Discussion:
Buying Windows 7
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Ed Cryer
2018-07-05 17:36:00 UTC
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I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!

This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4

Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?

Ed
Big Al
2018-07-05 20:28:22 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Do you own a copy of Windows 7 already but don't have the CD? The ISO
is readily available for free, all you need is the CD Key from your old
windows 7. You never gave any info how you got win 10, I'm guessing an
upgrade from 7 or you got the machine that way.

One big issue with going from 10 to 7 on a preloaded machine is drivers.
Investigate that first. No drivers=No workie!

Me personally, I'm not secure with these sites selling $10 copies of
OSs. They could be valid from trashed PCs.

I always shop places like Newegg.com in the US.
Big Al
2018-07-05 20:37:00 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Do you own a copy of Windows 7 already but don't have the CD?  The ISO
is readily available for free, all you need is the CD Key from your old
windows 7.   You never gave any info how you got win 10, I'm guessing an
upgrade from 7 or you got the machine that way.
One big issue with going from 10 to 7 on a preloaded machine is drivers.
 Investigate that first.   No drivers=No workie!
Me personally, I'm not secure with these sites selling $10 copies of
OSs.  They could be valid from trashed PCs.
I always shop places like Newegg.com in the US.
Ebay has a lot of them. I question a few of them after reading them,
they may be OEM and from one experience with OEM, it only works on the
PC it was installed on. Moving to another PC does not work as it looks
at the motherboard and verifies it's on the right machine. Dell is
famous for that.
Ken Blake
2018-07-05 21:10:07 UTC
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Post by Big Al
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Do you own a copy of Windows 7 already but don't have the CD?  The ISO
is readily available for free, all you need is the CD Key from your old
windows 7.   You never gave any info how you got win 10, I'm guessing an
upgrade from 7 or you got the machine that way.
One big issue with going from 10 to 7 on a preloaded machine is drivers.
 Investigate that first.   No drivers=No workie!
Me personally, I'm not secure with these sites selling $10 copies of
OSs.  They could be valid from trashed PCs.
I always shop places like Newegg.com in the US.
Ebay has a lot of them. I question a few of them after reading them,
they may be OEM and from one experience with OEM, it only works on the
PC it was installed on. Moving to another PC does not work as it looks
at the motherboard and verifies it's on the right machine. Dell is
famous for that.
It's not just one experience and it's not just Dell. That's
Microsoft's rule. An OEM copy is licensed for use only on the
original computer it was installed on, and it may not be moved to
another one. And Microsoft considers that if you change the
motherboard, it's a different computer.

One might argue that since the OEM sticker with the product key is
affixed to the computer's case, it's the case that defines the
original computer, and you should be able to continue to use the OEM
copy if you change everything within the case, as long as you keep the
case. But I wouldn't want to fight Microsoft in court.
VanguardLH
2018-07-05 21:42:10 UTC
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Post by Big Al
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Do you own a copy of Windows 7 already but don't have the CD?  The ISO
is readily available for free, all you need is the CD Key from your old
windows 7.   You never gave any info how you got win 10, I'm guessing an
upgrade from 7 or you got the machine that way.
One big issue with going from 10 to 7 on a preloaded machine is drivers.
 Investigate that first.   No drivers=No workie!
Me personally, I'm not secure with these sites selling $10 copies of
OSs.  They could be valid from trashed PCs.
I always shop places like Newegg.com in the US.
Ebay has a lot of them. I question a few of them after reading them,
they may be OEM and from one experience with OEM, it only works on the
PC it was installed on. Moving to another PC does not work as it looks
at the motherboard and verifies it's on the right machine. Dell is
famous for that.
A lot of those at eBay are Dell restore CDs. They're invalid for use on
anything other than a Dell but the sellers don't care and don't ask on
what computer those Dell-only restore CDs (OEM installs) will get used.
The usual excuse by the seller is they are selling media, not a license.
You still need a valid license to use the restore media. However, a
restore CD that notes "Dell Only" likely has usage restrictions from
Dell that it can only be used to restore a Dell computer, not just any
computer.

How do you know you want Windows 7 unless you have used Windows 7? Are
you going *back* to Windows 7? If so, where's your old license key for
Windows 7?

The product key shown on a sticker on the case is for a volume image of
the OS that gets copied onto thousands of computers by the OEM'er. They
don't validate every computer they manufacture. They copy an image
(fixed) onto each computer. They get to use the volume license. You do
not, so the product key shown on the sticker may not be valid for use by
you. Use something like Magic Jellybean or Belarc Advisor to get the
Windows 7 license key out of that instance of an install. That's the
one you get to reuse. You don't get to change from Home to Pro with
that license key. You'll have to get the same edition when getting the
install media as for what is applicable for the license.

Some eBay sellers are selling just the installation media (CD). That
means you still need a license key to use the OS. Some are selling just
the key and you must already have the installation media.

At one time, Microsoft had their own site to download the install ISO
files (that you burned onto a CD). I think Digital River was hosting
the ISO downloads. That's why anyone can distribute the installation
media; however, for the privilege you get to pay them for the
installation media or image when it used to be free from Microsoft.
This is like those places that will sell you gov't information that you
can get for free from the gov't.

Ooh, look what I found (as a URL link when I got the ISO image from
Microsoft):

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows7

You'll still need a legitimate product/license key. It is unclear if
you want to go back to Windows 7 you had before or you would be going to
a new OS that happens to be an older version of what you got stuck with
on a new pre-built (Windows 10).
Char Jackson
2018-07-06 16:20:44 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
The product key shown on a sticker on the case is for a volume image of
the OS that gets copied onto thousands of computers by the OEM'er. They
don't validate every computer they manufacture. They copy an image
(fixed) onto each computer. They get to use the volume license. You do
not, so the product key shown on the sticker may not be valid for use by
you. Use something like Magic Jellybean or Belarc Advisor to get the
Windows 7 license key out of that instance of an install. That's the
one you get to reuse.
My Dell laptop was the other way around. The Windows key on the sticker
was my unique key. Belarc reported the generic Dell key.
--
Char Jackson
VanguardLH
2018-07-07 19:17:31 UTC
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Post by Char Jackson
Post by VanguardLH
The product key shown on a sticker on the case is for a volume image of
the OS that gets copied onto thousands of computers by the OEM'er. They
don't validate every computer they manufacture. They copy an image
(fixed) onto each computer. They get to use the volume license. You do
not, so the product key shown on the sticker may not be valid for use by
you. Use something like Magic Jellybean or Belarc Advisor to get the
Windows 7 license key out of that instance of an install. That's the
one you get to reuse.
My Dell laptop was the other way around. The Windows key on the sticker
was my unique key. Belarc reported the generic Dell key.
Oops, yep, the other way around. The image is the same that gets puts
on thousands of computers so it has the pre-validated volume key. The
stickers get printed with different keys on them. The sticker won't
match the key in the image.

