Discussion:
OT - Remote control of car
(too old to reply)
pjp
2018-03-06 19:46:38 UTC
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I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.

Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
Zaidy036
2018-03-06 20:53:11 UTC
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Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on a map to
tell police where it is.

Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
--
Zaidy036
pjp
2018-03-07 02:15:55 UTC
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Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on a map to
tell police where it is.
Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
I know what it is and what it does. Just for me I can't imagine ever
buying a car with this feature. Anyone can start or stop my vehicle is
almost surely to happen. I can easily imagine assholes stopping car,
locking doors and windows and watch while someone panics etc.

In fact I don't want any car that can be "upgraded" or for that matter
controlled in any way "over the air".

When I push a button and wait for a self driving vehicle to come into my
driveway I won't care about how it communicates with the outside world
but while it's "mine" I won't allow any 3rd party control over it.
Wolf K
2018-03-07 03:46:06 UTC
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Post by pjp
Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on a map to
tell police where it is.
Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
I know what it is and what it does. Just for me I can't imagine ever
buying a car with this feature. Anyone can start or stop my vehicle is
almost surely to happen. I can easily imagine assholes stopping car,
locking doors and windows and watch while someone panics etc.
In fact I don't want any car that can be "upgraded" or for that matter
controlled in any way "over the air".
When I push a button and wait for a self driving vehicle to come into my
driveway I won't care about how it communicates with the outside world
but while it's "mine" I won't allow any 3rd party control over it.
+1
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
Zaidy036
2018-03-07 07:33:10 UTC
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Post by pjp
Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on a map to
tell police where it is.
Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
I know what it is and what it does. Just for me I can't imagine ever
buying a car with this feature. Anyone can start or stop my vehicle is
almost surely to happen. I can easily imagine assholes stopping car,
locking doors and windows and watch while someone panics etc.
In fact I don't want any car that can be "upgraded" or for that matter
controlled in any way "over the air".
When I push a button and wait for a self driving vehicle to come into my
driveway I won't care about how it communicates with the outside world
but while it's "mine" I won't allow any 3rd party control over it.
+1
It is interesting to read in these newsgroups about people’s worries but
consider that there are millions of GM cars out there and I have never
heard of one being hijacked in that way. The GM On-Star system works as
advertised and gives me an insurance deduction and help is available at the
push of a button. In fact if I have an accident and do not reply to a voice
message from them they will automatically send help to my location.

Have you ever heard of any car being hijacked remotely? And I am not
talking about the man-in-the-middle key fob lock/unlock problem.
--
Zaidy036
Wolf K
2018-03-07 14:55:34 UTC
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Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on a map to
tell police where it is.
Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
I know what it is and what it does. Just for me I can't imagine ever
buying a car with this feature. Anyone can start or stop my vehicle is
almost surely to happen. I can easily imagine assholes stopping car,
locking doors and windows and watch while someone panics etc.
In fact I don't want any car that can be "upgraded" or for that matter
controlled in any way "over the air".
When I push a button and wait for a self driving vehicle to come into my
driveway I won't care about how it communicates with the outside world
but while it's "mine" I won't allow any 3rd party control over it.
+1
It is interesting to read in these newsgroups about people’s worries but
consider that there are millions of GM cars out there and I have never
heard of one being hijacked in that way. The GM On-Star system works as
advertised and gives me an insurance deduction and help is available at the
push of a button. In fact if I have an accident and do not reply to a voice
message from them they will automatically send help to my location.
Have you ever heard of any car being hijacked remotely? And I am not
talking about the man-in-the-middle key fob lock/unlock problem.
The risk of being hacked is low, but it's real. IMO, the risk will
increase, not decrease, in future.

Here's one hit for "hijacking of onstar". It's about 3 years old, at
that time onstar-equipped cars were still a rather small minority. I
guess GM considered that reduced the risk.

https://www.wired.com/2015/09/gm-took-5-years-fix-full-takeover-hack-millions-onstar-cars/

Basic principle: anything connected wirelessly to anything can be
hacked. Only question: Is it worth the effort? Eg, hacking your fridge
is unlikely to be profitable. Hacking an autonomous truck could pay off
more than a bank heist, and be much safer for the perps as well. Your
car falls somewhere in between those extremes.

