Discussion:
Positioning the Windows Explorer windows
(too old to reply)
Ken Springer
2018-02-27 20:05:55 UTC
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Windows 7 Pro

Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?

In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Good Guy
2018-02-27 21:44:31 UTC
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Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder
<http://www.helpwithwindows.com/Windows7/Open-Windows-Explorer-To-Specific-Folder.html>
Post by Ken Springer
and position on the desktop?
what the fuck is this?
--
With over 600 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.
Ken Springer
2018-02-27 21:54:26 UTC
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Post by Good Guy
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder
<http://www.helpwithwindows.com/Windows7/Open-Windows-Explorer-To-Specific-Folder.html>
Post by Ken Springer
and position on the desktop?
what the fuck is this?
It's for idiots like you that can't/won't/don't read the full question.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-02-28 00:09:03 UTC
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"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
| window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
|

I think you need to take up scripting. :)
Things like that are not too difficult, but
it's not a one-liner. The shortcut would need
to call, or be, something like a script that
opens the folder and positions it. It's basically
automating the functionality of Explorer.

If it can be done in a simpler way I don't
know what that is.
Ken Springer
2018-02-28 03:37:08 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
| window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
|
I think you need to take up scripting. :)
Things like that are not too difficult, but
it's not a one-liner. The shortcut would need
to call, or be, something like a script that
opens the folder and positions it. It's basically
automating the functionality of Explorer.
If it can be done in a simpler way I don't
know what that is.
This isn't for me, for a guy that's mostly computer illiterate, but
wants to put his CD collection on a hard drive.

One of those that knows what they want to do, but have no clue as to how
to do it.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-02-28 14:55:48 UTC
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"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| This isn't for me, for a guy that's mostly computer illiterate, but
| wants to put his CD collection on a hard drive.
|

Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. :)

This should do it, though each version of
Windows has its quirks. Paste the code below into Notepad
and save as opener.vbs The 2 paths, Fol1 and Fol2, have
to be edited. Likwise, diesred width and height of folder
windows should be edited. I set them to 600x600.

This stuff is very funky. Microsoft have made a mess
of "shell" (GUI) functionality. It's quirky, partial, semi-
documented, and changes with different Windows
versions. Note below that I'm actually creating IE
windows. Since Active Desktop (Win98), a folder window
is officially an IE window.... except that it actually isn't...
though it actually used to be....
Long story.

Since a folder window is IE I can use IE to set the
size and position and location. Since it's actually not IE
I had to load about:blank into a real IE instance in order
to find the screen width.

This will all be on the test.

.... And I don't know whether any of this might be
a problem for those who like to run in lackey mode
with their hands tied by UAC. Your friend will just
have to test it.

'--------- begin code --------------------
Dim Fol1, Fol2, IE, ScrWidth

Fol1 = "C:\Windows\Desktop\Folder1"
Fol2 = "C:\Windows\Desktop\Folder2"
On Error Resume Next

Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
IE.Navigate "about:blank"
While IE.ReadyState <> 4
Wend
ScrWidth = IE.document.parentWindow.screen.availWidth
IE.Quit
Set IE = Nothing

Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = 0
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol1
.visible = True
End With
Set IE = Nothing

Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = ScrWidth - (.width + 50)
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol2
.visible = True
End With

Set IE = Nothing

'------------- end of code ----------------
Ken Springer
2018-02-28 16:05:28 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| This isn't for me, for a guy that's mostly computer illiterate, but
| wants to put his CD collection on a hard drive.
|
Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. :)
Actually, it is. <G>

This is something I would never do for me. I have CDs, but I don't care
if they are ripped to my HD.

For whatever reason, he bought a Pono Music "box". It was backed by
Neil Young, and appears to be defunct. As a result, I've not been able
to find any software for it online. It seems you can buy the original
software, but apparently it didn't always work.

He wanted to digitize his entire CD collection, put the files on the
Pono and an external HD. But he had no clue that the Pono he bought can
only hold 60 GB of data.

The man is very knowledgeable, but he seems to have a mental block, he
says he can't learn. He's dyslexic, and I suspect he was told all the
"You're stupid" kind of stuff when he was growing up, since dyslexia
wasn't that well understood.

But he can learn, he just has to do it slow, and in his own way. I've
been pushing him, and he's "getting it", at least the things associated
with just getting the discs ripped.

He had a Vista laptop, but left it with someone somewhere to do
something with it, I'm not sure what that was, but now can't even get a
response from this guy.

So I gave him options of what to buy, and as I expected, bought the
cheapest option. I wanted him to buy new, but that didn't fly.

So, I'm fixing the things wrong with the refurb laptop he bought.
Missing drivers, HP Connection Manager turned off, etc. Installing
software, and teaching him how to rip the CDs with Media Player. And,
prefiguring the rippng process so it essentially becomes a "monkey see
monkey do" process.

Originally, ripping music was all the computer was going to be used for.
But we've already added Gmail, via a shortcut, and a basic free office
suite.

And I got him to add internet service to his house.

As he settles in with it, I'm sure there will be more that he'll ask
about. I'm hoping he begins to browse the web for the solutions he
wants. At some point, I'm going to push him to take some Windows 7
basic classes online.

The only part of the "system" as he wants it that I haven't done, is
getting 2 Windows Explorer windows to
open where he would like them.

I think he's at the point now where he has to get comfortable with what
has been done, before going any further with anything additional such as
scripting. If that were to go belly up, I don't think he would be able
to handle it at this point. Maybe, some time in the future.

<snip>

I snipped your script, thanks for it. ATM, all my printers are down,
but a new one is on the way. Then I'll print your script, and a couple
others from this thread, for possible later use.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-02-28 23:21:19 UTC
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"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| I think he's at the point now where he has to get comfortable with what
| has been done, before going any further with anything additional such as
| scripting. If that were to go belly up, I don't think he would be able
| to handle it at this point.

He doesn't need to handle anything. Just
test it on your computer to make sure it works
as you want, then ask him to give you the
paths of the 2 folders. Edit those 2 lines and
give him the script. All he has to do is leave it
on his desktop and double-click it.

The 2 paths are where it says:

Fol1=
Fol2=

They need to be the full path in quotes.
Like "D:\Music"
Ken Springer
2018-03-01 13:36:48 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| I think he's at the point now where he has to get comfortable with what
| has been done, before going any further with anything additional such as
| scripting. If that were to go belly up, I don't think he would be able
| to handle it at this point.
He doesn't need to handle anything. Just
test it on your computer to make sure it works
as you want, then ask him to give you the
paths of the 2 folders. Edit those 2 lines and
give him the script. All he has to do is leave it
on his desktop and double-click it.
Fol1=
Fol2=
They need to be the full path in quotes.
Like "D:\Music"
Understood. But at the moment, the problem is now between his hears.
He has a way he wants to do it, and until he's comfortable with this,
he's not going to be willing to do something different.

I've already tried to convince him to do a couple of things differently,
but those ideas didn't fly.

Patience is now the key word.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
tesla sTinker
2018-03-01 20:22:44 UTC
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Alright you ready? Mayayana may want to use this herself.

http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex8/dhtmlwindow/index.htm

Get an html editor and create the webpage. Put this script inside it,
do as it says in its instructions. Once the page is made, you can put
anything on the page such as title at the top. CD collection. MP3 etc.
And links to title artists or to say like, great recipes.
Then on the page the links will link to the windows that will open
inside the one page and they can open anywhere descripted by you in the
script itself on the page. Once the one page is made, the script opens
these when someone cliks on the links on that page, or automatic when
you just open the one page. Make a shortcut to it just the one page on
your desktop. Then when you want to use it, it gets the files you want
and opens them inside other html windows smaller of, inside the one IE
window page that the short cut is made to..

Of course, it makes for a great info tool on your desktop once your done
with it. The great thing is it will open as many as you want.
So, its not like it has to be on the left, and one on the right. It can
be one in each corner of the screen. For a total of 4.
The great thing is, once you have it made up, it can be reedited, to fit
anyones agenda, and then just send them the webpage via attachment.

Kind of like a programmer yup. But is that not what you are requesting.

On the link above, try it out..... the links on the page itself will
open other windows.
Post by Mayayana
| I think he's at the point now where he has to get comfortable with what
| has been done, before going any further with anything additional such as
| scripting. If that were to go belly up, I don't think he would be able
| to handle it at this point.
He doesn't need to handle anything. Just
test it on your computer to make sure it works
as you want, then ask him to give you the
paths of the 2 folders. Edit those 2 lines and
give him the script. All he has to do is leave it
on his desktop and double-click it.
Fol1=
Fol2=
They need to be the full path in quotes.
Like "D:\Music"
Understood. But at the moment, the problem is now between his hears. He
has a way he wants to do it, and until he's comfortable with this, he's
not going to be willing to do something different.
I've already tried to convince him to do a couple of things differently,
but those ideas didn't fly.
Patience is now the key word.
Ken Springer
2018-03-02 02:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tesla sTinker
Alright you ready? Mayayana may want to use this herself.
http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex8/dhtmlwindow/index.htm
Get an html editor and create the webpage. Put this script inside it,
do as it says in its instructions. Once the page is made, you can put
anything on the page such as title at the top. CD collection. MP3 etc.
And links to title artists or to say like, great recipes.
Then on the page the links will link to the windows that will open
inside the one page and they can open anywhere descripted by you in the
script itself on the page. Once the one page is made, the script opens
these when someone cliks on the links on that page, or automatic when
you just open the one page. Make a shortcut to it just the one page on
your desktop. Then when you want to use it, it gets the files you want
and opens them inside other html windows smaller of, inside the one IE
window page that the short cut is made to..
Of course, it makes for a great info tool on your desktop once your done
with it. The great thing is it will open as many as you want.
So, its not like it has to be on the left, and one on the right. It can
be one in each corner of the screen. For a total of 4.
The great thing is, once you have it made up, it can be reedited, to fit
anyones agenda, and then just send them the webpage via attachment.
Kind of like a programmer yup. But is that not what you are requesting.
All of that is wa-a-a-a-y over my head, and in this case would be
definite overkill. The computer owner would be totally confused at this
point.

I believer in the KISS principle, and Mayayana's script is far more
simple than creating a webpage.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
B00ze
2018-03-01 03:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| This isn't for me, for a guy that's mostly computer illiterate, but
| wants to put his CD collection on a hard drive.
|
Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. :)
This should do it, though each version of
Windows has its quirks. Paste the code below into Notepad
and save as opener.vbs The 2 paths, Fol1 and Fol2, have
to be edited. Likwise, diesred width and height of folder
windows should be edited. I set them to 600x600.
Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
Post by Mayayana
This stuff is very funky. Microsoft have made a mess
of "shell" (GUI) functionality. It's quirky, partial, semi-
documented, and changes with different Windows
versions. Note below that I'm actually creating IE
windows. Since Active Desktop (Win98), a folder window
is officially an IE window.... except that it actually isn't...
though it actually used to be....
Long story.
It's nuts isn't it?! The desktop is IE! Folders are IE, even in Windows
10! It's such a mess, there is no telling if they will ever be able to
get rid of it and give us a proper desktop.

[snip]
Post by Mayayana
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = 0
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol1
.visible = True
End With
Set IE = Nothing
Wow, this is so simple and elegant! Nice work!

Best Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo Death may ease tension, researchers report.
Mayayana
2018-03-01 03:38:49 UTC
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"B00ze" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

| Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
|

I do enjoy the challenge. I also like to be helpful.
I guess that's a kind of showing off. But I've always
felt a duty about knowledge. So many times I've
been able to do something for myself only because
someone more expert told me what I needed to know.
I try to do the same with the things I know. (I think
of that as the original inspiration of the Internet.
Before there were blogs with endless comments, and
before EBay, there were lots of people just chipping in
whatever creativity or expertise they could offer.)

Part of it is also a kind of shared frustration. The
first time I had my own computer I spent an entire
evening trying to follow the instruction: "Copy setup.exe
from the floppy to the desktop". I didn't have the
slightest idea how to do that. Nowhere did it say. I
was supposed to just know about drag/drop. The
Windows manual also made no mention of it. I resolved
to learn enough so that I wouldn't be continually
faced with such frustration. What I didn't realize was
that I was in for a years-long project. Not only are
computers complex, but nearly all the people who
make them work have a vested interest in not optimizing
the usability.
Ken Springer
2018-03-01 19:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
|
I do enjoy the challenge. I also like to be helpful.
I guess that's a kind of showing off. But I've always
felt a duty about knowledge. So many times I've
been able to do something for myself only because
someone more expert told me what I needed to know.
I try to do the same with the things I know. (I think
of that as the original inspiration of the Internet.
Before there were blogs with endless comments, and
before EBay, there were lots of people just chipping in
whatever creativity or expertise they could offer.)
Part of it is also a kind of shared frustration. The
first time I had my own computer I spent an entire
evening trying to follow the instruction: "Copy setup.exe
from the floppy to the desktop". I didn't have the
slightest idea how to do that. Nowhere did it say. I
was supposed to just know about drag/drop. The
Windows manual also made no mention of it.
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.

I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.