I need stronger coffee, or less interruptions.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-07 19:31:16 UTC
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In message <vnt31g3mb8m4$***@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <***@nguard.LH>
writes:
[]
Post by VanguardLH
I need stronger coffee, or less interruptions.
Fewer. (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Her [Valerie Singleton's] main job on /Blue Peter/ was to stop unpredictable
creatres running amok. And that was just John Noakes.
- Alison Pearson, RT 2014/9/6-12
Ken Blake
2018-07-07 23:08:14 UTC
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On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 20:31:16 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
[]
Post by VanguardLH
I need stronger coffee, or less interruptions.
Took the word of my fingers. <g>
Char Jackson
2018-07-07 23:43:00 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Char Jackson
Post by VanguardLH
The product key shown on a sticker on the case is for a volume image of
the OS that gets copied onto thousands of computers by the OEM'er. They
don't validate every computer they manufacture. They copy an image
(fixed) onto each computer. They get to use the volume license. You do
not, so the product key shown on the sticker may not be valid for use by
you. Use something like Magic Jellybean or Belarc Advisor to get the
Windows 7 license key out of that instance of an install. That's the
one you get to reuse.
My Dell laptop was the other way around. The Windows key on the sticker
was my unique key. Belarc reported the generic Dell key.
Oops, yep, the other way around. The image is the same that gets puts
on thousands of computers so it has the pre-validated volume key. The
stickers get printed with different keys on them. The sticker won't
match the key in the image.
I just thought I had an oddball PC here. :)
--
Char Jackson
Paul
2018-07-05 21:15:15 UTC
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Post by Big Al
One big issue with going from 10 to 7 on a preloaded machine is drivers.
Investigate that first. No drivers=No workie!
That's a good point.

If the box had a Skylake processor, chances are there
won't be a problem getting the core drivers.

Microsoft may try to disable Windows Update if the
box uses Kaby Lake processor. Someone made a workaround
for that. It's not clear whether the Microsoft trick
is consistent with Coffee Lake or not.

With the OS installed but not activated, you have
a 30 day grace period to work with, so could do your
testing and tweaking before committing to a license key.

Paul
Paul
2018-07-05 20:56:55 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
So that outfit just sends you a key ?

Can you chop up an MSDN Subscription and make
license keys that cheaply ? That's what we'd
want to know. There has to be some lower limit
where they stop making money.

The license keys might be "valid", but the usage
of the keys in this way might violate the terms
of usage. It's just hard to police.

And since there's hardly any web-based means
of vetting keys, you can't even enter the key
you buy, and have it tell you "MSDN Key"
or the like. No way to tell the parentage.

The key likely isn't a VLK (Volume License Key).

And I don't know of a way to make license keys,
other than MSDN Subscription. It's the most
credible mechanism I've heard of. If a
corporation receives a Dell at shipping and receiving,
there's no license they can recycle there. It's
not like these somehow derive from installing
corporate images on bulk-purchase PCs.

And you know these license keys never started
life in boxed software. As the proprietor would
lose their shirt if doing it that way. They'd be
selling well below their cost.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-07-05 22:17:26 UTC
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"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote
| Can you chop up an MSDN Subscription and make
| license keys that cheaply ? That's what we'd
| want to know. There has to be some lower limit
| where they stop making money.

MSDN license is not valid. It technically only
gives one the right to test software.

The page says the keys are coming from
"decommissioned PCs". That's also not valid
except with the full license. Not with OEM.
In other words, a full license can be resold but
OEM cannot.

It can be valid if it's an unused/unsold key.
Dell, HP, etc have always sold leftover disks/
licenses and that's perfectly legal. It gets a bit
sticky as to whether you have a right to act as
an OEM. I think they officially made that legal at
one point and then reneged. But I've never heard
of them acting on any claim that it's not legal.

This Amazon ad is selling Pro OEM for $200.

https://www.amazon.com/Windows-Professional-System-Builder-Packaging/dp/B00H09BOXQ

I'd expect Home to be maybe $100 or $120 in that
case. (Pro really is a waste of money.)
Maybe there are cheaper options, but $15
pounds sounds fishy to me.
Paul
2018-07-05 23:43:52 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| Can you chop up an MSDN Subscription and make
| license keys that cheaply ? That's what we'd
| want to know. There has to be some lower limit
| where they stop making money.
MSDN license is not valid. It technically only
gives one the right to test software.
The page says the keys are coming from
"decommissioned PCs". That's also not valid
except with the full license. Not with OEM.
In other words, a full license can be resold but
OEM cannot.
It can be valid if it's an unused/unsold key.
Dell, HP, etc have always sold leftover disks/
licenses and that's perfectly legal. It gets a bit
sticky as to whether you have a right to act as
an OEM. I think they officially made that legal at
one point and then reneged. But I've never heard
of them acting on any claim that it's not legal.
This Amazon ad is selling Pro OEM for $200.
https://www.amazon.com/Windows-Professional-System-Builder-Packaging/dp/B00H09BOXQ
I'd expect Home to be maybe $100 or $120 in that
case. (Pro really is a waste of money.)
Maybe there are cheaper options, but $15
pounds sounds fishy to me.
On Windows 7, you buy Pro for the memory license.

More modern Windows SKUs aren't as much of a problem.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/Memory/memory-limits-for-windows-releases#physical_memory_limits_windows_7

Version x86 x64

Windows 7 Ultimate 4 GB 192 GB
Windows 7 Enterprise 4 GB 192 GB
Windows 7 Professional 4 GB 192 GB
Windows 7 Home Premium 4 GB 16 GB <=== 32GB machine needs better license
Windows 7 Home Basic 4 GB 8 GB
Windows 7 Starter 2 GB 2 GB

It's still relatively difficult to get >128GB on
a so-called desktop or workstation. ThreadRipper
could have supported 1TB, but they dumbed it down
to 8x16GB as far as I know. This prevents desktop
motherboards from encroaching on lucrative server
motherboard space.

Paul
Mayayana
2018-07-06 00:21:14 UTC
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"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote

| On Windows 7, you buy Pro for the memory license.
|
Maybe you do. I have Win7-64 that I've used a couple
of times for audio editing, but I think even that only
has 8 GB RAM, and it's been fine. I normally do fine
with 4 GB and can't imagine why I'd ever need 16.

I do actually have 16 on my XP box because that
was what was available, but of course there's only
about 3.4 GB accessible. The only time I come close
to the limit is with something like numerous levels
of undo when editing a very big image.
Paul in Houston TX
2018-07-05 22:23:07 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Real cd's and keys are going for ~$200 USD from reputable sites.
Fake ones usually go for a lot less.
Paul
2018-07-05 22:59:56 UTC
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Post by Paul in Houston TX
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Real cd's and keys are going for ~$200 USD from reputable sites.
Fake ones usually go for a lot less.
The cheapest key is "Daz Loader" :-\

Paul
Paul in Houston TX
2018-07-05 23:20:10 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by Paul in Houston TX
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Real cd's and keys are going for ~$200 USD from reputable sites.
Fake ones usually go for a lot less.
The cheapest key is "Daz Loader" :-\
Paul
;)
slate_leeper
2018-07-06 13:28:06 UTC
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Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
Me too!

My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.

Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.

Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.

-dan z-
--
Someone who thinks logically provides
a nice contrast to the real world.
(Anonymous)
Heirloom
2018-07-06 13:56:16 UTC
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Post by slate_leeper
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
Me too!
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
-dan z-
Have you tried contacting Dell?
slate_leeper
2018-07-07 11:57:53 UTC
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Post by Heirloom
Post by slate_leeper
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
Me too!
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
-dan z-
Have you tried contacting Dell?
Dell support has been no help on this. Their SupportAssist system
won't run because it is in the Program Files directory AND they asked
me to update it (which of course didn't work except to make it no
longer work at all.)

