain part by default
though.)
Yes, that's what I do.


---
Ignore the following - it's spammers for spambot fodder.

***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
***@gmail.com
Mayayana
2018-06-18 12:19:36 UTC
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"Steve Hayes" <***@telkomsa.net> wrote

| Yes, I have ones where what they put in the plain text part is "Your
| mail reader is not HTLM capable".
|
| It is HTML cap[able that is what I see because I have set it by
| default to open the plain text version, and if I get mail that says
| that agauin I usually delete it. It's usually spam anyway, and I
| regard HTML mail as a spammer's trick.
|

It sounds like you need a spam filter. I get
maybe 5-6 per day but the name and subject
are almost never convincing enough to look
at them. Lately most are from Russia, using my
contact webpage form, always from different
nonsense domains, but the subjects are gibberish,
so I don't need to check them. And the names are
never quite right, like "Romero Livingston" or
"Lydia Summers".
The rest are stopped by "Spam Assassin" on my
host server, set to delete known spam.

I also get occasional commercial spam. There's
a building supply company called Harvey Industries,
for instance. They won't let me order without an
email address to send the order receipt to. Then they
spam it. They think they're being clever.
But those spam can be easily filtered. They're what
I think of as "legitimate sleaze". They're not trying
to hide who they are, so it's not hard to auto-delete
them from the server or send them to the deleted
items folder.

Today I got one from developer.com. I have no
idea how they got my email, even though it
sounds familiar. But something about it sent it
directly to deleted email.
I looked it up. Developer.com is owned by a company
called Quinstreet, which buys up domains and then
uses them to do advertising. I'm thinking that
developer.com might have been formerly owned
by CNet. (Actually, CNet hasn't really been legitimate
for a very long time, either.)

What a pitiful idea for a business. Quinstreet buys
up domains that used to be legitimate and apparently
then milks them for advertising until people catch on.
Ken Blake
2018-06-15 14:08:03 UTC
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On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:30:19 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 03:38:57 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
Post by pyotr filipivich
As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.
Try Pegasus first,
1. I used to use Pegasus, but I moved to Outlook because I like it
better.
2. What I prefer or what Steve Hayes prefers should be ignored. As
always, what I recommend is trying the various alternatives and
choosing what *you* like best.
That's what I recommended. I did say "try".
OK, sorry if I misunderstood.
Ken Blake
2018-06-14 19:35:35 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"
I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.
Good news! See
https://www.howtogeek.com/fyi/microsoft-wont-help-windows-7-and-8-users-on-their-forums-anymore/

which says "Microsoft is done answering your questions about Windows
7, 8, and 8.1—at least, on its official support forums.

"The company announced in a post that Microsoft employees will no
longer answer forum questions about older operating systems come July
2018. Microsoft Security Essentials, Internet Explorer 10, and Office
2010/2013 will also no longer see official forum support.

"To be clear: users can still post questions, and other users can
answer those questions. The only change is that no one employed by
Microsoft will provide support."


I wish they would do the same with Windows 10 questions.
Mayayana
2018-06-14 21:04:21 UTC
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"Ken Blake" <***@invalid.news.com> wrote

| Good news! See
|
https://www.howtogeek.com/fyi/microsoft-wont-help-windows-7-and-8-users-on-their-forums-anymore/
|
| which says "Microsoft is done answering your questions about Windows
| 7, 8, and 8.1-at least, on its official support forums.
|

That's what the original post was about. I wonder what
you thought you were discussing. :)
Ant
2018-06-12 22:48:31 UTC
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Post by Ron C
Post by Ant
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.
Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.
Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.
I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs. :(
Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?
Most Valuable Person IIRC.
--
Quote of the Week: "I never kill insects. If I see ants or spiders in
the room, I pick them up and take them outside. Karma is everything."
--Holly Valance
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )
David E. Ross
2018-06-11 16:59:33 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.
In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.

I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?
--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

First you say you do, and then you don't.
And then you say you will, but then won't.
You're undecided now, so what're you goin' to do?
From a 1950s song
That should be Donald Trump's theme song. He obviously
does not understand "commitment", whether it is about
policy or marriage.
T
2018-06-11 23:01:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by David E. Ross
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.
In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.
I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?
Oh my goodness. That explains their useless responses on the
forums. And they write you back and ask for compliments
on how well the did too!
Paul
2018-06-11 23:44:51 UTC
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Post by T
Post by David E. Ross
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.
In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.
I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?
Oh my goodness. That explains their useless responses on the
forums. And they write you back and ask for compliments
on how well the did too!
When they first started doing that, those answerers didn't
even stick around to find out how anything turned out.
If there was some notion of "taking credit", it was
well hidden at first.

The Microsoft reward system is currently tuned for "evangelism",
not "answering questions". So internally, if someone promotes
a product in a successful way, they could be rewarded. It's hard
to say how many biscuits they get for answering a question.

Loading Image...