These types of things I include when people ask me for help.
Post by Mayayana
I resolved
to learn enough so that I wouldn't be continually
faced with such frustration. What I didn't realize was
that I was in for a years-long project. Not only are
computers complex, but nearly all the people who
make them work have a vested interest in not optimizing
the usability.
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
tesla sTinker
2018-03-01 21:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
well, if your going to have a MS system, you may as well keep up with
current events. Its the programming that changes, and thats why it
does not work sometimes. We use Visual Web Developer 2008 Express
Edition. But, we also use this.

https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads/
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Mayayana
| Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
|
I do enjoy the challenge. I also like to be helpful.
I guess that's a kind of showing off. But I've always
felt a duty about knowledge. So many times I've
been able to do something for myself only because
someone more expert told me what I needed to know.
I try to do the same with the things I know. (I think
of that as the original inspiration of the Internet.
Before there were blogs with endless comments, and
before EBay, there were lots of people just chipping in
whatever creativity or expertise they could offer.)
Part of it is also a kind of shared frustration. The
first time I had my own computer I spent an entire
evening trying to follow the instruction: "Copy setup.exe
from the floppy to the desktop". I didn't have the
slightest idea how to do that. Nowhere did it say. I
was supposed to just know about drag/drop. The
Windows manual also made no mention of it.
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
These types of things I include when people ask me for help.
Post by Mayayana
I resolved
to learn enough so that I wouldn't be continually
faced with such frustration. What I didn't realize was
that I was in for a years-long project. Not only are
computers complex, but nearly all the people who
make them work have a vested interest in not optimizing
the usability.
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
tesla sTinker
2018-03-01 21:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
well, if your going to have a current online system you will have to
stay up with current events such as new browsers and programming, you
may as well keep up with the current events. Its the programming that
changes, and that's why it does not work sometimes. We use Visual Web
Developer 2008 Express Edition. But, we also like and use this.
Works on Mac or Windows.

https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads/
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Mayayana
| Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
|
I do enjoy the challenge. I also like to be helpful.
I guess that's a kind of showing off. But I've always
felt a duty about knowledge. So many times I've
been able to do something for myself only because
someone more expert told me what I needed to know.
I try to do the same with the things I know. (I think
of that as the original inspiration of the Internet.
Before there were blogs with endless comments, and
before EBay, there were lots of people just chipping in
whatever creativity or expertise they could offer.)
Part of it is also a kind of shared frustration. The
first time I had my own computer I spent an entire
evening trying to follow the instruction: "Copy setup.exe
from the floppy to the desktop". I didn't have the
slightest idea how to do that. Nowhere did it say. I
was supposed to just know about drag/drop. The
Windows manual also made no mention of it.
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
These types of things I include when people ask me for help.
Post by Mayayana
I resolved
to learn enough so that I wouldn't be continually
faced with such frustration. What I didn't realize was
that I was in for a years-long project. Not only are
computers complex, but nearly all the people who
make them work have a vested interest in not optimizing
the usability.
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
Ken Springer
2018-03-02 02:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Remember, this is not for me or my computer. I set the thing up for
this guy's job to be as simple as I could make it. Did it yesterday.
Yet, after spending an hour working with him, he still called me today
with problems.

It's like trying to do junior high work, and the student doesn't even
have first grade knowledge.
Post by tesla sTinker
well, if your going to have a current online system you will have to
stay up with current events such as new browsers and programming, you
may as well keep up with the current events. Its the programming that
changes, and that's why it does not work sometimes. We use Visual Web
Developer 2008 Express Edition. But, we also like and use this.
Works on Mac or Windows.
https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads/
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Mayayana
| Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
|
I do enjoy the challenge. I also like to be helpful.
I guess that's a kind of showing off. But I've always
felt a duty about knowledge. So many times I've
been able to do something for myself only because
someone more expert told me what I needed to know.
I try to do the same with the things I know. (I think
of that as the original inspiration of the Internet.
Before there were blogs with endless comments, and
before EBay, there were lots of people just chipping in
whatever creativity or expertise they could offer.)
Part of it is also a kind of shared frustration. The
first time I had my own computer I spent an entire
evening trying to follow the instruction: "Copy setup.exe
from the floppy to the desktop". I didn't have the
slightest idea how to do that. Nowhere did it say. I
was supposed to just know about drag/drop. The
Windows manual also made no mention of it.
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
These types of things I include when people ask me for help.
Post by Mayayana
I resolved
to learn enough so that I wouldn't be continually
faced with such frustration. What I didn't realize was
that I was in for a years-long project. Not only are
computers complex, but nearly all the people who
make them work have a vested interest in not optimizing
the usability.
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-03-02 00:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
| choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
| computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
| problem.
|
Yikes. Seems a bit harsh to me.

I think of ignorance having 2 definitions: lack of
knowledge and semi-deliberate unknowing. The
latter would be like someone who never washes
their dishes and manages not to notice the filthy
sink.

But I assume you mean lack of knowledge. It
seems very arrogant to me to think everyone should
be able to manage their computer well. It requires
linear thinking. Some people just aren't suited to it.
Nor should they have to be. Don't we all have blind
spots? I suppose it's somewhat true that nearly
everyone *could* figure it out. But for some of us
that's fun. For other's it's torture.

An example in the other direction is artistic sensibility.
Some of the most talented programmers have no
aesthetic sense at all. If they create a webpage it
looks like 1996. If they have to write or speak they
show themselves to have an adolescent command
of language. They're like human calculators. Those
people *could* become more well balanced. It might
do them good. But I know it would be very stressful
for them. They just don't get it.
Ken Springer
2018-03-02 02:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
| choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
| computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
| problem.
|
Yikes. Seems a bit harsh to me.
I think of ignorance having 2 definitions: lack of
knowledge and semi-deliberate unknowing. The
latter would be like someone who never washes
their dishes and manages not to notice the filthy
sink.
I'm including both. Especially the ones that know they need education,
but don't want to learn. The would rather complain about the computer.
Post by Mayayana
But I assume you mean lack of knowledge. It
seems very arrogant to me to think everyone should
be able to manage their computer well. It requires
linear thinking. Some people just aren't suited to it.
Nor should they have to be. Don't we all have blind
spots? I suppose it's somewhat true that nearly
everyone *could* figure it out. But for some of us
that's fun. For other's it's torture.
I'm not talking managing their computer, but using their computer. I
know an Apple consultant in the "big city" who runs into people that
don't know how to cut an paste

In essence, those that will organize their filing cabinet so they can
find things, but never bothered to learn how to organize their hard drive.
Post by Mayayana
An example in the other direction is artistic sensibility.
Some of the most talented programmers have no
aesthetic sense at all. If they create a webpage it
looks like 1996. If they have to write or speak they
show themselves to have an adolescent command
of language. They're like human calculators. Those
people *could* become more well balanced. It might
do them good. But I know it would be very stressful
for them. They just don't get it.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Blake
2018-03-02 16:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
make several comments disagreeing with you:

1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.

2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.

3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.

As a single example, look at how many people who get a one or two page
flyer with their computer telling them about the recovery partition
that comes with it instead of a DVD, and tells them they should copy
it to a DVD and how to do it, and not only don't do it, but never
realize that they could or should.

And because most people never look at their documentation, that's
another reason why keeping the cost down by not having documentation
is good, not bad.

4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.

5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.

6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.
Post by Ken Springer
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.

I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.

Also having skipped almost no versions of Windows except for Me, going
from one version to the next was seldom a big jump for me. It's a much
bigger jump for those who stick for too long with an old obsolescent
version before moving to a new one, since they have to take in a lot
more changes at once. Many, if not most, people who don't like Windows
10 fall into that category, and that's largely the reason most people
don't like it.
Post by Ken Springer
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.

And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.

I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 21:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.
I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.

This reminds me of a retired individual I had working for me as a
volunteer at a government management unit. At the time, he was about
the same age as you are now. One day he was bitching his head off about
having to pay taxes for public education. He had his education, and
didn't want to be paying for someone else's. Of course, he'd forgotten
that someone else had paid for his...

The conversation ended, when I pointed out to him, that someday one of
those kids he didn't want to pay for and educate, might be trying to
make change for him at the store. End of conversation. :-)
Post by Ken Blake
2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.
So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?

That's actually a similar attitude to the one you expressed above.

This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.
Post by Ken Blake
3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.
"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."

Let's punish the user who will read the documentation by not giving him
documentation because most will not read it. Correct?
Post by Ken Blake
As a single example, look at how many people who get a one or two page
flyer with their computer telling them about the recovery partition
that comes with it instead of a DVD, and tells them they should copy
it to a DVD and how to do it, and not only don't do it, but never
realize that they could or should.
You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".

You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this. I have a friend
who actually followed these onscreen instructions. But still screwed
up. Know what he did? He labeled the discs on the recorded side of the
disc. Ruined them. There was no instructions about that. :-)
Post by Ken Blake
And because most people never look at their documentation, that's
another reason why keeping the cost down by not having documentation
is good, not bad.
So, you would punish the user, by not providing documentation, who might
grow up and be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs?

Attitudes like this, cheap, is why teachers now buy school supplies
because citizens are too cheap to invest in the future. And, so many of
the products we buy are crap. In general, we buy based on how cheap
something is, not the quality of the product.

As President McKinley said, "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap
goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country.”
Post by Ken Blake
4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.
I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation? What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
Post by Ken Blake
5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.
So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.

I see one answer now. Read it on the computer or a tablet. But that's
my point... You can't do that if you don't know how!! And you won't
know how until you have something to read. Assuming the user has
actually learned how to read.
Post by Ken Blake
6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.
Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity. Hell, it's been that way a multitude of industries.
We need to be increasing the options of education, not diminishing them.

I don't buy the books anymore. Why? Because I found them all to be
wanting in one area or another. Fitting into your description of
mediocre to poor. Not to mention, the nearest bookstores are 40-60
miles away, in an area of a quarter-million people.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.
Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?
Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?
Post by Ken Blake
I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.
I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.

But you always take the perspective of someone with experience. I take
the perspective of those without the experience, and it's these people
from whom new leaders, scientists, and ???? will come from.
Post by Ken Blake
Also having skipped almost no versions of Windows except for Me, going
from one version to the next was seldom a big jump for me. It's a much
bigger jump for those who stick for too long with an old obsolescent
version before moving to a new one, since they have to take in a lot
more changes at once. Many, if not most, people who don't like Windows
10 fall into that category, and that's largely the reason most people
don't like it.
I actually liked the UI of Me, although I never owned a computer with it
installed. Technically, my first MS OS ownership was DOS 3.11. But, I
installed an add-on board in my 1040ST that had an 8086 processor and
8087 math chip. Had a similar thing on my Atari TT030, a cartridge that
ran Apple's System 6. My first MS computer was Windows 98. Then to XP,
and every one since. My first Apple ownership was my mothers OS 10.2
Jaguar. Then bought an iMac with 10.5 Leopard. It's now upgraded to
10.11, El Capitan. Skipped Lion and Mavericks.

I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.

I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,
they can't leave the UI alone, and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.

I just did a fresh W10 install using the Media Creation Tool. The
Cortana explanation got me curious, so I clicked the "Learn more"
button. That brought up15-20 lines of info. But it made mention of
MS's Cortana website, and there's so much more info on what MS does you
don't know about. I'll bet it takes 4 pages of paper to print.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.
Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.
Post by Ken Blake
And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.
This assumes you know where to ask the questions. Everyone has the same
number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.
Post by Ken Blake
I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.
I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums. Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.

Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Blake
2018-03-05 19:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.
I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.
Yes. Whether that's good or bad is not my point. If a manufacturer can
keep the cost down and sell more of the product, he makes more money.
And my point is simply that that's why he does it.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.
So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?
No, that's not my point at all. I was simply explaining why the
manufacturer's keeping the cost down is good for me and for other
experienced users. That's why I said "as far as I'm concerned."

And for less experienced users, see point 4.
Post by Ken Springer
This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.
I agree, at least in part, and even more for 8.x than for 10. A
printed manual wasn't necessary, but a small pamphlet explaining the
basics of how to use it should have been included.

But as far as I'm concerned, the main thing they should have done was
made that new UI optional. There should have been a choice between it
and the Windows 7 UI. Let those who know the Windows 7 UI stick with
it. Let those who like the new UI, or those who are adventurous and
want to learn it move to it.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.
"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."
No, I'm not saying like that at all. I don't want to punish anyone for
anything. I'm simply explaining why providing documentation isn't much
help to the great majority of users.
Post by Ken Springer
You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".
An old joke that I hate. Assumptions are necessary for everything we
do in life. If I walk across the street on a green light, I assume the
car coming doesn't the street won't run the red light.

There are good assumptions and bad ones. Avoiding them all is
impossible.
Post by Ken Springer
You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this.
Of course I didn't. But if you buy a product that's new to you and
don't take the trouble to find out to properly use it, you run the
risk of screwing things up--sometimes of killing yourself, for example
with a power saw.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.
I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation?
I am *not* trying to justify that, or anything else. I am trying to
explain why things are as they are, at least in part.
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.
So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.
There are many reviews available on the Internet. I've written a few
of them myself.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.
Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity.
You keep interpreting everything I say as "let's" do this or that.
Once again, I was not suggesting that anyone do anything. I was trying
to explain why things are as they are.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.
Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?
Yes. Everybody did. Mainframes are completely different from personal
computers. Besides being more more complex, they are much more
expensive, so the manufacturers have no trouble with the costs of
printing.

And also note that a programmers working on a mainframe has been
educated in its use. He is very different from a home user.
Post by Ken Springer
Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?
I did not. I graduated from college (1959) well before colleges had
computer classes.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.
I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

My point is that I made an effort to learn what I know. The person who
is not willing to make an effort is not going to know very much,
regardless of what documentation comes with his computer, TV set, car,
or anything else.
Post by Ken Springer
I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.
I've never used and know next to nothing about the Macintosh. I have
no interest in it. It may be great, it may even be better than
Windows; I don't know and don't care, and I'll stick with what I
know. I have neither the inclination nor the time to learn something
new (and I feel the same way about Linux).
Post by Ken Springer
I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,
Yes, and I agree with you that that's bad, not good. If it were
written better, it would need much less updating.

Microsoft does many things well and many other things poorly. The need
for so many upgrades falls into the latter category
Post by Ken Springer
they can't leave the UI alone,
I agree again. Another thing they do poorly. It's OK to make some
changes, if they are clearly improvements, not just different things.
And changes should be made gradually, not dramatically all at once.
It's hard enough to learn one new thing; nobody should have to learn
many at the same time.
Post by Ken Springer
and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.
Another agreement from me. And not just as regards "spying"; there are
many places where they should provide choices and don't. Or if the
choice is there, it's buried so deeply that it's hard to find.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.
Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.
No. They don't choose not to find out. They don't know they can, or
don't know how.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.
This assumes you know where to ask the questions.
Yes. My point exactly. Read my previous point.
Post by Ken Springer
Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.
No, we don't all have the same number of hours. Yes, there are 24
hours for all of us, but someone like me who is retired has many more
available hours than someone who is working.
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.
I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums.
As am I. I think they are terrible. I don't want to take the time to
go into details about why, but there are many thing about them that
are very badly done. Nevertheless, I participate because, bad as they
are, I am able to help a lot of people there.
Post by Ken Springer
Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.
One of the many things that are bad about them is that they are not
like newsreaders, where you can see all the messages in a thread
including your own and any replies to it without clicking on any
message. And if you've replied to a message, when you later see
another message in the thread, you can't tell that it's one you've
replied to.