Besides, their support is on the Win-10 that came with it, not the
Win-7 I want to put on it.

-dan z-
--
Someone who thinks logically provides
a nice contrast to the real world.
(Anonymous)
Heirloom
2018-07-07 12:23:31 UTC
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Post by slate_leeper
Post by Heirloom
Post by slate_leeper
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
Me too!
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
-dan z-
Have you tried contacting Dell?
Dell support has been no help on this. Their SupportAssist system
won't run because it is in the Program Files directory AND they asked
me to update it (which of course didn't work except to make it no
longer work at all.)
Besides, their support is on the Win-10 that came with it, not the
Win-7 I want to put on it.
-dan z-
Did you ask them if they would sell you Win 7?
mike
2018-07-09 02:20:44 UTC
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Post by slate_leeper
Post by Heirloom
Post by slate_leeper
Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
Me too!
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
I have no idea what I'm doin', so wait for one of the experts to
weigh in on this before you do anything.

There are two issues here.
What can you do?
What is legal/ethical?

I'll address only the first.

What I'd do is install win7 from the digital river
win7 generic install disk. That's by far the least
stressful. I haven't looked for one lately, but
they are likely available somewhere, but malware
is always a risk.

If you don't have access to a working win7 install disk...

Here's what I'd try.

If you have hundreds of gigabytes of stuff
(movies/music/databases/etc) on C:, this will
take a lot of offline storage. You can temporarily
move that stuff to offline storage, but you risk
screwing up anything you touch...stuff happens.

Backup your win10 system with macrium.
I use the menu option to "create an image of the partitions
required to backup and restore windows.
If you have other partitions, don't include them.
Just create the partitions and copy the data when everything else is done.
Save all your win10 drivers with DoubleDriver.
Save all this elsewhere.

On the win10 system, go into device manager
and write down all the vendor and device numbers
for your display and lan drivers. Wouldn't hurt
to do the same for other non-standard stuff like
card readers and bluetooth and and and.

Search the web for those vendor/device numbers
to see what win7 drivers are available and download them.
The most critical is the lan driver. You can't easily
install stuff if the lan ain't workin'.
I assume that the display will work in degraded mode.
If not, you're screwed.

DISCONNECT ALL YOUR NETWORK CABLES BOTH COMPUTERS!!!

Backup/image your win7 system with macrium.
Put a new drive in your win7 system.
Put the original win7 drive somewhere where you can't
accidentally grab it.
Macrium restore the win7 image you just made to the
new drive.
Boot the system and
sysprep the win7 system.
Backup the sysprepped win7 using the macrium rescue media.
Save the backup elsewhere.
Do not allow it to reboot.

Remove the hard drive from your win10 system and save
it somewhere you can't accidentally grab it.

Take the drive out of the win7 system and put it into the
win10 system.
At this point, you'll have the two original drives from
win7 and win10 in a safe place so you can't mess them up.

Boot the original win10 system with the sysprepped win7 hard drive.
It will go through the install menus and hopefully boot.

That should give you a working win7 system with some
activation grace period. Mine usually says 3 days,
but it also seems to depend on the number of times
you reboot it. I've had it lock up/expire in less than a day
if I rebooted a lot.

You have the grace period to look for drivers and decide if
it will work for you.

First place I'd look for missing drivers is the set you downloaded earlier
when you searched for drivers by ven/dev numbers. Then try the
DoubleDriver backup
you made from win10. Try vendor sites. Try win7 update.
I'd avoid any web site that
wants to install a program to assist you in keeping your drivers
up to date. Stated another way, never trust any site that
insists you install anything before you get the driver.
...AKA almost all of them. Watch the links that push buttons call.
Just cuz the box says "download" doesn't mean that it's downloading
an actual driver. There are far more
shady driver sites than trustworthy ones.

Note that any application that required a license key will not work.
Sometimes, you can re-enter the license key. Sometimes
you'd have to reinstall the app.
The app may or may not reinstall depending on whether they
kept records of your original install. In extreme cases,
your original win7 machine might have software invalidated
if you move it.

Use DoubleDriver to backup all your drivers at regular intervals.
You never know when the grace period will expire and you lose
everything. Keep a meticulous log of all the experiments.

ARCHIVE THE SYSPREPPED WIN7 BACKUP. YOU NEVER KNOW
WHEN IT MIGHT COME IN HANDY. If you make your macrium recovery
disk on a flash drive, you can even archive the sysprep to
that drive.

At some point, you're gonna have to decide if win7 works for
you on that computer.
If not, you're done.

DO NOT TRY TO ACTIVATE THE NEW SYSTEM WITH YOUR OLD KEY.
It may or may not work. It may or may not invalidate your
original system.
If you want to keep it, you move into legal territory.

There are easy/reliable ways to activate your win7 system. Some have
been mentioned already in this thread. That's your call.

If you purchase a win7 key, there's no way to tell whether
it will activate your particular installation. No way to tell if
it will activate any version installed from media obtained elsewhere.
No way to tell if
it's a legal/compliant key that MS won't invalidate in the future.

I've tried to accurately describe what I've done in the past.
My memory ain't what it used to be. I may have made a mistake.
There are a lot of moving parts. I've tried to describe a
sequence that has low risk of wrecking either or both systems.
You still have both the original hard drives.
If you try to skip steps, or do it without a third hard drive,
you risk bricking everything.


Again, wait for the experts to comment before you mess things up.

Are we having fun yet?
Post by slate_leeper
Post by Heirloom
Post by slate_leeper
-dan z-
Have you tried contacting Dell?
Dell support has been no help on this. Their SupportAssist system
won't run because it is in the Program Files directory AND they asked
me to update it (which of course didn't work except to make it no
longer work at all.)
Besides, their support is on the Win-10 that came with it, not the
Win-7 I want to put on it.
-dan z-
KenW
2018-07-09 02:29:07 UTC
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If Dell does not have Windows 7 drivers for your hardware, you are
stuck.


KenW
mike
2018-07-09 03:04:41 UTC
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Post by KenW
If Dell does not have Windows 7 drivers for your hardware, you are
stuck.
KenW
That's pessimistic.
Hardware vendor drivers sometimes exist.
KenW
2018-07-09 03:21:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by mike
Post by KenW
If Dell does not have Windows 7 drivers for your hardware, you are
stuck.
KenW
That's pessimistic.
Hardware vendor drivers sometimes exist.
Believe what you wish. Dell does their own thing with drivers
(modifications) and many drivers from hardware manufactures will not
work on Dell computers. Just went through that on my Dell.


KenW
Paul
2018-07-09 04:37:43 UTC
Reply
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Post by KenW
Post by mike
Post by KenW
If Dell does not have Windows 7 drivers for your hardware, you are
stuck.
KenW
That's pessimistic.
Hardware vendor drivers sometimes exist.
Believe what you wish. Dell does their own thing with drivers
(modifications) and many drivers from hardware manufactures will not
work on Dell computers. Just went through that on my Dell.
KenW
The register level specification is only available to the
hardware manufacturer.

An OEM computer maker may re-arrange or re-package materials
they received from the hardware manufacturer.

For example, take a laptop video driver. The panel comes off
a "digital bus" connection, perhaps LVDS. The panel has a
certain size. The system needs VESA information so that
the OS can find the screen. Some products have a low res
and a high res variant, and the software materials have to
match the setup. In such a situation, the OEM computer
maker adds the necessary file to some software. And this
is necessary, because the "panel" isn't actually PNP. The
declarative software added to the package takes care of that.