Have a good day,

PS: Onstar always knows where you are. _That_ would make a hack into
Onstar very prpofitable.
--
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
"The next conference for the time travel design team will be held two
weeks ago."
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-03-07 14:54:22 UTC
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Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on a map to
tell police where it is.
Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
I know what it is and what it does. Just for me I can't imagine ever
buying a car with this feature. Anyone can start or stop my vehicle is
almost surely to happen. I can easily imagine assholes stopping car,
locking doors and windows and watch while someone panics etc.
In fact I don't want any car that can be "upgraded" or for that matter
controlled in any way "over the air".
When I push a button and wait for a self driving vehicle to come into my
driveway I won't care about how it communicates with the outside world
but while it's "mine" I won't allow any 3rd party control over it.
+1
It is interesting to read in these newsgroups about people’s worries but
consider that there are millions of GM cars out there and I have never
heard of one being hijacked in that way. The GM On-Star system works as
Has the remote stop-start facility reached the millions mark yet though?
Post by Zaidy036
advertised and gives me an insurance deduction and help is available at the
push of a button. In fact if I have an accident and do not reply to a voice
message from them they will automatically send help to my location.
AIUI, though, the only thing that can be remotely done with OnStar - if
that - is to turn on the OnStar box, so that the vehicle can be
tracked/found; I don't think it can be stopped, can it?
Post by Zaidy036
Have you ever heard of any car being hijacked remotely? And I am not
talking about the man-in-the-middle key fob lock/unlock problem.
Can keyfob remote unlocking be disabled? I suppose disconnecting the
aerial of the in-car part, or removing power from the receiver
altogether (if a separate entity), would do it, but that would also
disable the "find car in car park" function, which is useful.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You _are_ Zaphod Beeblebrox? _The_ Zaphod Beeblebrox?"
"No, just _a_ Zaphod Beeblebrox. I come in six-packs." (from the link episode)
Diesel
2018-05-18 05:01:47 UTC
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Post by pjp
Post by Zaidy036
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible
to start and stop your engine using your smart phone from
anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
It is stolen so you can immobilize it. It is also locatable on
a map to tell police where it is.
Offered in GM cars, Buick anyways.
I know what it is and what it does. Just for me I can't imagine
ever buying a car with this feature. Anyone can start or stop my
vehicle is almost surely to happen. I can easily imagine
assholes stopping car, locking doors and windows and watch while
someone panics etc.
In fact I don't want any car that can be "upgraded" or for that
matter controlled in any way "over the air".
When I push a button and wait for a self driving vehicle to come
into my driveway I won't care about how it communicates with the
outside world but while it's "mine" I won't allow any 3rd party
control over it.
+1
It is interesting to read in these newsgroups about people’s
worries but consider that there are millions of GM cars out there
and I have never heard of one being hijacked in that way. The GM
On-Star system works as advertised and gives me an insurance
deduction and help is available at the push of a button. In fact
if I have an accident and do not reply to a voice message from
them they will automatically send help to my location.
Have you ever heard of any car being hijacked remotely? And I am
not talking about the man-in-the-middle key fob lock/unlock
problem.
Not only have I heard of it, I've participated in a ride along under
controlled conditions. We remotely hax0red (wireless no less) the
jeep's engine and driving control systems, and ordered it to the
side of the road, without the drivers consent. The jeep complied.
Not only were we able to control it's driving, braking and engine,
we were able to override any commands the driver of the vehicle was
sending it via the steering wheel and the pedals. We weren't the
only ones able to do this either, another group brought along
reporters and filmed their experiment.

And this is one of the pitfalls of drive by wire systems being
implemented on your cars and trucks. You aren't in control, the
computer is. You're *asking* it to turn the wheel, apply the brakes,
increase fuel, etc. But you have no actual physical control over any
of those processes as you do on older vehicles. It's all controlled
by servo's now; which is under the control of the main computer
system; which can be exploited so that while your the driver, you
aren't the one driving.


https://www.wired.com/2016/08/jeep-hackers-return-high-speed-steering-acceleration-hacks/

https://it.slashdot.org/story/18/04/30/2141245/volkswagen-audi-cars-vulnerable-to-remote-hacking
--
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stalking, it's highly recommended you visit here:
https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php
===================================================
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Mark Lloyd
2018-05-18 14:21:34 UTC
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On 05/18/2018 12:01 AM, Diesel wrote:

[snip]
Post by Diesel
And this is one of the pitfalls of drive by wire systems being
implemented on your cars and trucks. You aren't in control, the
computer is. You're *asking* it to turn the wheel, apply the brakes,
increase fuel, etc. But you have no actual physical control over any
of those processes as you do on older vehicles. It's all controlled
by servo's now; which is under the control of the main computer
system; which can be exploited so that while your the driver, you
aren't the one driving.
[snip]

The same with computer GUIs. YOU aren't doing something, but informing
the computer of what you want.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"We created god in our own image and likeness!" -- George Carlin
NY
2018-05-18 14:49:47 UTC
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Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]
Post by Diesel
And this is one of the pitfalls of drive by wire systems being
implemented on your cars and trucks. You aren't in control, the
computer is. You're *asking* it to turn the wheel, apply the brakes,
increase fuel, etc. But you have no actual physical control over any
of those processes as you do on older vehicles. It's all controlled
by servo's now; which is under the control of the main computer
system; which can be exploited so that while your the driver, you
aren't the one driving.
Also you are at the mercy of the integrity of the sensors. I had an 1993
Golf Mark III - the first car I'd had with fuel injection, drive-by-wire and
an engine management unit. After it was about 6 months old developed an
intermittent fault which caused the engine to die just as I'd started to
accelerate out of a junction into traffic - which was more than a little
terrifying when it happened.