When they first started with this, messages could be accessed either
via a browser on the web or via a newsreader. The web might be better
for people asking questions (most of whom probably don't even know
what a newsreader is), but as far as I'm concerned it's much worse for
those of us who are trying to help. Microsoft made a bad choice when
they opted only to satisfy those asking questions by turning off the
newsgroup mirror of the forums, and in the long run it hurts those
asking questions too.
Post by Ken Springer
Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.
If by an answer from MS, you mean on the forums, I *strongly* agree
with you. Those people are mostly contractors, not actual employees,
are mostly in India, writing in poor English, and they often
completely misunderstand the question. Even if they understand the
question, they often provide wrong answers. They are mostly terrible.

But fortunately there are also a lot of helpful knowledgeable people
on the forums, including many MVPs. As far as I'm concerned, it would
be a major improvement if Microsoft would dump all those contractors,
and rely on those of us who are helpful. And it would save them money.
Char Jackson
2018-03-05 23:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.

Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.
--
Char Jackson
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-06 02:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.
Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.
Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on
YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and
collating them.)
Post by Char Jackson
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.
And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting
ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious.
Post by Char Jackson
Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
(How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a
file?)
Post by Char Jackson
Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
Who needn't bother?
Post by Char Jackson
There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.
That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.
No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD.
(If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player,
each with slightly different menus.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can't abdicate and eat it - attributed to Wallis Simpson, in Radio Times
14-20 January 2012.
Ken Blake
2018-03-06 15:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:05:25 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.
Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.
Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on
YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and
collating them.)
Post by Char Jackson
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.
And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting
ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious.
Post by Char Jackson
Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
(How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a
file?)
Post by Char Jackson
Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
Who needn't bother?
Post by Char Jackson
There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.
That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.
No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD.
(If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player,
each with slightly different menus.)
Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.

Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.
Ken Springer
2018-03-07 22:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:05:25 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.
Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.
Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on
YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and
collating them.)
Post by Char Jackson
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.
And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting
ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious.
Post by Char Jackson
Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
(How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a
file?)
Post by Char Jackson
Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
Who needn't bother?
Post by Char Jackson
There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.
That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.
No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD.
(If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player,
each with slightly different menus.)
Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.
Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.
And both ideas work only if the new user knows what to do once past
reading the sheet of paper, or going to the website.

One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
to think like a true new user.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Blake
2018-03-07 23:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:04:37 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.
Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.
And both ideas work only if the new user knows what to do once past
reading the sheet of paper, or going to the website.
One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
to think like a true new user.
I completely disagree with that. It ha nothing to do with taking
anything for granted. How well the reader understands depends on how
good the presentation is. Do a good job of it, and most readers will
understand; do a poor job and they won't.

This an area in which Microsoft has traditionally done a poor job. If
they were to do what Char suggested and do a much better job than they
have at such things in the past, it's a great idea. Do it the same
way as they mostly have in the past, and it's next to useless.
Ken Springer
2018-03-08 02:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:04:37 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.
Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.
And both ideas work only if the new user knows what to do once past
reading the sheet of paper, or going to the website.
One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
to think like a true new user.
I completely disagree with that. It ha nothing to do with taking
anything for granted. How well the reader understands depends on how
good the presentation is. Do a good job of it, and most readers will
understand; do a poor job and they won't.
For a year and a half, I worked in a repair shop. Often the tech would
be trying to explain something to a customer, and the customer didn't
understand. The tech simply didn't know how to communicate with someone
that had little to know experiences with the terminology. That is why I
try to stay away from what I call "geek speak", and use terms and a
vocabulary that lets them relate the tech parts of computers to things
they know in their real life.

In fact, I had a conversation about this very thing with a tutoring
customer today.
Post by Ken Blake
This an area in which Microsoft has traditionally done a poor job. If
they were to do what Char suggested and do a much better job than they
have at such things in the past, it's a great idea. Do it the same
way as they mostly have in the past, and it's next to useless.
And yet, they never learn, do they...
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Springer
2018-03-06 04:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't
think they give a damn.

Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And
then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and
other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think?

You get the kind of attitude of "Why do it"?" when there is no
competition to do better than them, whoever "them" happens to be.
Post by Char Jackson
What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.
What's old is new again! LOL This is *exactly* the idea that Apple
used when they introduced the first Mac. They provided just this kind
of instructions via floppy disks. You can find those videos on You
Tube. How to use the mouse, etc. They're really fun to watch.

You don't want to use Cortana, because the may not know *how* to use
Cortana.

Everyone refuses to try to think like the newbie. That's the problem.

How would I do today what Apple did then?

I would put everything on a thumb drive that's included with the
computer. I would also put it on the the web so the user, after they
are familiar with what they are doing, can download the file the
contents in case the drive gets lost, or eventually fails.

I would have the computer boot to a small video every time it is turned
on, until the user learns to check a box that says "Don't run the
video." The video would use clear instructions on how to plug the thumb
drive in, including how *not* to install it upside down. :-)

When you plug the thumb drive in, another video automatically starts.
It explains the basics of the mouse, touchpad (if it's laptop) and all
the basics of manipulating windows, using File Explorer, what the hard
drive is, everything the user needs to know to be able to get started.

Next, have an easy to use online course on the thumb drive that goes
deeper into the OS.

Don't do You Tube videos. Remember, they may not know how to use a
browser! I've had users think the browser is the operating system.

Have a well written book on the thumb drive in PDF format. Have the
book open with as simple of a PDF reader as you can create. Don't try
to have a newbie use Adobe Acrobat or similar. Remember, they don't
have a clue what a PDF reader even is.

Done right, it won't be hard for most people to pick up on how to use
the computer.

Will it work for 100% of new users? No, as there will always be a small
group of people that will never understand how to use a computer. I
once knew a woman where the employer had sent her to DOS class 3 times,
and she still could not format a floppy disk.
Post by Char Jackson
Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.
I like "Welcome to Windows 10" or whatever version it is at the time.
Post by Char Jackson
Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.
I'm so tired of hearing about the expense that I'm ready to puke. Let's
complain about it, but not work at trying to solve the problem.

I'm totally disgusted about it, especially when every one sits around
and bitches about it, but offers nothing for a solution.

How would I solve this problem?

Part of the answer is in the above paragraphs. Put the book on the
thumb drive, formatted to letter sized paper, normal sized text, and the
user can print whatever portions desired. Have a damned good index. I
don't think anybody knows what a good index is, anymore. :-(

Set the book up in sections, so each section can be updated
individually. "But, what about page numbers?" H E double hockey
sticks!!! I mitigated that problem in the mid-1990's. Instead of
numbering the pages 1-500, the first chapter is numbered 1-1, 1-2, 1-3,
etc. Chapter 2 is 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, etc. And so on and so forth. Need to
update a chapter? Just update the chapter, and redo the index. Done!

"But, but but, how do you find the chapter you want with no standard
page numbers to reference?" Put a black rectangle on the edge of the
page, with a 1 for Chapter 1, 2 for Chapter 2, etc. Then stagger them
from top to bottom as if they were index tabs. Fan the pages until you
find the number you want. Or, simply bend the pages so you see the
black, and count. I actually did this for a housing manual I wrote, and
it worked quite well. Some where on my hard drive, I still have that
manual.

MS and others could put the book on the hard drive also, and use the
Windows update system to keep the book updated. Someone that wants a
physical print, could take it to a print shop like UPS and have it
printed. If you call around, you might actually find a really good deal
on the printing and have it printed. I would have it duplexed, and
punched for a 3 ring binder. Then when that new Chapter 7 comes out,
it's easy to insert.
Post by Char Jackson
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.
Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
All of the above, and more.
Post by Char Jackson
There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.
What good is that if the newbie doesn't know how to use a browser?? :-)
Keep it as simple as possible. You can't go wrong with the KISS
principle. In that simple PDF reader, make sure the new user can click
on a button (one of the first things you should teach them) that takes
them to the index. By now you should have taught them how to navigate
the file. Tell them they can navigate the index, and when they find the
topic they want, double click on it and it takes them to the correct
spot in the book.
Post by Char Jackson
That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.
Nope. You just came up with Steve Jobs answer from the early '80s. LOL
I've actually thought about doing this for my own tutoring uses.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-03-06 14:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| >> An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
| >> think it highly unlikely that it will.
|
| It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't
| think they give a damn.
|
| Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And
| then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and
| other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think?
|
It should be noted that their customer is corporate.
That's not obvious, given that they sell so many licenses
in retail computers. And Bill Gates famously bragged to Warren
Buffett that he should invest in Microsoft because they
get a guaranteed "Windows tax" on nearly every PC sold.

(Buffett declined, saying he doesn't invest in things
he doesn't understand. But Berkshire Hathaway is
heavily invested in Apple, so maybe he was just being
diplomatic. :)

The corporate world is very different. Microsoft have
them over a barrel and charge for seat licenses. They
also charge seat licenses for MS Office. Those two have
always been Microsoft's bread and butter. Everything
is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
designed for that from the beginning.

Windows 10 is the first time MS have made a move to
milk the retail customer more, and even there Win10
"enterprise" version allows IT people to block updates.
They've forked Windows to some extent.
(Remember, the end of 9X was actually the end of
a SOHo version of Windows. Everyone had to switch
to a workstation OS.)

In the corporate world there will be training to use
the software. People won't really learn how to use
Windows. They'll learn how to do their job. (Actually,
most IT people don't even know Windows very well.
They just know how to run scripts to set up
workstations.)

Another issue is that Microsoft actually don't want
people to be able to use their computer. That just
means more support costs. Nor do IT depts -- who
depend on ignorance for their income as well as for
system security -- want people to know what they're
doing.

Once one leaves the window of MS Word and starts
trying to manage the filesystem, install software, etc,
one enters a world where few venture. Much of what
one wants to do there is obfuscated and slathered
with unnecessary abstruseness. Before you know it
you're in the realm of secret Registry incantations.
Even the IT people can't keep up with those. That's
why they have Microsoft Management Console and
Group Policy Editor -- so that IT people can configure
systems without understanding the Registry, while
civilians can't do anything at all.

Many of the secret Registry tweaks are officially
documented, but not understandable or even
discoverable to most. The whole system is like that.
Try to block 3rd-party cookies in IE and you're faced
with an intimidating "Advanced" button to even find
the settings. That's if you even knew to look under
"Privacy" for those settings. That's already ruled out
99% of people from stopping the grossest level of
3rd-party tracking online. The adware/spyware business
model of Google and others online would collapse if
even half the public had the slightest idea of how
to set up their computer.

Then wander over to IE Security.... 5 categories of
settings... 50+ settings in each. Those are reflected
multiple times in the Registry, for a total thousands of
settings. And some of them you can't see or set
yourself. But what about the ones that you can set?
How many people know what it means to "Allow
webpages to use restricted protocols for active
content"? It's not in the help. The help reads like an
advertising flyer, or like the first 3 pages of your
toaster oven manual:

"Care for your wonderful Acme Toaster Oven by
wiping the shiny exterior periodically with Acme (R)
brand soft cloths."

Ken Blake made the point that MS can save money
by not distributing paper. But it's more complicated
than that. They save money on support costs by
keeping people in the dark. They also have corporate
buddies to think about. (Why else would 3rd-party cookies,
spyware by definition, be enabled by default while the
settings are hidden?)

So there's the public, most of whom don't want to
learn this stuff. There's corporate/IT, who don't want
people using their computers except for assigned
work. And there's Microsoft, who want to help corporate,
IT, and partners, while keeping support costs down.
Finally there's the tech ecosystem -- MS and their
partners -- who cooperate to milk the public. No one
in that group benefits from people controlling their
computers.

Apropos of that is the trend toward kiddifying
obfuscation. Cute buttons, shopping icons, hidden
settings. Like Apple. If you make it seem simple and
lock it down then most people will think it's more fun
and more stable.... Hey, kids, let's go shopping!

(In the digital photo group there are
lots of Mac users always talking about "asset
management", which is a fancy term for, "I have
no idea where my files are. Is Picassa what I need?
Help!!" They work with Photoshop but need special
software just to tell them where their photos are.
A file system for the file system.)
Ken Springer
2018-03-07 23:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| >> An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
| >> think it highly unlikely that it will.
|
| It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't
| think they give a damn.
|
| Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And
| then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and
| other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think?
|
It should be noted that their customer is corporate.
That's not obvious, given that they sell so many licenses
in retail computers. And Bill Gates famously bragged to Warren
Buffett that he should invest in Microsoft because they
get a guaranteed "Windows tax" on nearly every PC sold.
(Buffett declined, saying he doesn't invest in things
he doesn't understand. But Berkshire Hathaway is
heavily invested in Apple, so maybe he was just being
diplomatic. :)
Back then, I suspect the Apple UI was much easier to pick up and learn
than it is now. I used to tell people that because of the UI, Macs were
easier to learn. I don't do that anymore.
Post by Mayayana
The corporate world is very different. Microsoft have
them over a barrel and charge for seat licenses. They
also charge seat licenses for MS Office. Those two have
always been Microsoft's bread and butter. Everything
is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
designed for that from the beginning.
Confused as to what you mean by "software compatibility".

I think that type of control is was Firefox doesn't want for the user.
Post by Mayayana
Windows 10 is the first time MS have made a move to
milk the retail customer more, and even there Win10
"enterprise" version allows IT people to block updates.
They've forked Windows to some extent.
(Remember, the end of 9X was actually the end of
a SOHo version of Windows. Everyone had to switch
to a workstation OS.)
In the corporate world there will be training to use
the software. People won't really learn how to use
Windows. They'll learn how to do their job. (Actually,
most IT people don't even know Windows very well.
They just know how to run scripts to set up
workstations.)
That alone is a problem. I've got a friend who got a new position in
her company, and now is the "Queen" in the division because she knows
how to do thing in Windows other than just run software.