If the laptop panel had a hidden internal VGA connector, and
the GPU had a VGA output, the two could be plugged together
to make a PNP solution. Any driver would then be "bog standard".
This is why desktop video cards with VGA and HDMI connectors
work so well = they fully support PNP, without tricks.

For something like Wifi, there might be firmware, and
firmware versions.

But some other driver types, would be bog standard, and
no amount of splash graphic in the installer will change
that. If my computer has an Asmedia two port SATA, that'll be
a bog standard driver.

*******

Microsoft has a great deal of leverage in this situation.
If they want to strong-arm the hardware companies to not
provide drivers for Windows 7, they seem to have some
licensing terms (maybe for the "driver kit" that tells
the hardware people how to make a driver), that give
leverage. For example, no manufacturer is allowed to
release their own USB2 or USB3 driver, for... Windows 10.
When ever Microsoft finished the Class driver for a
hardware standard, that's generally where the licensing
cuts in and stops individual driver releases.

Intel likes to "shave the edges" of this situation, by
providing a USB driver. But, about ten lines into the
file, you find

#include <usbport.inf>

which means basically "call the Microsoft driver and
have Microsoft finish this please". The only thing the
file actually does, is set a text string in Device Manager.

It's my feeling, that Microsoft has used their licensing
leverage, to stop driver support for Win7.

Just as, in the case of the Microsoft attempt to do an
x86 to ARM translator, Intel threatened to send the
lawyer clown car. And so far this year, no Microsoft
ARM based product has appeared with a 32 bit x86 run
capability (I'm still waiting for a "battle royale" :-) ).
So that's an example of the "vice versa", where Microsoft
wanted something, and Intel told them to fuck off.
For some strange reason, you'll notice over the years,
that Apple hasn't had too much trouble accommodating
two instruction sets during transition periods.
One presumes either the limited duration of the
transition period, or some cash, quieted up such
a situation. I think one of their solutions
was done by Transitive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_Corporation

"This technology was also licensed by Apple Computer
in its transition from PowerPC to Intel (x86) CPUs,
starting in 2006. Apple marketed this technology as
"Rosetta".
"

I don't remember IBM or Motorola threatening Apple...

Paul
Mayayana
2018-07-09 11:41:07 UTC
Reply
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"Paul" <***@needed.invalid> wrote

| It's my feeling, that Microsoft has used their licensing
| leverage, to stop driver support for Win7.
|

That may be, but hardware companies can vary a lot.
A few years ago I wanted drivers for an MSI board. MSI
said they no longer supported my system. I then went to
Via, the chipset maker. They had a single download that
supported all then-current systems. MSI was either
incompetent or sleazy. I doubt it was due to any outside
influence.

Dell does do extensive repackaging of drivers and may
sometimes have hardware specific to their product. It
might not be possible to be certain of getting drivers that
will work. That's why I was saying above that it's a
good idea to avoid Dell altogether.
Paul
2018-07-10 02:44:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mayayana
| It's my feeling, that Microsoft has used their licensing
| leverage, to stop driver support for Win7.
|
That may be, but hardware companies can vary a lot.
A few years ago I wanted drivers for an MSI board. MSI
said they no longer supported my system. I then went to
Via, the chipset maker. They had a single download that
supported all then-current systems. MSI was either
incompetent or sleazy. I doubt it was due to any outside
influence.
Dell does do extensive repackaging of drivers and may
sometimes have hardware specific to their product. It
might not be possible to be certain of getting drivers that
will work. That's why I was saying above that it's a
good idea to avoid Dell altogether.
If you want some real fun with drivers, take an
Analog Devices sound chip as an example.

The default support from Analog Devices is a year or two.
So if in the year 2003, an AD sound chip goes on a P5E
motherboard, the clock starts ticking.

Maybe around the end of 2004, your busted AD driver
still isn't working right. (There used to be a popping
sound every ten minutes or so. Like an underrun or overrun.)

Now, say in the year 2006, Asus makes another motherboard,
that happens to use the same AD chip. Bingo, another year
or two of drivers. If you're good with Google, maybe you
discover the P6X uses a driver that you can re-use
pn your P5E. The bus identifiers at the hardware level,
aren't a factor of the motherboard model number, and
so two motherboards separated in time like that,
can "partner" on drivers.

OK, your Asus well is running dry. Your AD chip still
makes the popping sound. *Now*, you start datamining
the HP and Dell sites. As they seem to be paying for
slightly longer support than Asus does. It's still the
same chip, only the four digit revision is a lot higher.

I had loads of fun with that sound chip. I chased after
drivers high and low. You have to be a creative
Googler, if you "expect the very best" in drivers.

Paul
Paul
2018-07-09 02:38:46 UTC
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Post by mike
What I'd do is install win7 from the digital river
win7 generic install disk. That's by far the least
stressful. I haven't looked for one lately, but
they are likely available somewhere, but malware
is always a risk.
DigitalRiver as a source, dried up several years ago.

Heidoc (URL Generator) generates a Windows 7 URL so
you can fetch the file from TechBench. Microsoft only
allows people with Retail license keys, to download
a Win7 ISO. Using the Heidoc facility, it will give
you a URL valid for 24 hours, and the download site
is actually Microsoft. At the current time, the Heidoc
developer is running in "hobbled" mode. Microsoft has
thrown up a road block, and the "rate" that URLs can be
generated is now strictly limited. It means, if using
the Heidoc tool today, you may have to wait a bit for
it to work out a URL. In the past, it worked instantly.
The Heidoc tool is tailor made for the Dell or HP
users of the world (the ones where the COA isn't worth
anything for this purpose of downloading media).

Since Heidoc doesn't store the file, and the file
comes from Microsoft, it should be good to go.

Paul
VanguardLH
2018-07-06 15:29:19 UTC
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Post by slate_leeper
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
Lots of online articles about changing the license key for an existing
installation. You would copy your backup image to the other computer
and then change its license key to a legitimately purchased one.

https://www.lifewire.com/how-do-i-change-my-windows-product-key-2624930

Just in case, make sure you save a backup image of your Windows 10 setup
should you decide to move back to it.
slate_leeper
2018-07-07 12:12:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by slate_leeper
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
Lots of online articles about changing the license key for an existing
installation. You would copy your backup image to the other computer
and then change its license key to a legitimately purchased one.
https://www.lifewire.com/how-do-i-change-my-windows-product-key-2624930
Just in case, make sure you save a backup image of your Windows 10 setup
should you decide to move back to it.
Thank you for that info. It's the "legitimately purchased one" I
really need more info on. How can I directly ask MS this question?
Will they sell me one?

-dan z-
--
Someone who thinks logically provides
a nice contrast to the real world.
(Anonymous)
Mayayana
2018-07-07 13:12:24 UTC
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"slate_leeper" <bycy-***@spamex.com> wrote

| Thank you for that info. It's the "legitimately purchased one" I
| really need more info on. How can I directly ask MS this question?
| Will they sell me one?
|

MS no longer sells Win7. The available sources
are mostly OEMs that have leftover disks/licenses
that they bought in bulk. You should be able to
use one of those, but you'd need to carefully research
the hardware to make sure you can get drivers
for Win7: Determine exactly what you have for
motherboard, sound, graphics, etc and then check
with those companies for Win7 drivers.