It was in the garage on several occasions while they tried to reproduce the
problem and then fix it. Each time it came back "cannot reproduce". One day
I got a phone call from an ecstatic technician - "I've found it and I've
fixed it". It turned out to be a worn throttle potentiometer which sensed
the position of the pedal so the ECU could ask for the required amount of
fuel from the injectors: the track was dirty and cracked. The part cost
about tuppence and the labour for all the hours of searching was horrendous.
Luckily I could produce an invoice from a couple of thousand miles earlier
which described a fruitless search for the cause, and this was invaluable in
claiming off the warranty, because after first reporting the fault, the car
had exceeded its manufacturer's warranty. With rather bad grace, the garage
and VW head office decided that faced with incontrovertible evidence that
the car had been in warranty when the fault was first reported, they had to
pay up.
Big Al
2018-05-18 15:56:47 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by Mark Lloyd
[snip]
Post by Diesel
And this is one of the pitfalls of drive by wire systems being
implemented on your cars and trucks. You aren't in control, the
computer is. You're *asking* it to turn the wheel, apply the brakes,
increase fuel, etc. But you have no actual physical control over any
of those processes as you do on older vehicles. It's all controlled
by servo's now; which is under the control of the main computer
system; which can be exploited so that while your the driver, you
aren't the one driving.
Also you are at the mercy of the integrity of the sensors. I had an 1993
Golf Mark III - the first car I'd had with fuel injection, drive-by-wire
and an engine management unit. After it was about 6 months old developed
an intermittent fault which caused the engine to die just as I'd started
to accelerate out of a junction into traffic - which was more than a
little terrifying when it happened.
It was in the garage on several occasions while they tried to reproduce
the problem and then fix it. Each time it came back "cannot reproduce".
One day I got a phone call from an ecstatic technician - "I've found it
and I've fixed it". It turned out to be a worn throttle potentiometer
which sensed the position of the pedal so the ECU could ask for the
required amount of fuel from the injectors: the track was dirty and
cracked. The part cost about tuppence and the labour for all the hours
of searching was horrendous. Luckily I could produce an invoice from a
couple of thousand miles earlier which described a fruitless search for
the cause, and this was invaluable in claiming off the warranty, because
after first reporting the fault, the car had exceeded its manufacturer's
warranty. With rather bad grace, the garage and VW head office decided
that faced with incontrovertible evidence that the car had been in
warranty when the fault was first reported, they had to pay up.
Aren't you lucky!
NY
2018-05-18 16:03:57 UTC
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Post by Big Al
Post by NY
Also you are at the mercy of the integrity of the sensors. I had an 1993
Golf Mark III - the first car I'd had with fuel injection, drive-by-wire
and an engine management unit. After it was about 6 months old developed
an intermittent fault which caused the engine to die just as I'd started
to accelerate out of a junction into traffic - which was more than a
little terrifying when it happened.
It was in the garage on several occasions while they tried to reproduce
the problem and then fix it. Each time it came back "cannot reproduce".
One day I got a phone call from an ecstatic technician - "I've found it
and I've fixed it". It turned out to be a worn throttle potentiometer
which sensed the position of the pedal so the ECU could ask for the
required amount of fuel from the injectors: the track was dirty and
cracked. The part cost about tuppence and the labour for all the hours of
searching was horrendous. Luckily I could produce an invoice from a
couple of thousand miles earlier which described a fruitless search for
the cause, and this was invaluable in claiming off the warranty, because
after first reporting the fault, the car had exceeded its manufacturer's
warranty. With rather bad grace, the garage and VW head office decided
that faced with incontrovertible evidence that the car had been in
warranty when the fault was first reported, they had to pay up.
Aren't you lucky!
I was. I think I was within the mileage limit by something like 50 miles
when I first reported the problem and the garage first investigated it.