In some cases, she seems to know more than their IT people, and learned
long before the new job that IT didn't know squat about the software.
Post by Mayayana
Another issue is that Microsoft actually don't want
people to be able to use their computer. That just
means more support costs. Nor do IT depts -- who
depend on ignorance for their income as well as for
system security -- want people to know what they're
doing.
I wonder if that played into the popularity of tablets.
Post by Mayayana
Once one leaves the window of MS Word and starts
trying to manage the filesystem, install software, etc,
one enters a world where few venture. Much of what
one wants to do there is obfuscated and slathered
with unnecessary abstruseness. Before you know it
you're in the realm of secret Registry incantations.
Even the IT people can't keep up with those. That's
why they have Microsoft Management Console and
Group Policy Editor -- so that IT people can configure
systems without understanding the Registry, while
civilians can't do anything at all.
That's further into the system than I want to go. But you need to be
into the basics just to be efficient. The lady I mentioned earlier is a
case in point.
Post by Mayayana
Many of the secret Registry tweaks are officially
documented, but not understandable or even
discoverable to most. The whole system is like that.
Try to block 3rd-party cookies in IE and you're faced
with an intimidating "Advanced" button to even find
the settings. That's if you even knew to look under
"Privacy" for those settings. That's already ruled out
99% of people from stopping the grossest level of
3rd-party tracking online. The adware/spyware business
model of Google and others online would collapse if
even half the public had the slightest idea of how
to set up their computer.
Then wander over to IE Security.... 5 categories of
settings... 50+ settings in each. Those are reflected
multiple times in the Registry, for a total thousands of
settings. And some of them you can't see or set
yourself. But what about the ones that you can set?
How many people know what it means to "Allow
webpages to use restricted protocols for active
content"? It's not in the help. The help reads like an
advertising flyer, or like the first 3 pages of your
"Care for your wonderful Acme Toaster Oven by
wiping the shiny exterior periodically with Acme (R)
brand soft cloths."
Ken Blake made the point that MS can save money
by not distributing paper. But it's more complicated
than that. They save money on support costs by
keeping people in the dark. They also have corporate
buddies to think about. (Why else would 3rd-party cookies,
spyware by definition, be enabled by default while the
settings are hidden?)
So there's the public, most of whom don't want to
learn this stuff. There's corporate/IT, who don't want
people using their computers except for assigned
work. And there's Microsoft, who want to help corporate,
IT, and partners, while keeping support costs down.
Finally there's the tech ecosystem -- MS and their
partners -- who cooperate to milk the public. No one
in that group benefits from people controlling their
computers.
Sadly, you're right, no one wants to learn. That unwillingness overall,
is not good for the fut
Post by Mayayana
Apropos of that is the trend toward kiddifying
obfuscation. Cute buttons, shopping icons, hidden
settings. Like Apple. If you make it seem simple and
lock it down then most people will think it's more fun
and more stable.... Hey, kids, let's go shopping!
(In the digital photo group there are
lots of Mac users always talking about "asset
management", which is a fancy term for, "I have
no idea where my files are. Is Picassa what I need?
Help!!" They work with Photoshop but need special
software just to tell them where their photos are.
A file system for the file system.)
Those cute icons are butt ugly, anymore.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-03-07 23:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| > Everything
| > is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
| > is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
| > custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
| > that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
| > Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
| > for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
| > designed for that from the beginning.
|
| Confused as to what you mean by "software compatibility".
|
I can write software that will run without special
treament or support libraries on Win98 to Win10.
corporate does things like building their own custom
database. Whether they do that in C++, VB, .Net,
whatever, they expect it to run on Windows. If
the next version breaks their software then they
won't buy it.
As a result, microsoft have bent over backward to
maintain backward compatibility. The API from Win95
is still there in Win10. Each update adds new functionality,
but it's never broken.

By contrast, Apple break things regularly. Only two versions
back (2-3 years) is expected to support new software.

Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
won't cut it.

| I think that type of control is was Firefox doesn't want for the user.
|
Yes. They go out of their way to hide things and make
it confusing. I knew it was the beginning of the end when
they removed the option to block 3rd-party images (which
were all ads at that time) AND changed the pref setting
for it.

But what I was talking about was control by IT. IE
was made from the start to be used in corporate, not
controlled by the user but easily controlled by IT staff.
Ken Springer
2018-03-08 03:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| > Everything
| > is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
| > is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
| > custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
| > that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
| > Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
| > for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
| > designed for that from the beginning.
|
| Confused as to what you mean by "software compatibility".
|
I can write software that will run without special
treament or support libraries on Win98 to Win10.
corporate does things like building their own custom
database. Whether they do that in C++, VB, .Net,
whatever, they expect it to run on Windows. If
the next version breaks their software then they
won't buy it.
As a result, microsoft have bent over backward to
maintain backward compatibility. The API from Win95
is still there in Win10. Each update adds new functionality,
but it's never broken.
I thought this is what you meant, but wanted to be sure.
Post by Mayayana
By contrast, Apple break things regularly. Only two versions
back (2-3 years) is expected to support new software.
That is a problem, but Apple doesn't really go for the business user
from what I've read.
Post by Mayayana
Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
won't cut it.
Would/could this be due to the Linux community trying to play catchup?
Get done in 2 years what it took MS and Apple 20 years to do? (Numbers
just for explanation.)
Post by Mayayana
| I think that type of control is was Firefox doesn't want for the user.
|
Yes. They go out of their way to hide things and make
it confusing. I knew it was the beginning of the end when
they removed the option to block 3rd-party images (which
were all ads at that time) AND changed the pref setting
for it.
I get tired of being told you have to go to about:config in order to
make so many changes. A long time ago there were discussions in the FF
newsgroup about making those settings easier for the average person to
change. Never happened.
Post by Mayayana
But what I was talking about was control by IT. IE
was made from the start to be used in corporate, not
controlled by the user but easily controlled by IT staff.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-03-08 03:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote

| > Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
| > is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
| > and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
| > won't cut it.
|
| Would/could this be due to the Linux community trying to play catchup?
| Get done in 2 years what it took MS and Apple 20 years to do? (Numbers
| just for explanation.)
|
Not in my experience. I've tried Linux off and on
since the late 90s. To me the best analogy is the
greasemonkey who's always working on his car,
which is always on the front lawn, never has a finish
coat of paint, and is rarely driven. The Linux crowd
do it as a hobby.

Many of the programs even reflect that. It's
fashionable to never get to v. 1. If I remember
correctly, WINE took 20 years to reach v. 1.0,
yet it's updated *every 10 days*. It's a beta
orgy, not a product.

| I get tired of being told you have to go to about:config in order to
| make so many changes. A long time ago there were discussions in the FF
| newsgroup about making those settings easier for the average person to
| change. Never happened.
|

No, and as you implied, it's getting worse. Less and
less settings in the GUI. More and more settings
added to about:config. There's still no comprehensive
list of what they all mean. Often when I look one up
the only info I can find is bug discussions among
Mozilla programmers. I finally wrote my own help
file so I wouldn't have to keep looking things up.
But then they add new stuff.

geo-enabled: Do you want to let them track your location?

dom.webnotifications.enabled: Do you want to let FF
regularly call home to pick up commercial spam for
you?

services.push.enabled: Would you like for
websites to be able to keep a hidden, open
page in FF at all times so that they can
send you messages at any time?

experiments.enabled: Would you like to allow
the willy nilly download of experimental
extensions as part of Mozilla's telemetry
spyware ....

Every version brings new complications,
intrusions and security risks. Though Mozilla is
not alone. Turning the Internet into interactive
TV and services is the trend. It's not about
webpages anymore. It's about software programs
running through a portal, which is the browser.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-08 14:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <p7qarr$tc9$***@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<***@invalid.nospam> writes:
[]
It's a beta orgy, not a product.
[]
That's gone straight into my quotes file (-; [with attribution]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The average US shareholding lasts 22 seconds. Nobody knows who invented the
fire hydrant: the patent records were destroyed in a fire. Sandcastles kill
more people than sharks. Your brain uses less power than the light in your
fridge. The Statue of Liberty wears size 879 shoes.
- John Lloyd, QI supremo (RT, 2014/9/27-10/3)
Ken Springer
2018-03-08 14:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| > Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
| > is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
| > and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
| > won't cut it.
|
| Would/could this be due to the Linux community trying to play catchup?
| Get done in 2 years what it took MS and Apple 20 years to do? (Numbers
| just for explanation.)
|
Not in my experience. I've tried Linux off and on
since the late 90s. To me the best analogy is the
greasemonkey who's always working on his car,
which is always on the front lawn, never has a finish
coat of paint, and is rarely driven. The Linux crowd
do it as a hobby.
Many of the programs even reflect that. It's
fashionable to never get to v. 1. If I remember
correctly, WINE took 20 years to reach v. 1.0,
yet it's updated *every 10 days*. It's a beta
orgy, not a product.
| I get tired of being told you have to go to about:config in order to
| make so many changes. A long time ago there were discussions in the FF
| newsgroup about making those settings easier for the average person to
| change. Never happened.
|
No, and as you implied, it's getting worse. Less and
less settings in the GUI. More and more settings
added to about:config. There's still no comprehensive
list of what they all mean. Often when I look one up
the only info I can find is bug discussions among
Mozilla programmers. I finally wrote my own help
file so I wouldn't have to keep looking things up.
But then they add new stuff.
geo-enabled: Do you want to let them track your location?
dom.webnotifications.enabled: Do you want to let FF
regularly call home to pick up commercial spam for
you?
services.push.enabled: Would you like for
websites to be able to keep a hidden, open
page in FF at all times so that they can
send you messages at any time?
experiments.enabled: Would you like to allow
the willy nilly download of experimental
extensions as part of Mozilla's telemetry
spyware ....
Now that I know about them, I disabled them.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Blake
2018-03-06 15:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Char Jackson
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.
Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.
Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.
Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.
That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.
I think it's an excellent idea. *If* it's done well (and that's a big
"if") it could be very useful, and it's much more likely to be watched
than printed documentation is to be read. And it could cost Microsoft
next to nothing to provide it to customers.
Ken Springer
2018-03-07 21:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken Springer
You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.
I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.
Yes. Whether that's good or bad is not my point. If a manufacturer can
keep the cost down and sell more of the product, he makes more money.
And my point is simply that that's why he does it.
Does he??? How much does he suffer in having a reputation that
diminishes sales? Maybe these folks believe in the "Ebeneezer Scrooge
School of Economics". :-)

People who feel like they have not been fairly treated usually go
somewhere else, unless things force them to stay where they are.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.
So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?
No, that's not my point at all. I was simply explaining why the
manufacturer's keeping the cost down is good for me and for other
experienced users. That's why I said "as far as I'm concerned."
And for less experienced users, see point 4.
Post by Ken Springer
This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.
I agree, at least in part, and even more for 8.x than for 10. A
printed manual wasn't necessary, but a small pamphlet explaining the
basics of how to use it should have been included.
I think I said this somewhere, but I think the W10 Start Menu is the
best one they've had. But, I don't think too many know how to configure
and use it.
Post by Ken Blake
But as far as I'm concerned, the main thing they should have done was
made that new UI optional. There should have been a choice between it
and the Windows 7 UI. Let those who know the Windows 7 UI stick with
it. Let those who like the new UI, or those who are adventurous and
want to learn it move to it.
Agreed. Especially 8.x. IMO, both 8.x and 10 are limited due to small
laptop screens.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.
"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."
No, I'm not saying like that at all. I don't want to punish anyone for
anything. I'm simply explaining why providing documentation isn't much
help to the great majority of users.
When the user has a choice of using documentation or not to use the
documentation, and they opt for the latter, that is their fault. But if
there is no or incomplete documentation, the manufacturer has removed
choice from the user.

Just a couple hours ago, I set up my new printer. Documentation? Say
What?!?!?! In trying to figure it out, I managed to get it discoed from
the network, and had to reset it. Not a thing about how to do that.
Fortunately, I knew how to find the info on the web. But, how many
thousands of new users, or even users that have had their computers for
awhile, and still don't know how to do that?

Before Christmas, I had to help a woman try to find a file on her
computer. I estimate the system was about 5 years old. She had never
discovered that you could save a file. Absolutely no clue.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".
An old joke that I hate. Assumptions are necessary for everything we
do in life. If I walk across the street on a green light, I assume the
car coming doesn't the street won't run the red light.
That would be one of your bad assumptions you mention below. I don't
even trust drivers to turn a corner when the turn signal is on.
Post by Ken Blake
There are good assumptions and bad ones. Avoiding them all is
impossible.
But you can avoid most of them.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this.
Of course I didn't. But if you buy a product that's new to you and
don't take the trouble to find out to properly use it, you run the
risk of screwing things up--sometimes of killing yourself, for example
with a power saw.
But if you buy a product like a power saw, that documentation on proper
use will be there. The manufacturer has a legal liability if it isn't
provided. But MS has no such liability.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.
I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation?
I am *not* trying to justify that, or anything else. I am trying to
explain why things are as they are, at least in part.
And, so far, it seems as if the answer is how cheap can we make it, not
how good can we make it. :-)
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.
Down a few messages there's a discussion on that. I'm late getting
replies out to a lot of messages.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.
So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.
There are many reviews available on the Internet. I've written a few
of them myself.
I know. But here again, you are (sorry for this) assuming they know how
to do this. And the people who need this the most are the least likely
to know how. Refer to my reference above about the lady that didn't
know how to save a file.

Someone new to all of this also won't know how to tell or recognize if
the info is wrong. Torques my jaws when web pages don't post the date
the info was written.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.
Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity.
You keep interpreting everything I say as "let's" do this or that.
Once again, I was not suggesting that anyone do anything. I was trying
to explain why things are as they are.
And I keep asking, why do they have to be this way, other than to be cheap.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.
Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?
Yes. Everybody did. Mainframes are completely different from personal
computers. Besides being more more complex, they are much more
expensive, so the manufacturers have no trouble with the costs of
printing.
And also note that a programmers working on a mainframe has been
educated in its use. He is very different from a home user.
To me, that's an even more important reason for the documentation.
Education of the users. Just like the programmer... If he didn't want
to study, even though he has the books, will he be successful?
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?
I did not. I graduated from college (1959) well before colleges had
computer classes.
When I was in high school, they had a class called "Data Processing".
Guess I was too lazy or disinterested, but I never inquired as to what
that meant. Now that I think I know what it meant, I sometimes muse how
my life might have been different if I had taken the course.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.
I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
My point is that I made an effort to learn what I know. The person who
is not willing to make an effort is not going to know very much,
regardless of what documentation comes with his computer, TV set, car,
or anything else.
And we all do that. Which is why I "absconded" with a phrase a friend
told me a couple months ago: "Ignorance is a choice." Always has been,
always will be.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.
I've never used and know next to nothing about the Macintosh. I have
no interest in it. It may be great, it may even be better than
Windows; I don't know and don't care, and I'll stick with what I
know. I have neither the inclination nor the time to learn something
new (and I feel the same way about Linux).
Macs excel in some areas, Windows in some areas, and Linux in some
areas. At least in my opinion.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,
Yes, and I agree with you that that's bad, not good. If it were
written better, it would need much less updating.
In some of the threads, even another one I started, it's mentioned about
how hard it is to find anything about how Windows works. I have to
wonder how much moola MS would save by just pausing and cleaning up the
mess.
Post by Ken Blake
Microsoft does many things well and many other things poorly. The need
for so many upgrades falls into the latter category
Post by Ken Springer
they can't leave the UI alone,
I agree again. Another thing they do poorly. It's OK to make some
changes, if they are clearly improvements, not just different things.
And changes should be made gradually, not dramatically all at once.
It's hard enough to learn one new thing; nobody should have to learn
many at the same time.
Some times it does feel like "change for change's sake". I think Apple
is the same way.