The problem with Dell, and the reason that it's
not a good idea to buy Dell products, is that they
package the whole system, making it opaque. On
the one hand, if you're in business and only use
Dell, getting a supported driver for a Dell product
is a convenient process. It's like the AOL of OEMs.
They hide the facts from you, but you also don't
need to know the facts as long as you tay with
their system.

But in your case the
downside of their system becomes clear. Since
all the drivers are repackaged by Dell, it's not
always feasible to cut out the Dell middleman and
get the real driver directly from the hardware maker.
In some cases, Dell parts might be custom-order,
not existing on the open market. And their driver
downloads are custom-wrapped versions of the
actual drivers. Just as Home Depot
might order 5 million drills from DeWalt and be selling
model DW385002 while DeWalt doesn't actually
acknowledge the existence of that model. They
make 5000, 5001 and 5005. Will a replacement part
fit 5002? Probably. But there's no way to be sure
of exactly what's different. In the same way that
Home Depot now supports (or doesn't) model 5002,
Dell makes you go to them for hardware support.
VanguardLH
2018-07-07 19:21:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by slate_leeper
Post by VanguardLH
Post by slate_leeper
My Win-7 was purchased as an OEM installation CD from Amazon. I bought
it legally, and have the CD. I installed it on my new (then) ASUS and
it works just fine.
Win-10 on my new Dell is a disaster. I would love to install my
much-customized Win-7 on it via restoring a disk image from the ASUS.
However I am sure that will result in an "unlicensed" installation.
Is there any way I can license it? I would be happy to pay MS for
another license for the Dell.
Lots of online articles about changing the license key for an existing
installation. You would copy your backup image to the other computer
and then change its license key to a legitimately purchased one.
https://www.lifewire.com/how-do-i-change-my-windows-product-key-2624930
Just in case, make sure you save a backup image of your Windows 10 setup
should you decide to move back to it.
Thank you for that info. It's the "legitimately purchased one" I
really need more info on. How can I directly ask MS this question?
Will they sell me one?
You buy the key-only products from resellers, like those at Amazon or
eBay. I'd probably use eBay due to their buyer guarantee but after
researching the sellers and their histories.

As others have warned, make DAMN SURE you can get the drivers for your
hardware (motherboard, video card, printer, etc) BEFORE you switch to an
old OS. Many pre-builts are designed for a minimum version of the OS.
They don't provide drivers for older OS versions, especially for
unsupported older OS versions. Take an inventory of all your hardware.
Then start hunting around for were to find drivers for all that hardware
whether it be internal or external to the computer's case.
Ed Cryer
2018-07-06 18:30:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ed Cryer
I'm fed up with Windows 10 on a machine I bought.
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
Has anybody bought this? Or does anyone know a better place?
Ed
Thanks for all your comments. They seem very wise to me, and I'll heed them.
My main computer of choice runs under Win7. And it is stable, very
stable; it's been stable for years, never throws a wobbly, does what it
should and very pleasingly. It also runs some pretty modern hardware; a
bluray writer, a 4TB powered external HD, large memory sticks.
Viva Windows 7!

Ed
(PeteCresswell)
2018-07-11 15:00:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ed Cryer
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers
sell "Bad" copies of 7.

i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime
later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly
committing suicide until you supply a valid key.

Been there, done that.

Can't recall where I got my "Good" (so far....) copy, but it was one of the
big-name retailers like B&H or NewEgg.
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
2018-07-11 15:22:05 UTC
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Post by (PeteCresswell)
Can't recall where I got my "Good" (so far....) copy, but it was one of the
big-name retailers like B&H or NewEgg.
It was B&H.

One caution: my copy came with a sort of "Scatch-and-Sniff" covering over the
license key and I managed to render the key unreadable in my attempt to
uncover it.

But B&H humored me, issued an RMA, and I was able to get another copy.
--
Pete Cresswell
VanguardLH
2018-07-11 18:37:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Ed Cryer
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers
sell "Bad" copies of 7.
i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime
later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly
committing suicide until you supply a valid key.
Been there, done that.
Me, too. Bought Office 2013 from an eBay seller. The key worked (got
the ISO from Microsoft). About a month later, I noticed eBay had
refunded the purchase. I didn't ask them for that. The key worked for
about 3 years at which time I found out why eBay refunded me. It was a
sliced key out of a volume license and Microsoft had invalidated the
license when they discovered the pirate. The seller disappeared from
eBay (probably started a new identity there). Windows updates had no
problem.

It was when I did a fresh install of the OS and then tried to install
Office 2013 that the key got rejected. I don't remember how but that's
when I checked the key against someplace at Microsoft to find out it was
one seat from a volume license (all seats are to remain within the
custody of the organization that got the volume license). Oh well, time
to upgrade to Office 365 (but I spent a couple months trialing
alternatives before deciding to get Office again).

I got 3 1-year subscriptions to run consecutively from another eBay
seller who I required send me the keys via e-mail (instead of wait for
the license cards by postal mail) immediately after my eBay purchase was
authorized, tested them (and that I got 3 years of subscription), and
checked with Microsoft that they were good. I did not want to wait for
the license cards to arrive in the mail before I could check they
worked.

I have used the Buyer Protection at eBay about 3 times: once for a
product that was never delivered (that seller never responded, so I got
eBay to refund), once for the wrong product (that seller simply refunded
without requiring me to ship back), and once because the product was
defective (that seller didn't require me to ship back the defective one
for which I gave him pics of the damage and sent a new good one).

You have to know what you're buying at eBay (or Amazon or Newegg or any
etailer, especially those that operate frontend stores for sellers other
than the entity whose web site you originally visit). I've seen
counterfeit CR2032 batteries sold at eBay. You can tell by the missing
bubble packaging features and mismatched markings but you have to
research what the legit packaging looks like. When the price is
exceptionally cheap, you have to be exceptionally careful. There are
some good sales there but way too many scammers, and eBay isn't robust
in proactively policing their site (mostly they are reactive to buyer
reports, especially if they have to dole out a refund) since their
imperative is to get a bite of every sale.

The OP said he wants Windows 7. Could be he wants to image his old Win7
host, copy it onto a new host, and update the key to one that he just
purchased. For 14 GBP, he isn't risking much to find out if the key is
good.

http://softwaregeeks.co.uk is registered through GoDaddy. Yet GoDaddy's
WhoIs does NOT list the domain registrant. Doesn't seem to be a private
domain registration (where the registrar usurps IANA's requirement the
domain registrant be identified by listing GoDaddy as the registrant).
Just no info in the domain registration as to who is the registrant.
Seems iffy to me. If an etail is handing monetary transaction, they had
damn well be identified by their domain registration. Look at the WhoIs
for newegg.com and you get plenty of real data on the domain registrant.

Could be the site is dumping their backstock of old Windows versions
hence the low price versus some sites charging a premium, like full
price, or higher, for old software they've had to shelve for many years.
If you look at the site's ad for Windows 7 (using the URL that the OP
gave), notice what they say is the SKU number: Win7ProCOA. Is that a
valid SKU number? Why would a site feel the need to disable mouse
scrolling forcing the visitor to use the scrollbar or page/arrow keys?