Paul
VanguardLH
2018-06-12 04:48:32 UTC
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Post by T
Post by David E. Ross
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.
In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.
I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?
Oh my goodness. That explains their useless responses on the
forums. And they write you back and ask for compliments
on how well the did too!
Just like Facebook, you can only +1 their suggestion as a solution but
never -1 them for being off-topic, irrelevant, or automatons who can't
even figure out which keywords to search in the database of canned
responses. Positive-only voting is worthless.
T
2018-06-12 06:20:50 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by VanguardLH
Post by T
Post by David E. Ross
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.
In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.
I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?
Oh my goodness. That explains their useless responses on the
forums. And they write you back and ask for compliments
on how well the did too!
Just like Facebook, you can only +1 their suggestion as a solution but
never -1 them for being off-topic, irrelevant, or automatons who can't
even figure out which keywords to search in the database of canned
responses. Positive-only voting is worthless.
They sent me a survey with a spot to justify my ratings.
Oh Boy! I let it rip.

You guys would have laughed your asses off at what I wrote.
("Enough with the stupid blow off answers. If you do not know
the answer, don't write back!" and on and on and so forth.)

I was mysteriously unable to login to their stuff for a week.
Mark Lloyd
2018-06-11 17:20:01 UTC
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On 06/11/2018 09:55 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

[snip]
Post by VanguardLH
Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.
I once had a minor problem with a satellite TV service (error in online
guide) and sent a message to them about it.

They replied with some instructions on using my receiver (which had
nothing to do with the problem).

I wrote back about that and got instructions for using the website
(again, nothing to do with my problem).

Then I tried calling. The only thing they would do is reset my password
(unlikely to help, I have tried getting the guide on a different browser
on a different computer that had never been logged in, through a
different ISP and still got the problem).

I tried emailing (actually a web form) again, mentioning the prior stuff.

This time they reset my password, which was useless and required a lot
of work to get things back the way I wanted them. Problem still not solved.

A few months later, the guide problem was corrected, with NO evidence I
had anything to do with it. I wrote and said it's working now.

They messed up my account AGAIN. I wish their bots would learn to read.

This is the same company that asked how many mushrooms I had on my dish
(I know what a LNB is and it's NOT a mushroom).

This stuff is one of the bigger reasons I don't use their service
anymore. Also, I'd rather avoid dealing with customer service.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The truths which God revealed have been overthrown by the truths which
man has discovered." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading
And Other Essays_, 1911]
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-06-12 02:40:40 UTC
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In message <5byTC.176223$***@fx15.iad>, Mark Lloyd
<***@mail.invalid> writes:
[]
Post by Mark Lloyd
This stuff is one of the bigger reasons I don't use their service
anymore. Also, I'd rather avoid dealing with customer service.
I'd love to deal with it; however, I think it's some years since I
encountered anything which was genuinely of that description, rather
than just having that as its name. (In any company.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013
Paul
2018-06-12 02:58:12 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Mark Lloyd
This stuff is one of the bigger reasons I don't use their service
anymore. Also, I'd rather avoid dealing with customer service.
I'd love to deal with it; however, I think it's some years since I
encountered anything which was genuinely of that description, rather
than just having that as its name. (In any company.)
I would recommend Adobe.

They fixed a problem that wasn't their fault,
and couriered a solution to me on their dime.
I spent about a week phoning people trying
to fix that, and they came through, even though
it had nothing to do with them.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-06-11 22:48:19 UTC
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"VanguardLH" <***@nguard.LH> wrote

| Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
| responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
| keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
| troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue

I'd agree with that. It's insulting. They go in circles
with idiotic, formulaic interest:

"Can anyone tell me how to do XYZ?"

"Hi, and than you for using the Microsoft forums.
We value your input. Before I go any further, could
you confirm that what you want to know is how
to do XYZ?"

It's like some kind of Stepford nightmare. :)
(PeteCresswell)
2018-06-11 23:34:02 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Microsoft abandoned Usenet after a few years because they didn't
control Usenet
Phone companies have abandoned supplying UseNet feeds too - to save a buck, I
guess.

Everybody's trying to build their own Walled Garden and corporate suits all
over the world are sitting up late at night trying to figure out to control
the internet.

Once Net Neutrality bites the big one we'll *really* see some "Progress" in
that direction.

But here-and-now, I mark the decline of UseNet as a major loss for internet
users.
--
Pete Cresswell
Boris
2018-06-11 16:26:48 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-
support-forums/
Post by Mayayana
No help from Microsoft staff in any help
forums except Win10, the very latest MS Office,
etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Ive always found the Microsoft forums to be as helpful as the:

"Windows is checking for a solution" message that appears right after a
program crashes.

Helpful as tits on a bull.
Auric__
2018-06-11 16:38:39 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-
support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help
forums except Win10, the very latest MS Office,
etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Literally the only time I ever asked MS for help was to verify that a Windows
95 serial was legit. (It was; user error.) Beyond that...?

A friend used to be a low-level manager/supervisor in an MS call center
around 15-20 years ago. She has absolutely no technical knowledge whatsoever.
Take that however you want to.
--
We will love you till you learn to love yourself.
T
2018-06-11 22:59:35 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/microsoft-to-stop-participating-in-some-support-forums/
No help from Microsoft staff in any help
forums except Win10, the very latest MS Office,
etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.
Only like twice in 24 or so years of doing this have I
found them helpful.

Oh, I found a word that gets past their censors: obnoxious.
Chuckle.
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