And both are removing visual hints, clues, and user available changes
that make it easier to use the computer for many users. I have to say,
the "Accessibility" option on a Mac is absolutely horrible. And Windows
is approaching that.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.
Another agreement from me. And not just as regards "spying"; there are
many places where they should provide choices and don't. Or if the
choice is there, it's buried so deeply that it's hard to find.
I use Spybot Anti-Beacon and turn off most of it. I don't mind sending
telemetry that reports a problem with the system, but my contacts list?
Do you think there's any user out their that checked with the user's
contacts to see if the contacts wanted their info in the hands of MS or
Apple? I suspect not.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.
Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.
No. They don't choose not to find out. They don't know they can, or
don't know how.
Everybody knows you can ask, but possibly they've been chided so often
for asking, they choose not to so they don't have to take the grief.

Almost no one I've talked to agrees with your perspective here.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.
This assumes you know where to ask the questions.
Yes. My point exactly. Read my previous point.
Post by Ken Springer
Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.
No, we don't all have the same number of hours. Yes, there are 24
hours for all of us, but someone like me who is retired has many more
available hours than someone who is working.
We still have the same number of hours in a day. You may have 6 hours,
someone else has 2. It's up to that person to get what they can with
that 2 hours. If they did take those 2 hours to learn about ?????? and
become more efficient at ???????, they may end up having more than 2
hours since they may shave off the time they spend doing some other
activity during the day.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.
I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums.
As am I. I think they are terrible. I don't want to take the time to
go into details about why, but there are many thing about them that
are very badly done. Nevertheless, I participate because, bad as they
are, I am able to help a lot of people there.
Post by Ken Springer
Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.
One of the many things that are bad about them is that they are not
like newsreaders, where you can see all the messages in a thread
including your own and any replies to it without clicking on any
message. And if you've replied to a message, when you later see
another message in the thread, you can't tell that it's one you've
replied to.
There are some forums that do offer a threaded view. Few and far
between, from what I can tell. Libre Office is one that does. In
addition, their forums are available via gmane.org and accessible via a
newsgroup reader.
Post by Ken Blake
When they first started with this, messages could be accessed either
via a browser on the web or via a newsreader. The web might be better
for people asking questions (most of whom probably don't even know
what a newsreader is), but as far as I'm concerned it's much worse for
those of us who are trying to help. Microsoft made a bad choice when
they opted only to satisfy those asking questions by turning off the
newsgroup mirror of the forums, and in the long run it hurts those
asking questions too.
Post by Ken Springer
Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.
If by an answer from MS, you mean on the forums, I *strongly* agree
with you. Those people are mostly contractors, not actual employees,
are mostly in India, writing in poor English, and they often
completely misunderstand the question. Even if they understand the
question, they often provide wrong answers. They are mostly terrible.
Sorry for the lack of clarity, I was referring to the MS forums.
Post by Ken Blake
But fortunately there are also a lot of helpful knowledgeable people
on the forums, including many MVPs. As far as I'm concerned, it would
be a major improvement if Microsoft would dump all those contractors,
and rely on those of us who are helpful. And it would save them money.
Which leaves us wondering, how much money would they save in support
areas like the forums if that had some kind of documentation... :-)
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
B00ze
2018-03-02 03:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| Nice; I think you like showing-off your VB skills lol, just kidding ;-)
|
I do enjoy the challenge. I also like to be helpful.
I guess that's a kind of showing off. But I've always
felt a duty about knowledge. So many times I've
been able to do something for myself only because
someone more expert told me what I needed to know.
I try to do the same with the things I know. (I think
of that as the original inspiration of the Internet.
Before there were blogs with endless comments, and
before EBay, there were lots of people just chipping in
whatever creativity or expertise they could offer.)
Yeah, I was only joking, I know what you mean, it is fun to solve little
problems and post the result online. It makes you better at it and you
get to keep all those little solutions in case you need them yourself :-)
Post by Mayayana
Part of it is also a kind of shared frustration. The
first time I had my own computer I spent an entire
evening trying to follow the instruction: "Copy setup.exe
from the floppy to the desktop". I didn't have the
slightest idea how to do that. Nowhere did it say. I
was supposed to just know about drag/drop. The
Windows manual also made no mention of it. I resolved
to learn enough so that I wouldn't be continually
faced with such frustration. What I didn't realize was
that I was in for a years-long project. Not only are
computers complex, but nearly all the people who
make them work have a vested interest in not optimizing
the usability.
My first computer was a Commodore 64. For a few years all I knew to do
was put a floppy in the drive and type LOAD. Got to play lots and lots
of games. It might not look like it, but you learn, very slowly, doing
that. After a long time I knew lots of strange things, like all the
kinds of ways the computer can crash. Started coding some BASIC, and
then one day, I picked-up assembler and very rapidly became good at it.
It's a logarithmic curve; takes a long time at first but you pick-up
things, then one day it all makes sense. The Commodore did come with a
good user manual, and you did not have to buy more than 1 more book to
get all the info on 6510 assembler.

Best Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo Data, ahh, I think Spot needs a litter box. -Troi
Mayayana
2018-03-02 14:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"B00ze" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

| Yeah, I was only joking, I know what you mean, it is fun to solve little
| problems and post the result online. It makes you better at it and you
| get to keep all those little solutions in case you need them yourself :-)
|

That's actually part of my reason, too. Many times
I've looked for information and ended up finding it
in my own code sample docs or newsgroup posts.
I completely forget that I know things! There's just too
much to keep track of.


| My first computer was a Commodore 64. For a few years all I knew to do
| was put a floppy in the drive and type LOAD. Got to play lots and lots
| of games.

I had a housemate in '81-'82 who bought one of
those. $300 to play hangman?! I thought he was a
sucker. But he probably went on to make a lot of
money in computers.
None of it made any sense to me until there was
a smoothly operating GUI. Then I came across a
chapter on VBScript in Windows 98 Annoyances.
It was a revelation. The author was explaining to
me that I could operate from the other side of the
screen. I could not only know how to deal with a
message window. I could make the window....
So I guess I came at it backward.

Still, at heart I'm not a math whiz or computer buff,
but only an earthy handyman who likes to be able
to fix things and understand how they work.
I use my "pentadigit computer" along with
a 5x7 notebook for work needs and appt tracking.
I do work estimates on printer paper with a pencil.
My friends & family phone list is on paper. I pay
bills through the mail. My grocery list is paper and
pencil. I have no computer phone -- only a Tracphone
that I turn on for cellphone addicts who dislike
doorbells and insist that I "call when you get here",
or when I need to make a call from on the road.
That usage is probably about once every 3 weeks.

I only use computers for computing: graphics,
office docs, estimates and contracts, email,
web browsing, etc.

I once read that Bill Gates's house has built-in
computers and visitors are issued badges that the
computer senses. A visitor can then choose things
like temperature, surroundings and music -- then
have rooms automatically adapt as they move
from one to the other. Our self-appointed king and
Head Super Genius thinks the most clever use of
computers is to create high-tech pacifiers so that
people won't have to deal with their own lives. If
we're among the "lucky" ones, we can just hang in
Bill Gates's womb-house, drooling, eating ice cream,
and being lulled by our choice of music, so that
we won't have to do the heavy lifting of our own
pointless daydreams.

To my mind that points to the root of the biggest
challenges with computing: The whole industry was
created, and is fueled, by poorly socialized geeks
who overestimate their own intelligence and imagine
an ideal world that looks something like the Jetsons
with porn and video games added. They lack capacity
for reflection and see life only in animalistic terms of
pleasure vs pain -- where pleasure is mostly e-pacifiers
and pain is mostly interruptions to e-pacification. Their
attitudes also reflect a uniquely American neurosis that's
tied to our twisted idea of freedom: Freedom means to
do whatever you please as the impulse hits. Work means
to do whatever has to be done. And the two form a
dichotomy. Thus, TV and vacationing are pleasure while
cooking, cleaning, repairing, doing errands, and practicing
one's profession are all dull work, simply because those
things have to be done. That's the mindset that makes
seemingly bright people like Bill Gates do such frivolous
things as turning his house into a pacifier: The naive
logic that if we can make machines live our lives for us
then we can focus on only pleasurable freedom. That
freedom turns out to be the freedom of depressed, radical
alienation, but we *think* we're happy, all the way to
the mall and back.

On the bright side, I saw recently that 50% of parents
of young children worry that their kids might be getting
addicted to cellphones.... So there's hope. :)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-02 19:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <p7bmhe$oct$***@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<***@invalid.nospam> writes:
[]
Post by Mayayana
I once read that Bill Gates's house has built-in
computers and visitors are issued badges that the
computer senses. A visitor can then choose things
like temperature, surroundings and music -- then
have rooms automatically adapt as they move
Sounds like fun to me.
Post by Mayayana
from one to the other. Our self-appointed king and
Head Super Genius thinks the most clever use of
I don't think BG has claimed either kingship or genius-ship - not in the
last decade or two, anyway.
Post by Mayayana
computers is to create high-tech pacifiers so that
people won't have to deal with their own lives. If
we're among the "lucky" ones, we can just hang in
Bill Gates's womb-house, drooling, eating ice cream,
and being lulled by our choice of music, so that
we won't have to do the heavy lifting of our own
pointless daydreams.
Or, we could eschew all comfort that technology can provide. It's not
all one or the other: it isn't just a choice between being cocooned and
totally living in hair shirts/sackcloth; you can choose somewhere in
between. I know that you actually know that, but the above paragraph
suggests otherwise, which I'm sure would not normally be your intention.
Post by Mayayana
To my mind that points to the root of the biggest
challenges with computing: The whole industry was
created, and is fueled, by poorly socialized geeks
who overestimate their own intelligence and imagine
an ideal world that looks something like the Jetsons
with porn and video games added. They lack capacity
for reflection and see life only in animalistic terms of
pleasure vs pain -- where pleasure is mostly e-pacifiers
and pain is mostly interruptions to e-pacification. Their
attitudes also reflect a uniquely American neurosis that's
tied to our twisted idea of freedom: Freedom means to
do whatever you please as the impulse hits. Work means
What's _your_ definition of freedom?
Post by Mayayana
to do whatever has to be done. And the two form a
dichotomy. Thus, TV and vacationing are pleasure while
cooking, cleaning, repairing, doing errands, and practicing
one's profession are all dull work, simply because those
things have to be done. That's the mindset that makes
I know people who enjoy cooking (and I did know one who enjoyed
cleaning, though that's rare!). _I_ enjoy repairing. I used to enjoy
_some_ aspects of my profession.
Post by Mayayana
seemingly bright people like Bill Gates do such frivolous
things as turning his house into a pacifier: The naive
logic that if we can make machines live our lives for us
then we can focus on only pleasurable freedom. That
freedom turns out to be the freedom of depressed, radical
alienation, but we *think* we're happy, all the way to
the mall and back.
I don't like people who tell me I'm not really happy when I think I am!
Post by Mayayana
On the bright side, I saw recently that 50% of parents
of young children worry that their kids might be getting
addicted to cellphones.... So there's hope. :)
I suspect the same was once said about books. Cellphones are not
intrinsically evil!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If your mind goes blank, remember to turn down the sound.
Mayayana
2018-03-03 14:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| > I once read that Bill Gates's house has built-in
| >computers and visitors are issued badges that the
| >computer senses. A visitor can then choose things
| >like temperature, surroundings and music -- then
| >have rooms automatically adapt as they move
|
| Sounds like fun to me.
|
I could see, maybe, if he adds sex robots. Then
I might want to spend a day there.
Would you really want the outside world to be
designed such that you don't have to relate or
adapt?

| >from one to the other. Our self-appointed king and
| >Head Super Genius thinks the most clever use of
|
| I don't think BG has claimed either kingship or genius-ship - not in the
| last decade or two, anyway.
|

No? Look up his advocacy in American education. With
no experience at all he wants to redesign it. And he's
not shy about exerting his influence. I'm not sure he's
gone on TV to claim he's a genius, but his attitude does.

King? In an article a few years ago (Wired, I think)
he gushed to the journalist that he's more important
than the President. His then girlfriend/now wife, kicked
him under the table. :)

In his defense, I expect I'd have a bigger head than
he does if I'd been so wildly successful. But that's not
a reason to defend his views or actions. My whole
point with the above post was about the lack of
judgement and personal maturity in the people running
tech.

Was Steve Jobs a genius or a self-absorbed, power
hungry, pseudo-guru who thought himself a genius?
From what I see, all indications point to the latter.

| >computers is to create high-tech pacifiers so that
| >people won't have to deal with their own lives. If
| >we're among the "lucky" ones, we can just hang in
| >Bill Gates's womb-house, drooling, eating ice cream,
| >and being lulled by our choice of music, so that
| >we won't have to do the heavy lifting of our own
| >pointless daydreams.
|
| Or, we could eschew all comfort that technology can provide. It's not
| all one or the other: it isn't just a choice between being cocooned and
| totally living in hair shirts/sackcloth; you can choose somewhere in
| between. I know that you actually know that, but the above paragraph
| suggests otherwise, which I'm sure would not normally be your intention.

I think that's a red herring. The point of those examples
is that it's an example of tech that's specifically being
used for cocooning. Yes, it's not all or nothing. But where
do you draw the line? Should we increase comfort gadgets
simply because we can? The basic paradigm of human
meaning plays into that. If you believe "he who dies with
the most toys wins" or "life is about having the most fun
with the least pain until death comes" then it makes sense
to use technology for as much comfort and entertainment
as possible. But then, how are we different from cockroaches
lounging on an adjustable bed with a built-in bread crumb
dispenser?
On the other hand, if you see value in some kind of idea
of human dignity and edification -- something beyond the
animal-level existence of materialistic nihilism -- then
technology should be a tool, not a nipple.

| >
| > To my mind that points to the root of the biggest
| >challenges with computing: The whole industry was
| >created, and is fueled, by poorly socialized geeks
| >who overestimate their own intelligence and imagine
| >an ideal world that looks something like the Jetsons
| >with porn and video games added. They lack capacity
| (-:
| >for reflection and see life only in animalistic terms of
| >pleasure vs pain -- where pleasure is mostly e-pacifiers
| >and pain is mostly interruptions to e-pacification. Their
| >attitudes also reflect a uniquely American neurosis that's
| >tied to our twisted idea of freedom: Freedom means to
| >do whatever you please as the impulse hits. Work means
|
| What's _your_ definition of freedom?
|

Interesting question. I'd say the only true fredom is
the freedom to relate to your experience. If you define
freedom as being free to not do things then that's
the freedom of a cranky child. The child is not really
looking for freedom but rather the option to reject
experience.