Using the London street address the sites gives for their location, I
could find anything on the buildings using Google Maps that noted their
presence. Looks like an office complex and they're buried inside; i.e.,
the only way to find them is to go inside and read a directory placard.
From a few samples of "products" sold at their site, all they are
selling are license keys that are sent via e-mail (that have URLs to a
Microsoft download site). In their About Us web page, they say "All of
our software is available via instant digital download.". Well, don't
need much of an office to process electronics orders and send e-mails
with strings in them for keys. Their physical presence could be the
equivalent of a 1-cubicle office with a desk, one computer, and Internet
access. They aren't selling any physical products, just text strings
(aka digital goods). They operate a digital storefront. Anyone can get
those setup for cheap.
Rene Lamontagne
2018-07-11 19:11:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by VanguardLH
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Ed Cryer
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers
sell "Bad" copies of 7.
i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime
later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly
committing suicide until you supply a valid key.
Been there, done that.
Me, too. Bought Office 2013 from an eBay seller. The key worked (got
the ISO from Microsoft). About a month later, I noticed eBay had
refunded the purchase. I didn't ask them for that. The key worked for
about 3 years at which time I found out why eBay refunded me. It was a
sliced key out of a volume license and Microsoft had invalidated the
license when they discovered the pirate. The seller disappeared from
eBay (probably started a new identity there). Windows updates had no
problem.
It was when I did a fresh install of the OS and then tried to install
Office 2013 that the key got rejected. I don't remember how but that's
when I checked the key against someplace at Microsoft to find out it was
one seat from a volume license (all seats are to remain within the
custody of the organization that got the volume license). Oh well, time
to upgrade to Office 365 (but I spent a couple months trialing
alternatives before deciding to get Office again).
I got 3 1-year subscriptions to run consecutively from another eBay
seller who I required send me the keys via e-mail (instead of wait for
the license cards by postal mail) immediately after my eBay purchase was
authorized, tested them (and that I got 3 years of subscription), and
checked with Microsoft that they were good. I did not want to wait for
the license cards to arrive in the mail before I could check they
worked.
I have used the Buyer Protection at eBay about 3 times: once for a
product that was never delivered (that seller never responded, so I got
eBay to refund), once for the wrong product (that seller simply refunded
without requiring me to ship back), and once because the product was
defective (that seller didn't require me to ship back the defective one
for which I gave him pics of the damage and sent a new good one).
You have to know what you're buying at eBay (or Amazon or Newegg or any
etailer, especially those that operate frontend stores for sellers other
than the entity whose web site you originally visit). I've seen
counterfeit CR2032 batteries sold at eBay. You can tell by the missing
bubble packaging features and mismatched markings but you have to
research what the legit packaging looks like. When the price is
exceptionally cheap, you have to be exceptionally careful. There are
some good sales there but way too many scammers, and eBay isn't robust
in proactively policing their site (mostly they are reactive to buyer
reports, especially if they have to dole out a refund) since their
imperative is to get a bite of every sale.
The OP said he wants Windows 7. Could be he wants to image his old Win7
host, copy it onto a new host, and update the key to one that he just
purchased. For 14 GBP, he isn't risking much to find out if the key is
good.
http://softwaregeeks.co.uk is registered through GoDaddy. Yet GoDaddy's
WhoIs does NOT list the domain registrant. Doesn't seem to be a private
domain registration (where the registrar usurps IANA's requirement the
domain registrant be identified by listing GoDaddy as the registrant).
Just no info in the domain registration as to who is the registrant.
Seems iffy to me. If an etail is handing monetary transaction, they had
damn well be identified by their domain registration. Look at the WhoIs
for newegg.com and you get plenty of real data on the domain registrant.
Could be the site is dumping their backstock of old Windows versions
hence the low price versus some sites charging a premium, like full
price, or higher, for old software they've had to shelve for many years.
If you look at the site's ad for Windows 7 (using the URL that the OP
gave), notice what they say is the SKU number: Win7ProCOA. Is that a
valid SKU number? Why would a site feel the need to disable mouse
scrolling forcing the visitor to use the scrollbar or page/arrow keys?
Using the London street address the sites gives for their location, I
could find anything on the buildings using Google Maps that noted their
presence. Looks like an office complex and they're buried inside; i.e.,
the only way to find them is to go inside and read a directory placard.
From a few samples of "products" sold at their site, all they are
selling are license keys that are sent via e-mail (that have URLs to a
Microsoft download site). In their About Us web page, they say "All of
our software is available via instant digital download.". Well, don't
need much of an office to process electronics orders and send e-mails
with strings in them for keys. Their physical presence could be the
equivalent of a 1-cubicle office with a desk, one computer, and Internet
access. They aren't selling any physical products, just text strings
(aka digital goods). They operate a digital storefront. Anyone can get
those setup for cheap.
I wouldn't piss on Ebay if it was on fire!

Rene
VanguardLH
2018-07-11 23:00:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Rene Lamontagne
Post by VanguardLH
Post by (PeteCresswell)
Post by Ed Cryer
I want Win7! I want Win7!
This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP.
https://goo.gl/rBddg4
No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers
sell "Bad" copies of 7.
i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime
later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly
committing suicide until you supply a valid key.
Been there, done that.
Me, too. Bought Office 2013 from an eBay seller. The key worked (got
the ISO from Microsoft). About a month later, I noticed eBay had
refunded the purchase. I didn't ask them for that. The key worked for
about 3 years at which time I found out why eBay refunded me. It was a
sliced key out of a volume license and Microsoft had invalidated the
license when they discovered the pirate. The seller disappeared from
eBay (probably started a new identity there). Windows updates had no
problem.
It was when I did a fresh install of the OS and then tried to install
Office 2013 that the key got rejected. I don't remember how but that's
when I checked the key against someplace at Microsoft to find out it was
one seat from a volume license (all seats are to remain within the
custody of the organization that got the volume license). Oh well, time
to upgrade to Office 365 (but I spent a couple months trialing
alternatives before deciding to get Office again).
I got 3 1-year subscriptions to run consecutively from another eBay
seller who I required send me the keys via e-mail (instead of wait for
the license cards by postal mail) immediately after my eBay purchase was
authorized, tested them (and that I got 3 years of subscription), and
checked with Microsoft that they were good. I did not want to wait for
the license cards to arrive in the mail before I could check they
worked.
I have used the Buyer Protection at eBay about 3 times: once for a
product that was never delivered (that seller never responded, so I got
eBay to refund), once for the wrong product (that seller simply refunded
without requiring me to ship back), and once because the product was
defective (that seller didn't require me to ship back the defective one
for which I gave him pics of the damage and sent a new good one).
You have to know what you're buying at eBay (or Amazon or Newegg or any
etailer, especially those that operate frontend stores for sellers other
than the entity whose web site you originally visit). I've seen
counterfeit CR2032 batteries sold at eBay. You can tell by the missing
bubble packaging features and mismatched markings but you have to
research what the legit packaging looks like. When the price is
exceptionally cheap, you have to be exceptionally careful. There are
some good sales there but way too many scammers, and eBay isn't robust
in proactively policing their site (mostly they are reactive to buyer
reports, especially if they have to dole out a refund) since their
imperative is to get a bite of every sale.
The OP said he wants Windows 7. Could be he wants to image his old Win7
host, copy it onto a new host, and update the key to one that he just
purchased. For 14 GBP, he isn't risking much to find out if the key is
good.
http://softwaregeeks.co.uk is registered through GoDaddy. Yet GoDaddy's
WhoIs does NOT list the domain registrant. Doesn't seem to be a private
domain registration (where the registrar usurps IANA's requirement the
domain registrant be identified by listing GoDaddy as the registrant).
Just no info in the domain registration as to who is the registrant.
Seems iffy to me. If an etail is handing monetary transaction, they had
damn well be identified by their domain registration. Look at the WhoIs
for newegg.com and you get plenty of real data on the domain registrant.
Could be the site is dumping their backstock of old Windows versions
hence the low price versus some sites charging a premium, like full
price, or higher, for old software they've had to shelve for many years.
If you look at the site's ad for Windows 7 (using the URL that the OP
gave), notice what they say is the SKU number: Win7ProCOA. Is that a
valid SKU number? Why would a site feel the need to disable mouse
scrolling forcing the visitor to use the scrollbar or page/arrow keys?
Using the London street address the sites gives for their location, I
could find anything on the buildings using Google Maps that noted their
presence. Looks like an office complex and they're buried inside; i.e.,
the only way to find them is to go inside and read a directory placard.
From a few samples of "products" sold at their site, all they are
selling are license keys that are sent via e-mail (that have URLs to a
Microsoft download site). In their About Us web page, they say "All of
our software is available via instant digital download.". Well, don't
need much of an office to process electronics orders and send e-mails
with strings in them for keys. Their physical presence could be the
equivalent of a 1-cubicle office with a desk, one computer, and Internet
access. They aren't selling any physical products, just text strings
(aka digital goods). They operate a digital storefront. Anyone can get
those setup for cheap.
I wouldn't piss on Ebay if it was on fire!
Rene
The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported
problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself). Every
site has bad reports. Hell, if you go by user posts in forums and here,
every software is shit. That's because users don't post about the
virtues and extol the wonder of the software but only post to report
problems, so obviously that crowd will be skewed in perspective.