I wasn't so lucky when a wiring loom burnt out. Halfords who had fitted an
alarm denied responsibility and VW blamed Halfords. I needed the car so I
just had to pay up. If I was getting an alarm fitted now I'd get a main
dealer to do it, to keep everything "in house" so there's no demarcation
dispute and finding that neither side will accept responsibility.
Mayayana
2018-05-18 15:04:38 UTC
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"Mark Lloyd" <***@mail.invalid> wrote

| The same with computer GUIs. YOU aren't doing something, but informing
| the computer of what you want.
|

I don't get the point or the connection there.
In an older car, when you steer or press the brake,
it's a physical operation. When you step on the
accelerator it physically pumps gas into a carburetor.
You have physical control over the operation. With
a newer car you don't. Maybe you're too young to
have ever had to work directly with a carburetor?
There's no software. There's a cable. There's no
fuel injection. The spark is not computer-controlled.
It's sent by a spinning contact inside a distributor
cap, which is driven by the crankshaft. It's all
mechanical.

A computerized car is very different.
Not only is there the risk of remote hacking or
software failure. In the event of something
like a massive solar flare that fries electronics, the
older car will probably keep running. The newer car
will be ruined and unusable.

There are all sorts of issues involved with software
running cars. Bad updates can happen. The software
can be used as an excuse to ban you from fixing your
own car or allowing your mechanic to use 3rd-party
parts....

None of that has much of anything to do with
using a computer, so I wonder what point you were
trying to make. Would you equate modern vs older
car with computer vs pencil? There's no useful
analogy to be found there.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
2018-05-18 18:21:49 UTC
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Post by Mayayana
| The same with computer GUIs. YOU aren't doing something, but informing
| the computer of what you want.
|
I'm not sure how GUIs are different. Command-line can be just as opaque
(second level).
[]
Post by Mayayana
A computerized car is very different.
Not only is there the risk of remote hacking or
software failure. In the event of something
like a massive solar flare that fries electronics, the
older car will probably keep running. The newer car
will be ruined and unusable.
Indeed. "Law" "enforcement" agencies want us all to have cars they can
zap (or control).
Post by Mayayana
There are all sorts of issues involved with software
running cars. Bad updates can happen. The software
can be used as an excuse to ban you from fixing your
own car or allowing your mechanic to use 3rd-party
parts....
Yes, you get arms race between the hackers and the manufacturers. Not
just for using substitute parts, but tweaking performance and other
parameters. (Then there are the cases when the manufacturers themselves
are bad boys - the Diesel fiasco, for example, though I'm sure that's
just a matter of they happened to get caught - I'm sure the petrol
["gas"] ones are no whiter.)
Post by Mayayana
None of that has much of anything to do with
using a computer, so I wonder what point you were
trying to make. Would you equate modern vs older
car with computer vs pencil? There's no useful
analogy to be found there.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Wisdom is the ability to cope. - the late (AB of C) Michael Ramsey,
quoted by Stephen Fry (RT 24-30 August 2013)
PeterC
2018-03-07 08:27:49 UTC
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Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
Just because something can be done doesn't mean that it's a good thing to
do.
I saw a headline (didn't look at the article) that said just one
'malignant', so-called 'smart' car could be used to cause a lot of those
around it to do naughty things - try that with a 60 yo Land Rover!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway
Doug Chadduck
2018-03-10 04:01:24 UTC
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Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
When it's 20 below outside, starting your car and having the heater
running for 5 or 10 minutes before you have to go out and jump in it, is
a lot more civilized and comfortable than is the alternative.
Same story when it's 105 degrees outside. Start the car and let the AC
run for a few before you even go out. Very handy feature.
pjp
2018-03-10 05:51:25 UTC
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Post by Doug Chadduck
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
When it's 20 below outside, starting your car and having the heater
running for 5 or 10 minutes before you have to go out and jump in it, is
a lot more civilized and comfortable than is the alternative.
Same story when it's 105 degrees outside. Start the car and let the AC
run for a few before you even go out. Very handy feature.
Already available on a keyfob. No need for a phone, geez to me it's just
plain stupid abd fraught with problems for no need.
Paul
2018-03-10 06:53:57 UTC
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Post by pjp
Post by Doug Chadduck
Post by pjp
I can't help but notice the new car ad stating it's possible to start
and stop your engine using your smart phone from anywhere.
Now who in their right mind thinks this is a good thing?
When it's 20 below outside, starting your car and having the heater
running for 5 or 10 minutes before you have to go out and jump in it, is
a lot more civilized and comfortable than is the alternative.
Same story when it's 105 degrees outside. Start the car and let the AC
run for a few before you even go out. Very handy feature.
Already available on a keyfob. No need for a phone, geez to me it's just
plain stupid abd fraught with problems for no need.
There are a lot more fun things you can do.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/disabling-a-cars-brakes-and-speed-by-hacking-its-computers-a-new-how-to/

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/02/senator-car-hacks-that-control-steering-or-steal-driver-data-way-too-easy/

By having a CAN bus that joins everything together (no air gaps),
it's possible to run amok in there.

Paul
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