Of course there's also freedom from slavery, freedom
from extreme pain, etc. But what I was talking about
is existential freedom. The modern notion that we have
some kind of self that needs to be expressed, and that
whatever we do merely through personal impulse is such
expression. And that performing that expression is freedom.
So anything that has to be done is drudgery while going
on vacation to ritually "do nothing" is an expression of
freedom and a source of pleasure.
But if you can't stop smoking cigarettes, or can't
stop eating, is it really a self-choice? Do we really
see people lounging on the beach in the Caribbean
who look happy with their "freedom"?

We can see this "modern freedom" in art galleries.
Someone dumps coffee on a piece of paper or plops
an oil filter on a stand. I remember once seeing a
brick made of common pins. The pieces scream.
They're an aggressive attempt to proclaim the artist's
freedom. "I'm an artist, therefore if I say a coffee stain
is art then you must respect that." That artist has
defined art as their own self-expression rather than
as a sublime expression of some truth beyond the
pedestrian. As such, whatever they produce is inevitably
compulsive "self expression". Is their work an expression
of freedom from the art world's preconceptions? I don't
think so. I'd say it's precisely what art is not: expression
of personal ego. So what is real freedom for the artist?
Freedom to let go of personal ego and thereby enact
something that transcends. Or to put it another way,
freedom from the enslavement to Self. :)

| I don't like people who tell me I'm not really happy when I think I am!

:) I think you're not alone in that. Maybe you
are happy. But what does that mean? "Happy
enough"? What's happy? Pleasure and pain are
relative. One of the happiest moments in my
life was as a young hippie, about 21 y.o. I'd
spent the night sleeping near railroad tracks,
literally penniless, and then made $6 working to
unload a truck full of peat moss bags. I remember
heading into a store to buy some food. I could
eat again! I was so happy.
So is happy that relative pleasure? Or is happy
a lack of anxiety? How many people are not
crippled by anxiety? There are certainly a very
large number of Americans taking happy pills.

| >
| > On the bright side, I saw recently that 50% of parents
| >of young children worry that their kids might be getting
| >addicted to cellphones.... So there's hope. :)
| >
| I suspect the same was once said about books. Cellphones are not
| intrinsically evil!

No, of course not. Again that's a red herring argument.
My point was that people are starting to realize phones are
not inherently good and educational.
It's not a choice between white and black. They're just
tools. As computers are just tools. But people being addicted
to using them is a problem. Children who don't develop
social and physical skills due to phone use is a problem.
(I read recently that educators are finding a problem
with kids who use phones so much that their finger
muscles are not sufficiently developed to hold a pencil.)

But don't get me started on books. :)
Mayayana
2018-03-03 18:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| I don't think BG has claimed either kingship or genius-ship - not in the
| last decade or two, anyway.
|
I guess we're way OT here, but it's an interesting
issue. If you do a search for something like...

gates foundation education problems

...you'll find all sorts of links. Here's an especially
pithy one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/10/08/an-educator-challenges-the-gates-foundation/

Long story short, with no experience at all, Bill
Gates just assumed he was such a brilliant business
leader that he would also be brilliant at fixing
education. It's classic geek short-sightedness,
thinking that logical calculation is the same thing
as intelligence.
He dumped piles of money into education with
the idea that teachers can't be allowed to be
responsible for their job and that children must be
assessed by standardized tests. What does that
mean? It means that for Mr. Windows, the human
element is the problem in education. It needs to
be mechanized, adapted to the abilities of
spreadsheets and algorythms. And it needs to
teach testable learning.

The chilling aspect of this is that Gates had such
extreme influence, with things like promoting
Common Core, simply by virtue of his wealth.
B00ze
2018-03-02 03:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
'--------- begin code --------------------
Dim Fol1, Fol2, IE, ScrWidth
Fol1 = "C:\Windows\Desktop\Folder1"
Fol2 = "C:\Windows\Desktop\Folder2"
On Error Resume Next
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
IE.Navigate "about:blank"
While IE.ReadyState <> 4
Wend
ScrWidth = IE.document.parentWindow.screen.availWidth
IE.Quit
Set IE = Nothing
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = 0
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol1
.visible = True
End With
Set IE = Nothing
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = ScrWidth - (.width + 50)
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol2
.visible = True
End With
Set IE = Nothing
'------------- end of code ----------------
Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet browser
windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window (folder2). I
removed the screen-width code and I still end-up with two browser
windows and one explorer window. I tried adding pauses here and there
but it did not help. Might be because I run Classic Shell and Clover,
but not really interested in unInstalling them to test ;-)

Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo Redundant book title: "Macs for dummies."
Paul
2018-03-02 05:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by B00ze
Post by Mayayana
'--------- begin code --------------------
Dim Fol1, Fol2, IE, ScrWidth
Fol1 = "C:\Windows\Desktop\Folder1"
Fol2 = "C:\Windows\Desktop\Folder2"
On Error Resume Next
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
IE.Navigate "about:blank"
While IE.ReadyState <> 4
Wend
ScrWidth = IE.document.parentWindow.screen.availWidth
IE.Quit
Set IE = Nothing
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = 0
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol1
.visible = True
End With
Set IE = Nothing
Set IE = CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application")
With IE
.Height = 600
.Width = 600
.Left = ScrWidth - (.width + 50)
.top = 100
.Navigate Fol2
.visible = True
End With
Set IE = Nothing
'------------- end of code ----------------
Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet browser
windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window (folder2). I
removed the screen-width code and I still end-up with two browser
windows and one explorer window. I tried adding pauses here and there
but it did not help. Might be because I run Classic Shell and Clover,
but not really interested in unInstalling them to test ;-)
Regards,
You can use virtual machines to test code like that.

Installing them from an installer DVD is a nuisance.

But Microsoft has some pre-baked ones (which run for at
least the 30 day grace period), which you could use.

The selection isn't as wide as it used to be. I have
a WinXP one and a Vista one, from back when those were offered.

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/#downloads

When the grace period expires, you can unpack the original download
as many times as you want.

You may need to change the workgroup on those from MSHOME to WORKGROUP.
That's something I have to remember to do when using one. And I leave
the network cable unplugged, until Windows Update is disabled on the
Windows 7 one.

I use the VirtualBox versions.

The Windows 10 Insider version, the OS itself will expire after
a while. So the Insider version isn't a good deal as such. Probably
a good deal if you cannot get the Insider to run any other way (and
you needed an Insider version for some test case).

Paul
B00ze
2018-03-03 04:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul
Post by B00ze
Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet
browser windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window
(folder2). I removed the screen-width code and I still end-up with two
browser windows and one explorer window. I tried adding pauses here
and there but it did not help. Might be because I run Classic Shell
and Clover, but not really interested in unInstalling them to test ;-)
Regards,
You can use virtual machines to test code like that.
Installing them from an installer DVD is a nuisance.
Yeah, I mean to get to that at some point. I used to have 2 copies of Xp
running dual boot so I could test things, but nowadays I run 7/10 and 7
32 bits (might replace that with a Linux variant one day, but the
partition is pretty small). I would need a bigger SSD to run more.
Post by Paul
But Microsoft has some pre-baked ones (which run for at
least the 30 day grace period), which you could use.
The selection isn't as wide as it used to be. I have
a WinXP one and a Vista one, from back when those were offered.
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/#downloads
When the grace period expires, you can unpack the original download
as many times as you want.
Thanks, Bookmarked (typical Microsoft, the VM downloads are in the
Microsoft-Edge folder).
Post by Paul
You may need to change the workgroup on those from MSHOME to WORKGROUP.
That's something I have to remember to do when using one. And I leave
the network cable unplugged, until Windows Update is disabled on the
Windows 7 one.
I use the VirtualBox versions.
Yeah, that's what I plan to use. We use VMWare @ work but it's
unfortunately (no longer) free for home use...
Post by Paul
The Windows 10 Insider version, the OS itself will expire after
a while. So the Insider version isn't a good deal as such. Probably
a good deal if you cannot get the Insider to run any other way (and
you needed an Insider version for some test case).
Says they expire after 90 days. But running things in Insider isn't
really what I need - I don't have time to test everything I use each
time Microsoft releases a new sub-version.

Best Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo How come I can never find Troi when I'm angry at her?
Mayayana
2018-03-02 14:29:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"B00ze" <***@hotmail.com> wrote

| Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet browser
| windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window (folder2).

I wrote it on XP and haven't had a chance to test it
on 7. It may not work on all systems. That's why
I suggested to Ken that he test it first. Shell is
quirky, as you know.

But.... the result you get seems odd. What's the
location shown in the title bar of the IE on the left?
Could it be that Fol1 is not a valid path? Or that it's
restricted?
Also, you shouldn't be seeing the first IE. It's never
made visible. (Though that quirk could be a Windows
security change, I'd be surprised.)

Each folder starts as an IE instance and becomes
an Explorer instance as a result of navigating to a
folder rather than a webpage. (The document object
then becomes a ShellFolderView object.) So.... if you
get one folder then it seems to be working. If the other
folder is not loading then I'd suspect the folder, or
the code.

If you don't get it maybe you could post the exact
code and I can test it here.
B00ze
2018-03-03 05:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| Hmmm, doesn't work well on my system. I end-up with two internet browser
| windows (positioned as requested,) and one explorer window (folder2).
I wrote it on XP and haven't had a chance to test it
on 7. It may not work on all systems. That's why
I suggested to Ken that he test it first. Shell is
quirky, as you know.
Yeah, I really think it's Clover. It patches Explorer (installs a BHO)
and intercepts new windows and turns them into TABs.
Post by Mayayana
But.... the result you get seems odd. What's the
location shown in the title bar of the IE on the left?
Could it be that Fol1 is not a valid path? Or that it's
restricted?
Nope, I used C:\ and D:\ for the test. It's the NAVIGATE, it doesn't
work right, they never go to where we ask.
Post by Mayayana
Also, you shouldn't be seeing the first IE. It's never
made visible. (Though that quirk could be a Windows
security change, I'd be surprised.)
That's the strange thing, I am not seeing that first window. I end-up
with 2 correctly positioned IE windows, and then Clover intercepts the
folder2 navigate command and opens-up a new TAB in my existing Explorer
window. No idea where the first navigate goes lol.
Post by Mayayana
Each folder starts as an IE instance and becomes
an Explorer instance as a result of navigating to a
folder rather than a webpage. (The document object
then becomes a ShellFolderView object.) So.... if you
get one folder then it seems to be working. If the other
folder is not loading then I'd suspect the folder, or
the code.
No I think the code's fine. It's fun that we can move the window around
and tell it to browse a folder ALL before making it visible, I was
afraid I'd see everything paint when I read the first few lines (before
seeing the visible = True).

That Clover program interferes with Classic Shell too, but I kinda like
having tabs. An explorer replacement is on the TODO list, then I can get
rid of the Clover hack.

Best Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo CHILDISH GAME: One at which you cannot beat your spouse.
B00ze
2018-02-28 04:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
/e,path will open to the folder you want, for example make a shortcut to
C:\WINDOWS\EXPLORER.EXE /e,D:\ will open D: drive.

But you cannot position windows without some tool; maybe AutoIt does it?
Needs scripting...

Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo I made it foolproof, but they're making better fools.
Ken Springer
2018-02-28 16:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by B00ze
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
/e,path will open to the folder you want, for example make a shortcut to
C:\WINDOWS\EXPLORER.EXE /e,D:\ will open D: drive.
Easier than that. :-) Open Windows Explorer, in the navigation pane,
navigate to the folder you want to open. Highlight, right click, Send
to desktop. Done.
Post by B00ze
But you cannot position windows without some tool; maybe AutoIt does it?
Needs scripting...
Scripting is out of the picture at this point.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
B00ze
2018-03-01 03:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Post by B00ze
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
/e,path will open to the folder you want, for example make a shortcut to
C:\WINDOWS\EXPLORER.EXE /e,D:\ will open D: drive.
Easier than that. :-) Open Windows Explorer, in the navigation pane,
navigate to the folder you want to open. Highlight, right click, Send
to desktop. Done.
Ah yes, you are correct, we can just create shortcuts! ;-)
Post by Ken Springer
Post by B00ze
But you cannot position windows without some tool; maybe AutoIt does it?
Needs scripting...
Scripting is out of the picture at this point.
Lol, Mayayana provided a really beautiful solution earlier in this thread...

Best Regards,
--
! _\|/_ Sylvain / ***@hotmail.com
! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo It is bad luck to be superstitious.
Zaidy036
2018-02-28 08:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Nirsoft has commands to size and position windows.
https://www.nirsoft.net/
Make two batch files each with location you want. Place shortcuts on
desktop and drop folder into it.
--
Zaidy036
Paul
2018-02-28 08:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Zaidy036
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Nirsoft has commands to size and position windows.
https://www.nirsoft.net/
Make two batch files each with location you want. Place shortcuts on
desktop and drop folder into it.
Nircmd or some other one ?

http://nircmd.nirsoft.net/win.html

I couldn't figure out how the "win" commands worked.
The example here implies the last window opened is the
one that has the command applied to it ? They don't
seem to be "finding" anything.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10392620/how-can-a-batch-file-run-a-program-and-set-the-position-and-size-of-the-window

Explorer /n,c:\develop\jboss-4.2.3.GA\server\default\deploy
nircmd wait 1000 win setsize ititle "something" x, y, width, height

Paul
Zaidy036
2018-02-28 11:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul
Post by Zaidy036
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Nirsoft has commands to size and position windows.
https://www.nirsoft.net/
Make two batch files each with location you want. Place shortcuts on
desktop and drop folder into it.
Nircmd or some other one ?
http://nircmd.nirsoft.net/win.html
I couldn't figure out how the "win" commands worked.
The example here implies the last window opened is the
one that has the command applied to it ? They don't
seem to be "finding" anything.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10392620/how-can-a-batch-file-run-a-program-and-set-the-position-and-size-of-the-window
Explorer /n,c:\develop\jboss-4.2.3.GA\server\default\deploy
nircmd wait 1000 win setsize ititle "something" x, y, width, height
Paul
Wish I could help better but I am on iPad and not home to refer to my
batches.