Doesn't have to be online, either. Users report problems at car shops,
department stores, gas stations, yadda yadda.
m***@invalid.com
2018-07-12 02:24:54 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported
problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself). Every
site has bad reports. Hell, if you go by user posts in forums and here,
every software is shit. That's because users don't post about the
virtues and extol the wonder of the software but only post to report
problems, so obviously that crowd will be skewed in perspective.
Doesn't have to be online, either. Users report problems at car shops,
department stores, gas stations, yadda yadda.
I dealt with ebay one time and got screwed not just by the seller but
ebay themselves. It was ebay's attitude more than the screwing over
by the seller which convinced me to *never* again deal with them.

I have dealt with Amazon for many years and have *never* had a problem
that Amazon did not correct.

To say such nonsense that *all* businesses can give one a problem is
hyper reaching for an example. Ebay give loads of people problems.
As far as I'm concerned, they are crooks. They support the thieves
over the honest customer.
Rene Lamontagne
2018-07-12 02:39:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by m***@invalid.com
Post by VanguardLH
The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported
problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself). Every
site has bad reports. Hell, if you go by user posts in forums and here,
every software is shit. That's because users don't post about the
virtues and extol the wonder of the software but only post to report
problems, so obviously that crowd will be skewed in perspective.
Doesn't have to be online, either. Users report problems at car shops,
department stores, gas stations, yadda yadda.
I dealt with ebay one time and got screwed not just by the seller but
ebay themselves. It was ebay's attitude more than the screwing over
by the seller which convinced me to *never* again deal with them.
I have dealt with Amazon for many years and have *never* had a problem
that Amazon did not correct.
To say such nonsense that *all* businesses can give one a problem is
hyper reaching for an example. Ebay give loads of people problems.
As far as I'm concerned, they are crooks. They support the thieves
over the honest customer.
I have never had a problem with Amazon, And I order stuff quite often as
I do not drive so its much easier using Amazon Prime.

Rene
Mayayana
2018-07-12 03:01:42 UTC
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<***@invalid.com> wrote

| >The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported
| >problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
| >storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
| >visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself).

Another problem is that things change a lot. Tom's
toothpaste used to be made by Tom. Now it's
made by Colgate. Likewise, Ben and Jerry's was bought
out. The amazingly good Smart Food popcorn was
bought by Frito-Lay and that was the end of amazingly
good. (I read that all but one of the "idealists" who
started Smart Food agreed to sell out.)
American cars are made in Haiti while Japanese cars
are made in the US, perhaps with Chinese parts.

Since companies, names and trademarks can be sold,
it's hard to depend on reputations.

I used to buy all computer parts from TigerDirect. I
loved them. Then they sold out to PCMall and my last
order was just like Amazon: TG was just middlemanning.
Each part came from a different dealer, with the result
that I had to track 6-8 packages instead of 1. If Acme
in Ohio is going to sell me a motherboard, then why not
just cut out the TG middleman and buy direct from
Acme? Isn't that the kind of thing the Internet is
supposed to be good for?

Similarly, I used to buy all software from
Buycheapsoftware.com. I bought Visual Studio 6 from
them. I bought several Windows disks to build computers
for friends. I bought Linux disks.... Now they're gone.

I don't know what I'll do next time I decide to build
a computer. I prefer not to deal with Amazon, out of
principle and have never actually bought anything from
them.

Lately I've been trying to avoid Whole Foods
as I get a taste of how Amazon works. TheAmazon
takeover of WF started out with an advertising blitz
about how amazon would usher in cheaper prices.
A few prices were a little cheaper for awhile. Then
that ended. For instance, organic raisins had been
$4.29/#. Amazon put the price down and added a little
sign about how WF + Amazon will save money. That
lasted a couple of months. Now the same raisins are
back to the old price, with a sign that says,
"Everyday Low Price!".

Today I stocked up on fruit from Star
Market, which was selling the same stuff for an average
of half what WF is charging! The only reasonable prices
now are a few sale items that only Prime members can
buy. One example of WF price gouging: Eastern peaches
from the exact same distributor at both stores.
WF: $3.49/#. Star: $1.59/#.

WF grapes from Mexico: $5-6/#. Star organic grapes from
California: $3.49/#.

It's nuts. The WF prices under Amazon jump all over,
clearly with no relation to their costs.

People might like the temporary good deals at Amazon,
but it's a deal with the devil. The more they take over,
the worse it will get. Last I heard, they're still losing money
on sales. They make their profit from web services. They're
not going to keep losing money. Once they establish a
monopoly, Amazon will start milking the suckers who though
they were a great deal.