“something” is some text included in the name of the cmd window you are
trying to adjust. Run you batch and see what it says.

X and y are top left corner in pixels, of new location and accepts negative
numbers to move to a second monitor if you have one. Width and height are
also in pixels. I would test without wait and just have batch setsize and
pause & exit
--
Zaidy036
Ken Springer
2018-02-28 16:20:44 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Paul
The example here implies the last window opened is the
one that has the command applied to it ?
I think it's the last windows that's closed.

I just opened 4 Windows Explorer windows, scattered them about the
screen and made each one a different size. Then closed them all.
Opened a new window, it opened at the size and position of the last
window closed.

I did not do anything but this one test, so the action may fail if done
another way.

And it does fail, apparently, if your window is snapped to either or
both edges. I snapped 2 Windows Explorer to each side of the screen.
Closed them. Opened a new window.

The new window opened in the center of the monitor, some percentage
smaller than full size, and apparently with an aspect ratio that matches
the monitor.

As with Mayayana's script, this post is marked for printing later.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Springer
2018-02-28 16:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Zaidy036
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Nirsoft has commands to size and position windows.
https://www.nirsoft.net/
Make two batch files each with location you want. Place shortcuts on
desktop and drop folder into it.
The goal is to simply double click a shortcut and be done.

But thanks for the suggestion.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Zaidy036
2018-02-28 18:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Zaidy036
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Nirsoft has commands to size and position windows.
https://www.nirsoft.net/
Make two batch files each with location you want. Place shortcuts on
desktop and drop folder into it.
The goal is to simply double click a shortcut and be done.
But thanks for the suggestion.
If it is always the same two folders then make a batch and one shortcut to
run. Other wise how do you select folders?
--
Zaidy036
Ken Springer
2018-02-28 21:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Zaidy036
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Zaidy036
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Nirsoft has commands to size and position windows.
https://www.nirsoft.net/
Make two batch files each with location you want. Place shortcuts on
desktop and drop folder into it.
The goal is to simply double click a shortcut and be done.
But thanks for the suggestion.
If it is always the same two folders then make a batch and one shortcut to
run. Other wise how do you select folders?
Doing a batch file for this gentleman is out of his league at the moment.

Not sure what you're asking with the select folders question.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
JJ
2018-02-28 08:13:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Interresting idea. Use below VBScript.

<https://pastebin.com/BnizXHvf>

Usage e.g.

explore.vbs /path "d:\my data" /left 0 /top 0 /width 800 /height 600

Running the script without any parameter will show the usage help.
JJ
2018-02-28 08:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by JJ
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer
window to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Interresting idea. Use below VBScript.
<https://pastebin.com/BnizXHvf>
Usage e.g.
explore.vbs /path "d:\my data" /left 0 /top 0 /width 800 /height 600
Running the script without any parameter will show the usage help.
Oops, it seems that the usage help is bugged. Use below instead.

<https://pastebin.com/S4EJWxuF>

Since the usage help is pretty long, it won't fit onto the message dialog
(when the script is executed by double clicking the VBS file, or is run
using WSCRIPT.EXE). To see the full help, run it from the command line using
CSCRIPT.EXE.
Bob_S
2018-03-02 02:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Windows 7 Pro
Using a desktop shortcut, is it possible to open a Windows Explorer window
to a specific folder and position on the desktop?
In this specific case, I'd like to have a shortcut open Folder A in a
window that is snapped to the left, and a 2nd shortcut open Folder B
snapped to the right.
Ken, This will get most of what you want:

http://geekswithblogs.net/murraybgordon/articles/93760.aspx

Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in
the Target window.

Maybe somebody already suggested this but I'm not going to read all those
posts just to answer a simple request.
--
Bob S.
Mayayana
2018-03-02 02:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Bob_S" <***@here.com> wrote

| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in
| the Target window.
|

What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
Ken Springer
2018-03-02 02:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
Exactly. It's what you would end up with if you open the 2 Explorer
windows, then snap one to the left, and one to the right.

I think you can do most of what's in that webpage by simply creating
shortcuts in 7.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Bob_S
2018-03-02 03:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
--
Bob S.
Ken Springer
2018-03-02 03:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
ROFL
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Bob_S
2018-03-02 03:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you
want
in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
ROFL
Ken,

See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The
SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page
https://www.ghisler.com/
--
Bob S.
Ken Springer
2018-03-02 10:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Post by Bob_S
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you
want
in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
ROFL
Ken,
See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The
SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page
https://www.ghisler.com/
At this stage, Total Commander will "totally confuse" this guy. :-)

The concept of the filesystem hierarchy still hasn't sunk in. The
"light bulb" hasn't come on.

Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
hierarchy is so much easier to explain when your file manager has
"lines" like XP and older system have. I may end up installing only the
Classic Explorer part of Classic Shell, so he has the lines for his eyes
to follow. I've created a simple chart that visually shows the
hierarchy, but laid out as if it was an organizational chart, but I
don't know if he's really looked at it.

I'm fairly sure that, at some point, he's going to decide he wants his
music categorized, into R&B, country, soft rock, etc., and that should
be the perfect time to explain the hierarchy.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-02 12:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <p7b8hi$o5u$***@news.albasani.net>, Ken Springer
<***@greeleynet.com> writes:
[]
Post by Ken Springer
At this stage, Total Commander will "totally confuse" this guy. :-)
The concept of the filesystem hierarchy still hasn't sunk in. The
"light bulb" hasn't come on.
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.

(He's not dim; I'm quite proud that he's managed to convert most of his
LP collection onto CDs, using mp3directcut to cut sides into tracks, and
so on. He's a retired printer - from hot metal days, but I think would
have used linotype machines, not just hand-layout.)
Post by Ken Springer
hierarchy is so much easier to explain when your file manager has
"lines" like XP and older system have. I may end up installing only
(My friend has Vista, which I think still has the lines.)
Post by Ken Springer
the Classic Explorer part of Classic Shell, so he has the lines for his
eyes to follow. I've created a simple chart that visually shows the
hierarchy, but laid out as if it was an organizational chart, but I
don't know if he's really looked at it.
That is indeed the problem. You can't give them too much at once, or
they suffer from information overload.
Post by Ken Springer
I'm fairly sure that, at some point, he's going to decide he wants his
music categorized, into R&B, country, soft rock, etc., and that should
be the perfect time to explain the hierarchy.
Could be; good luck.
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd really
like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to make a new
folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or at best would
only ever do so in one or two specific places.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is one of the reasons being British is good. It's not a subset of
Britain - it's almost as if Britain is a subset of Radio 4. - Stephen Fry, in
Radio Times, 7-13 June, 2003.
Wolf K
2018-03-02 14:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-02 07:34, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd really
like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to make a new
folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or at best would
only ever do so in one or two specific places.
Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila folders
stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify hierarchically to
begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of incorrectly classified
lists I've seen, even in papers published in professional journals. For
that matter, many scientific problems hide classification/category
errors in their assumptions. Eg, nature vs nurture. "If you don't ask
the right question...."

I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't do
it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math section.
So I helped them move their notes into the right sections, step by step,
and two days later it was all a mess again.

Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.
Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-02 19:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is
so obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd
really like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to
make a new folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or
at best would only ever do so in one or two specific places.
Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila
folders stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify
I don't think it was/is a good metaphor anyway. I _have_ used manila
folders, but I don't think I've ever put them inside each other! They
were a good metaphor when the hierarchy was only one level deep, i. e.
not really a hierarchy. But ...
Post by Wolf K
hierarchically to begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of
... I think that's the real problem. At least, have never been trained
to think hierarchically. I guess there are _some_ who genuinely can't,
and a lot more who have never really been trained to. (And no, I'm not
claiming this is something simple to do. As I have found.)
[]
Post by Wolf K
I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't
do it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math
section. So I helped them move their notes into the right sections,
step by step, and two days later it was all a mess again.
Despite it being them who invented the metaphor, Microsoft are a bit to
blame here: their folders, and the ones they encourage users to use, are
very sloppy (and even inconsistent).
Post by Wolf K
Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.
I'm very untidy in my house, but (IMO) tidy inside my computer.
Post by Wolf K
Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.
(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If your mind goes blank, remember to turn down the sound.
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 18:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is
so obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd
really like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to
make a new folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or
at best would only ever do so in one or two specific places.
Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila
folders stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify
I don't think it was/is a good metaphor anyway. I _have_ used manila
folders, but I don't think I've ever put them inside each other! They
were a good metaphor when the hierarchy was only one level deep, i. e.
not really a hierarchy. But ...
One metaphor I used to use is the case of a Christmas present. You open
the box, and there's another box inside plus a couple of items. Open
that box, and still another box and some items. On and on.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Wolf K
hierarchically to begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of
... I think that's the real problem. At least, have never been trained
to think hierarchically. I guess there are _some_ who genuinely can't,
and a lot more who have never really been trained to. (And no, I'm not
claiming this is something simple to do. As I have found.)
[]
Post by Wolf K
I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't
do it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math
section. So I helped them move their notes into the right sections,
step by step, and two days later it was all a mess again.
Despite it being them who invented the metaphor, Microsoft are a bit to
blame here: their folders, and the ones they encourage users to use, are
very sloppy (and even inconsistent).
Post by Wolf K
Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.
I'm very untidy in my house, but (IMO) tidy inside my computer.
Post by Wolf K
Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 18:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Wolf K
[...]
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd really
like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to make a new
folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or at best would
only ever do so in one or two specific places.
Good question. It may be that some people never used real manila folders
stored in file cabinets. Or they just can't classify hierarchically to
begin with. You wouldn't believe the number of incorrectly classified
lists I've seen, even in papers published in professional journals. For
that matter, many scientific problems hide classification/category
errors in their assumptions. Eg, nature vs nurture. "If you don't ask
the right question...."
I think it's a glitch in the brain. Eg, I used to have my grade 9
students organise their 3-ring binders by subject. About 10% couldn't do
it even when looking at a page of Geography notes in the Math section.
So I helped them move their notes into the right sections, step by step,
and two days later it was all a mess again.
Is it a glitch, or just the fact that we are all not alike, and our
brains work differently?
Post by Wolf K
Then there are people who are neatness-blind, or tone-deaf. Etc.
Neurologists will solve some of these puzzles eventually.
You can put me in the neatness-blind category! LOL

All my life, if I left things in a mess, I knew that X was "over there".
When I try to organize, in a short time I don't know where anything is.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-03-02 15:16:38 UTC
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-***@255soft.uk> wrote

| What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
| obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some?
|

I don't think it's at all obvious. The original
idea was to use a desk/paper/file cabinet
metaphor, but the metaphor simply doesn't
work. It's not self-evident. Only the names
are the same. There are far too many
differences. Just one example: When you
move a paper across your desk it moves,
but when you put it into a file cabinet it
doesn't magically copy.

Likewise with writing files. We can say that
a DOC is equivalent to a paper-printed
letter, but it's simply not true. They have
very little in common until you print the DOC.
20 years of typewriters and White-Out won't
be of any help at all in learning how to cut,
copy, paste or get rid of talking paperclip
cartoons that pop up while you're trying to
learn how to cut, copy, paste. It's a high
bar to become adept with the tool.

I think the office metaphors actually end
up being an obstacle. People need to learn
a profoundly different system.
Ken Blake
2018-03-02 15:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.
Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing
folders, and several folders in each of them?

Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an
actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy.
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 18:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.
Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing
folders, and several folders in each of them?
Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an
actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy.
I used to use the "folder in a folder" metaphor too, but this will break
down when the student suddenly realizes you can't physically fit any
more folders inside the one folder.

Maybe better is this:

You need a bunch of folders with the tabs staggered across the top. One
level is a folder with the tab on the left end. The next level down is
a physical folder with the tab one step to the right. Next level down
are folders with the tabs one more step to the right. :-)
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ron C
2018-03-04 21:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Post by Ken Blake
On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.
Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing
folders, and several folders in each of them?
Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an
actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy.
I used to use the "folder in a folder" metaphor too, but this will break
down when the student suddenly realizes you can't physically fit any
more folders inside the one folder.
You need a bunch of folders with the tabs staggered across the top.  One
level is a folder with the tab on the left end.  The next level down is
a physical folder with the tab one step to the right.  Next level down
are folders with the tabs one more step to the right.  :-)
How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large
empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes
are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes.

Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
==
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-05 22:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In message <Eq6dnWYSYofF-QHHnZ2dnUU7-***@giganews.com>, Ron C
<***@verizon.net> writes:
[]
Post by Ron C
How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large
empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes
are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes.
Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging.
But that encourages the thought that each level is _different_ to the
one above. Which I fear a lot of newbies think anyway.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
Ron C
2018-03-05 23:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ron C
How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large
empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes
are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes.
Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging.
But that encourages the thought that each level is _different_ to the
one above. Which I fear a lot of newbies think anyway.
Label your rooms properly/logically and what goes in that room
should follow. You don't put your car in the bathroom .. etc.
Then too, my "logical" hierarchy may seem totally illogical to you.
[YMMV]
--
==
Later...
Ron C
==
Paul
2018-03-02 22:33:50 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.
A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure

Finding your files is like "going down a mine".

It also makes it possible to give a justification
for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying"
a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram,
it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another
without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving
a file up and down within a single inverted tree.

The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the
question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for".
And to answer that, the first GUI people said it
"was the top surface of your desk". Which it really
isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part
of the "story".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor

"The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay
at Xerox PARC in 1970"

I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)

I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use
an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way.
You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff
and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the
explanations now should be a bit milder and easier
to take.

IPL CMS,

Paul
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-02 23:37:33 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Paul
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who
doesn't grasp the concept of folders within folders.
A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure
I'm sure I must have used the tree metaphor; as far as it goes, it's a
good one: branches can have other branches but also leaves, and leaves
can even grow out of the trunk.

I think it's just a mental block.
Post by Paul
Finding your files is like "going down a mine".
It also makes it possible to give a justification
for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying"
a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram,
it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another
without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving
a file up and down within a single inverted tree.
But that only works if you intuitively grasp the concept in the first
place. Extra metaphors are just, after a point, extra sources of
confusion.
Post by Paul
The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the
question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for".
And to answer that, the first GUI people said it
"was the top surface of your desk". Which it really
isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part
of the "story".
I never thought it was a good metaphor, and don't really think of my
"desktop" as a real desk top.
Post by Paul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor
"The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay
at Xerox PARC in 1970"
An awful lot of windows concepts seem to be the subject of claims from
Xerox PARC in the '70s (-:.
Post by Paul
I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)
I remember one - I think it was Packard Bell - who presented a view of a
hallway, with rooms opening off it.
Post by Paul
I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use
an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way.
You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff
and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the
explanations now should be a bit milder and easier
to take.
I never programmed that particular processor, but if the reason is what
I think it is, I don't think I'd have wondered why I might want to use a
swap instruction. Of course I don't know about the "191 and 192 stuff".
Post by Paul
IPL CMS,
interrupt, program, load?
Post by Paul
Paul
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Once a mind is opened it is very hard to shut.
Paul
2018-03-03 04:43:44 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Paul
IPL CMS,
interrupt, program, load?
Initial Program Load perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversational_Monitor_System

The first computer I worked on, was a mainframe that took
punched cards. And those had a tiny bit of JCL at the start,
and you'd slap some number of 7-8-9 (orange) and 6-7-8-9
(pink) cards to your deck (those are a kind of record marker).
I think when i was done with punched cards, I'd collected
around two boxes (4000 cards).

Hey, look! They have a picture of the pink card!!! Yikes.
It's missing the 6-7-8-9 holes in a single column though.

Loading Image...

And no, the inhabitants of the room didn't look like this.
The keypunch room looked like a hippie convention. These
people are entirely too clean cut.

Loading Image...
Loading Image...

Back then, they had a program to allow high-school students
access to the university mainframe.

There were 25 key-punches, but at busy times, there
wasn't a seat left in the house.

Surprisingly, not a lot of students took up the offer.
A good thing I guess. You couldn't bring food in there,
so staying there meant a bit of "suffering" :-)

Paul
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 19:16:03 UTC
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<snip>
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Paul
I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)
I remember one - I think it was Packard Bell - who presented a view of a
hallway, with rooms opening off it.
We don't want to forget MS's Bob! LOL

<snip>
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 19:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Paul
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.
A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure
The articles just shows that what makes sense to one person or group
makes absolutely no sense to another person or group.

Take the graphic of the hierarchy that contains groups of windows. To
me, that display is useless, especially to new users. Took me awhile to
figure that one out.
Post by Paul
Finding your files is like "going down a mine".
That extra bold line you can have in Directory Opus excellently makes
that point obvious., IMO.

My brother-in-law really liked that line when I got him trying out DO.
Made it so simple to understand where the files were being taken from
and moved to.
Post by Paul
It also makes it possible to give a justification
for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying"
a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram,
it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another
without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving
a file up and down within a single inverted tree.
The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the
question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for".
And to answer that, the first GUI people said it
"was the top surface of your desk". Which it really
isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part
of the "story".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor
"The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay
at Xerox PARC in 1970"
I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)
I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use
an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way.
You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff
and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the
explanations now should be a bit milder and easier
to take.
IPL CMS,
Paul
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 18:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've
been down for like 3 days.

Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Post by Ken Springer
At this stage, Total Commander will "totally confuse" this guy. :-)
The concept of the filesystem hierarchy still hasn't sunk in. The
"light bulb" hasn't come on.
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.
Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac,
and would like to do one for Linux someday.

You can see the charts here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=0

For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self
explanatory as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized
paper. I'd appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone
has any.

I got my brother-in-law to try Directory Opus, and we turned on the
feature that
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(He's not dim; I'm quite proud that he's managed to convert most of his
LP collection onto CDs, using mp3directcut to cut sides into tracks, and
so on. He's a retired printer - from hot metal days, but I think would
have used linotype machines, not just hand-layout.)
The guy I'm working with is similar, and I think he may have been beat
down growing up with people telling him he is dumb. As a result, he's
possibly over compensated in areas of life. I haven't heard from him in
a couple of days, so I'm thinking he's finally got a grasp on just the
things he wants to do.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
hierarchy is so much easier to explain when your file manager has
"lines" like XP and older system have. I may end up installing only
(My friend has Vista, which I think still has the lines.)
In XP the lines are optional, in Vista they don't exist. But Classic
Explorer, part of Classic Shell, can show the lines, and I have mine set
that way.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
the Classic Explorer part of Classic Shell, so he has the lines for his
eyes to follow. I've created a simple chart that visually shows the
hierarchy, but laid out as if it was an organizational chart, but I
don't know if he's really looked at it.
That is indeed the problem. You can't give them too much at once, or
they suffer from information overload.
What I tell everyone one, is when what I say starts going over their
head, it's time to quit.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
I'm fairly sure that, at some point, he's going to decide he wants his
music categorized, into R&B, country, soft rock, etc., and that should
be the perfect time to explain the hierarchy.
Could be; good luck.
What _is_ it that makes the hierarchical file/folder system, which is so
obvious to us, so difficult to grasp as a concept to some? I'd really
like to know. My friend, for example, just about knows how to make a new
folder - but I suspect would never think of doing so, or at best would
only ever do so in one or two specific places.
Humans, I think, are basically visual at the core. But if the visual
feed your brain gets doesn't make sense, even that is useless. The
charts display the same thing as the MS file managers, but just laid out
in a way many of us are used to seeing, a simple organizational chart.
Even here, some explanation may be necessary.

For some, the use of color may help. So, if you ad a 3rd party program
like Folder Colorizer, where, say, all folders containing bills are
green, that may make it easier. I haven't tested this as yet.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-05 22:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Springer
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and
they've been down for like 3 days.
Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL
[]
Post by Ken Springer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.
Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac,
and would like to do one for Linux someday.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=>0
For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self
explanatory as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized
paper. I'd appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone
has any.
Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in
conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level,
which you say is what you were trying to convey.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
R.Wieser
2018-03-06 08:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
J. P.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come
in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put
inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other
folders).

*binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which
equate to sectors.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've
been down for like 3 days.
Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL
[]
Post by Ken Springer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.
Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac, and
would like to do one for Linux someday.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=>0
For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self explanatory
as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized paper. I'd
appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone has any.
Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in
conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level,
which you say is what you were trying to convey.
My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
[]
--
Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-06 14:48:13 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
J. P.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come
in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put
inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other
folders).
*binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which
equate to sectors.
[]
Not a bad analogy. I might use it. Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away
from the idea of size altogether - but there's nothing in the real world
that does. Mandelbrot graphics, perhaps, but they're not a common
concept either.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I am entitled to my own opinion."
"Yes, but it's your constant assumption that everyone else is also that's so
annoying." - Vila & Avon
R.Wieser
2018-03-06 16:09:27 UTC
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J. P. ,
Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away from the idea of size altogether -
but there's nothing in the real world that does.
Yes, that was something going thru my mind too. Thats why I suggested
cardboard boxes, as they are quite common, already come in all kinds of
sizes, and are regarded as "just boxes" (read: fully interchangable, even
size wise).

Also, the "plain" was intentional (even if you're not using physical boxes):
when you cannot distinguish the "parent" box from the current one or from a
"child" box (other than by size perhaps) than they tend to blend together in
a persons mind as a single thing, just present multiple times.


But if you want to circumvent the size problem altogether*, why not leave
the real world and enter a magical one ? One where a "bottomless" pouch
exists in which you can put gems (the files) and other pouches (the
folders) - which themselves are ofcourse bottomles too. Will probably go
down well with *at least* the harry potter crowd. :-) (might kick some
(deeply) religious ones against the shins though, so be carefull where you
use it).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-06 16:25:13 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
J. P. ,
Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away from the idea of size altogether -
but there's nothing in the real world that does.
Yes, that was something going thru my mind too. Thats why I suggested
cardboard boxes, as they are quite common, already come in all kinds of
sizes, and are regarded as "just boxes" (read: fully interchangable, even
size wise).
when you cannot distinguish the "parent" box from the current one or from a
"child" box (other than by size perhaps) than they tend to blend together in
a persons mind as a single thing, just present multiple times.
But if you want to circumvent the size problem altogether*, why not leave
the real world and enter a magical one ? One where a "bottomless" pouch
exists in which you can put gems (the files) and other pouches (the
folders) - which themselves are ofcourse bottomles too. Will probably go
down well with *at least* the harry potter crowd. :-) (might kick some
(deeply) religious ones against the shins though, so be carefull where you
use it).
More good thoughts! And pouches within pouches is just as graspable.
Post by R.Wieser
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Did the * after "altogether" link to something you forgot to add (-:?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I
have one. -Cato the Elder, statesman, soldier, and writer (234-149 BCE)
R.Wieser
2018-03-07 07:51:46 UTC
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J.P. ,
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Did the * after "altogether" link to something you forgot to add (-:?
More likely it got removed when I rewrote that sentence ... but forgot to
also remove the marker. :-(

Ah, now I remember. It was about needing to be carefull about your "no size
constraints" request, as most of the this-world storage media are in fact
really quite limited. :-p The cardboard boxes and a transport truck
analogy popped into my mind.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Ken Springer
2018-03-07 22:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R.Wieser
J. P.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come
in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put
inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other
folders).
*binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which
equate to sectors.
GMTA!!! I do a little tutoring on learning the basics of the computer,
and am putting together a "visual aid" for just this. But I'll just use
loose, stapled docs as files rather than having to deal with the bulk of
binders.
Post by R.Wieser
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've
been down for like 3 days.
Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL
[]
Post by Ken Springer
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by Ken Springer
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.
Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac, and
would like to do one for Linux someday.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=>0
For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self explanatory
as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized paper. I'd
appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone has any.
Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in
conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level,
which you say is what you were trying to convey.
My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
[]
--
Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
R.Wieser
2018-03-08 07:52:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Ken,
Post by Ken Springer
GMTA!!! I do a little tutoring on learning the basics of the computer,
and am putting together a "visual aid" for just this.
Pretty much the same here, though directed at kids wanting to write
programs. I've never actually made something like that to actually *look*
at though, mostly trying to get them to visualize it was enough.
Post by Ken Springer
But I'll just use loose, stapled docs as files rather than having to deal
with the bulk of binders.
I myself like the concept of binders: You identify the containing papers by
the name on the front of the binder, and (normally) can replace that name
without messing with the contents. It also allows you to easily replace a
sheet anywhere you like. The binder itself also represents the sector
linkage list as present in the FAT. When you lose it the sheets are still
there, but will be hard to find back and handle.

... than again, I tended to explain the whole drive format structure. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Post by Ken Springer
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
"I'm aging like fine wine: I'm getting fruitier and more complex"
Ken Springer
2018-03-08 09:47:08 UTC
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Raw Message
Rudy,
... than again, I tended to explain the whole drive format structure.:-)
Similar to what I drew out in the link I provided in another message, or
even more in depth?
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
R.Wieser
2018-03-08 10:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Ken,
Post by Ken Springer
Similar to what I drew out in the link I provided in another message, or
even more in depth?
Well, I've got little to go on to be certain about that. All you (seem to)
have said about it is "But I'll just use loose, stapled docs as files rather
than having to deal with the bulk of binders." ...

But there certainly is a possibility. At some point I often explained the
functioning of the BR, partitions and the MBR too (mostly as a result of the
advice to keep the OS and the users own data on seperate "drives").
Sometimes the act of data recovery (undeleting files) also came in to take a
bow, and with it how you can have all the data/sectors, but due to the loss
of the "binders" cannot access it in any meaningfull way anymore (quick
format).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Wolf K
2018-03-08 14:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-08 02:52, R.Wieser wrote:
[...]
Post by R.Wieser
I myself like the concept of binders: You identify the containing papers by
the name on the front of the binder, and (normally) can replace that name
without messing with the contents. It also allows you to easily replace a
sheet anywhere you like. The binder itself also represents the sector
linkage list as present in the FAT. When you lose it the sheets are still
there, but will be hard to find back and handle.
... than again, I tended to explain the whole drive format structure.:-)
[...]

Nice analogy. Mind if I steal it? :-)
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
R.Wieser
2018-03-08 14:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Wolf,
Post by Wolf K
Nice analogy. Mind if I steal it? :-)
... Damn! I know I forgot something: To copyright it so noone can use it
in my lifetime +70 years (IIRC).

But go ahead ofcourse. Thank you for mentioning you find it good enough to
use. Always nice to hear. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Ken Blake
2018-03-02 16:38:42 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Post by Bob_S
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you
want
in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
ROFL
Ken,
See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The
SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page
https://www.ghisler.com/
Total Commander is a good choice. I used it for a while and liked it a
lot.

But even better, as far as I'm concerned, is Directory Opus
(https://www.gpsoft.com.au/), which is what I now use. Unfortunately
it's not free, but it's worth the cost ($89 AUD) to me.
Ken Springer
2018-03-04 19:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Bob_S
Post by Bob_S
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you
want
in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
ROFL
Ken,
See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The
SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page
https://www.ghisler.com/
Total Commander is a good choice. I used it for a while and liked it a
lot.
But even better, as far as I'm concerned, is Directory Opus
(https://www.gpsoft.com.au/), which is what I now use. Unfortunately
it's not free, but it's worth the cost ($89 AUD) to me.
I've looked at a lot of the options out there, and agree about DO. But
for my immediate purpose, it's overkill.

There is one place where I think the old File Manager from Windows For
Workgroups excels. There is a bar above the panes that has an icon for
each individual drive/partition. That makes it easier to explain drives
and especially partitions. In fact, for very basic instructions for
newbies, you can ignore the partition idea anyway. It would just go
over their heads.

A couple of the alternative file managers have those icons, but I don't
remember seeing any connecting lines in the panes. And, they were
overly complex for my goal/need in looking for something else.

Sometimes, the simple answer is the best, and at time we tend to ignore
simplicity.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
Mayayana
2018-03-02 14:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Bob_S" <***@here.com> wrote

| > What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
| >different folders, opening next to each other, one
| >on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
| >position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
| >
|
| That's what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at
the
| same time....
|

I know the feeling. Sometimes one
just needs to get up, eat something,
and maybe take a walk. :)
Ken Blake
2018-03-02 16:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bob_S
Post by Mayayana
| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you want in
| the Target window.
|
What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.
That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at the
same time....
As long as you're not also chewing gum... <G>
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