.... And that's not even getting into their maltreatment of
employees. If people don't hold these companies accountable
then they won't be accountable.
Boris
2018-07-12 18:07:58 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mayayana
| >The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported
| >problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
| >storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
| >visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself).
Another problem is that things change a lot. Tom's
toothpaste used to be made by Tom. Now it's
made by Colgate. Likewise, Ben and Jerry's was bought
out. The amazingly good Smart Food popcorn was
bought by Frito-Lay and that was the end of amazingly
good. (I read that all but one of the "idealists" who
started Smart Food agreed to sell out.)
American cars are made in Haiti while Japanese cars
are made in the US, perhaps with Chinese parts.
Since companies, names and trademarks can be sold,
it's hard to depend on reputations.
I used to buy all computer parts from TigerDirect. I
loved them. Then they sold out to PCMall and my last
order was just like Amazon: TG was just middlemanning.
Each part came from a different dealer, with the result
that I had to track 6-8 packages instead of 1. If Acme
in Ohio is going to sell me a motherboard, then why not
just cut out the TG middleman and buy direct from
Acme? Isn't that the kind of thing the Internet is
supposed to be good for?
Similarly, I used to buy all software from
Buycheapsoftware.com. I bought Visual Studio 6 from
them. I bought several Windows disks to build computers
for friends. I bought Linux disks.... Now they're gone.
I don't know what I'll do next time I decide to build
a computer. I prefer not to deal with Amazon, out of
principle and have never actually bought anything from
them.
Lately I've been trying to avoid Whole Foods
as I get a taste of how Amazon works. TheAmazon
takeover of WF started out with an advertising blitz
about how amazon would usher in cheaper prices.
A few prices were a little cheaper for awhile. Then
that ended. For instance, organic raisins had been
$4.29/#. Amazon put the price down and added a little
sign about how WF + Amazon will save money. That
lasted a couple of months. Now the same raisins are
back to the old price, with a sign that says,
"Everyday Low Price!".
Today I stocked up on fruit from Star
Market, which was selling the same stuff for an average
of half what WF is charging! The only reasonable prices
now are a few sale items that only Prime members can
buy. One example of WF price gouging: Eastern peaches
from the exact same distributor at both stores.
WF: $3.49/#. Star: $1.59/#.
WF grapes from Mexico: $5-6/#. Star organic grapes from
California: $3.49/#.
It's nuts. The WF prices under Amazon jump all over,
clearly with no relation to their costs.
People might like the temporary good deals at Amazon,
but it's a deal with the devil. The more they take over,
the worse it will get. Last I heard, they're still losing money
on sales. They make their profit from web services. They're
not going to keep losing money. Once they establish a
monopoly, Amazon will start milking the suckers who though
they were a great deal.
.... And that's not even getting into their maltreatment of
employees. If people don't hold these companies accountable
then they won't be accountable.
Guess I'll take this thread even more astray.

Speaking of fruits, I remember when they actually tasted like what they
were supposed to taste like. Now, no matter where I buy my produce, at
the chain grocery store, a snooty 'high end' market, or even at the no
GMO/no pesticides/blah blah blah farmer's markets that set up on main
street every weekend. there's just no taste anymore. What's happened?

The best tasting fruit I've had is when I've picked wild road-side
blackberries, home grown citrus and apples, and homegrown tomatoes picked
and eaten directy off the vine with a salt and pepper shaker. Always best
at room temperature.

mechanic
2018-07-12 10:40:05 UTC
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Post by m***@invalid.com
To say such nonsense that *all* businesses can give one a problem
is hyper reaching for an example. Ebay give loads of people
problems. As far as I'm concerned, they are crooks. They support
the thieves over the honest customer.
nonsense. They tend to take the customer's side, much to the
annoyance of some sellers.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-07-12 11:10:48 UTC
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Post by m***@invalid.com
Post by VanguardLH
The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported
problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself). Every
Amazon certainly have sold things themselves in the past; not only right
at the beginning when they started as a bookseller, but more recently I
have still seen things "provided by Amazon something" on them (might
have been a year or two ago though). But you are right, they're _mostly_
at least just an alternative to ebay. (IME more limited selection and
not as good price, though the latter isn't always the case; they also
have reviews - how trustworthy is up to you to decide, but at least
they're there, and sometimes they answer a question you might have -
which mostly ebay don't, for items rather than sellers anyway.)
[]
Post by m***@invalid.com
I dealt with ebay one time and got screwed not just by the seller but
ebay themselves. It was ebay's attitude more than the screwing over
by the seller which convinced me to *never* again deal with them.
[]
Post by m***@invalid.com
To say such nonsense that *all* businesses can give one a problem is
hyper reaching for an example. Ebay give loads of people problems.
As far as I'm concerned, they are crooks. They support the thieves
over the honest customer.
My recent experience with ebay has been extremely positive: where
problems have arisen I've generally received refunds, in at least one
case extremely rapidly, and in several cases with the seller not wanting
the goods back. I guess we're all going to have had different
experiences. It _might_ be that of late I've tended to only buy from UK
suppliers and am maybe better protected by our legislation, though the
few cases where I _have_ bought direct from China things have been fine,
just slow (though not any slower than promised).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The war was over, but all those people were still dead - explainer why the
atmosphere of VE-day did not seem right to her; "Today" 2015-4-27
Java Jive
2018-07-12 11:38:57 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
My recent experience with ebay has been extremely positive: where
problems have arisen I've generally received refunds, in at least one
case extremely rapidly, and in several cases with the seller not wanting
the goods back.
Yes, despite having the goods twice, once as an order, the second as a
replacement when the original didn't work, and the replacement didn't
work either. I've got the items, though useless to me, and I got my
money back.
Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
though the
few cases where I _have_ bought direct from China things have been fine,
just slow (though not any slower than promised).
The items above were from China. With another item originating from
China but being sold in the UK, the supplier decided it was faulty or
substandard before dispatching it, and emailed me to ask if I was
prepared to wait a while for a replacement, to which I agreed. When the
replacement stock arrived, it too was faulty or substandard, so at that
point I cancelled the order, and obtained the item from the next
cheapest supplier. Despite my asking the question directly, it was
never explained what was wrong with the original supplier's stock, but
my guess is the UK mains lead was not fused, because that's how the unit
from the second supplier came - no matter, I've been working with PCs
for decades, and have spare kettle leads coming out of my ears.
Ron C
2018-07-12 15:52:32 UTC
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Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Post by m***@invalid.com
The same could be said about any online site.  Users have reported
problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate
storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you
visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself).  Every
Amazon certainly have sold things themselves in the past; not only right
at the beginning when they started as a bookseller, but more recently I
have still seen things "provided by Amazon something" on them (might
have been a year or two ago though). But you are right, they're _mostly_
at least just an alternative to ebay. (IME more limited selection and
not as good price, though the latter isn't always the case; they also
have reviews - how trustworthy is up to you to decide, but at least
they're there, and sometimes they answer a question you might have -
which mostly ebay don't, for items rather than sellers anyway.)
[]
Post by m***@invalid.com
I dealt with ebay one time and got screwed not just by the seller but
ebay themselves.  It was ebay's attitude more than the screwing over
by the seller which convinced me to *never*  again deal with them.
[]
Post by m***@invalid.com
To say such nonsense that *all* businesses can give one a problem is
hyper reaching for an example.  Ebay give loads of people problems.
As far as I'm concerned, they are crooks. They support the thieves
over the honest customer.
My recent experience with ebay has been extremely positive: where
problems have arisen I've generally received refunds, in at least one
case extremely rapidly, and in several cases with the seller not wanting
the goods back. I guess we're all going to have had different
experiences. It _might_ be that of late I've tended to only buy from UK
suppliers and am maybe better protected by our legislation, though the
few cases where I _have_ bought direct from China things have been fine,
just slow (though not any slower than promised).
I've never had any dealings with e-bay so can't comment on them.
As for Amazon not selling anything of their own, I just got a new
paper shredder and it seems to be an Amazon product .. the logo
on the unit and the instruction sheet say AmazonBasics.

Do a little googling and you'll find that Amazon launched their
Private-Label
'AmazonBasics' Brand several years ago.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--
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